stillafool Posted May 23, 2006 Posted May 23, 2006 Me? I 16 years on the otherside of this ~ and this was before the internet ~ I went everywhere looking for answers and for solutions. Did, everything that I could to hold my marriage together ~ all for naught. You're setting yourself up to become a "lover's mathyr" and you're going to end up giving and giving and giving ~ and the more that you take the more she's going to take. I'vee read EXTENSIVELY about the subject of marriage, men and women, sex, realtionships, marriage, what women want, etc. First off ~ women themselves don't know what they want from day to day ~ speaking generally ~ it changes everyday. Women are more in tuned with their feelings and emotions ~ which are not always rational and lodgical ~ and so they tend to make decisions that are ilrational and ilogical ~ that make no sense whatsoever ~ that drive the men in their lives crazy ~ because men tend to make decsision bases upon rationality and pure exact logic. And, I'm NOT saying that women are NOT nor CANNOT be rational and logical ~ just that they have the propensity to make decisions based upon feeling and emotion and then justify them logically and rationally. With that said ~ you had best get your love lorned head out of azz ~ and start thinking about you, yourself, your children, and the rest of your lives ~ because she sure as Hell isn't. Get a notebook and start writing what was said,what was done ~ dates and times. Move any and all accounts into your name ~ and keep an eye on them. Scrutinize all account statements for any and everything. Start eliminating debt ~ and getting out of debt. Believe what you gut and your eyes are telling you ~ and not what your ears are hearing coming out of her mouth. Then give her ~ her so called time and space (that's what she's telling you) and move on with your life. Get and keep sole custody of the kids any way possible. I wish I had had someone telling me all of this. Forget trying to hold it together ~she not interested in you, the marriage, putting it back together. What she is doing is CHEATING! She's already left you in her mind, the marriage is OVER! She's just biding her time figuring out the details of her escape. Personally if I were you ~ knowing what I know now, I'd get a lawyer, get the divorce papers drawed up, have the court date set up, get any and all monies and accouts in my name, serve her with the papers the day before the court date ~ find someway to have the law escout her from the house ~and have a locksmith standing by to change the locks on any and everything. As bad as it is ~ it can and probally is going to get a lot worse for you ~ unless you take action NOW! Better for it to be here that gets raped in divorce court than you ~ and you will get and be raped. Forget her ~ go find someone that loves and is in love with you ~ just make damn sure that you trade up from what you have. What one woman wil abuse ~ another woman can certainly use. There are no shortage of good women ~ looking for good, devoted, loyal men. You're out busting your hump everyday, trying to keep a roof over her and the children's head, food in their mouths, clothes on their back, a carseat under her butt, and this is the graditude you get? You work 8 ~ 12 hour days, catching grief from the boss, co-workers, and God only knows who else and this is what you have to come home to everyday? I think not. The problem her is that yourm just a "regular guy" the loyal, stable, devoted type ~ which is the exact oppossite of the kind of guy that women are attracted to. They're attracted to the "bad guys" "seducer" "successful" and artist types ~ all of which make lousy traditional husbands. Women want what they can't get. Many single women usually have one of two types on the line ~ the one they're sleeping with ~ and the one that buys things for them. Since I've come to understand this, and comprehend this ~ I've got women knocking on my door. I don't buy women things, I don't treat them like all the other men do. I don't treat them dirty or ugly ~ I do romance them ~ make them laugh ~ show them a good time ~ but I don't put up with their nonsense, foolishness, nor do I kiss their azz.` Best of luck I am a woman and you are absolutely correct about this except what Woggle said about the difference between a little girl and a woman. I tell you Uksurfer you need to get away from her as soon as possible. Thank God you're going a way. She knows you would do anything to have her back right now. Don't try to help her - help yourself. When you help yourself you will be helping your children. With all of this going on around them they must feel the tension in the house. You poor thing.
