The best way for men to save a marriage

[Outcast]

What you don't want is to shed your gender role and become a whining sniveling little maggot who crawls on his belly. A pet who licks boots for attention. A wailing Nancy who needs to be dressed in skirts. Though you are well deserving of the pity you'll recieve while acting like this, it's not the kind of attention you want from your mate or potential mate.

 

False, ridiculous dichotomy. Being caring, showing affection, and being open is not the same thing as being a 'whining sniveling little maggot'. I run VERY FAST from men who equate the two. People who only see the world in blacks and whites and cannot comprehend nuance and balance scare the bejabbers out of me.

[Lil Honey]

Yes, Isn't that what I'm saying?

 

Maybe I'm missing something here. Are you arguing my POV, agreeing with it, or somewhere in between?

 

I'm not arguing. I'm saying that attitude is everything in a relationship.

 

The OP changed his attitude AFTER the marriage failed. My point is that had he done some changing on his own during the marriage, it may not have failed. And yet he is surprised that his ex showed interest when he did something with himself.

 

It's possible that he was doing something when they married, he slacked off and she lost interest. Then, when he changed (or changed back) she was interested again.

 

I am always amazed at how little responsibility a person takes through a failing relationship.

 

it's sarcasm I guess.

I think it is also a brand of humor. I'm guilty once in a while as well. Of course people are different, but that shouldn't have anything to do with a person's attitude in a relationship. People (men or women) need to have the attitude to make it work.

[Kenyth]

False, ridiculous dichotomy. Being caring, showing affection, and being open is not the same thing as being a 'whining sniveling little maggot'. I run VERY FAST from men who equate the two. People who only see the world in blacks and whites and cannot comprehend nuance and balance scare the bejabbers out of me.

 

Agreed. I don't equate the two. I've been a little confused by everyones take on what I said here.

 

I think this is my problem statement:

 

"Men are being goaded into believing that women want a sensitive man that is in touch with his emotions. To most men, they think this means opening up and confiding in fears and hurts, crying, etc."

 

The bold area was my point of how not to act. The preceeding statement was made a bit carelessly and seems to imply that I believe in being cold, aloof, and uncommunicating. That isn't the case.

[Outcast]

The bold area was my point of how not to act

 

I still disagree. There's nothing wrong with confiding fears and hurts. Couples are supposed to support each other. It's the 'macho' belief that men are supposed to pretend they never fear and never are hurt that leads them into early disease and death as they attempt to stumble on in life without support. Instead of allowing their partners to support them, they turn to addictions or anger to deal with their issues - or just develop high blood pressure and heart trouble. None of which is anything remotely resembling a smart way to cope.

 

Now if you're a terminally fearful and incredibly easily-wounded person, you shouldn't be pretending to be something else because you'll probably end up being a serial killer. If you are that damaged by life that you're easily buffetted by every one of life's vagaries, then your solution is not to marry someone and pretend to be other than you are. It's to get therapy and become a healthy human. Only then ought you contemplate foisting yourself on someone else's life.

[Lil Honey]

Let's not get too carried away with generalizations, people. We all know how that can make a good discussion ugly.

 

While generalizations aren't always nice and pretty, we all do it. We've been taught since childhood to do it to group and make sense of the world. (Remember Sesame Street's Which Thing Doesn't Belong? It was a grouping exercise.)

[loony]

Ok, my advice to avoid this eternal hell with the she-devil is to not marry. I know, the idea is so brilliant that it also surprises me that nobody as far as now had the same inspiration. Why bother with a woman? There are so many great nice guys out there, hook up with them. Who says you must obey to societal conventions and be heterosexual? Be gay and merry. Enjoy the eternal bliss of a like-minded equal, no dominance anymore.

[Touche]

Yeah, Loony and what about pets..they can provide the companionship (and they don't talk back!)

[Lil Honey]

In all fairness, I agree with this:

Then he certainly didn't know what the hell he was doing. For one, that he cared about you should have been made clear. He should also have been willing to discuss the relationship problems you were having. For two, copping a hostile attitude complete with threats has nothing to do with being confident, just being angry and acting a jerk.

 

But I think this

The fact that he called you two days later and wanted you back is completely opposite to being cool and confident. Quite to the contrary, he was acting the whipped dog who want's back in.

is called being human. A human who has realized his mistake too late.

