wifely obligations and priorities???

[catgirl1927]

Does no one else think this is probably a troll?

[Horse]

I just don't see why you would ever want to get married. You don't want kids and you are willing to leave as soon as your wife fails to live up to obligations... What is the point of getting married?

 

I have strong needs too, but personally... I don't want my wife to be obligated to love me and have sex with me. Sex isn't fun for me if it is a chore for her. If there is no passion, I would rather beat off. Sometimes I get frustrated, but that is a reason to figure out what is going wrong and deal with it. Not an excuse to kick her to the curb.

 

I don't consider this approach egalitarian. I consider it pragmatic. If I was willing to bail the first time my wife failed to live up to her "duties," then I would probably be on my fifth marriage right now. Either that or I'd be married to some completely subserviant chick who only has sex with me because she is obedient.

 

I agree that these things are obligations, not choices. If both people don't work on it, the marriage will die. If my wife continued to neglect our marriage, despite my best efforts to work on our relationship, then I would probably bail. The difference is that I would try to put everything I have into making it work, before I quit.

 

What if you lost your job and had a hard time finding a new one? What if you are temporarily depressed or stressed out to the point that it becomes impossible to listen to her jibber jabbering long enough for her to feel emotionally fulfilled?

 

Do you want her to feel it is ok to leave while you are down? Or would you prefer for her to put her needs aside long enough to help you through it?

[Ladyjane14]

Does no one else think this is probably a troll?

 

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say he's probably genuine. Maybe just woefully young, or maybe even part of some sort of religious sect. There really are still people in the world who believe that women are only good enough to fulfill one prescribed role.

 

For those of us raising daughters.... this is actually a pretty good reminder to pay attention to their prospective boyfriends.

I can't even begin to tell you what I'd do if somebody treated my sweet baby girl like that. Like we're educating our daughters just so they can be some man's chattel.... I don't think so!

[Touche]

Sorry, ladies. But you're wrong. Chattel? I don't think so. OP was talking about offering a lot to his prospective wife. And he was expecting a lot in return. Sorry, but I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

Marriage is give and take. It's a partnership. It's not one person only giving to another.

 

As I see it, the OP isn't asking for more from his prospective partner than he's willing to give.

[Trimmer]

As I see it, the OP isn't asking for more from his prospective partner than he's willing to give.

True, for the most part, except "obey" was conspicuous by its absence from his list of obligations. And I get the sense that he may be "rigid" on this point - just a guess...

 

I still say if you can find a woman who can clearly understand and enthusiastically agree to these conditions, more power to you, but think hard about the kids and agree on it all beforehand.

 

And I agree that no child deserves to be brought into the world to a begrudging parent who expects to be revolted by them. It's perfectly OK for you to find someone who would cherish living this life with you and to not to have children. Best of luck.

[HokeyReligions]

Do you already have someone in your life that you are considering marrying? Have you given her your list? What did she say?

 

If not, how are you qualifying your dates?

[Touche]

No. He never said "obey." YOU said obey.

 

As for the children issue, we agree, Trimmer. But you only "sense" the part about obeying. And I'm sorry, but I don't "sense" that at all.

 

All I'm picking up on is the fact that he wants to give certain things and expects certain things in return. Sorry, but I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Ladyjane14]

Sorry, ladies. But you're wrong. Chattel? I don't think so. OP was talking about offering a lot to his prospective wife. And he was expecting a lot in return. Sorry, but I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

C'mon Touche. Is this the kind of relationship that you'd find suitable for your daughter? Is that the kind of father you'd want for your grandbabies?

 

*Respect, obey (as in recognise that I'm the head of the house), love, care, be devoted and fulfill emotionally and sexually.

 

*As far as I'm concerned, my wife's first priority is me, then the kids.

 

*I also told her that witholding sex was not an option. (excluding periods that is).

