advice on getting him to propose

[ladyinwaiting]

No offence to the many women who swear by the game-playing of The Rules, but before you put them into practice, give some serious consideration to the personality of the man you're dating. If he's successful, egotistical and up for a challenge, suddenly being Miss Nonchalant will probably hook him in nicely. If he's gentle, laid back, or just plain busy, then you'll likely just befuddle him and push him away. And let's say your absence and hard-to-getness drives him wild now and he pops a ring - how's that basis for marriage going to sustain you through decades of married life when he sees you every.single.day and the novelty of the chase has worn well and truly off? Or won't it matter, given you'll have a ring by then and you're both kinda stuck?

 

I just have any alternative tactics, and I don't claim too. Frankly, I think that if he really wants to marry you, then he will propose to you of his own free will. No tricks, no traps, no cock-teasing coyness necessary. Now, all indications are that he doesn't want to marry you *yet*. Yet is very different to never. You may have a wait on your hands till he comes round (and, true, he may never). If you don't want to wait, then your only option is to leave. But have a chat with him first and tell him what you intend to do. He may not realise how important marriage is to you - most men don't, because marriage usually isn't that important to them (at least until they get old and sick or something). But if he hears you out and still says no, then, m'dear, you have to go, for both your sakes.

[BeFree]

Regarding your post that she should not play games, that's not what anyone is sugesting and that's not what the book I sugest is about. While the title may lead you to think so, I highly recomend you read before you judge. I was given the book by my mother and I did not want to read it. I would never want to play games with my dear sweat boyfriend who I love. But I read it and dear god is it an amazing book. Since I read this book and began to follow those things I felt fit my situation, our relationship has been 100% better. No one sugest being a bitch. But we do recomend as this book does, that if you want your man to see you as his dream girl, see yourself a his dream girl. Please, before you judge read the book. It may even help you. As you are at the finally stages in your relationship before engagement and you are waiting for him to pop the question. Taking some time for yourself , may cause him to ask you sooner.

[ladyinwaiting]

Actually, I am engaged. My attitude to marriage is a little ambivalent, but he asked, and i was flattered. He asked despite me having sex with him after 4 dates, moving in after 3 months, pretty much letting him know my schedule so we can organise stuff both in advance and at the last minute, being flexible when he's late (hey, he has a horrendous job), having long conversations with him on the phone when he's away (or even when we're at work) and absolutely paying my own way every time we go out and in everything else as well (probably because I earn double, but he has the way more socially useful job). Oh, and complimenting him when I think he deserves it, which is pretty much all the time. And only ever deferring to him when I think he’s right or I just don't care. And having short hair.

 

Also, I have read the Rules. Not thoroughly, I admit, but I borrowed a friend’s copy when it was all the rage a couple of years back, mainly to see what everyone was talking about. I ended up skipping through it much of it with a mixture of amusement and indignation. “Does this crap really work?” I wondered with horror, suddenly terrified that all those negative stereotypes about bitchy, demanding women were actually true.

 

I’ve ended up discussing it with friends, male and female, on many an occasion, and the verdict is that it The Rules can work. But they are likely to work on exactly the kind of guy who is not necessarily great boyfriend or husband material. The kind of guy who loves the mystery and challenge of the chase. Now, okay, that probably defines a great many of the high achievers in the world, so if you’re after a corporate lawyer or mini-mogul than it may just work (and, who knows, maybe he’ll turn out to be a surprisingly good hubby, as focused on making the marriage as successful as everything else in his life…but maybe he’ll also work out he never really knew you, and once the gloss of victory wears off, he’s out of there). Indeed, I’ll go as far as to say that there are enough guys in the world who consider women challenges and trophies that, if you wait around long enough (and look attractive enough) you will almost certainly find some guy who’ll take the bait and marry you so thathe can think he won. But is that seriously what you want? Marriage for the sake of being married? To anyone? For the sole reason that he couldn’t fully have you unless he gave you a ring?

 

But let's say you want a companion who loves you for being ou. Let’s say that you want to forever capture the heart of the laid-back geek who absolutely adores *you* for being funny or vibrant or kind or fun. I think it’s fairly safe to say then being unavailable and standoffish will probably just give him the message that you’re just not into him (best case scenario) or lead him to conclude you’re inconsiderate and self absorbed and not at all what he thought (probably far more likely). Unfortunately, this is the exact kind of guy who would eventually make a lovely partner (and, if you are so inclined, father), but using the Rules just ain’t gonna work.