[portableversion]

Most 'straight' men have homo tenedencies anyway. According to Kinesey's research, 1/2 of the 'straight' men they interviewed admitted to mutual masturabation with another male during their teen years.

 

Considering the vehement hatred of women that Woggle et al spew, i wouldn't be surprised if they were queer deep down inside also.

[Kenyth]

Well, the *smilie* with the blinking eyes indicates sarcasm.

 

The Hoffer quote does not apply here but thanks for sharing it.

 

The last part is not explaining anything. You mentioned only two *physical* differences and conveniently left out the others. I suppose you are one of those guys who think that all men like the same things (such as beer, fast cars, sports, loud music, etc.) and that all women like the same things (such as shopping, cooking, crafts, soap operas, etc.), right?

 

I believe that men on average like beer, fast cars, sports, hunting, etc. more than women and women on average like shopping, cooking, crafts, soap operas, etc. more than men. Show me a guy who's only into scrapbooking and needlepoint and I'll show you a guy who has a big problem when it comes to male bonding.

 

I also believe that these things have very little to do with the actual grist of the thread, which is that acting confident and avoiding acting like a mewling kitten do wonders for guys and how attractive they are to women, whether married, dating, or simply flirting.

 

I also believe that your sarcasm was not all good natured and was simply meant to belittle my POV without adding any content of real value. That is being rude in my book and thus the quote applies.

 

Instead of simply picking apart my posts and attacking the pieces with requests to elaborate and sarcastic commentary, why don't you post some of your own thoughts on the matter?

[Lil Honey]

I'm outta here.

[SmoochieFace]

I believe that men on average like beer, fast cars, sports, hunting, etc. more than women and women on average like shopping, cooking, crafts, soap operas, etc. more than men. Show me a guy who's only into scrapbooking and needlepoint and I'll show you a guy who has a big problem when it comes to male bonding.

 

I also believe that these things have very little to do with the actual grist of the thread, which is that acting confident and avoiding acting like a mewling kitten do wonders for guys and how attractive they are to women, whether married, dating, or simply flirting.

 

I also believe that your sarcasm was not all good natured and was simply meant to belittle my POV without adding any content of real value. That is being rude in my book and thus the quote applies.

 

Instead of simply picking apart my posts and attacking the pieces with requests to elaborate and sarcastic commentary, why don't you post some of your own thoughts on the matter?

 

Well, to be frank, I'm getting a little tired of the BS that is being propagated here.

 

I used to be like Woggle. Definitely... especially after my XW just up and left. Things became quite difficult at home afterwards and I was full of anger just as he was (still is). I hated women and I wanted to *throw back* in their faces what my XW did to me and, by extension, what my other Xs did to me as well. I harbored the belief that all women are scum. However, the longer I held onto that belief, the angrier I became.

 

It took courage, but I allowed a good woman to get close to me. We met online and we talked and talked and talked. She helped me realise that not ALL women are scum and that there are good ones out there.

 

When she and I met, there was definite chemistry. She and I are still together and, in spite of the fact that it is a LDR, it is still going strong. I believe by letting go of my anger and resentment and lowering some of my walls to allow her in I have become happier with myself and better suited to be in a good relationship with a great woman.

 

I don't have to be an angry, condescending, resentful little bastard. I can be HUMAN and allow myself to have feelings and to be able to express them. There is nothing *unmanly* about doing this... and, contrary to what you and all those *gurus* say, most women would rather have a REAL man who is not afraid of being HUMAN.

 

My relationship is all the evidence I need. If I acted like some of these guys here I would lose her in a flash. She doesn't put up with that garbage and she shouldn't have to.

[portableversion]

is just a polite euphemism for the way men express their homo love for each other.

 

Speaking of which, why does male bonding inevitably include attacks on women? both literal and figurative??

 

Male bonding includes smacking each other's bottoms in the locker room and gang bangs on female vicitms. Every seen a porn to that effect??

[Touche]

I just don't get why a few bad apples can spoil the whole barrel for some. I mean I was married to a verbally abusive (sometimes physically abusive) domineering man. I was treated very poorly and with no respect. It didn't make me rail at the entire male population. Oh, and before that marriage there were a few bad apples as well. But I pride myself on the fact that I always looked at each new "prospect" with fresh eyes, so to speak. To me, each new man was a blank slate and I gave him the benefit of the doubt until I was proven otherwise.

 

There are many wonderful men AND women out there..why let a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch?

[Touche]

is just a polite euphemism for the way men express their homo love for each other.

