Visit to a rub & tug

[flavius]

Work addiction is often driven by a dark terror inside that, if I lose concentration, I'll wake up and never go back to that silly grind. Men always tell themselves they are doing it all for the Mrs, then they resent HER for it.

Maybe they never get any love because they never come home, and then they resent her for THAT. It's just dark and tangled between peoples' ears!

 

Good counseling can help sort it out. It could be that his Big Mistake humbled him to the fact that he just might be a little messed up and could stand some guidance.

 

I hope the rub-n-tug is not the deciding factor in the future of the family. I know if Mrs Flavius purchased a muff-rubbin' in a moment of marital distress I would not consider it on a par with an affair, nor even equal to a private lunch alone with a male friend. It is totally sexual, but totally impersonal. It is that fact that makes me guess that there is real or imagined sexual rejection at the root of the marriage trouble. He acted out something very strangely.

[Pink_Tulip]

Gosh, I really don't want to pull this thread off topic, but...

 

Elyssa, I see your point, but have to disagree 100%.

 

My husband provided me with a nice home, the ability to stay home with our kids, and a new minivan, etc. That wasn't enough for me. I felt it was my RIGHT in the marriage to have a husband who was plugged in on an emotional level. B/c mine pulled himself out of that loop for years, despite me talking to him and all, at a visceral level I feel justified in my emotional affair.

 

I understand a man who provides his wife all these things, including the emotional connection, etc, getting mad that she is not providing his need for a physical connection. And I would agree that it is a 'right.'

 

Its not fair to say women deserve an emotionally connected man, but men don't deserve a physically connected woman, ya know? JMO.

 

I don't think anyone on this board is saying women need to be in bed naked waiting at their husbands beck and call, but I do belieive women need to understand that this is just as important to men as an emotional connection is to women, and an effort needs to be made on BOTH ends to make sure everyones needs are met.

[flavius]

I didn't say that, SHEESH! Sometimes you extremists and verbal warmongers annoy the crap out of me.

 

(Sorry, Shocked, this is not what you came here for, is it?)

 

When Mr & Mrs Flavius wed they made a whole complex of commitments to one another, and that includes a sexual relationship. Otherwise she would have married a woman to shop with, and I would have married a man to fish with. If I alter the terms of our covenant by having other sexual liasons, or by cutting her off in the bedroom, then I have forsaken my promise, period. If Mrs Flav alters the terms of our covenant by deciding she just isn't interested in marital passion, or by humping the pool-boy, then SHE has forsaken HER promise. Period. Pretty damned complicated isn't it?

 

"It should be given freely." Absolutely right. She has no more right to deprive than I have to demand. It's about living with one heart, Elyssa, not about demanding rights and privileges. Just as our hearts and minds and earthly goods should are shared freely, sexual passion flows freely. Hot and wet and and rich and thunderous and free. It is a gift, sign, and symbol of love -- not a selfish prerogative to give or to withold.

 

There are no feminists and no chauvinists in our bedroom, lady. You make me again thank God that I married well.

[shocked-n-shaken]

well said Pink!

[Guest]

Gosh, I really don't want to pull this thread off topic, but...

 

Elyssa, I see your point, but have to disagree 100%.

 

My husband provided me with a nice home, the ability to stay home with our kids, and a new minivan, etc. That wasn't enough for me. I felt it was my RIGHT in the marriage to have a husband who was plugged in on an emotional level. B/c mine pulled himself out of that loop for years, despite me talking to him and all, at a visceral level I feel justified in my emotional affair.

 

I understand a man who provides his wife all these things, including the emotional connection, etc, getting mad that she is not providing his need for a physical connection. And I would agree that it is a 'right.'

 

Its not fair to say women deserve an emotionally connected man, but men don't deserve a physically connected woman, ya know? JMO.

 

I don't think anyone on this board is saying women need to be in bed naked waiting at their husbands beck and call, but I do belieive women need to understand that this is just as important to men as an emotional connection is to women, and an effort needs to be made on BOTH ends to make sure everyones needs are met.

 

I see your point and it scares me to think that there's women out there who feel they must repay what a husband has provided with his money with their bodies. That's just wrong.

 

So, my husband hasn't provideed any material things for me because I'm way ahead of him in life, do I still "owe" him sex? is it still his right?

 

The way I see it, if the man is taking sex from his wife knowing she does not truly want to do it and agrees to it only because she feels she's in debt with him in some twisted way, its only one step away from rape.