Gunny376 Posted May 23, 2006 Posted May 23, 2006 About staying for the kids ~ in so long as its peaceful. And, I hear you when you say ~ that this is has only been going on for a couple of weeks (trust me ~ its been going on in her head for a lot longer) But, I've been savy to how women plot and discuss things amongst themselves ~ the network that women have ~ well lets just say the CIA / KGB hasn't got anything on them. But, what your wives are doing is nothing short of emotional abuse ~ a term coined by women when they can't find any other justification to rape you divorce court. What they're doing is the equivalent of playing Russian Roullete ~ holding the divorce gun to your head. I'm single at the moment ~ having been mariried once for 12 years ~ and I held on ~ and held out ~ forever ~ hoping and praying ~ begging and pleading ~ because there wasn't any good reason for getting divorced. I had a good carrer in the military ~ made good money ~ good beneifits ~ early retirement ~ didn't drink up nor gamble away the rent nor grocery money ~ was a good provider, didn't cheat, didn't beat on her, wasn't emotionaly abusive. All of what use to be the virtues of a "good husband" It use to be that the above was enough ~ but now you've got to act as though you've just meet her ~ even though you've been together for 20 years! Sixty years ago ~ it use to be that the man got EVERYTHING ~ to include the custody of the kids ~ and the women got to move back home with the clothes on her back ~ but that all started to change when women got the vote, and judges in most places are elected. I'm not saying that the way that is was ~ was fair and equitable ~ it wasn't. But, things have swung too FAR in the favor of women. Even if the man does get custody of the children ~ and is awarded child support ~ he'll never see it. From my research on the subject ~ women get custody 90% of the time ~ mainly because the man doesn't attempt to get custody ~ believeing the chldren would be better off with the mother. But, of those 10% of the times that the father seeks custody ~ they're awarded it 90% of the time. But, in such cases where the woman is ordered to pay child support ~ only 10% ever pay it! While we're on statistics ~ 90% of all divorce petitions are filed by women. Modern Western Civ Women are more than likely to fit the following bill more than not: "I see most women below the age of 40+ as having unrealistic expectations, bitter, angry, extreme emotional and mental problems, unpredictable behaviour, difficult to be around and just have a plain old good time with, difficult to please, moods that vacillate constantly......taking exorbant amounts of medication, not able to keep a goal in mind and complete it, complain and nag, highly negative and far too masculine in my humble opinion......eat too much, enjoy fast food far too much, expect for the guy to pay everything, base most of their joys on going out clubbing, purchasing clothes, and finally: status Most of them invest a lot of effort into making themselves appear pretty, special, and different than other females, but it is completely transparent. The modern American female is an empty shell of a human being, and apparently there are few exceptions. PS: Most of them act like they are 15 years old. Immaturity, undeveloped self-esteem, constant contradictions, emotional response and/or overreaction to the SIMPLEST misstatement or problem, an inability to handle adversity, constant self-absorbment, a total failure of inductive reasoning, deductive reasoning or simple pattern recognition, short attention span, superficiality, an extreme need for dependence while loudly declaring independence, etc..." I'm not saying I hate women, nor that I am bitter toward them ~ I just refuse to play their silly games. I may get married again ~ and I won't be an overbearing controlling, dominant, kunckle-dragging cave man! But, I will tell any future bride ~that the first time she even hints at a divorce ~ or pulls some act like your wives are pulling ~ she won't be going ~ she will be gone ~ with no ifs, and, nor buts about it ~ I don't and won't play that game!!!!! I'll put them to the curb quick, fast, and in a hurry like! Its controlling, manipulative, emotionally abusive, game playing ! This "emotional affair" and male friend stuff is a load of horse manure as well. By the time I got done with azz ~ he wouldn't want to come back over to my house again ~ I can promise you that! I come home and find the preacher in my house ~ they're better be a dead body lying around somewhere! I don't understand why you're letting your wives 'play' you this way ~ there's no shortage of women out here ~ they're everywhere ~ looking for a good man ~ which by the way there seems to be a shortage of! If I were either of you ~ I'd be throwing the ice water equivalent of reality in their face~! I'd have their bags packed ~ the locks changed on the door ~ giving them what they wished for! The difference is that I use to be just exactally like you ~ anything to save the marriage ~ anything to hold it together ~ etc., etc., ad nausemn! Now? a woman wheather she's a GF or a wife ~ wants to play games~ she can go to Disenyland and play them without me~! I don't understand why its YOU that's got to make all the changes? Why its YOU that says and does everything wrong? Its YOU that's got to make all the concessions! That its YOU that's got to win back HER favor, her love, her validation? That its YOU that's got to walk around in your own house on eggshells? That its HER that's going to decide wheather you get back together! That's its HER that's going to decided wheather you stay together? That its HER that's going to decided WHEN and HOW she's going to leave.
Woggle Posted May 23, 2006 Posted May 23, 2006 Bravo to what Gunny said. He said it better than I could. That is why I told my fiance that the minute she starts playing this game it is over. If she has issues we can discuss them in a civil manner but if she plays these emotional games she is out the door.
Author uksurfer Posted May 24, 2006 Author Posted May 24, 2006 Well, I stayed at my parents' place last night as her mum is staying at ours for a little while, so I wanted to give them space for them to have a chat. I spoke to her mum this morning about this after my wife had left for work, and it turns out that my wife won't even give anything away in terms of reasons, even to her own mother - because, y'know, she's just got nothing concrete to give away. After speaking to my wife last night, though, her mum really, really thinks that my wife *knows* she's making a mistake here, because of little things she does and says. It's like she's done this in the heat of an argument, and is now just running along with it because it seems too difficult to go back. That's something that I've suspected all along, too - right now, I honestly think it's just a case of hoping she's not too much of a stubborn f***er to come to me and talk. So, no, she *does* know that it's her that's doing the wrong here. And all this crap about being a lapdog. f*** that, man. I'm not. Yeah, I'm taking this badly (can you blame me?), and yeah, there's nothing more I would like right now than to fix this, but I'm also just not sitting around taking it up the ass. I'm in the middle of getting the house ready to put on the market, I already have an appointment to talk through the legal stuff, and I'm actively looking for somewhere else for me and the kids to live. This kind of stuff doesn't just happen overnight, though, and as much as I'm tempted to haul her out of the house by her hair, I really don't want our children (or any of my family for that matter) to see me do that, or even know that I've done that. Any guy who does that to the mother when there are kids around doesn't deserve to keep the kids, in my opinion - no matter what kind of s*** the mother has pulled. I'm also flying out on Friday alone to go stay with some friends for a few days, and over the last 4 weeks, I've had more nights out with other friends than I've had in the last 6 months. True, I'm hoping she's going to realise the mistake she's making - and she knows that there's nothing more I want than to put things right. But what she's also seeing right now is me making plans to get on with my life without her, and y'know, I think she's starting to panic about losing what she had.