 

Moreover, most men with any degree of intuition or understanding of human relationships (or who simply read for general interest, or have female friends) are now either aware of The Rules anyway, and recognize it for the manipulative marriage trap it is. Either that, or they will be insightful enough to pick up on the meaning behind the tactics (I mean, hey, the women using them are *lying and deceiving* and that is always caught out). Ask some educated male friends who read the newspaper – most can cite at least a couple of The Rules, and probably tell a horror story to go with them. Now, some they may agree with. Most men want their girlfriend to have a life so they can too. Almost all would not date a girl who slept with them on the first date. Appearance matters. Probably a majority would say that a woman calling the man after the first date is probably a turn off because it makes her look desperate (why is she so into *me*? What’s wrong with her?!). But if she didn’t return his call, most would take the hint and back off so that they aren’t charged with stalking. And a woman who leaves her answering machine on when she’s at home? “Wow, psycho.”

 

I’m not bucketing The Rules as a course in how to get married. Sadly, it seems that it works quite effectively in that capacity. I am, however, bucketing it as a one way ticket to happiness for one and all, or even for most. Unless all the women reading it want is to get married to anyone, for any reason, and under any pretenses, anyway. And I find that desire, in this day and age, to be very sad.

[BeFree]

The Book is not the Rules. I dislike that book and would never recomend it. It called "why men love Bitches"

[CanadianLady]

Dearest ou812,

 

As a fellow marriage-minded woman, I must say congrats to you for not shying away from what you know to be the most important thing that makes life challenging, fulfilling, intimate and complete - marriage.

 

I know, it's not easy understanding why some men tie the knot and some don't, and I'd like to make it easier on you and on any woman out there who feels "stuck" - not wanting to pressure her man but not wanting the relationship to remain stagnant forever. I should know... my boyfriend proposed to me a month ago - we had been dating for ten months. (Note: we worked together for five months before we started to date).

 

 

From the way you describe your relationship with your boyfriend, it sounds like:

 

a) He's not ready... yet; He spends a lot of time with men whose marriages didn't work, which may be a big factor in his reluctance to marry

b) You're always there for him (Is your nickname "Old Faithful"?)

c) He feels no need to make this arrangement permanent

 

Contrary to what other people have been advising you, there IS something you can do about this lil' problem. In fact, there are many things you can do. In an earlier post you mentioned strategies such as "don't be so available" and "stop cooking and cleaning for him".

 

Bingo.

 

When my now-fiance and I first met and word got around to him that I cook (I work part-time as a pastry chef), he immediately started asking me to cook for him (we happened to live on the same block and he's a typical bachelor... the only things in his fridge are ketchup, mustard and beer). I thought to myself, "this guy has husband potential... I had better not mess this up!". For weeks he kept asking me to cook for him. So finally I thought, "here's my chance to wow him". What did I do?

 

I showed up at the office with a container of stale rice pilaf that had been sitting in my fridge for nearly two weeks. Had it been a day older, it would have developed mould. You should have seen his face when I very sweetly handed him the container, along with a plastic fork and a styrofoam cup of room-temperature apple juice "to wash it down". He forced down the "meal" and mumbled a thank you, and then (for some strange reason) continued to badger me to cook for him. He does it to this very day.

 

Now, in the last ten months that we have been a couple (thus, he has been badgering me to cook for him for a total of one year and three months), I have "cooked" for him on three separate occasions: Once for our 6-month anniversary (grilled cheese), once for his birthday (this time a real feast, the lucky boy), and I once made two pbj sandwiches for a picnic date we had. And that's it. I casually told him I'd rather not do the Domestic Goddess thing unless and until I'm someone's official "Mrs. Domestic Goddess". Does he pout? Yes. But it makes him think I've got a good thing going and he therefore wants to try even harder to "win me over" so that I'll one day put a hot meal in front of him again. (Now that we're engaged I still don't cook for him, but every so often I'll call him up and say, "sweetie, would you like to come over to my place for a hot dinner?" and then proceed to order a pizza. Other times I'll let him take leftovers from my fridge.)

 

Since you've set up a pattern of cooking for him, I must gently suggest you STOP IT RIGHT NOW!! The payoff?

 

1. Less work for you - woohoo! (And more time to spend with your daughter)

2. More respect from him. Suddenly he's not getting "something for nothing", and your efforts become much more valuable in his eyes.

3. He will immediately notice, and will either think to himself, "now that the free ride is over, I don't want her anymore" (in which case, you don't want him either!) or "Uh-oh... something is up. I had better get my act together" (which doesn't equal an instant proposal, but it will make him treat you much better and want you more). In any case, you'll have an instant answer: either he wants you as his woman or he wants you as his housekeeper/chef/mother. (This also goes for the cleaning and laundry thing - you definitely need to ixnay that, pronto. Girl, you are not his laundry wench!)