 

-E

[flavius]

But what about me, Shocked N Shook? I tried so hard to write an eloquent reply -- and you didn't even mention it...

 

Bless you all. I'm out!

[Guest]

 

"It should be given freely." Absolutely right. She has no more right to deprive than I have to demand. It's about living with one heart, Elyssa, not about demanding rights and privileges. Just as our hearts and minds and earthly goods should are shared freely, sexual passion flows freely. Hot and wet and and rich and thunderous and free. It is a gift, sign, and symbol of love -- not a selfish prerogative to give or to withold.

 

There are no feminists and no chauvinists in our bedroom, lady. You make me again thank God that I married well.

 

So now I'm an extremist and a feminist because I believe in a woman's choice to give herself freely?

 

I'm sorry but having sex with your husband because you feel it's his right is not FREELY!

 

For future reference, I am not the frigid wife you probably think I am, I want sex more often than my husband does (amazingly enough) and I seek him constantly for it, but if he ever even dared suggest it was his right to take it no matter if I felt like it or not, he'd find himself getting none AT ALL.

 

-E

[shocked-n-shaken]

Flavius, thank-you for your honest male perspective.

 

I truly have gained some insight in to the male thinking.

 

I agree with alot of what you are saying.

[Elyssa]

 

"It should be given freely." Absolutely right. She has no more right to deprive than I have to demand. It's about living with one heart, Elyssa, not about demanding rights and privileges. Just as our hearts and minds and earthly goods should are shared freely, sexual passion flows freely. Hot and wet and and rich and thunderous and free. It is a gift, sign, and symbol of love -- not a selfish prerogative to give or to withold.

 

There are no feminists and no chauvinists in our bedroom, lady. You make me again thank God that I married well.

 

So now I'm an extremist and a feminist and a horror of nature or somesuch nonsense because I believe in a woman's choice to give herself freely?

 

I'm sorry but having sex with your husband because you feel it's his right is not FREELY!

 

For future reference, I am not the frigid wife you probably think I am, I want sex more often than my husband does (amazingly enough) and I seek him constantly for it, but if he ever even dared suggest it was his right to take it no matter if I felt like it or not, he'd find himself getting none AT ALL. Period.

 

I feel pity for the women who feel they must give it no matter if they have migraines, they are in a bad day of their cycle and feel crappy or they simply feel like doing something else. And shame on the man who will take it under those circumstances.

 

-E

[flavius]

So then just who are you talking to? Nobody ever suggested any of the things you're ranting about.

 

Relax. You're husband will be home soon.

[blind_otter]

I feel pity for the women who feel they must give it no matter if they have migraines, they are in a bad day of their cycle and feel crappy or they simply feel like doing something else. And shame on the man who will take it under those circumstances.

 

-E

 

Jeez....

 

Being one of the women who believes that sex is a duty that should be fulfilled, (btw - sex cures migranes, and helps with the pain) i don't want your pity. But thanks for the offer.

 

IMO both parties have duties to fulfill and I think women do say "all men want is sex" more often than they examine the reasons why they themselves withold.

 

I don't understand why this made you so reactive, as it's everyone PERSONAL DECISION what they want to do in the bedroom. Pitying other people for having different preferences that don't affect you makes about as much sense as an @sshole on my elbow.

[Elyssa]

So then just who are you talking to? Nobody ever suggested any of the things you're ranting about.

 

Relax. You're husband will be home soon.

Actually I was talking to you about the ridiculous statement you made and how you made it sound like it was unconditional that she must provide sex for you because that is her promise and has no right to deny you. But seeing how it's pointless....

 

And what was that about my husband being home soon? is that some sorry attempt at insulting me? I'm the main provider of this family so that is, at best, mildly amusing.

 

Let me guess, you also believe it's a woman's role in life to stay at home and raise their kids? *chuckles*

 

You make me glad I married somebody that wasn't stuck in the Middle Age.

 

Sorry to the OP for the hijacking of this thread. I'll wander off now

[catgirl1927]

So now I'm an extremist and a feminist and a horror of nature or somesuch nonsense because I believe in a woman's choice to give herself freely?

 

I'm sorry but having sex with your husband because you feel it's his right is not FREELY!

 

For future reference, I am not the frigid wife you probably think I am, I want sex more often than my husband does (amazingly enough) and I seek him constantly for it, but if he ever even dared suggest it was his right to take it no matter if I felt like it or not, he'd find himself getting none AT ALL. Period.

 

I feel pity for the women who feel they must give it no matter if they have migraines, they are in a bad day of their cycle and feel crappy or they simply feel like doing something else. And shame on the man who will take it under those circumstances.

