Visit to a rub & tug

[JamesM]

From a guy who has been there, it is NOTHING more than a business transaction. It is a massage ending in a hj.

 

Is it right for a married man to do? No.

 

Is it worth ending a marriage over? Absolutely no.

 

Is it cheating? Yes.

 

Is it the same as an affair? No. (I will get slammed for this).

 

Can you forgive him? (you reply)

 

Do you need to talk about it? Yes.

 

By the way, if you had called, I doubt they would have told you anything.

[whichwayisup]

The end result is the same, loss of trust.

[catgirl1927]

Yeah, I disagree, JamesM. It might not be worth ending the marriage to the person who had it done, but it would be to me.

[JamesM]

Agreed..the end result is the same, but an affair involves emotional ties, while a "massage" involves a transaction with no intentions of more than a moment of relief.

 

To a man this is a huge difference. To a woman, it is still cheating.

 

As a man, I would have less of a problem with my wife at this sort of place as compared to a "real" affair.

[catgirl1927]

Also, here's another question: If someone did something like this and their SO forgave them for it, wouldn't they be very, VERY likely to do it over and over again? Because, I mean, their SO said it was ok, so why stop? My point is, if you don't put your foot down and end it, they are just going to cheat again and again because you've given them a free pass.

 

"less of a problem", but still a problem, right?

[LongTallSally]

even if it is a "business transaction" to a man, that would piss me off to no end.

 

a massage is one thing, a hand job is another. no one has any business making the man i am with feel good in that kind of way. and he has no business looking for it from someone else, whether he pays for it or not.

 

i wonder how many men would say "yeah it's okay" if it was standard procedure for their women to go out and pay for a manicure that ended with an orgasm from the tongue or hands or whatever of another man.

 

(although who knows , maybe some men who don't like to "go down" would appreciate the service being offered so they don't have to. )

 

in any case, this would be a no-go in my book. there is no reason for his member to be handled by anyone other than the two of us...and perhaps a doctor in the event that i ever have to break it off.

[shocked-n-shaken]

From a guy who has been there, it is NOTHING more than a business transaction. It is a massage ending in a hj.

 

Is it right for a married man to do? No.

 

Is it worth ending a marriage over? Absolutely no.

 

Is it cheating? Yes.

 

Is it the same as an affair? No. (I will get slammed for this).

 

Can you forgive him? (you reply)

 

Do you need to talk about it? Yes.

 

By the way, if you had called, I doubt they would have told you anything.

 

 

I called and asked what kind of services they provided because I was looking for a wax, she replied the provide service to males only. They are listed as a Tokyo Annia's Exotic Health Centre. So, no they didn't say hand jobs for $50 when you call. But I think the name and male only services was enough for me to question what my husband could be doing there?

[shocked-n-shaken]

then what happened? what are you going to do?

He is very sorry and remorseful.

 

He wants to work things out and says he will respect whatever decision I make and he hopes that I don't throw him out.

 

I promised I would make any decisions until I had a chance to full process the situation and look at it from all sides.

 

He wanted to talk and talk and talk about it and have an answer that night. I said I couldn't answer that quickly, I was in shock basically and needed time to absorb.

 

He has been away on business since Monday morning returning this evening late.

 

So I have had sometime to reflect and think but don't know how I will feel when I see him.

[Pink_Tulip]

Wow shocked, that is a really cr@ppy way to find something like that out. I can't imagine how that must have felt.

 

Its really easy to sit back and say you should feel this way or that, lol, but honestly I don't know what to tell you. Its like, you had been working so hard to salvage your marriage and then this, one more thing you have to deal with. At what point are you just done, you know?

 

I really thought I was at that point with my marriage. I agreed to counselling b/c of the kids, but really, I was just going through the motions, had my mind made up I was leaving and wanted to say I tried everything, even if in my heart I knew it was just an act. I was soooo angry those first few months of counselling...

 

I guess when my husband really showed me that everything he promised wasn't smoke and mirriors, I started lightening up on him. That has been, and continues to be my biggest fear- that all his changes were just temporary to fix it all, then things would slip back to where they were. Several years later, he has kept his word.