Author uksurfer Posted May 24, 2006 Author Posted May 24, 2006 That is why I told my fiance that the minute she starts playing this game it is over. If she has issues we can discuss them in a civil manner but if she plays these emotional games she is out the door. And this is what I'll say to my wife if we ever work things out. And it's also what I'll probably say to anyone else I get into a serious relationship with. Once bitten and all that...
dgiirl Posted May 24, 2006 Posted May 24, 2006 I'm in the middle of getting the house ready to put on the market, I already have an appointment to talk through the legal stuff, and I'm actively looking for somewhere else for me and the kids to live. This kind of stuff doesn't just happen overnight, though, and as much as I'm tempted to haul her out of the house by her hair, I really don't want our children (or any of my family for that matter) to see me do that, or even know that I've done that. Any guy who does that to the mother when there are kids around doesn't deserve to keep the kids, in my opinion - no matter what kind of s*** the mother has pulled. uksurfer, i think you're doing everything you can and you should do. I think gunny and woggle are just adding more fuel to the fire because of their own issues. I resent speaches about how immature women are and how women are selfish and stuff. IMO, it's total BS. Some people are immature and selfish, but dont label it as one gender. But some people would rather use labels to blame their problems on, instead of looking inside and figuring out things they can improve on. It's so much easier to blame everything on the other person, but i highly doubt that a woman (or anyone) just wakes up one day and says "let's f*** with his head". I DO think most people try to fix their relationships as best as they know how. Granted they might not have given you a chance to fix it, but I dont think people are deliberately malicious. And when they are, is usually a cycle that the other person contributed too. You teach people how to treat you. I couldnt prevent my exh from leaving for the ow, but I did tell him not to rub it in my face. And I dont deliberately rub things in his face either. What your wife is doing is not nice at all, but I'd bet the house that it's a cycle between the two of you that's just getting worse and worse and worse. I'm not saying that you deserve this at all. Nothing justifies it. But perhaps there was something that you've done that has made her feel insecure? Nothing is ever just ONE sided. And even if it was completely one sides fault, well the other is still sitting there allowing it to happen, so they have to take responsibility in that. This reminds me of a friend who tells me stories of his ex and how jealous she would be, then he would tell me other things he'd do that would give her reasons TO be jealous.
Author uksurfer Posted May 24, 2006 Author Posted May 24, 2006 What your wife is doing is not nice at all, but I'd bet the house that it's a cycle between the two of you that's just getting worse and worse and worse. I'm not saying that you deserve this at all. Nothing justifies it. But perhaps there was something that you've done that has made her feel insecure? Nothing is ever just ONE sided. Yeah, I agree to an extent. I think we've been stuck in a rut the last couple of years with money issues and having a couple of kids on top of all that, who weren't great at sleeping, and then her dad died, and the house needs a lot of work, etc, etc. None of that has really helped. However, as I said in a previous post, we HADN'T been slowly growing apart, and we HADN'T been arguing all the time, and things HADN'T been getting worse and worse. Yada, yada, yada. But you want to know what my theory is now? Her mum agrees with me on this, btw... As she approaches her 38th birthday in a couple weeks, my wife is having issues with getting older - she's obsessing over wrinkles, and grey hairs, etc. I'd noticed her doing this a lot for about 2-3 months now, and last night, she was mentioning these things a lot to her mum, too. So (and this still doesn't excuse what she did), she starts looking for attention from younger men, and finds it in this 24 year old kid, and a bunch of other guys as young as 22, who she now calls her 'friends'. All classic mid life crisis stuff, right. She starts chatting online obsessively, and I notice her doing this, and then I actually catch her doing it. She panics (trust me, she really did panic when I caught her), and in the heat of the ensuing 'argument', she says it's over between us. Now she's feeling so guilty that she's been caught doing this, that she sticks to her decision for a few days because that's the only way she can really justify her behaviour. In the meantime, this is really tearing me apart and I need to speak to someone, so I go tell my parents. Maybe this was a mistake on my part, and maybe I should have waited a while longer before escalating things, but I was in pieces. Really. Anyhoo, I think that was the real turning point. Once I'd told someone, and then as gradually more and more people found out, she's now finding it increasingly difficult to overturn this situation. Partly because of stubborness, partly because of pride, partly because of embarrassment, partly because she knows she's pissed all of her family and all of my family off. Or whatever. Her mum's now noticing things she's saying and doing that hint at the fact that she maybe thinks she's made a mistake, and I have to admit that I've noticed some of these things, too. Her mum has been speaking to her a lot over the last couple of nights, and is actually convinced that my wife ISN'T planning to go meet any of these guys, and probably wouldn't ever have done. Problem is, my wife has never been one to easily admit that she's wrong. But I hope for the sake of our little family that this time she's big enough to do that. I for one would have a whole bunch of new respect for her if she did. I'd still be pissed, too, but then you can't blame me for that, either. You just can't go from being obviously happily married with two kids, to taking your wedding ring off and saying "that's it, we're not married anymore", in the space of 24 hours. Can you? And for god's sake. I know I keep saying it, but surely if she was *so* unhappy in the relationship, and getting out was the *only* answer, she'd just pack a bag and go stay with a friend until she could make other arrangements. Talk about sitting on the fence.
