Men, if you have a crush on another woman, and your wife notices, what do you say?

[mark clemson]

Hmm. I (genuinely) wish you luck with your new fiance/marriage. However, I just don't think your brain works that way in the long term.

People change over time, and we become accustomed to stimuli - even "true love" if that is what you want to call it.

For many folks, our brains have a capacity for crushes (or the adult version - limerence). The true love you speak of might always wane. Indeed something like 1/2 of marriages fail, and of those that don't many seem to be just "enduring" without that much emotional connection.  I'm not saying there is no possibility people can be content with each other and passionate about each other longer term. However, even then there is no actual reason (beyond perhaps idealism?) to think the neural capacity for crushes/limerence to be triggered by an outsider has been somehow erased.

[Gebidozo]

12 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

However, even then there is no actual reason (beyond perhaps idealism?) to think the neural capacity for crushes/limerence to be triggered by an outsider has been somehow erased.

Let’s say that I agree and there are some purely chemical signals to have a crush on another person that we keep receiving even when we’ve been in a happy, loving relationship for many years. But in a happy, loving relationship. they are nipped in the bud so quickly and so effortlessly that a real crush or limerence will never develop. They would be akin to some sudden irrational impulse to do something outrageous and crazy, like killing a person, that we sometimes receive and then immediately discard, understanding that it’s not real. 

[NuevoYorko]

I've given it some more thought and I don't think that I am capable of having a "crush" on anybody when I'm closely involved in a romantic relationship.

I think something akin to "the hots" is possible.  And, yes, the SO might catch a vibe of that.   It would be more like an eye roll from her, and a sheepish grin from me, and that's all.

   

[mark clemson]

Hmm.I wonder if perhaps we're not using the same definition of "crush".

I am using crush to mean limerence, but I do agree/think though that there are shorter-term, less emotionally deep, and more "voluntary" infatuations that people sometimes develop. For something like that what you (Gebidozo) are saying could indeed hold true, although your (metaphorical) examples suggest you recognize that the neurological impulses (ie, attraction) are indeed still there, they are just being suppressed, rather than not having them at all.

In the early stages of "love" it's indeed easy to suppress any of that as thoughts of your partner are going to take your romantic interests quite fully. That suppression could fairly I guess be represented as "neurological" in the sense that a person simply is much more interested in their partner and their thoughts "automatically" return to them. For some folks at least, and do think the degree to which they are "truly in love" is a factor at that stage.

Relationships have a tendency to go from "romantic" to "familial" though over time (years). There might be couples where short term "crushes" are still suppressed over time at the true LTR stage (e.g. after 10+ years). However I suspect for that the vast majority, by the time love becomes familial, it wouldn't be reasonable to characterize any suppression as neurological at that point. More a matter of self-control and/or a choice (of disinterest).

For a true limerence or what you might call an "involuntary crush" situation, I don't think the examples you (Gebidozo) are thinking of apply well. But as noted it sounds like you and I are were talking about different things.

Edited July 30, 2024 by mark clemson

[Gebidozo]

2 hours ago, mark clemson said:

For a true limerence or what you might call an "involuntary crush" situation, I don't think the examples you (Gebidozo) are thinking of apply well. But as noted it sounds like you and I are were talking about different things.

But that’s the thing, I believe that it is absolutely impossible to have true limerence / involuntary crushes when you truly love your romantic partner and there are no serious problems in the relationship. Not after 1 year, not after 10 years, not after 30 years of being together.

Whenever people say they’re married but have this “uncontrollable attraction” to someone else, become all dreamy and romantic with them, talk about a great new passion even though they “love” their spouses, you can bet your money that something has been going very wrong in their relationship for a while. 

The maximum that I can imagine happening to a man who is in a happy, loving relationship is having a purely sexual reaction to some other woman. As in, “Holy mackerel, look at those voluptuous curves! Now that’s something I would’ve totally done if I were single”. Definitely nothing more romantic than that.

Edited July 31, 2024 by Gebidozo

[NuevoYorko]

4 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Hmm.I wonder if perhaps we're not using the same definition of "crush".

I am using crush to mean limerence, but I do agree/think though that there are shorter-term, less emotionally deep, and more "voluntary" infatuations that people sometimes develop.

From my POV, a crush requires active participation with the emotions.  A person needs to nurture a crush or it can't remain. When many of us are seriously committed we are not going to indulge ourselves in that kind of fantasy because it is likely destructive to the relationship.  A lot different than a wave of lust that leads to a double take or stare.   That's my experience anyway.  