 

I'm not suggesting you NEVER cook for him. Just stop trying so hard to "please him". Does a man's love come from his stomach? To a large degree, yes. But a man will eat *anything* that's warm and not moving. It doesn't matter whether you made it or had it ordered from "Wong's Takeout". Anything that requires very little thought, energy and effort is perfect. Suggest eating out more. Or hand him a bowl of pretzels (men love pretzels). Or, you can get him to cook for you! (Practice saying, "mmmm, honey, these nachos with cheese whiz are AMAZING!" in a convincing voice.)

 

You've already done a brave and VERY smart thing by not agreeing to live with him before marriage (don't *ever* make that mistake! And to any woman who IS living with a man and can't get him to propose, immediately start looking for your own place. Just tell him you "need a little space" and he'll realize he has to get shaking before he loses you).

 

You don't need to go as far as taking up an extreme sport in order to get him to wake up (unless you want to... in which case, You Go Girl!). Anything will do, as long as you become busier and more interested in what's going on in *your* life. It could be knitting, or candle-making, or mother-daughter Irish folk dancing. Anything. As long as you've got a busy, active life that's interesting *to you*, YOU will become more interesting *to him*. While I was dating my now-fiance, I joined a gym, a jazz ensemble and a synagogue committee, and took up painting (though not all at once). Each time I took on something new, I had more things to talk about and more places to be, and he missed me more and became more interested in me (even though he's not really into jazz music or painting).

 

The "cosmo tips" posted earlier are totally on-target, because they encourage you to live an active, independent life and remind him (subtly) that he's not the centre of your universe. This, ultimately, will make him want to be the centre of your universe!

 

Here are a few more "strategies" I used that any woman can apply (to some degree or another) to the man in her life, in order to get him over that little "hurdle":

 

-I "accidentally" let him overhear me say to a friend on the phone that I was thinking about renewing my apartment lease for a 3-year contract. Even though I was hoping he'd propose within the year, I acted as if my life plans did not revolve around him.

-I dated other people when we were first dating, until he brought up (and insisted on) exclusivity.

-I didn't let him see me at the last minute - he had to have asked me out 1-2 days in advance, which made him miss me when I occassionally turned him down for a date. This is hard, since I live very conveniently down the street from him.

-I didn't always pick up the phone when I was home. (I still don't.) I have voicemail!

-Once in a while I'll go away for a weekend without him. I don't have a lot of money so it's never an exotic weeklong vacation in Bora Bora with my girlfriends; but once every two months or so, I'll casually tell him on a Thursday that I'm going to visit family for the weekend. Then the next day I'll head off to my parents' place (they live an hour and a half away) or my cousin's place (30 minutes east, in good traffic), or visit my uncle's family (5 hours by train). Wherever - the point is that I'm gone for a weekend and he misses me. And when a man misses his woman, that's VERY good for the relationship!!! (I also have a better relationship with my family as a result.) This strategy is especially good when he's been not-so-nice.

-Once when he was 50 minutes (!) late for a date, I wasn't there when he came to pick me up. I waited exactly 30 minutes, then I made other plans and left. I didn't demand he value my time, I didn't get mad, and I didn't scold him. I just later told him, very sweetly, that I wasn't into waiting around for people. Since then he has never been more than 10 minutes late for anything with me (and this guy has a MAJOR lateness problem, so for him it's a big show of effort).

-I didn't (and don't) call very often. Usually when I call it's to return his call. Or I'll call sometimes when I know he's not home and leave a super-short and sweet message.

-Whenever he brought up marriage, children, or "the relationship", I'd act casual and even tease him about "pressuring me for a commitment" or joking, "you should be so lucky". I didn't act marriage-obsessed (even though I am). I acted "ready for commitment, but not desperate".

-I put a limit to our physical intimacy (no sex before marriage). Many women won't have sex with a man until marriage (the ideal situation), or will date a guy for *at least* several months before having sex. This is excellent!! Is it "using sex as a bargaining chip or a weapon"? Absolutely not. It is called valuing and respecting your body, and allowing him to respect you in the process. It is called slowing down the "race to the bedroom" so that he has the time to fully appreciate who you are before getting to be intimate with you. It is viewing sex and sexuality as the ultimate expression of love and commitment between two people - an attitude he will gradually adopt if you allow him the thrill and anticipation of slowly falling for you *before* getting to experience your most intimate, private self. Never, ever, ever sell yourself short in this area. Your sexuality is a G-d-given gift, a thing of beauty, and you should protect its sanctity for the intimacy of an exclusive, loving, committed relationship (marriage, at best!).

 

 

Any of these actions serve to draw him closer to you because they let him know, without pressuring or "talking it over", that:

 

a) you love yourself

b) your time and attention are valuable

c) you don't chase men (they chase you) and you give them their space

d) you are a catch, and any man would be lucky to have you... forever.