 

*Also, kids are essentially users who take take take and who then go away when they can, your husband is there always, sacrificing for you, working to support you, and aiming to protect and love you. You OWE him your devotion, and yes to have sex even when its not exactly what you want to do.

 

*I've told my prospective that if I ever though that I would come after the kids in priority with her that I would divorce her before she had time to wipe another snotty face.

 

*I will give 100% to my wife, but if I don't get it back I have no problem dumping her and moving on.

 

*Its true, im revolted by kids... but i dont mind having them, as long as i have a big say in how they are brought up... modern mothers are screwing children up... and I have strict ideas on her priorities in this time...

 

*I see myself as her guardian and maintainer, along with all the other stuff.

 

I don't see what he's "offering" that a smart woman couldn't get for herself. And I think it undermines the genuine love and affection in a long-term relationship when expectations become the order of the day. How can a person give freely of themselves and have their 'gift' received with appreciation when the other person expects it as an obligation or responsibility? That doesn't even make sense to me.

 

When we fulfill our partner's ENs because we WANT to, it's something special. If we're only doing it because we fear the consequences of not doing it... we're no longer exercizing freedom of choice.

[Touche]

C'mon Touche. Is this the kind of relationship that you'd find suitable for your daughter? Is that the kind of father you'd want for your grandbabies?

 

 

 

I don't see what he's "offering" that a smart woman couldn't get for herself. And I think it undermines the genuine love and affection in a long-term relationship when expectations become the order of the day. How can a person give freely of themselves and have their 'gift' received with appreciation when the other person expects it as an obligation or responsibility? That doesn't even make sense to me.

 

When we fulfill our partner's ENs because we WANT to, it's something special. If we're only doing it because we fear the consequences of not doing it... we're no longer exercizing freedom of choice.

 

 

Yes, it IS the kind of relationship I'd find suitable for my daughther.

 

I would hope that she'd WANT to fulfill his EN's, as you put it, just as he fulfills hers.

 

I would hope that they both WANT to fulfill each other's EN's...and not that they fear the consequences.

 

Go back and really read between the lines.

 

If more young couples followed the "rules" the OP set out, there would be less divorce.

 

Read it again.

[Ladyjane14]

I would hope that they both WANT to fulfill each other's EN's...and not that they fear the consequences.

 

Go back and really read between the lines.

 

If more young couples followed the "rules" the OP set out, there would be less divorce.

 

Read it again.

 

I've read it several times, and I still see the choice of fulfilling ENs as being eliminated. It's not a "gift" if it's demanded. It's an expectation. The road to divorce is fraught with them.

 

I've got a great relationship with my husband these days. But it wasn't until we mutually started appreciating the "gifts" that we give each other that it was so. Expectations are just potholes on the road to divorce IMHO.

[Ladyjane14]

Seriously.... are you really raising your daughter to "obey" some guy? She's not supposed to think for herself, or USE the values and education you've provided to her? She's just there to spread her legs when hubby's 'in the mood'? She's not going to mind it if somebody else makes all her decisions for her... or for her kids... all on the basis of the fact that he's got a penis and she doesn't?

[Touche]

I've read it several times, and I still see the choice of fulfilling ENs as being eliminated. It's not a "gift" if it's demanded. It's an expectation. The road to divorce is fraught with them.

 

I've got a great relationship with my husband these days. But it wasn't until we mutually started appreciating the "gifts" that we give each other that it was so. Expectations are just potholes on the road to divorce IMHO.

 

I don't see it the way you do. My husband and I have certain expectations of each other. We've for the most part met them. It works.

 

You say that it wasn't until you and your husband mutually came to appreciate your "gifts" to each other that it started working. That's bull. They're not gifts, LJ. They were mutual expectations. Don't kid yourself. You expected certain things from your husband and he expected certain things from you. Had you not met them, it wouldn't have worked. And of course, same for him.

 

So don't give me this nonsense about "expectations are just potholes on the road to divorce." What a bunch of PC hooey!