DesperateDad Posted May 24, 2006 Posted May 24, 2006 Wow. A lot has been said here in this thread. I agree with some of what Woggle and Gunny are saying. I have to disagree with the misogynous stuff, but yes, I definitely DO think that there are unreasonable expectations in our culture today that cause us to be dissatisfied with things as they are. I say 'us' because dgiirl is right, this happens to both men and women. We men expect our women to look like Jessica Alba and screw like Jenna Jamison at the same time as they take care of all of our kids and the house and also bring home a doctor or lawyer's pay. Women want us to look like Brad Pitt and be strong all the time, bring home the bacon, but cry at chick flicks. They want to be wined and dined and flown off to Paris at the drop of a hat. They also want a guy that will change diapers and clean up puke at 3am with a smile on his face and then bring her flowers in the morning. We all want this stuff because we see it on TV and in the movies. How much of what we believe about life and relationships is based on the Gilmore Girls or Party of Five? What do you believe about cops or lawyers or doctors that you know from personal experience? Or did it really come from NYPD Blue or LA Law or ER? Think about it. We live in the Land of Illusion. No, I don't look like Brad Pitt and I'm not a doctor or lawyer. I don't drive a Porsche nor do I smile as I clean up puke at 3am. But, I DO care about how I look, I DO have a good, stable job with a decent income and I DO clean up the puke and change the diapers. That counts for something. Uksurfer, I think you're doing the right things and I'm really impressed. Keep up the good work. If she doesn't want you back, she IS crazy. As for myself, I've already talked to a lawyer and know what I have to do if it comes to it. I've worked on separating myself from my wife in that I don't rely on her anymore to take care of anything for me. I can definitely make it on my own and I'm not at all worried about surviving or getting lots of action with the ladies. Not a problem. This situation sucks to be in, but after a few weeks of fear and anxiety, I realize that I have the power. I'm going to be okay regardless and I know it. I don't have any illusions about my future. I know there may be some loneliness for a time, but it will be pretty easy for me to bounce back and thrive. Much easier than it will be for a single mom with lots of small kids and lots of big bills. Yes, both uksurfer and I (and others) were completely shocked by all of this and started off being pretty pathetic, but that part is done with. If and when it's time to move on, we'll do it.
Author uksurfer Posted May 24, 2006 Author Posted May 24, 2006 Wow. A lot has been said here in this thread. I agree with some of what Woggle and Gunny are saying. I have to disagree with the misogynous stuff, but yes, I definitely DO think that there are unreasonable expectations in our culture today that cause us to be dissatisfied with things as they are. Me too. We live in the Land of Illusion. No, I don't look like Brad Pitt and I'm not a doctor or lawyer. I don't drive a Porsche nor do I smile as I clean up puke at 3am. But, I DO care about how I look, I DO have a good, stable job with a decent income and I DO clean up the puke and change the diapers. Yeah, me too. In fact, I do much more than my wife in this respect, as she works full time, and I work from home with a decent business that I can fit around the kids' school times, dinner times, etc. Uksurfer, I think you're doing the right things and I'm really impressed. Keep up the good work. If she doesn't want you back, she IS crazy. Yeah, she must be. As for myself, I've already talked to a lawyer and know what I have to do if it comes to it. I've worked on separating myself from my wife in that I don't rely on her anymore to take care of anything for me. I can definitely make it on my own and I'm not at all worried about surviving or getting lots of action with the ladies. Not a problem. This situation sucks to be in, but after a few weeks of fear and anxiety, I realize that I have the power. I'm going to be okay regardless and I know it. I don't have any illusions about my future. I know there may be some loneliness for a time, but it will be pretty easy for me to bounce back and thrive. Much easier than it will be for a single mom with lots of small kids and lots of big bills. Yes, both uksurfer and I (and others) were completely shocked by all of this and started off being pretty pathetic, but that part is done with. If and when it's time to move on, we'll do it. Exactly the same here. I know I'll be OK at the end of this whichever way it goes. Man, it hurts like f***, but yeah, I'll survive. But you know what, all these generalisations and suggested solutions really mean absolutely nothing to us. Don't get me wrong, it helps to discuss this kind of thing with other people, and I'm really grateful and appreciative to anyone who's contributed here, but ultimately, each of the posts in this thread are just vague attempts for us to try to understand what's happening, and to help make us feel better about what's happening by putting a label on it, or by giving it a name. I wish there was some kind of pill that my wife could take to help her see what she's doing from the same point of view as me, both of our families, and all of our friends. But the real truth of the matter is that whatever my wife is doing is her choice alone, and it's entirely her call. Her reasons are probably completely different from DesperateDad's wife's reasons, and there's no common or 'right' way to fix either of these situations - that's if they are even fixable. At the end of the day, it's our wives' choices if they decide they want to leave, or if they want to come back - just the same as if it was the other way around. But it's difficult trying to put yourself in her position and to try to figure out what she's really thinking when everything you can see is so clear cut to you. True, we feel that if we'd been aware of any problems, then we could have tried to fix them, and the fact that we didn't get a chance to do this is what's really pissing us off. Or maybe these feelings did come to our wives as suddenly as it appeared to us. Who really knows? Either way, at the start of this thread, someone said that you can't change the way someone feels about you, and you can't force them to be with someone they don't want to be with - and that is very, very true. Everyone's different, and everyone has their own lives to lead. You need to respect people for that - even if the decisions they make screw you into