 

Finally, only date men who are marriage-minded. If you've been applying the above advice for a few months, and he still says he doesn't want to marry you, listen to him. Tell him it's been fun, and wish him luck. There is someone out there who will want you as his wife, and you shouldn't get held back waiting for someone who has decided not to marry you. You're worth more than that!

 

Wishing you success in your endeavour and lifelong happiness,

 

Shia

 

p.s., I know this has been a long (and very informative) post, but I thought I'd recommend a few books which have helped me tremendously in understanding men and relationships. You must read them, because the wisdom you will gain will help you not only with your boyfriend, but with your future husband and family (and ultimately, yourself). They are:

 

1) "The Rules", by Ellen Fein and Sherrie Schneider (old fashioned, but they work - I know because I did them!)

 

2) "Why Men Love Bitches", by Sherry Argov (a straightforward and hilariously funny "user's manual" on men, and the mistakes women tend to make in relationships)

 

3) "Kosher Sex", by Shmuley Boteach (An illuminating and insightful book about the potential spiritual depth and power of sex, and its place in your relationship)

 

4) "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus", by John Gray (the cliche of relationship books, yes, but it's advice from a man, and will show you how to make your relationship solid. Also check out "Mars and Venus on a Date", which shows you how to navigate your relationship through each level, from the very first dates to "commitment time")

 

 

I must say that this is the most insightful and motivating post that I ever read regarding the matter. Thank you for taking the time to write it and share with others and me!

 

:-)

Marie

[BrideToBe]

Thank you for your comments, Marie. I'm so glad it helped.

 

And to ladyinwaiting:

 

I'm not saying that NO man will marry a woman who sleeps with him quickly and whose life is transparent, who will move in with him right away and always be available. I'm saying that the vast majority of men want a woman who has confidence and independence, who will not make her world revolve around a man.

 

My advice had nothing to do with playing games, and everything to do with having a life, and dating with self-respect. Did I say, "act uninterested in him"? No. Did I say, "be demanding and bitchy"? On the contrary - a man wants an easygoing woman - but NOT a woman who is too easy to get. That's the difference between a lighthearted, no-pressure attitude, and letting someone have you, fully, without first having to commit himself.

 

In other words, you are not a Dodge Durango - don't let a man "test drive" you.

 

You suggested that it depends on the type of man you are dealing with.

 

This is false.

 

A man's nature is a man's nature. Whether he's the corporate type or the lazy type, the funny geeky type or the balls-out football player type: A man is thrilled by the chase - it's in his genetic makeup. And a man who really wants you WILL pursue you, no matter how busy he is.

 

Example, my fiancee is the CEO of a small distribution company. He also plays hockey twice a week and is actively involved with his synagogue. He's the busiest person I've ever met. But he still makes time to call me, to take me out, etc. He barely has time to eat, yet his being busy is not a factor, because he is crazy about me. Note that he's also a gentle, laid-back guy who gets asked out by lots of women, so he's not used to having to pursue one. I didn't trap him or "cock-tease" him, but I focused on living my life, my way.

 

Don't conflate the man who appreciates a challenge with some trophy wife-hunting sleaze. Every man, no matter how sweet and nice, wants to WANT his woman. There is a drive in every man, at the animal level - the instinctual level - to pursue what he desires.

 

Will the thrill of the chase wear off in marriage? To some degree, yes. But I don't intend to wait on my man hand and foot once we're married. I don't intend to give up my life to be his live-in maid. In marriage it is especially important to have a life OUTSIDE of the relationship in order to keep things fresh, and to "bring something to the table", so to speak. That doesn't mean being deceptive and sneaking around. It means doing your own thing from time to time, not always being there when he expects you to be home, not calling him five times a day when he's at work, and not preparing a five-course dinner every night.

 

"But let's say you want a companion who loves you for being you. Let’s say that you want to forever capture the heart of the laid-back geek who absolutely adores *you* for being funny or vibrant or kind or fun."

 

What's the best way to do this? Let him fall in love with you - funny, vibrant, kind, fun you - before he sleeps with you. I'm so glad I let my sweet, funny, sentimental guy fall in love with me first. When we do finally have sex, he'll have me - all of me - because he sees me for who I am and wants me for the rest of his life. I never pretended to be someone I'm not, and I never lied or played with his heart. But I value and respect and love myself, and in turn he values and respects and loves me.

 

What more could a woman (and her man) want?

[BeFree]

What another great post to add to your first. The rest of us know what you meant and we all agree. Unfortunately the book I sugest states all of the things you teach, But it comes with a bad title. Since I started doing all those things, making my man chase me, my relationship has been amazing. Thanks again for all you wonderful insight. Everyone could truly learn from this information.