 

We, as succesful couple always, ALWAYS expect...EXPECT, certain things from each other.

 

And I'll say this. To put my spin on your last quote: Expectations not met are just potholes on the way to divorce.

[Ladyjane14]

You say that it wasn't until you and your husband mutually came to appreciate your "gifts" to each other that it started working. That's bull.

 

How would YOU know what's "bull" in MY marriage? Your husband might kowtow to your "expectations", but mine damn sure won't. And neither would I.

 

I'm not responding to anything but RESPECT in my relationship. I don't view demands as respect. Neither does he.

[Touche]

How would YOU know what's "bull" in MY marriage? Your husband might kowtow to your "expectations", but mine damn sure won't. And neither would I.

 

I'm not responding to anything but RESPECT in my relationship. I don't view demands as respect. Neither does he.

 

No one said anything about demands. We're talking about expectations here. There's a difference. Don't you see that?

 

My husband doesn't "kowtow" to anything, I assure you. What he and I respond to is mutual respect and mutual expectations. They go hand in hand.

 

Demands don't ever enter into it. Not sure where you got that.

 

You're saying that expectations are a bad thing in a marriage. And I'm saying that they are not only not bad, but that they're a necessary ingredient to a good marriage.

 

If you don't have expectations of each each other, you don't really have a marriage.

[Alexandra]

Well I have to say I'm with Touche on this. There is no such thing as a marriage with no expectations, even when none is agreed upon, we can't avoid expecting, at the very least we expect having no expectations LOL.

 

The OP may still be very young hence his list may scratch sensitive PC ears and sadly I think his tone will be facing modifications in the future. I say "sadly" because he has more than most future marriages do. A knowledge of what he wants/needs and a willingness to communicate and even negotiate this. -Don't even go to how he won't negotiate because he's rigid, he does it by the mere action of discussing it with his future wife.-

 

This is two-fold. Do you agree with traditional (read archaic if you wish) roles in marriage? And could couples benefit from a clearly spelled out wants/needs list before being married or entering LTRs?

 

My personal answer is "yes" to both of them.

[Pink_Tulip]

As usual, I am with LJ.

 

As soon as you start expecting things from your partner, you find disappointment and resentment really fast. Expectation implies you have a very specific idea of what you want and how you expect to receive it. I expect my husband to go to work every day. That is pretty cut and dry. But how can you have expectations on how someone loves you? So in this list, will it say, 'I expect you to show your love for me by doing this?' What if that isn't the wife's love language? Now your silly expectations have not been met, and for you this is grounds for divorce? Please.

 

Expectations also imply a need to control someone else's behavior. As we all know, you can only control yourself. You can give yourself to someone else, and hope they return that love, but to expect it? To me that is immature and selfish. I want to know my husband loves me because he loves me, not because he fears he won't get enough tally marks on my checksheet of love every day. Yes I have expectations about how we handle the finances, etc. But interpersonal relatioships? The day my husband said to me, 'well I did all the yardwork, there for I have expectations of sex tonight,' is the day we'd be in marriage counseling.

 

I am not telling anyone how they should be in their relationships, but to say ALL good marriages are based on expectations is ignorant. If it works for you, great. But others have a different idea, and it's working pretty darn good.

[Alexandra]

But how can you have expectations on how someone loves you? So in this list, will it say, 'I expect you to show your love for me by doing this?' What if that isn't the wife's love language? Now your silly expectations have not been met, and for you this is grounds for divorce? Please.

 

I'm sorry but that to me is a strawman. First of all because there was never talk about expectations concerning love languages. Second because in your example the two are ALREADY married which is not the case for the couple in this thread and hence it leads to "should there be a divorce?" instead of "should couples have a needs/wants list expressed before they get married?" which is really the issue here.

 

I am not telling anyone how they should be in their relationships, but to say ALL good marriages are based on expectations is ignorant. If it works for you, great. But others have a different idea, and it's working pretty darn good.