 

Speaking of which, why does male bonding inevitably include attacks on women? both literal and figurative??

 

Male bonding includes smacking each other's bottoms in the locker room and gang bangs on female vicitms. Every seen a porn to that effect??

 

And what do you think a lot of female bonding is comprised of? Male bashing.

[SmoochieFace]

You would think if the behavior was offensive or crackpot, it would fail miserably.

 

Well, it obviously *failed* with Outcast here. I should think that Outcast is a fine representative of *good and decent* women who have it together and are mature. There are other women here who are also like that and probably would give you an *F* as well.

 

I suppose it depends on the *type* of women you're seeking to attract...

[Kenyth]

is just a polite euphemism for the way men express their homo love for each other.

 

Speaking of which, why does male bonding inevitably include attacks on women? both literal and figurative??

 

Male bonding includes smacking each other's bottoms in the locker room and gang bangs on female vicitms. Every seen a porn to that effect??

 

 

 

Hoo-boy! More valuable and pertinent content. Man the lifeboats! I think I'm through with our little palaver here. As a matter of fact, I know I am.

[Kenyth]

Well, it obviously *failed* with Outcast here. I should think that Outcast is a fine representative of *good and decent* women who have it together and are mature. There are other women here who are also like that and probably would give you an *F* as well.

 

I suppose it depends on the *type* of women you're seeking to attract...

 

Oh it did not! How can it fail when I'm a faceless internet entity she doesn't even know. That's just plain silly! I doubt anybody even fully understands where I'm coming from. There's been so much misconception already, I'd bet on it. When a mechanic fixes a car does everyone inquire as to the technique he used to do it? Not unless you're another mechanic. The end result is the proof of the method.

 

Also, I don't have hatred for all women. Only certain ones. I'm also not foolish enough to believe that I didn't cause some or most of my own misery, mostly through ignorance.

 

Outcast is certainly a representative of *good and decent* women. You'll note that she disagreed without attacking me or being rude. I fully respect that.

[Outcast]

First let me say I appreciate the kind words.

 

That's just the problem. The evidence thrown in my face has so far supported it. What evidence is to the contrary? I've seen nothing yet to make me change my mind.

 

Education and/or maturity should teach us that our own anecdotal experiences cannot be considered sufficient proof that any phenomenon exists. The only way to legitimately accept something as a truism (still understanding that new information may change that perspective) is to look for well-researched information about what phenomena exist.

 

Millions of people have spent years of their time devoted to looking for the truth, designing ways and means of filtering the truth from subjective opinion, and presenting their findings.

 

That anyone should consider their own anecdotal experiences superior to the collected knowledge of thousands upon thousands of people before them displays either ignorance or superbia - neither admirable qualities.

 

Every question you have and every theory you possess has already been thought of and answers sought by people who have then provided fair and balanced findings.

 

IMHO, people cause themselves no end of grief, not to mention years of wasted time following their faulty analyses and incorrect evaluations only to end up in difficulties when it is such a simple matter to hunt down good information about how life and people work and govern oneself accordingly.

[Kenyth]

Outcast,

 

You're quite welcome.

 

My opinion is certainly not etched in stone. I'm flexible. I've been to, and taken advice from, counselors. I have issues with my loved ones wreaking havok in my life around me with each other. I was told that I was too passive. Too wishy-washy. Decisiveness and setting boundaries was what I lacked and I've tried to do a bang up job since getting myself in order. It's helped cause some problems and help fix others. I think the net result wound up being positive though. One thing I've learned is that if you let people treat you like a doormat, don't be surprised when they wipe their feet on you. If people don't think you're willing to do something about it if they treat you carelessly, they're more apt to do it. You can't be scared to leave. The confidence is not an act I put on to impress. It's just the way I am now. I'm no longer averse to confrontation and a plan of action if the need arises. I'm no longer impressed by meaningless authority or marriage as an excuse to accept bad behavior.

[Outcast]

It appears that a lot of people who fear 'being treated like a doormat' think that turning aggressive and shutting down all emotion, etc. is the answer.

 

It's not. A lot of humans tend to overcorrect their problems without understanding that 'being the opposite of' is not the same thing as 'fixing the problem'.

[Kenyth]

You do get a bit of the "Pendulum" effect before you find equilibrium. I can't say for sure or not where I lie on that scale. I only know that so far things are better. I will keep on with it until I have a reason to think it isn't working anymore.