[BrideToBe]

Thanks Befree!

 

It's like magic, isn't it? At least, it seems that way to us, because it's somewhat counterintuitive for a woman to hold back and not "give it her all" with a man she likes. But it works like a charm. ;-)

[Guest]

well we've been together for 4 years but three of them we've been living together he says he wants to get married, and he wants to spend the rest of his life with me, (been saying that for a yr) he knows i want to, so i don't nag i keep quiet, but every 4/5mths i say when i just get soon, when the hell is soon, i am tired of waiting but that doesnt mean i dont want to be with him...whats my options?

[guest]

But why, exactly? What is different about the state of marriage than you are in now?

Take the hint here. He's being very clear to you, so bringing it up again and again will only drive him away.

 

Look if he is not going to overcome his fear for her then where is the love, i want to get married i've been living with my boyfriend for 3 years and a woman can only wait so long relationship = compromise...she needs to wait but he needs to work at his problem with marraige and get over it. why cant she want to get married? stop asking her why and ask him whats he doing to get over it.

[Guest]

Funny, I think it's a bit pathetic that she's so insistent on it. But hey, that's just a guy's opinion...

oh please why is he so insistent on not doing anything about his fear and actually just marring the little lady. relation=compromise hey if she must wait then he should also try work at what he really is affraid of!!!!!!!

[brightskies]

BrideToBe,

 

Your post was funny and enlightening! It looks like you've got a good head on your shoulders. I do have some frank questions:

 

When you go out on dates, do you take turns paying or does he pay for everything? Have you ever invited him out or do you let him initiate dates always? How did this work BEFORE you became exclusive? How did this work AFTER you became exclusive?

 

How far do you limit your physical intimacy? Do you stop at just kissing? Or, do you do everything except actual intercourse? (This is a genuine question, I'm not just trying to be nosey!)

 

Would you recommend going away on vacations together before or after being engaged? Or not at all?

 

If so, how did you handle lodging arrangements, etc. Meaning, did you ever share a room but not have sex with him? Or would you simply have separate rooms? And how do you handle the bill?

 

How can you tell if a man is genuinely marriage-minded, or if he's the kind of guy who occasionally brings up marriage (it happens!) as a tactic to convince you to sleep with him?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

Dearest ou812,

 

As a fellow marriage-minded woman, I must say congrats to you for not shying away from what you know to be the most important thing that makes life challenging, fulfilling, intimate and complete - marriage.

 

I know, it's not easy understanding why some men tie the knot and some don't, and I'd like to make it easier on you and on any woman out there who feels "stuck" - not wanting to pressure her man but not wanting the relationship to remain stagnant forever. I should know... my boyfriend proposed to me a month ago - we had been dating for ten months. (Note: we worked together for five months before we started to date).

 

 

From the way you describe your relationship with your boyfriend, it sounds like:

 

a) He's not ready... yet; He spends a lot of time with men whose marriages didn't work, which may be a big factor in his reluctance to marry

b) You're always there for him (Is your nickname "Old Faithful"?)

c) He feels no need to make this arrangement permanent

 

Contrary to what other people have been advising you, there IS something you can do about this lil' problem. In fact, there are many things you can do. In an earlier post you mentioned strategies such as "don't be so available" and "stop cooking and cleaning for him".

 

Bingo.

 

When my now-fiance and I first met and word got around to him that I cook (I work part-time as a pastry chef), he immediately started asking me to cook for him (we happened to live on the same block and he's a typical bachelor... the only things in his fridge are ketchup, mustard and beer). I thought to myself, "this guy has husband potential... I had better not mess this up!". For weeks he kept asking me to cook for him. So finally I thought, "here's my chance to wow him". What did I do?

 

I showed up at the office with a container of stale rice pilaf that had been sitting in my fridge for nearly two weeks. Had it been a day older, it would have developed mould. You should have seen his face when I very sweetly handed him the container, along with a plastic fork and a styrofoam cup of room-temperature apple juice "to wash it down". He forced down the "meal" and mumbled a thank you, and then (for some strange reason) continued to badger me to cook for him. He does it to this very day.

 

Now, in the last ten months that we have been a couple (thus, he has been badgering me to cook for him for a total of one year and three months), I have "cooked" for him on three separate occasions: Once for our 6-month anniversary (grilled cheese), once for his birthday (this time a real feast, the lucky boy), and I once made two pbj sandwiches for a picnic date we had. And that's it. I casually told him I'd rather not do the Domestic Goddess thing unless and until I'm someone's official "Mrs. Domestic Goddess". Does he pout? Yes. But it makes him think I've got a good thing going and he therefore wants to try even harder to "win me over" so that I'll one day put a hot meal in front of him again. (Now that we're engaged I still don't cook for him, but every so often I'll call him up and say, "sweetie, would you like to come over to my place for a hot dinner?" and then proceed to order a pizza. Other times I'll let him take leftovers from my fridge.)