[mark clemson]

So - that's where I disagree, and the neurology is a factor.

The love in a relationship going from more romantic to more familial is quite normal. It doesn't mean there's some huge flaw in the relationship or in the partners themselves. The relationship/marriage can still be quite good and satisfying to both partners etc. However, the brain is no longer "automatically" fully romantically fixated on the partner they way it might be near the beginning of a relationship. This is completely normal.

Exactly how limerence/involuntary crushes are triggered is not fully understood. But a few key points - one is they are involuntary - so they don't actually have to be deliberately nurtured. While it's a bit creepy, it's quite possible to have limerence/crushes for someone you never actually interact with, but only see. (Indeed that's a bit of a cliche with stalkers and so forth.)

One could develop limerence/a crush on someone you find attractive (finding others attractive is normal, not you, your partner's, or your relationship's "fault") who essentially just happens to be in the environment on a regular basis. E.g. someone you encounter regularly at work, school, church, gym, doing hobbies, etc, etc. Likely you talk to them, but that isn't actually a requirement.

The crush/limerence can "sneak up on you" slowly when seeing/interacting with this other person. Once it gets fully triggered it will run it's course, and involve brain changes that have similarities with OCD and addiction. You don't need to nurture it, it essentially escalates on it's own. The only thing likely to shut it off is if the other person is completely removed from your life, which in many situations isn't under one's control.

So in this sense, it's not at all a problem or fault with the relationship that "causes" or is responsible for this type of "crush".

Metaphorically, saying that "huge problems in the marriage" must have caused this is a bit like blaming a person who's been at a company for many years for being laid off in a structural layoff. They didn't actually do anything wrong, in fact they did everything right (and so stayed at the company for so long). However, now they are "expensive" relative to the company's budget, and so get canned.

Similarly a person who's done everything right in their relationship and stayed in it for 10+ years is neurologically "vulnerable" to limerence being triggered, whether they are looking for it or not. It's not really anyone's "fault" or indicative that the relationship marriage is severely problematic in some way.

Edited July 31, 2024 by mark clemson

[Gebidozo]

Just to clarify, by stating that if you have a crush on another person, something must be wrong with your relationship, I didn’t mean to blame the partner of the person who has the crush. I blame the person who has the crush. Letting or not letting a crush happen is a voluntary choice. Yes, such a choice is always triggered by problems in the  relationship, but it’s a poor (albeit widespread) way of handling them.

As for people who have crushes on people they don’t even know - obviously they need therapy. And a couple where one of the partners has a crush on someone else needs counseling. 

We can’t just say “it’s all neurological anyway” and dismiss an ethical problem on that basis. Everything is neurological. If I suddenly desire to kill a person it’s just my brain sending chemical signals, but why is it doing that to me and not to someone else? Obviously because I have deeper psychological, spiritual, ethical issues that need to be addressed.

Sorry Mark, let’s just agree to disagree😊

Edited August 1, 2024 by Gebidozo

[Acacia98]

On 7/25/2024 at 11:58 PM, mark clemson said:

I think it's possible to have a crush even if you're partnered and even if happily so. 

I'm inclined to agree.

[mark clemson]

12 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

We can’t just say “it’s all neurological anyway” and dismiss an ethical problem on that basis. Everything is neurological.

Sorry Mark, let’s just agree to disagree😊

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I would ask you to consider though - if a crush can be involuntary (and I believe it indeed can, particularly with limerence) is it fair to label the problem as relating to ethics. Everything is neurological, but there are things we can control (like acting on a crush) and things we can't. Don't feel obligated to answer, I am just putting this here for your consideration.

[Gebidozo]

2 hours ago, mark clemson said:

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I would ask you to consider though - if a crush can be involuntary (and I believe it indeed can, particularly with limerence) is it fair to label the problem as relating to ethics. Everything is neurological, but there are things we can control (like acting on a crush) and things we can't. Don't feel obligated to answer, I am just putting this here for your consideration.

I understand your point of view, but that’s exactly where we disagree. I don’t believe that crushes / limerence are involuntary. If they were, of course they wouldn’t be an ethical problem, because ethics aren’t applicable to a situation where the person is deprived of freedom of choice.

But I’ve had crushes and limerences aplenty, and I can testify that every single time I was actively nurturing them (even though I wasn’t aware of that), and every single time they were a sign of relationship troubles.

[mark clemson]

If you say so, I guess that's been your experience.