the ground. I agree with dgiirl that our wives certainly aren't doing anything malicious to us on purpose, and I think I know my wife well enough after 6 1/2 years to genuinely believe that she's not doing this to hurt me intentionally. People change their minds about relationships and life ambitions for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes their decisions seem stupid, selfish and irrational to us. Eventually, they might realise that the decisions they've made seem stupid, selfish and irrational to them, too. Who knows when, or if that will ever happen. But however this turns out, I know that I'll have done everything I can to fix this - and that's something that I'm going to carry on doing until I know that hope has well and truly left the building. Right now, it seems like my wife is wavering, like she's having some kind of crisis, like she doesn't really know what she wants. I'd still like her to think that I was an option for her, if that's what she wants to choose. However, at the same time, I am focusing on making plans for my own life because there's a 50-50 chance that that's the way it's going to swing for me. But at the end of the day, I feel that my wife and myself have been through too much together, and had such a great relationship over the last 6 1/2 years, have built such a great family, and had such a great future planned together, to lose everything as easily and as quickly as this. And even though I'm starting to tire of all of this, I'm damned well not going to give up everything I've always wanted without a fight. That's me, and you know what, I'm sticking to it.
Gunny376 Posted May 24, 2006 Posted May 24, 2006 UKSurfer ~ I believe that you have finally gotten to the root cause ~ I truly do. Women DO (generally speaking) do have a harder time with aging than men ~ ! In all fairness ~ YES my response was tainted with bias and prejudice ~ and it is where my head is here and today ~ because ~ of my life experiences thus far to date. And, I was wrong to throw a blanket out there to cover any and all women ~ I just don't have the time, energy, nor money to be wasting on some woman that wants to play silly games. And, one cannot be fully in a relationship wheather its a marraige or otherwise ~ in so long as there are other people in your relationship regardless of its a fantasy, emotional, or actual physical affair. There's by definition ~ just not enough room. If there are problems, issues, etc ~ then we need to sit down as grown, adult individuals and discuss it ~ but I can't fix it, if I'm not aware of the problem ~ and I adsoultely suck at reading someone else's mind! God bless Good Luck to the both of you and yours Gunny
mental_traveller Posted May 25, 2006 Posted May 25, 2006 You just can't go from being obviously happily married with two kids, to taking your wedding ring off and saying "that's it, we're not married anymore", in the space of 24 hours. Can you? And for god's sake. I know I keep saying it, but surely if she was *so* unhappy in the relationship, and getting out was the *only* answer, she'd just pack a bag and go stay with a friend until she could make other arrangements. Talk about sitting on the fence. I really didn't want to comment on this thread, but you've said this same horse manure dozens of times now. Firstly, how the hell do you know she was "obviously happily married"? Tell me, what's more likely - she was 100% happy, then in 24 hours changed her mind; or that she was not happy, but you didn't notice. Come on, wake up here and stop living in denial. Your wife was not 100% happy with the marriage for quite some, way before you found out something was amiss. There's simply no way to avoid that conclusion. Either she is pathologically insane and had a huge character change in 24 hours, or it took far far longer and you simply didn't pay attention or notice. So please, drop this nonsense about "she can't have changed just like that, can she?". Your conclusion in the second paragraph I quoted is questionable too. People are often indecisive. It's quite possible she is very unhappy, that doesn't mean she is going to move out. What makes you think she is going to act just like you would in the same situaiton? What makes you think she operates according to your exectations rather than her feelings? IF she acted in what you consider a logical & reasonable fashion, then she wouldn't be doing all this stuff would she? You have proof right in front of your eyes that she's acting in a way you consider crazy & irrational, yet here you go expecting her to act rationally. I think you have a serious case of denial here. You seem unable to grasp that your wife is a different person to you, with different thoughts, many of which you are unaware of. She's behaving according to motivations you don't share or understand. Wake up and see her behaviour for what it is, not what you wish it was or want it to be. Also, so what if she "backed herself into a corner"? You are just making excuses for her crazy behaviour. If she had a problem and didn't tell you, that's her fault. If she turned to some horny 24 year old instead of you, that's her fault. If she's making outrageous and immoral threats against you, that's her fault. It's all her fault, stop making excuses for her. She's acting like a total bitch, can't you recognise that? I realise it's hard to adjust, but the fact is that you don't know your wife. She's not who you thought she was. You've been living an illusion, and now it's been shattered and you're thrown for a loop. Get to grips with the nwe reality as fast as you can - judge her by her actions & threats, not by whichever excuses you can make up for her today. To be brutally honest, I think you would be crazy to stay with this bunny boiler. I think because you are stuck in this mess, you are not capable of objectively seeing the situation, and so you don't realise how outrageous and damn crazy she appears. IMHO you might as well accept your marriage is over, stop trying to save it, and move on. There are lots of normal, loving, SANE women out there, why not find one?
mental_traveller Posted May 25, 2006 Posted May 25, 2006 Woggle, I do respect your opinion on this and I understand what you're saying. I still think it's a little too soon to be giving up for either me or uksurfer. I'd say it's a long way too late. Just ask yourselves - are these the things that dream relationships are made of? There are Ferraris and Porsche driving by, while you're spending months working to get your broken crapped-out jalopy started again by the roadside. Really, what's the point? Hell, even a Toyota would look great compared to this.