 

Thats not to say things are perfect, we have both been permanently scared by this experience, and I wonder how my life would be different if I had left, but I think we made the right decision. And if we didn't, its not such a bad life, you know? We are happy, the kids are happy, our communication is excellent, etc.

 

Good luck, I remember going through all that, and it was soooo painful. I wouldn't want to live it again. Keep us updated, your story is very near to my heart.

[Walk]

Walk- do you ever have any regrets about leaving? Did you have children with your husband? If I had not had kids, staying would not have been an option. I entered into counseling only b/c of them. I love my husband, but after what has happened, I have never since been able to give myself to him 100%. There is always that part of me that has to stay protected, just in case, you know? The whole 'fool me once' deal. That makes me sad and cynical, and I wonder if I had left if I would have been able to give myself fully to the other man. I think about him sometimes and I feel a sense of loss. As I have said, bad deal all around.

 

I don't regret leaving, but it would have been different if we'd had kids together. I would've attempted to work things out and stay at that point, for the kids. But we didn't have any, and I was so infuriated I just wanted out of there.

 

As far as giving your H 100%... I know that I still fear that my partner is going to hurt me the way my ex did. It's caused me problems in my current relationsihp. I don't think that goes away, no matter who you're with, until you've been consistantly shown over a long period of time that it's not going to happen. And sometimes it'll still appear for no reason out of the blue.

 

But like I said, I don't think I would've left if I'd had kids with my ex. I want to raise my children in a two parent household, so they could have all the love and support possible.

[blind_otter]

Also, here's another question: If someone did something like this and their SO forgave them for it, wouldn't they be very, VERY likely to do it over and over again? Because, I mean, their SO said it was ok, so why stop? My point is, if you don't put your foot down and end it, they are just going to cheat again and again because you've given them a free pass.

 

"less of a problem", but still a problem, right?

 

I see a lot of people who haven't been unfaithful categoarize infidelity like this, like it's some static part of their personality that is deeply engrained in who they are and therefore, like asking your man to "change" , it's impossible to eradicte.

 

Depending on the reasons why people stray, though, this is fallacious and not logical thinking.

 

If for example you cheat because there is something deficient in your relationship (like the TLC song "Creep" - "it's only 'cause I need some affection...."), if the underlying issue is resolved then the impetus to stray no longer exists.

 

The sad part about dysfunctional relationships is that both parties tend to cast their partner as the evil nemesis who does horrible things to ruin the relationship. More often it's a feedback loop, a relational dynamic that is fed by BOTH people involved, due to dysfunctional ways they learned how to relate to other people from way back in the day.

 

But it's easier to put the focus on something entirely external, your partner, than to examine whawt you do to each other to create a warped relationship dynamic.

 

I've cheated in relationships once, and never again.

[catgirl1927]

I see a lot of people who haven't been unfaithful categoarize infidelity like this, like it's some static part of their personality that is deeply engrained in who they are and therefore, like asking your man to "change" , it's impossible to eradicte.

 

Depending on the reasons why people stray, though, this is fallacious and not logical thinking.

 

If for example you cheat because there is something deficient in your relationship (like the TLC song "Creep" - "it's only 'cause I need some affection...."), if the underlying issue is resolved then the impetus to stray no longer exists.

 

The sad part about dysfunctional relationships is that both parties tend to cast their partner as the evil nemesis who does horrible things to ruin the relationship. More often it's a feedback loop, a relational dynamic that is fed by BOTH people involved, due to dysfunctional ways they learned how to relate to other people from way back in the day.

 

But it's easier to put the focus on something entirely external, your partner, than to examine whawt you do to each other to create a warped relationship dynamic.

 

I've cheated in relationships once, and never again.

 

I see what you're saying. You're right, I have never been unfaithful and it's a behavior I don't understand. My thing is, if something is deficient in the relationship, why wouldn't someone just end the relationship rather than cheat. But I don't think I will ever really understand it. I'm just not wired that way, which is probably why it's hard for me to believe that cheaters can change...

[blind_otter]

I see what you're saying. You're right, I have never been unfaithful and it's a behavior I don't understand. My thing is, if something is deficient in the relationship, why wouldn't someone just end the relationship rather than cheat. But I don't think I will ever really understand it. I'm just not wired that way, which is probably why it's hard for me to believe that cheaters can change...