 

Not to be contrary but I scrolled down and I can't see who produced such a sweeping generalisation and said "ALL good marriages".

[Outcast]

I'm sick of this thing where kids are worshipped by women and submitted to all day. If you make kids the center of the world they will grow up into the crap that people are nowadays... The husband and wife are the sun, the children are the planets. I hear so much that for women, kids come first, to me that is just such BS! I mean why should they?

 

As a matter of fact, what kids need is a LOT of love and attention. Go read some science on what happens to kids who get the kind of parenting you describe.

 

One thing that is totally doing my head in is the realisation that women use children as the excuse of all excuses to neglect their duties to their husbands

 

Before you marry anyone or have children, go visit a female relative who stays home with little children and follow her all day for a day. If you can do everything she has to do and NOT be too exhausted at the end of a day to 'put out' someone will elect you Superman For Life.

 

I don't think you understand very much about life or people at all. Please show your prospective wife this thread. She deserves to make an informed decision about whether to marry you or not. If these are your true beliefs and you are proud of them, you should have no problem being completely honest with her by printing out this thread and giving it to her to read.

[Pink_Tulip]

You're saying that expectations are a bad thing in a marriage. And I'm saying that they are not only not bad, but that they're a necessary ingredient to a good marriage.

 

If you don't have expectations of each each other, you don't really have a marriage.

 

Maybe if you'd scroll down, you'd know who I was referring to.

 

And while you are at it, please note that the entire last page is about marriages already in progress.

 

As far as your 'strawan' comment. Please go read his initial post where he specifically stated he expected sex. Which is, big surprise, many men's love language. Please also note where he stated on a few different occasions the reasons he'd up and divorce if his expectations weren't being met. I don't care that he isn't married now. Part of a discussion includes the 'what ifs,' and what happens when he finally does get married with all these expectations is certainly part of that. Additionally, many of the posts have been about expectations in a marriage in general, so I really don't understand the point of your post.

[Alexandra]

You're saying that expectations are a bad thing in a marriage. And I'm saying that they are not only not bad, but that they're a necessary ingredient to a good marriage.

 

If you don't have expectations of each each other, you don't really have a marriage.

 

Maybe if you'd scroll down, you'd know who I was referring to.

 

Well well, not sure I should even respond to this, you sound somewhat aggressive for some reason but maybe I'm just reading it wrongly.

 

However, I re-read. I can't see where in that Touche says "ALL GOOD MARRIAGES" which is what you brought up and referred to. In fact, she was talking of what she believes makes for a way to a good marriage and was even PC enough to quantify by "it works", "you're saying and I'm saying" and so on, not the only way, not all marriages.

[Trimmer]

No. He never said "obey." YOU said obey.

 

As for the children issue, we agree, Trimmer. But you only "sense" the part about obeying. And I'm sorry, but I don't "sense" that at all.

 

No, I said that I 'sensed' that he was rigid on this point. The "obey" part (specifically its presence in his wife's obligations and its absence from his list) wasn't something I sensed, it was something I read in his opening post:

 

For a man to a woman: - Support financially as best as possible, love, care, protect, respect, be gentle, be strong always, fulfill emotionally and sexually.

 

I myself see no problems in me being able to do all these.

 

For the woman to the man: - Respect, obey (as in recognise that I'm the head of the house), love, care, be devoted and fulfill emotionally and sexually.

 

And hey, I don't really care what he should be looking for, or whether any given woman should be willing to put up with that, or any of that. He is who he is, and he has a very clear idea of what that means to him. As long as he is clear about it with his prospective wife, and she is all for it and enters it with a clear head, then who the heck am I to say that she shouldn't put up with it?

 

Now, I will speak up for his potential unborn children - who can't do so for themselves - and say that unless he is willing to be more than just a begrudging head-of-household who tolerates snotty-faced, revolting kids in his domain, and actually wants to add the additional role of "father" to his life, that he shouldn't do it, and that I respect someone who knows that he shouldn't become a parent because he just doesn't want kids.