 

-E

 

I get this on here all the time. If you think women are people, you are a man hater. If you think a woman should have rights, you are an extremist. If you disagree with one of these guys, you are an extremist "femenistic" idiot with no right to live. I don't know what to do about it.

[flavius]

Actually I was talking to you about the ridiculous statement you made and how you made it sound like it was unconditional that she must provide sex for you because that is her promise and has no right to deny you. But seeing how it's pointless....

 

And what was that about my husband being home soon? is that some sorry attempt at insulting me? I'm the main provider of this family so that is, at best, mildly amusing.

 

Let me guess, you also believe it's a woman's role in life to stay at home and raise their kids? *chuckles*

 

You make me glad I married somebody that wasn't stuck in the Middle Age.

 

 

Thank GOODNESS! I had thought you were serious all along. I'm too gullible:o

[blind_otter]

 

Let me guess, you also believe it's a woman's role in life to stay at home and raise their kids? *chuckles*

 

 

This is ridiculous and this is why many feminists lose credibility with me. Again, personal choice, being a mother to me is the most important job in the world. I am offended when working women act as if their SAH counterparts are somehow less than they are, or worse, that they are uneducated bumpkins who know no better.

[Elyssa]

This is ridiculous and this is why many feminists lose credibility with me. Again, personal choice, being a mother to me is the most important job in the world. I am offended when working women act as if their SAH counterparts are somehow less than they are, or worse, that they are uneducated bumpkins who know no better.

No, not at all, you missed the point I was trying to make. It's a very important job what stay-at-home moms do, and they deserve recognition for that. Dealing with kids is something I could not do easily, but then again, I don't want to either. That's all.

 

I was actually poking fun at this guy because, important a job as it may be, it's not a woman's purpose in life. Any woman is capable of so much more! Being a mother is just one of those things a woman is capable of.

 

Btw, sex doesn't cure migraines, but the chemical reaction in your body started by the orgasm can help alleviate pain (such as menstrual discomfort) In fact, migraine episodes can be triggered by an orgasm or even just sexual arousal.

 

-E

[flavius]

I get this on here all the time. If you think women are people, you are a man hater. If you think a woman should have rights, you are an extremist. If you disagree with one of these guys, you are an extremist "femenistic" idiot with no right to live.

 

CatG, you always sound so lucid, so what's got in you today? By "EXTREMISTS AND VERBAL WARMONGERS" I did not mean people who think women should have rights ( ). I meant people who attribute all sorts of vicious, stupid, and crazy notions to others (me for instance) and then pummel them for the very things they never said. For instance, the can of whup-ass you and Elyssa are gleefully emptying on me.

 

I just re-read my postings. I NEVER placed a man's prerogative above a woman's. I explicitly spelled it out, using nearly identical language for the woman's and man's expectations and obligations in marriage.

 

I am very clear and unapologetic about this point: People who marry with the mutual expectation of a permanent, exclusive sexual relationship have every right to expect that the relationship will continue to be both EXCLUSIVE AND SEXUAL.

 

Perhaps you disagree.

[catgirl1927]

Something I said was referred to as "femenistic" today, and it was implied that what I said was silly because it implied that someone was wrong in his behavior. I'm kind of defensive about feminism today. I really need a cookie and a nap, quite frankly!

 

Also, cans of whup-ass are just fun to empty sometimes!

[JamesM]

Obviously this has gotten away from the main point.

 

To those that do not think sex is a "right" of marriage, let me ask...If the wife or husband refuses to give of sex freely, then where does the other partner go? If a man or woman is required by his or her vow to stay monogamous, then why may his or her partner by virtue of refusal make him or her become celibate? If the wife or husband refuses to give of sex freely, then why is it wrong for the man or woman to go elsewhere for this satisfaction? If a man or woman goes elsewhere for sexual satisfaction and this is called forsaking the marital vows, why is it not called forsaking the marital vows when the partner refuses to give of sex freely?

 

I am sorry but I am going through this right now. I realize that I may be biased, but when my wife tells me she no longer has any interest in sex and it is not because of anything I have done, then I get perturbed that this is considered okay. Yet she certainly gets angry (and yes, rightfully so...maybe) if I were to suggest looking elsewhere for satisfaction.

 

But the point here that Elyssa makes I agree with. Sexual intimacy within the marital bonds is something thatis an expression of love, commitment and enjoyment. It should be given and not taken. It is not just a mutual release of pleasure only.