 

Yep. I've done it because I don't understand what a loving, trusting relationship is. I've never had one, not with my mother, or my family for the most part, and never with anyone of the opposite sex. I've had to teach myself.

[catgirl1927]

Yep. I've done it because I don't understand what a loving, trusting relationship is. I've never had one, not with my mother, or my family for the most part, and never with anyone of the opposite sex. I've had to teach myself.

 

Me too. And not just from my f-ed up family. I've only had a couple of relationships where I wasn't cheated on, and only one so far where I wasn't lied to...

[Pink_Tulip]

Hey Catgirl, maybe I can help you understand a bit?

 

I used to HATE cheaters, I mean, I would get SO angry when I heard that someone was cheating. I thought like you, if you are that unhappy, leave! Then I was in the situation.

 

After years of my husband treating me and the kids like a huge bother, I had no self esteem, I thought horrible things about myself. I thought I was LUCKY he was still with me, b/c who would want to be with someone as worthless as me??? I used to not be that way. I have always been a strong, confident, independent person. But through a chain of events (no story is just one paragraph long, lol), and with my husbands added issues (he was going through is own thing), I just fell apart slowly through the years. At the end, I didn't realize there was anything I could do to make it better. I just assumed this was the best it was going to get. I can't explain it, b/c its NOT how I feel now, but when you are depressed and have no self esteem, its almost impossible to see outside your little world, you know? My focus was on, how can I MAKE my husband love me, not, how can I learn to love myself again. Very sad.

 

Then I meet the other guy, and we just clicked. He loved talking to me, spending time with me, told me I am pretty, smart, etc. Things I hadn't heard, but been craving, for years. We never held hands, hugged, kissed, nothing. Not saying if my husband hadn't found out that wouldn't have happened, but it was purely emotional. I was struggling in my head with doing these things, b/c I craved the physical intimacy with someone I was emotionally connected to. It was hell, feeling so torn. I am glad it never progressed to being physical, b/c I know I would have to live with terrible guilt for letting it get that far, hurting my husband that way, and damaging my principles.

 

But now, when I hear about people cheating, unless it is blatantly one person doing it just for their jollies, I feel sad, and wonder what they were missing in their relationship. Not saying it is OK to cheat at all, just saying coming from where I was, I can understand some of the deep sadness that leads some people to cheat, if that makes sense.

[catgirl1927]

Pink, I think having kids changes the whole scenario. I can see where you were coming from.

 

See, I was very unhappy in my marriage and I met this guy who was like you describe. One evening I was out for a girl's night and he showed up. We talked and laughed and I felt the kind of connection you're talking about. When I got home he tried to call me, but I refused to answer my cell. It was because I was scared, because I was SO tempted. But I knew the problem was that I was unhappy, who knew if it was even really that guy? So I asked my ex to move out and I got a divorce. I went on a couple of dates with the guy but he ended up not really being interested, I was kind of in a messy place and he didn't think I was worth the trouble. But that's not really the point. When I felt that draw, I separated and took care of my unhappy marriage FIRST, before anything happened. As big a slug as my ex was, he didn't deserve that disrespect. BUT, there were no children's lives to disrupt either, I was able to do things just for me because it was JUST ME. Kids make ALL the difference.

[Pink_Tulip]

Catgirl- I remember a time when I was really feeling the draw to this other person, sitting down with my husband and begging him to work on the marriage with me. His response, 'You know thats not my personality.'

 

You are right, I absolutely should have kicked him out that moment. I should have done a lot of things. But at the time, I couldn't afford to be on my own and support the kids. I was very scared. And I was afraid to put my kids through a divorce. I didn't want to lose my house. I was afraid this other person was just using me and he didn't have those feelings for me anyway, and if I left to be with him, I'd be made a joke. So I tried to justify it in my head, thinking, I won't let this go anywhere. I'll just enjoy the attention, b/c it felt so good. This was wrong, but I felt like a starving person looking at a bunch of someone elses food... no one would notice if I took just a bite... it was a victimless crime... So I continued. Talk about a lot of inner turmoil. I have a lot of respect for you for doing what you did. I wish I had had that strength at the time, it would have worked out a lot better for everyone involved, b/c my husband would have gotten his wake up call w/o having to be hurt like he was. And I wouldn't have to live with this constant guilt.