Author uksurfer Posted May 25, 2006 Author Posted May 25, 2006 To be brutally honest, I think you would be crazy to stay with this bunny boiler. I think because you are stuck in this mess, you are not capable of objectively seeing the situation, and so you don't realise how outrageous and damn crazy she appears. IMHO you might as well accept your marriage is over, stop trying to save it, and move on. There are lots of normal, loving, SANE women out there, why not find one? You're dead right, man.
Author uksurfer Posted May 25, 2006 Author Posted May 25, 2006 But.... I'm still hooked on this midlife crisis issue after reading this article: http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/tt/t-articl/midlife.htm It describes my wife's actions, and the causes of her doing this, so damned closely that it's almost difficult to believe. True, it doesn't change a thing - she's still acted irresponsibly, selfishly, and very superficially, but it helps me put a name to it and it helps me begin to understand what she's done. Sometimes all you need to move on is to be able to understand. Sometimes, all you need is a reason. And you know, mental_traveller, I still just can't switch off what I feel for her after 4 weeks, no matter how much horse manure you tell me I'm spouting.
Ladyjane14 Posted May 25, 2006 Posted May 25, 2006 ....I still just can't switch off what I feel for her after 4 weeks, no matter how much horse manure you tell me I'm spouting. You're right. Four weeks isn't much time in terms of changing your feelings. But you might start thinking about what you can really live with and what you can't. What will you do if your most basic boundaries continue to be abused? Unfortunately, sometimes a WS doesn't really address their behavior until they can see the consequences. That ended up proving true enough in my case. There were things I could live with...and things I couldn't. Once I found my boundaries, my own choices were clear to me and I was willing to act accordingly. This becomes useful data to a WS, something that helps them clarify their own decisions as well. It sets up the parameters on what they need to do if they want to keep you in the relationship with them. It wasn't until I demanded a divorce that things changed in my situation. I didn't do it because I was mad. I did it because it was the natural consequence of clarifying my choices. I couldn't continue in the marriage with my boundaries so badly broken. You'll get there eventually, UK. Your choices start with YOU afterall. And once you stop basing them on the actions of others, and realize that you can only effectively control yourself and no one else. You options are clarified. Sometimes the outcome is not quite what you hoped it would be....but either way, you find yourself in the driver's seat of YOUR life.
Gunny376 Posted May 25, 2006 Posted May 25, 2006 You're right. Four weeks isn't much time in terms of changing your feelings. But you might start thinking about what you can really live with and what you can't. What will you do if your most basic boundaries continue to be abused? Unfortunately, sometimes a WS doesn't really address their behavior until they can see the consequences. That ended up proving true enough in my case. There were things I could live with...and things I couldn't. Once I found my boundaries, my own choices were clear to me and I was willing to act accordingly. This becomes useful data to a WS, something that helps them clarify their own decisions as well. It sets up the parameters on what they need to do if they want to keep you in the relationship with them. It wasn't until I demanded a divorce that things changed in my situation. I didn't do it because I was mad. I did it because it was the natural consequence of clarifying my choices. I couldn't continue in the marriage with my boundaries so badly broken. You'll get there eventually, UK. Your choices start with YOU afterall. And once you stop basing them on the actions of others, and realize that you can only effectively control yourself and no one else. You options are clarified. Sometimes the outcome is not quite what you hoped it would be....but either way, you find yourself in the driver's seat of YOUR life. Well though out, well spoken, well said. It is often times in life, that it we ourselves that holds the keys that will set us free. Its takes TWO to make it ~ but only ONE to break it! You can't be in a marriage or other relationship by YOURSELF!