[whichwayisup]

Just a question, James...

 

If your wife started an emotional friendship with a man, would that upset you? A man who would just listen to her, hold her, be there for her on an emotional level. Could you allow that? Because you wanting to possibly go have sex with another woman just because you're not getting laid at home, IS pretty close to the same thing, if she chose to spend one on one time with a man to meet her needs, though not sexual. IS that OK to do?

 

Just an innocent question, something to think about. No harshness on my part, k.

 

I do believe when people get married, sex is a given. BUT, what if she was uncapable of having sex, due to an illness or an injury? Would you still want to go find another woman to have sex with? Or would you just learn to get by without it. Could you just masterbate, do the porn thing and still be OK? IF all you got were cuddles and kisses, would that be enough?

[JamesM]

WWIU, good question. An emotional affair is similar to a physical affair in that one partner goes elsewhere for something that is lacking.

 

Would I be upset? Yes. Would I blame myself? Yes. Knowing my wife, it would be a result of me not sitting down and being the emotional partner that I vowed that I would be. But in the same way that I should not cheat on her physically, she should not cheat on me emotionally. Interestingly enough, a physical affair is harder to handle than an emotional affair.

 

Physical disablilty regarding sex or any other need of marriage is an acceptable reason for no sex, etc. This is not what I am referring to here. My objections are when a fully capable partner REFUSES to have sex based on his or her feelings without consideration of his or her partner's needs or expectations.

[Pink_Tulip]

Walk & Shocked- first off, wanted to say thank you for sharing your stories. I really felt for so long that I was alone in that existance. I NEVER told anyone, no family or friends, about what was going on. I still loved my husband, and respected him as the father of my children. I was afraid if I did tell anyone, word would spread, and people would give him and 'attitude.' Thank goodness for anonymous internet forums.

 

Walk- do you ever have any regrets about leaving? Did you have children with your husband? If I had not had kids, staying would not have been an option. I entered into counseling only b/c of them. I love my husband, but after what has happened, I have never since been able to give myself to him 100%. There is always that part of me that has to stay protected, just in case, you know? The whole 'fool me once' deal. That makes me sad and cynical, and I wonder if I had left if I would have been able to give myself fully to the other man. I think about him sometimes and I feel a sense of loss. As I have said, bad deal all around.

 

Shocked- I went back and reread the thread as it got a bit off topic and I had forgotten some details. I saw in your initial post you found out about your husbands infedility 'not through him.' Do you mind me asking how you found out?

 

As for the off topic subject, which I find equally facinating...

 

whichway- I am intrigued by your question. However, are you asking it wanting James to assume he is not giving his wife these things? I think that would make a difference. Its like, if a man is getting plenty of sex at home, but say he wanted a kinkier kind of sex the wife was unwilling to do, does that make it ok to be upset and look eslwhere? Or is the fact that she is providing intimacy ok and now he is just being greedy? If James is doing everything he can to accomodate her and learn what her EN's are, and she acknowledges he is providing them, just simply not into sex, I think that is a different question, you know? I hope this makes sense, it sounded a lot better in my head.

 

And James- I feel sad for your situation, really wish I knew how to fix it for you. Have you read the wake up call thread? Lots of interesting info there.

[shocked-n-shaken]

Pink, sorry for the delay in replying:

 

I found out this past weekend while he was out with the guys. I was gathering our tax receipts and paying bill etc., when I came across a debit slip, I thought no way and double check the info. I still didn't believe it so I looked up the name in the yellow pages and called and was told they provide massage services to males only.

 

When my husband return home, I asked him if he thought a married visiting a rub and tug was cheating? He said definately, why do I ask? At that point I gave him the slip. He said he didn't know what that was for, I ask ok, we would call in the morning because the name really has me curious as to what one would buy from them........a few seconds passed and he said do you wan to talk about this? I reply what's to talk about you said the slip isn't yours. No point in getting upset until we know what's going on. Then he admitted it.

[LongTallSally]

 

 

Then he admitted it.

 

 

then what happened? what are you going to do?

[shocked-n-shaken]

It's that odd, I would have found that if my husband was investing emotionally in someone else more upsetting, then a physical act.

 

My husband has difficulting showing emotion and isn't real touchy feellly type.

 

Basically, it's phyical contact that leads to sex. No morning or good night kiss unless it's going somewhere.

 

I am not sure if this is the same type of situation you have with you wife, but if so I could expand on how his actions make me feel in hopes you may better things in your situation. I will share if you feel it's relevent.