 

Walk- Thank you so much for sharing that. There are times, usually when I have PMS and am emotional anyway, where I miss being able to give myself 100%. And that makes me wonder whether I made the right decision, you know? But you are right, that experience changed me, and I would have that fear no matter who I was with.

 

Wow, I think the last week on this forum has provided me with more peace than a year of expensive therapy, lol.

[flavius]

Thanks, Tulip. You shed the light with a nice pink glow.

 

To remain faithful you really need to have an affirmative reason to do so, but recreational sex also happens to have a strong appeal (duh:) ), so one also must have affirmative reasons to fly right, strategies to avoid infidelity.

 

Mrs Flavius isn't perfect, and she doesn't make every day a celebration of love and chastity. Same for me. I rely on higher values and religious beliefs to reinforce my will on those hard days. E.g., I look ahead to coming generations of Flavii, and want to leave an example for them that "la familia" is more important that "el Pecker." I want heatlthy kids who will have healthy relationships and raise healthy generations of noble souls. I also want to be honorable: if I took Mrs Flavius' years of youth based on my promise of faithfulness, then by golly I'm gonna deliver faithfulness. Also, I have come to treasure a clear conscience before God. I makes my spirit, soul, and body work here on earth, and I don't want a bunch of awkward silence in heaven, if you know what I mean.

 

I do get angry with cheaters, but not because I am better than them. My own rule is I will not be seen with a coworker who cheats on his wife, i won't eat lunch with him, and he's in my cube at the office, I remain standing. I reject such men for their immoral behavior, even if I might enjoy their company. I do the same with cheating females, of course. If I am out with teh guys I shamelessly run interference and stick my finger in their face -- I'm famous for the quote "No pussy for you, Dude, you're married!" The I flirt like mad and have a great time.

 

At the same time, the impulse to take what isn't mine is always there. Hell, just yesterday (St Pat's Day) I went to a bar for the celebration (I'm on the wagon, so I went as the Lent Enforcement Officer;) ) Cutest waitress I've ever seen, I won't bother you with a description. But as if her genes weren't enough to make a guy miserable, then she pulled her hair in pigtails and put on this little plastic tiara thing. Now I wasn't fantasizing about doing her, or even picturing her naked, etc. The point is that she just exuded this uncanny aura of VALUE, just someone wonderful that in a world of bland ugliness that ol' Flavius just ought to HAVE. She was a combination of a springtime breeze and a knife in the heart.

 

Time to be a man, right? You just have to examine your values and weigh the situation. Got to look past the tiara and the pigtails and the sparkling eyes and shiny hair, and look at myself. "Just who the hell am I, and who do I expect to become?" It is hard to stop and ask those questions when you're afraid that something "good" might pass you by. When deep in your primitive side you feel like you are in a mating competition, that you have some obligation to improve the world by combining your genes with hers.

 

You just have to shake yourself and wake up. I think that's the difference between a man and a lump of rotting meat in a sport coat.

 

IMHO

[JamesM]

flavius, I cannot concur with you until I know that you have gone through what many consider a "sexless" marriage. Yes, I am biased.

 

When someone is rejected for sex time after time for years, and the look received is one of contempt, then when such a situation as you described comes along, the "man" isn't as strong as he would be if there was more love and acceptance at home. I can understand that those "lumps of rotting meat in sport coats" seem to be despicable, but not all are macho jocks who are trying to express their sexual prowess. Many are good family men who happened to be in a situation they could not fathom. They hold on day after day hoping for change. They try new things, new trips, new romantic gestures, yet nothing seems to shake their wife from her doldrums. Then one day, at a weak moment, a woman approaches and says that she would like to go out to lunch. He expects nothing more, yet deep inside he appreciates this gesture of friendship. As things progress, he finds himself in a situation where he suddenly is appreciated for the man he is. She wants him to feel pleasure again. Then he realizes what he has been missing.

 

I think the kind of cheaters you find so disgusting are the kind who are perpetual cheaters. They are the ones who visit the rub & tugs for constant pleasure. These are the ones who find every woman a target for practice. They are not the ones who choose to go into a situation (which is wrong) one time and forever regret it.