Author uksurfer Posted May 25, 2006 Author Posted May 25, 2006 You'll get there eventually, UK. Your choices start with YOU afterall. And once you stop basing them on the actions of others, and realize that you can only effectively control yourself and no one else. I know I'll get there. Man, it all kicked off horribly last night and it wasn't pretty. I did stuff and she said stuff that just went way beyond what each of us thought we were capable of. We've been like caged tigers in the house. And last night we were hungry. We've both since apologised to each other, and I've been beset by a strange kind of calm today. I've decided something. I'm going to back off. I'm going to let her go. I'm going to be civil about it. I'm going to show her that I can deal with this. And that I can live happily with it. There's two things I've learned in all of this, that yeah, I've probably been advised all along. But they're two things that everyone really should consider: 1) Be you. The real you. Do things for yourself. Do things you enjoy. Go out. Meet people. Talk. Laugh. Don't be afraid to make new friends. It's not about acting, it's about being the person that you were when your partner first met you. It's about being the person your partner was attracted to in the first place - it's where your chances lie if you would still like to give things another go. Your partner won't want to know you if you spend your time getting angry, getting depressed, moping around the house, begging for another chance, or weeping and wailing all over the place. That's going to push them further away. Trust me. If your partner decides to go, let them go. Let them see that you can do perfectly well without them. Let them see what they'll miss out on. If they can't see it, it's their choice, and it's their loss. Let them see you. The real you. Even if you know that a reconciliation isn't going to happen, just by doing this you're going to feel good about yourself. You're single again. Have some fun, guys. Find a way to enjoy it. 2) Don't be bitter. Don't try to seek revenge. Don't play games. Don't try to score points. Don't try to control. It's not worth it. You're a bigger person than that. You can walk away from this stronger. You're going places. You have your own life to lead and you've now got another chance to find something bigger, something better, and something much more rewarding. Whether you like it or not, you're searching again. And y'know, searching is generally a hell of a lot more fun than finding. And like I said, if you want to reconcile and you really do think there's a chance, being bitter is not going to help your cause. At all. But either way, don't be a doormat, too. Just don't. It's not attractive, and trust me, it's not good for your soul. 3) If you've got kids, all of the above apply - double. Why? Because no matter how sorry you feel for yourself, no matter how angry or hurt you are, no matter how bad you feel about your partner, your kids MUST COME FIRST. Be big. Don't fight over them. Share them. Make them feel loved. Don't use them as bargaining tools. Don't put them in the middle. Don't make them choose. Don't put them through the courts. Remember, they have done nothing wrong. Nothing at all. Me, I'm getting on with my life. Right now, it looks like she's moving out, and it looks like I'm getting my own place. I'm kinda starting to look forward to that. I'm kinda starting to look forward to being the person I was before we got married. I'm actually kinda looking forward to getting to know my wife again as a friend, without all the baggage of being married. Where that will go, I honestly don't know. But I'm not resting everything on it. I'm not counting on a reconciliation. I'm not betting the farm. True, I'm hoping that she'll discover she's making a mistake, but at the same time, I'm also going to start searching for what I want out of my life, too. I might find it and discover that it's even better than what I had with my wife. Or, I might find that my path - and her path - lead right back home to each other. The truth is that no-one really knows. But one thing's certain: this is how life works. Sometimes it is s***e. A big, steaming pile of s***e. But most times, it's something we all just need to deal with. However, I truly believe that my wife is going through an emotional rough patch right now, that she needs some space, and that it could go either way. It could simply be a speedhump in our relationship, and that she needs some time to reevaluate what she wants out of us. The last 2 years have been tough. I understand that. And I can live with that. Or, it could be that she's made her mind up and that she really does want out. It hurts like a bitch, but I don't think she's making these decisions lightly, and y'know, I respect that. But whatever she decides, we've been best friends for 6 1/2 years, and trust me, being nasty just hasn't ever been part of her character - and right now - for a little while at least - I'm also giving her the benefit of any doubt I have. Why? Because she's my wife, because she's my best friend, and because we have 2 gorgeous kids together who need to come first in all of this. If you think I'm wrong, then hey, that's your call. You live with it.
Gunny376 Posted May 25, 2006 Posted May 25, 2006 Keep you eye on what the most important in all of this your and the wife's relationship with the kids ~ keep the parentning structure in tact. We all live life somewhere between a laugh and a tear ~ there's a middle ground in there somewhere. Lives a stuggle ~ no matter who we are! Live life large! MAKE yourself laugh and smile everyday ~ even if you don't feel like it! Go with God, and may God be with you and your all of your loved ones! God Bless you and yours! Gunny
Gunny376 Posted May 25, 2006 Posted May 25, 2006 What is this ice that gathers round my heart To stop the flood of warmth before it even starts It would make me blind to what I thought would always be The only constant in the world for me And every hours of every day I need to fight from pulling away And if my mind could only loose the chain The dam would break For all the things I hid away And all the words I could not say The dam would break ~Toad ~ The Wet Sprocket
Trimmer Posted May 25, 2006 Posted May 25, 2006 uksurfer: 1) Be you. The real you. YES.... possibly the most often heard advice on this forum, probably because everyone finds it's a common thread: work on yourself. I used to think there would always be "us", but now I realize that at the end of the day, it may only be "me", so I'd better know, understand, and be at peace with myself. 2) Don't be bitter. YES... in order to work on yourself, you have to let go. Bitterness, revenge, and control are manifestations of refusing to let go, and ultimately they just burn you up from within. There's another thread around here somewhere about taking revenge, pros and cons. An interesting read, but it's just not the person I want to be, and since I'm working on myself, why poison my task with such a negative focus on someone else? 3) If you've got kids, all of the above apply - double. YES and YES... (double, get it?) They are your sacred trust. They are resilient, but that doesn't mean you get to "spend" their resiliency by exposing them to immature spousal BS. It means that you must safeguard that resiliency so they have it in reserve to use in the normal course of their development. They need both parents in supoprtive, healthy roles in their lives, so to the maximum degree possible, support, encourage, and facilitate their relationship with your spouse/ex-spouse or whatever, and optimistically hope for the best in return. Resolve to be better parents than you were spouses. You'll smoke a turd in hell if you use your kids as any kind of tool or leverage in your divorce. And uksurfer - the only other thing I'll add: let yourself mourn the loss. It may be sadder and more painful than you can imagine, but if you can go along with the 3 things you outlined, your grief will be strong, but peaceful. I started out grieving and angry and bitter all at the same time, and it was a nasty mix. Once I found some acceptance of my situation and myself, even without a fully formed vision of my future, once I committed to that future, my grief was stronger, but also felt more peaceful, and it also felt like the beginning of healing, instead of a continuation of the trauma.