 

But his future wife, well, I wouldn't presume to speak for her; I'll let her do that for herself.

 

All the argument of the difference between expectations, gifts, demands, etc... Isn't it this all just getting a little semantic, instead of being really substantial? Whether you call them expectations, demands, goals, gifts, desires, hopes, dreams..... In order to take the semantic tarnish off them, I'll call them "nuggets".

 

In a marriage, I believe both parties should have their nuggets out on the table, and should find a way to discuss, negotiate, communicate about them to come to a common understanding of what the marriage is about. If you bristle at what seem like demands, then this person's nuggets are not for you. If you find a person who's treats his nuggets and yours as gifts, and that resonates with your outlook, then great, you might do well together.

 

But either way, isn't the point to get them all out on the table, and make sure you both have a clear view of them. LadyJane's "gifts", iamanisland's "obligations", Touche's "expectations." Structurally, within a marriage, they are effectively the same thing - they are the attachment points for the individuals within the unity of the marriage. And I believe they need to be out on the table, and the partners need to have a way of "processing" them together, whether you call this discussion, communication, negotiation, whatever.

 

I don't think that what you guys are talking about is all that different from each other here, but you're getting bogged down in whether they are gifts, expectations, demands, contracts, agreements, etc. How each person sees their nuggets (and reacts to those of their spouse) will be unique to that person, and that's up to each individual.

 

Bottom line: A husband and wife should lay their nuggets out on the table and find a way to work through them together in an honest and clear-headed process (which, incidentally, probably continues throughout a "healthy" marriage.) If it works for the two of them - even if that pile of nuggets wouldn't appeal to me - then they have my blessing.

[Touche]

Maybe if you'd scroll down, you'd know who I was referring to.

 

And while you are at it, please note that the entire last page is about marriages already in progress.

 

As far as your 'strawan' comment. Please go read his initial post where he specifically stated he expected sex. Which is, big surprise, many men's love language. Please also note where he stated on a few different occasions the reasons he'd up and divorce if his expectations weren't being met. I don't care that he isn't married now. Part of a discussion includes the 'what ifs,' and what happens when he finally does get married with all these expectations is certainly part of that. Additionally, many of the posts have been about expectations in a marriage in general, so I really don't understand the point of your post.

 

Waaa???? WTF?

[Pink_Tulip]

OK Alexandra, I don't know if you are just patronizing me, or if I am misunderstanding you. Touche said HER opinion was that a marriage must have expectations in order for it to be a good marriage. I was disagreeing with her opinion. I don't know what is confusing in that?

 

Touche, not sure why you quoted me? That conversation was with someone else.

[Alexandra]

All the argument of the difference between expectations, gifts, demands, etc... Isn't it this all just getting a little semantic, instead of being really substantial? Whether you call them expectations, demands, goals, gifts, desires, hopes, dreams..... In order to take the semantic tarnish off them, I'll call them "nuggets".

 

But either way, isn't the point to get them all out on the table, and make sure you both have a clear view of them. LadyJane's "gifts", iamanisland's "obligations", Touche's "expectations." Structurally, within a marriage, they are effectively the same thing - they are the attachment points for the individuals within the unity of the marriage. And I believe they need to be out on the table, and the partners need to have a way of "processing" them together, whether you call this discussion, communication, negotiation, whatever.

 

Brilliant. Thanks!

[Alexandra]

OK Alexandra, I don't know if you are just patronizing me, or if I am misunderstanding you. Touche said HER opinion was that a marriage must have expectations in order for it to be a good marriage. I was disagreeing with her opinion. I don't know what is confusing in that?

 

Nothing is confusing, you claimed she made a terrible generalisation, I showed you that's not true. However, all clear now, please read what Trimmer said, that was more accurate and well put than anything I can produce early in the morning