 

Looking at a waitress and desiring her, then patting yourslef on the back for walking away, IMHO, is not quite the same as a man who has been rejected time and time again by his wife, then gets approached by a wman who admires and desires him again. His reserves are low, and this is the one moment he could not "cowboy up."

 

By the way, many women here would find it less than admirable and that you "flirt like mad" while you are at a bar. Personally, when I see men like that, I feel sorry for their wives who must feel that they somehow are not as beautiful as they thought. I cannot judge you for why you do it, but IMHO this can be like playing with the fire and hoping not to get burned.

 

I pray that a woman never approaches me in that manner because as I sit here today, I do not think I will always be able to easily walk away.

[travellingman]

Is paying for a hand job enough to end a marriage?

 

is getting a free one?

[flavius]

I understand what you're saying, JamesM. The extent of my sexless marriage was one year after first baby was born. Wife went post-partum psychotic & hated my guts. To add to the sting I was a grad assistant at U of Miami -- a throbbing meat market. I didn't have to live with it years on end, but I thought it was forever. It was actually that year that put the basic question in focus for me--if she never loves me again will I abandon my kids and my self over it? Or will I stick it out and make them a peaceful, happy a home to grow in? That was 14 years ago, and now that the sting has worn off, I'm glad for the crucible.

 

My point? Just because it is hard, miserable, or even painful -- it doesn't mean it isn't the very best way. I've heard you crow about how you love your wife, and I'm moved by it. So let it move you, too. Good things can happen, too, so don't lose heart. I have a friend (the one who inspired the legendary "male sex drive and female ambivalence" thread last year.) Mr & Mrs Flavius were trying to help them at the time, and I was really despairing. They have really turned the corner, though. They are doing it every week now, and they have a sack of love toys under their bed. It's not all perfect, but they are getting well, and their kids have all their clothes in one closet.

 

Just for the record, by "flirt like mad" I do not mean unrestricted sexual warfare. I just mean us boys have fun, show off, and try to get a big crowd at our table. I don't leer, don't dance with the girls, and i don't touch them. Nothing my wife wouldn't be comfortable with. In fact last night a girl sat down in my booth and leaned back on me so I made her get up. Small town, big name, family honor, 'nuff said.

[Sassy]

Yeah pretty much if my s/o paid for some type of sex from a massage parlor that would be the last straw . It is a sexual act no matter whether it was a hand job or not.

[Chump64]

With a lot of luck, anything is possible / any relationship can be repaired, if you are both 100 percent honest with each other and you are both 100 percent committed to fixing things.

 

My husband cheated on my for 10 years. I just found out 2.5 months ago. He had sex with this woman anywhere from 3-12 times / month. For ten years. I saw a suspicious email about a year ago (he denied / lied). It continued to bother me and I continued to confront him. (He still denied / lied.) I spent the next few months doing detective work so I could bust him, and did just that in January. He could no longer deny / lie.

 

We have a lot going for us. We have always been close and had a good marriage. So we are trying to work it out. There are no guarantees that it will work, but we are trying. He needs to figure out, own and fix his sh*t, though. I have so much to deal with but I am taking it day by day. I am not throwing it away for literally hundreds of sex acts -- things that we didn't even do together, even though some were things that I suggested. (Honestly, I would trade places with you in a heartbeat, not to minimize your pain.) At the same time, I did give him the option to divorce on the day that I confronted him, and if he screws me over again, I am done. "Fool me once" and all that.

 

I think the key in my case is that he is extremely remorseful, contrite, never would have left this woman to end our marriage, and is devastated by / remorseful for his own actions.

 

I have a skewed view, but obviously, I think you'd be mistaken to throw your marriage away for a handjob by a stranger. He DOES need to own up to his behavior though, and figure out the whys and hows of how he got there.

 

Good luck.

[catgirl1927]

I don't want to come across as self righteous. I can see where I may have, and after reading all of Flavius' posts I see how ugly that is.

 

It is completely different if kids are involved. I know what you mean about being made a joke, too, it's very scary. It's very easy to be as strong as I was when you don't have any children and make enough money to support yourself.

[Pink_Tulip]

Catgirl- Don't worry, you have never said anything to offend me in the slightest. I appreciate your honesty and willingness to share your story.