Author uksurfer Posted May 29, 2006 Author Posted May 29, 2006 Well, I'm back from my little trip. Had a good time, too. Anhoo, I get home and she tells me she's actually found somewhere else to live (a rented room in a shared flat), and that she's moving out next weekend. Jesus. Well, we also just had a calm talk in which she's telling me about this new place she's getting, and other stuff. I'm not putting pressure on her at all, no talk of our relationship or anything like that - in fact, I'm backing right off, I'm being super cheery, super laid back, and actually super upbeat about it all. She says she still really loves me, but has lost 'those feelings' for me. All I have asked is whether she thinks these feelings might come back to her. She says she doesn't know. (At least that's something, right?) So now I guess it's up to me to try to be the same person she first fell in love with, the person who she told that this relationship is 'the one', and the person who she told 'this is what being in love is really like', and the person she wanted to spend the rest of her life with. If she notices me again, then great. If not, then at least I'm doing all that for me. She also says that she wants to keep coming over every other night, and at weekends, too, and that she also wants to both of us to still share the car, and that she wants to be able to pop in for coffee. Share the car? Huh? Like how do you get joint custody of the car? She's also assured me that there isn't anyone else. Her mum assures me that, too. The online stuff is just her being 'her' - more out of boredom than anything else - and none of it will come to anything. She's also assured me that she's not looking for another relationship and that she just wants to be single. We've also just been out for lunch with the kids, too, and I played super dad (just like I always do ), and I'm certain that out of the corner of my eye, I glanced at her looking over at me playing with the kids with a real kinda confused and lost look on her face. Like she knows what she's throwing away. And that she might be starting to regret it. In one sense, I'm pleased that she's going. She's going to hate living in this room, and to be honest, I have a feeling that it's going to be one of those "you don't know what you've got until it's gone" kinda situations. Meaning that there's still a chance, eh? I'm also reasonably upbeat and excited about my own future, too, and it almost feels strange to actually feel like that. But then, in another sense, her telling me she's going next weekend felt like I'd just been hit in the face. By. A. f***ing. Mack. Truck. Know what I mean?
Woggle Posted May 29, 2006 Posted May 29, 2006 Are the kids staying with you? If so I think her contact with you should be strictly limited to seeing them. Don't let her have her cake and eat it too and always have a happy face when she sees you.
Author uksurfer Posted May 29, 2006 Author Posted May 29, 2006 Yeah, our gorgeous kids are gonna stay with me for now. But I just talked to her a few minutes ago, and she said that maybe she just needs some time away, and that she's NOT completely scrubbing the idea of us getting back together. Honestly, I'm picking up these little glimmers of hope left, right and center. That little talk we had just now has made me feel so much on top of things than anything else in the last 4 weeks. And to everyone that's telling me that I need to get tough, and this, and that and whatever else, f*** that. To me, what I'm doing is right. No f***ing question. I'm the most laid back, easy going guy on the planet - but no, I'm not gonna let myself be stomped over, but I'm not going to run away from all of this either. Like it or lump it, dudes. And either way, I'm writing it down in this thread whether you like it or not.
RecordProducer Posted May 30, 2006 Posted May 30, 2006 Uksurfer, she has found someone, I am pretty sure. She is leaving the kids, going to live in a room, and not closing the possibility of coming back to you. What does it smell like to you? Try to snoop some more and find out the whole truth. What kind of mother abandons a 5-y.o. and a 2-y.o. kid? This is so sad. I have two of my own and could never ever leave them, no matter what. :love:
Trimmer Posted May 30, 2006 Posted May 30, 2006 You know, it may not be so incompatible, the advice you're hearing. "Get tough" can be just another way to say "know your boundaries and stick to them," which can be just another way of saying "don't let yourself be stomped on." All just different facets of the same jewel. You can be strong but still easygoing - that's called confidence. You can set boundaries and enforce them without being a jerk about it - that takes maturity. You can let her know that the door is open, but that you are moving into the future, and she needs to make the same commitment to the relationship that you've made if she wants to come along, without being desperate, pleading, or pitiful. That's called... well, what the hell is that called? I don't know. There's probably some complex Japanese or German word that encapsulates this philosophy. Ahhhh, maybe that's what Fahrvergnügen really means... I'm also reasonably upbeat and excited about my own future, too, and it almost feels strange to actually feel like that. You bet it feels strange - after just drifting downstream for quite some time, realizing that I truly owned my own future was both liberating and scary as hell all at the same time. If you can, try to notice the good feelings you get from being in control of yourself and your future, and don't forget those behind the good feelings you get from the little bits of hope you get from your wife. Not that those shouldn't make you feel good, but the thing that's going to be a constant, your foundation, the thing that's going to propel you into the future is your own sense of self, your commitment to your family - in whatever form "family" takes in the future - and all that stuff that you get to be in control of.
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