 

Since you've set up a pattern of cooking for him, I must gently suggest you STOP IT RIGHT NOW!! The payoff?

 

1. Less work for you - woohoo! (And more time to spend with your daughter)

2. More respect from him. Suddenly he's not getting "something for nothing", and your efforts become much more valuable in his eyes.

3. He will immediately notice, and will either think to himself, "now that the free ride is over, I don't want her anymore" (in which case, you don't want him either!) or "Uh-oh... something is up. I had better get my act together" (which doesn't equal an instant proposal, but it will make him treat you much better and want you more). In any case, you'll have an instant answer: either he wants you as his woman or he wants you as his housekeeper/chef/mother. (This also goes for the cleaning and laundry thing - you definitely need to ixnay that, pronto. Girl, you are not his laundry wench!)

 

I'm not suggesting you NEVER cook for him. Just stop trying so hard to "please him". Does a man's love come from his stomach? To a large degree, yes. But a man will eat *anything* that's warm and not moving. It doesn't matter whether you made it or had it ordered from "Wong's Takeout". Anything that requires very little thought, energy and effort is perfect. Suggest eating out more. Or hand him a bowl of pretzels (men love pretzels). Or, you can get him to cook for you! (Practice saying, "mmmm, honey, these nachos with cheese whiz are AMAZING!" in a convincing voice.)

 

You've already done a brave and VERY smart thing by not agreeing to live with him before marriage (don't *ever* make that mistake! And to any woman who IS living with a man and can't get him to propose, immediately start looking for your own place. Just tell him you "need a little space" and he'll realize he has to get shaking before he loses you).

 

You don't need to go as far as taking up an extreme sport in order to get him to wake up (unless you want to... in which case, You Go Girl!). Anything will do, as long as you become busier and more interested in what's going on in *your* life. It could be knitting, or candle-making, or mother-daughter Irish folk dancing. Anything. As long as you've got a busy, active life that's interesting *to you*, YOU will become more interesting *to him*. While I was dating my now-fiance, I joined a gym, a jazz ensemble and a synagogue committee, and took up painting (though not all at once). Each time I took on something new, I had more things to talk about and more places to be, and he missed me more and became more interested in me (even though he's not really into jazz music or painting).

 

The "cosmo tips" posted earlier are totally on-target, because they encourage you to live an active, independent life and remind him (subtly) that he's not the centre of your universe. This, ultimately, will make him want to be the centre of your universe!

 

Here are a few more "strategies" I used that any woman can apply (to some degree or another) to the man in her life, in order to get him over that little "hurdle":

 

-I "accidentally" let him overhear me say to a friend on the phone that I was thinking about renewing my apartment lease for a 3-year contract. Even though I was hoping he'd propose within the year, I acted as if my life plans did not revolve around him.

-I dated other people when we were first dating, until he brought up (and insisted on) exclusivity.

-I didn't let him see me at the last minute - he had to have asked me out 1-2 days in advance, which made him miss me when I occassionally turned him down for a date. This is hard, since I live very conveniently down the street from him.

-I didn't always pick up the phone when I was home. (I still don't.) I have voicemail!

-Once in a while I'll go away for a weekend without him. I don't have a lot of money so it's never an exotic weeklong vacation in Bora Bora with my girlfriends; but once every two months or so, I'll casually tell him on a Thursday that I'm going to visit family for the weekend. Then the next day I'll head off to my parents' place (they live an hour and a half away) or my cousin's place (30 minutes east, in good traffic), or visit my uncle's family (5 hours by train). Wherever - the point is that I'm gone for a weekend and he misses me. And when a man misses his woman, that's VERY good for the relationship!!! (I also have a better relationship with my family as a result.) This strategy is especially good when he's been not-so-nice.

-Once when he was 50 minutes (!) late for a date, I wasn't there when he came to pick me up. I waited exactly 30 minutes, then I made other plans and left. I didn't demand he value my time, I didn't get mad, and I didn't scold him. I just later told him, very sweetly, that I wasn't into waiting around for people. Since then he has never been more than 10 minutes late for anything with me (and this guy has a MAJOR lateness problem, so for him it's a big show of effort).

-I didn't (and don't) call very often. Usually when I call it's to return his call. Or I'll call sometimes when I know he's not home and leave a super-short and sweet message.

-Whenever he brought up marriage, children, or "the relationship", I'd act casual and even tease him about "pressuring me for a commitment" or joking, "you should be so lucky". I didn't act marriage-obsessed (even though I am). I acted "ready for commitment, but not desperate".