[heartwhole2]

On 7/25/2024 at 8:15 PM, Gebidozo said:

It doesn’t go away only if you cultivate it. And you cultivate it, knowingly or subconsciously, only if there are serious problems in your relationship. Having a crush on someone else becomes then a surrogate emotional outlet, a coping, defensive maneuver, an outward symptom of a disease.

When your relationship is good, when you’re happy and you truly love your partner, you can’t have a crush on anyone else. It would be an oxymoron, contradiction in terms.

I have to agree with Mark, here. I think it's naive to think that happiness and love will keep crushes away, and it also conveniently blames one partner's for your attraction to someone else . . . "I wouldn't feel this way if our marriage were better!" 

As I wrote in my own topic, my husband experiences sexsomnia, and he said another woman's name while groping me in the middle of the night. I was not surprised, and not all that threatened, because this is someone who, on paper, fits my husband's type. Of course he would find her attractive, just as there are plenty of people I find attractive (well, I'm kind of picky, so maybe not "plenty," but some number of people for sure). 

The key to a committed relationship is understanding that this will happen and having the self-awareness to recognize when it's happening to you. I've always gone out of my way to be transparent about the borderline messages my high school boyfriend has sent me over the years, and during a particularly vulnerable period when my husband had an affair and my ex happened to be single, I blocked him to remove any temptation. Now he's married with kids and we chat very occasionally. If I have a dream about my high school boyfriend, I just thank the universe for sending me some extra sexual energy and go on my way. That energy only goes into my marriage, so my husband benefits from it in a way. 

To circle back to OP's question, the dream thing was really unfortunate because I do believe in privacy, and I don't want to have to ask my husband just how attracted he is to this other person. Now with an affair under his belt and being a charming flirt, of course my hackles are always a little raised, but ultimately I have to make the choice to trust him, and to trust my own ability to be OK no matter what comes. If he were more open and less full of shame, we might be able to joke about our crushes on people, but I don't see that in our future any time soon. I think my husband thought I might ask him to quit the exercise group he knows this woman from if I found out, which is why he didn't tell me, but I'd already figured he would be attracted to her anyway. I wish he understood that transparency is so much more important to me than control. I don't need all the dirty details; I just want to know that he's self-aware and avoiding temptation.

[stillafool]

On 7/24/2024 at 8:55 PM, em2001ily said:

No, it's not - just a general question. It doesn't have to be a married guy.

Yeah, okay.

[Gebidozo]

6 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

it also conveniently blames one partner's for your attraction to someone else . . . "I wouldn't feel this way if our marriage were better!" 

I’ve made it very clear that I don’t blame anyone for their partners’ crushes. A person allows the crush to happen and then cultivates it because they aren’t entirely happy and fulfilled in their relationship. Whose fault it is is irrelevant.

 

6 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

Of course he would find her attractive, just as there are plenty of people I find attractive

I’ve also made it clear that simply finding people attractive and having a crush / infatuation / limerence / romantic feelings / passion etc. aren’t the same thing at all.

 

6 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

If I have a dream about my high school boyfriend, I just thank the universe for sending me some extra sexual energy and go on my way. That energy only goes into my marriage, so my husband benefits from it in a way.

Most of the time, dreams mean nothing. But if you’re getting sexual energy from thinking about other men, that’s no “benefit” for your husband at all. It’s very obviously a symptom of serious problems in your marriage, which you do have.

In fact, your example just illustrates my point that crushes are dangerous signs. Your husband did cheat on you. You were tempted to cheat on him. That’s nothing to laugh about or dismiss as insignificant, because it “happens to everyone”. It doesn’t.

[mark clemson]

Since this got brought up again, I'd like to note something.

When we speak of an involuntary crush, i.e. limerence, we are talking about something that is NOT a common occurrence. It goes WAY beyond normal feelings of attraction that we might have and easily discard. There were some neuroscience articles that seem to have dropped off the web that indicated the brains of people with limerence looked similar in scans with the brains of cocaine addicts.

Due to the nature of the changes - substantial, months to happen, and months to fade, normal human beings can't have limerence more than a few times in a lifetime, perhaps 3-7 times. So if one is talking about easily started and ended "crushes" that feel like and are based on normal attraction, that is actually something completely different (and more normal, and more under one's control) than limerence.

If someone's brain is truly "ready" for this (more dopamine receptors), all it really takes is the repeated/extended presence of an attractive but not attainable other person in the environment. There doesn't have to be an intent to purse the person, or even much interaction, etc.

Since "crush" is a blanket term that can mean a lot of different things, I wanted to point this out.