-I put a limit to our physical intimacy (no sex before marriage). Many women won't have sex with a man until marriage (the ideal situation), or will date a guy for *at least* several months before having sex. This is excellent!! Is it "using sex as a bargaining chip or a weapon"? Absolutely not. It is called valuing and respecting your body, and allowing him to respect you in the process. It is called slowing down the "race to the bedroom" so that he has the time to fully appreciate who you are before getting to be intimate with you. It is viewing sex and sexuality as the ultimate expression of love and commitment between two people - an attitude he will gradually adopt if you allow him the thrill and anticipation of slowly falling for you *before* getting to experience your most intimate, private self. Never, ever, ever sell yourself short in this area. Your sexuality is a G-d-given gift, a thing of beauty, and you should protect its sanctity for the intimacy of an exclusive, loving, committed relationship (marriage, at best!).

 

 

Any of these actions serve to draw him closer to you because they let him know, without pressuring or "talking it over", that:

 

a) you love yourself

b) your time and attention are valuable

c) you don't chase men (they chase you) and you give them their space

d) you are a catch, and any man would be lucky to have you... forever.

 

Finally, only date men who are marriage-minded. If you've been applying the above advice for a few months, and he still says he doesn't want to marry you, listen to him. Tell him it's been fun, and wish him luck. There is someone out there who will want you as his wife, and you shouldn't get held back waiting for someone who has decided not to marry you. You're worth more than that!

 

Wishing you success in your endeavour and lifelong happiness,

 

Shia

 

p.s., I know this has been a long (and very informative) post, but I thought I'd recommend a few books which have helped me tremendously in understanding men and relationships. You must read them, because the wisdom you will gain will help you not only with your boyfriend, but with your future husband and family (and ultimately, yourself). They are:

 

1) "The Rules", by Ellen Fein and Sherrie Schneider (old fashioned, but they work - I know because I did them!)

 

2) "Why Men Love Bitches", by Sherry Argov (a straightforward and hilariously funny "user's manual" on men, and the mistakes women tend to make in relationships)

 

3) "Kosher Sex", by Shmuley Boteach (An illuminating and insightful book about the potential spiritual depth and power of sex, and its place in your relationship)

 

4) "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus", by John Gray (the cliche of relationship books, yes, but it's advice from a man, and will show you how to make your relationship solid. Also check out "Mars and Venus on a Date", which shows you how to navigate your relationship through each level, from the very first dates to "commitment time")

[BrideToBe]

Hi Brightskies Your questions are important, thanks for asking them. I can't say I have all the answers, but I'll do my best to answer candidly and honestly.

 

 

When you go out on dates, do you take turns paying or does he pay for everything? Have you ever invited him out or do you let him initiate dates always? How did this work BEFORE you became exclusive? How did this work AFTER you became exclusive?

 

He works full-time and is financially very successful, and I am a full-time student and financially, ummmm, "lean", so he pays for the vast majority of our dates. However, I don't EXPECT him to pay, so I always try to have cash on hand (for cabs, change, etc), and once in a while I'll pay for the date, or at least part of the date (he'll buy the movie tickets while I buy the snacks kind of thing). I ALWAYS acknowledge when he pays, and thank him every time. This applies to both before and after exclusivity, but especially after (when those kindnesses get taken for granted). After having become exclusive and having dated for a few months, I began to *occasionally* initiate dates. I still let him ask me out 90% of the time.

 

How far do you limit your physical intimacy? Do you stop at just kissing? Or, do you do everything except actual intercourse? (This is a genuine question, I'm not just trying to be nosey!)

 

That's an excellent question. In my case, I've limited intimacy to holding hands, hugging, cuddling, and kissing on the cheek (no lips). I've never even seen him without his shirt! However, in my community (we're very religious), this is not at all unheard of. And yes, it's VERY difficult and VERY frustrating at times - but I wouldn't have it any other way. There's something to be said for anticipation, you know? The more we save for the wedding night, the more intense it will be.

 

Note that, since he wasn't raised in a religious community, being with someone for this long and not even kissing isn't "normal" to him at all - but he reluctantly accepted it because he saw a lot of potential for marriage in our relationship. So I would argue that you don't have to have a religious affiliation in order to "back up" the choice to be abstinent (even if you're just "partially abstinent") before marriage/engagement. It's a personal decision, because no matter which religion you profess, your sexuality is a thing of beauty that should never be demoted to a "fun pastime" for casual relationships. Look at Shmuley Boteach's fantastic book, "Kosher Sex", for more on this topic.

 

Would you recommend going away on vacations together before or after being engaged? Or not at all?

 

If so, how did you handle lodging arrangements, etc. Meaning, did you ever share a room but not have sex with him? Or would you simply have separate rooms? And how do you handle the bill?