[mark clemson]

6 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

I have to agree with Mark, here. I think it's naive to think that happiness and love will keep crushes away

This is presumably true for both kinds ("casual"/normal and involuntary) and as you know I tend to agree. I have casually flirted with plenty of women over the course of my married life (and felt attracted to plenty more) but slept with none of them. So it does fall back on self control/choices we make.

[heartwhole2]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

This is presumably true for both kinds ("casual"/normal and involuntary) and as you know I tend to agree. I have casually flirted with plenty of women over the course of my married life (and felt attracted to plenty more) but slept with none of them. So it does fall back on self control/choices we make.

Yes, it's illogical to assert that people can't have passing attractions for other people while happily coupled. And how do all the people in poly relationships fit into this thesis? 

We're sexual creatures . . . our DNA wants us to procreate. Those instincts don't turn themselves off. It doesn't have to be a big deal. 

[Gebidozo]

4 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

Yes, it's illogical to assert that people can't have passing attractions for other people while happily coupled.

Passing attractions, yes. Not crushes, limerence, passion, romantic feelings, etc. If you’re really happily coupled, you won’t have them for anyone else but your partner.

 

7 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

And how do all the people in poly relationships fit into this thesis? 

They don’t. By definition, they aren’t having a monogamous relationship, so they probably handle crushes quite differently. I’m talking about having crushes on other people while being monogamous and committed to one partner.

 

10 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

We're sexual creatures . . . our DNA wants us to procreate. Those instincts don't turn themselves off.

No argument here. I’m a very sexual creature. My instincts are pretty much always on. I’m still not going to have a crush on anyone but my lady. 

There is no connection between having a high libido and having crushes outside of your relationship.

[mark clemson]

I could see the above IF I believed it's not possible to have an involuntary crush. I don't.

@Gebidozo have you been in a 20+ year marriage? Normal people don't stay "in love" with the same intensity after decades. Which doesn't mean one has to go seeking out crushes or similar, but nonethess to think that "only your spouse will fill your thoughts romantically always" or similar isn't very realistic. It sounds like you might have an idealized view of what a LT marriage is actually like.

Your (first, I assume) marriage ended in cheating, which you now regret, correct?

16 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

There is no connection between having a high libido and having crushes outside of your relationship.

This statement doesn't seem to make sense as written, although I suppose you mean "unless you allow them occur" or similar. Assuming that's the case, I might actually agree with you. I still however maintain one can have involuntary crushes - BUT I'd note I'm not sure it's necessary to have "high libido" or similar for one to actually occur.

Edited August 8, 2024 by mark clemson

[Gebidozo]

42 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

@Gebidozo have you been in a 20+ year marriage?

Nope. My longest relationship so far was 7 years.
 

42 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

It sounds like you might have an idealized view of what a LT marriage is actually like.

Not at all. On the contrary. I think that true love and real happiness can be found only in a small percentage of LT marriages. And in such marriages, crushes on other people are, of course, unthinkable.

 

42 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Your (first, I assume) marriage ended in cheating, which you now regret, correct?

I was married more than once. But yes, I had stretches of serial cheating in some of the relationships, which I deeply regret now.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2024 by Gebidozo

[mark clemson]

I see. I guess you will see whether your view/theory turned out to be correct in perhaps 10-15 years. Hopefully you are right, for you.

[Gebidozo]

3 hours ago, mark clemson said:

I see. I guess you will see whether your view/theory turned out to be correct in perhaps 10-15 years. Hopefully you are right, for you.

My theory is 100% correct.

If after 15 years I’m still not having crushes on other women, then my theory is correct.

If after 15 years I’m having crushes on other women, then something in my relationship has become wrong, and my theory is still correct.

[ExpatInItaly]

OP has left the chat

[mark clemson]

15 hours ago, Gebidozo said:

My theory is 100% correct.

If after 15 years I’m still not having crushes on other women, then my theory is correct.

If after 15 years I’m having crushes on other women, then something in my relationship has become wrong, and my theory is still correct.

Hmm. The "theory" I was referring to is the idea that you will still be just as enamored of your fiancee in 15 years as you are now. So, in fact, your second item above coming true would mean your theory was wrong.

You say "women" - the type of involuntary crush I'm talking about does not involve "women" - it involves a single individual woman who you become overwhelmingly interested in/mentally fixated on. It sounds like perhaps you've never experienced this. Again, for those of us who experience this, it can happen involuntarily and doesn't necessarily mean you have problems with your marriage.

You seem to have quite strong views about "love" in very LTRs and about limerence, but I think you could perhaps recognize that in truth you don't actually have experience in these areas.

Edited August 9, 2024 by mark clemson