 

Going on vacations together can be an excellent way to bond if you're serious about each other, but I'd never go away with him for more than 3 days (a weekend) at a time, because A) I have a lot going on, B) I won't totally pull myself away from my life for him, and C) There is such a thing as too much togetherness... especially in the dating stage.

 

I've gone on *one* vacation with my fiancee before we got engaged - it was just a weekend and we had separate hotel rooms. We also didn't spend all of our time together... I went to the gym and had "alone time" for a few hours while I let him do his own thing. That made it even more fun because we were excited to reunite for dinner that evening - a little time apart is so good for relationships! I payed for my own hotel room but he took care of the train tickets, in exchange for a half-hour (shirt-on) massage. Lol!

 

I figured that if he wanted to have me to himself for more than 3 days at a time, he'd have to propose (though I never actually told him this... men will figure these things out for themselves eventually!).

 

How can you tell if a man is genuinely marriage-minded, or if he's the kind of guy who occasionally brings up marriage (it happens!) as a tactic to convince you to sleep with him?

 

Some men will drop references to the future ALL THE TIME. It comes naturally, and they only think about whether they really mean it *after* the fact. So ignore him if he says things like, "next winter we can go skiing in Vermont", ESPECIALLY if you haven't been dating very long. A truly marriage-minded man will talk *directly* about marriage, children, etc (but so will some cads who just want to get into your pants). It's hard telling the difference early on in a relationship.

 

That said, someone who is serious about marriage won't bolt if you tell him you're limiting intimacy until after marriage, especially if the only thing you do for a month or two is hold hands. And imagine how much more deeply you'll get to know and understand each other if all you can really do together is talk! In this case, even someone who was initially after your body will have been forced to slow down and see who you truly are. If, on the other hand, he's a quality man, a woman who doesn't "give it up" easily is a breath of fresh air to him. In either case, you can't lose.

[brightskies]

Hi BrideToBe,

 

Wow, thanks for all your advice! I find that a lot of what you mentioned is true. It's hard to do, but holding your ground really helps weed out the players. It's tough to navigate dating with marriage in mind, especially when you and your guy have different ideas on sexuality. I've read some of the books that you listed before. They're been really good for helping to keep things in perpective and not be so anxious about dating. I'll also check out Kosher Sex.

[MrsHellFire]

The guy probably has no plans for marriage and maybe just doesn't want to. Only way he might propose is if he loves you and feels if he doesn't, he will lose you.

 

But you shouldn't have to plot a way to get him to propose. What kind of marriage will that be if you have to trick or manipulate him to marry you?

[KonRyuu]

uhhh.....while he's sleeping.....whisper the words over and over in his ear, you want to marry (your name). after a while, in his mind it might be put there. Like people learning languages in their sleep, same thing. LOL. other than that, I ainta gota no idea.

[MusicWoman]

bridetobe...are you just not kissing him on the lips...or have you really gone your whole life without a kiss? wow...you have more self control than me!! nice job..haha

 

And i love the comment about not taking a woman for a test drive

[BrideToBe]

Musicwoman,

 

No, I've for sure been kissed (many times, hahah) before when I was young and not dating for the "real deal" (though to be honest, I kinda wish I hadn't). And the fiancee and I are not perfect - we have kissed a couple of times before (once a few months into the dating, and once after we got engaged), but the general rule is that we don't - and we've grown to enjoy the wait - there's a lot of anticipation towards the wedding night!

 

B2B

[Walk]

I've got a slightly different perspective on this discussion, if you don't mind. I'm not religious, I love sex, and I'm not going to give up something that brings me happiness in a relationship so that I can regress to hand holding.

 

In my experience, men don't want their laundry done, or cooking. They can order pizza just as well as we can. It comes down to, how badly do you want to fulfill their wants and desires. Both sexually and emotionally. I think part of the fear of commitment in men stems from the fact that they feel they will have to give up all those fantasy's/desires that they have. It's beat into their head that once they're married, sex goes away. Even in the case of the poster who hasn't had sex, after a year or so, she may decide she doesnt' like it, or doesn't want it much, or only certain ways. Then her husband loses out on something he truly desires, enjoys, and makes him feel closer to her. She's never shown him that his desires are a top priority to her. All she's done is prove that she is independent and things will be her way. An older man who's been down the block a bit is going to realize that he doesn't want that in a woman. He isn't looking for a saint, or a mother... he wants a woman who puts some effort into making sure he's happy, just as he will put effort into fulfilling her desires.. whether that's attending family events, cuddling on the couch, or watching a chick flick on tv.

 

So for a man who has had a few relationships, knows that life is going to kick you more often then not, he isn't looking for a woman who is off doing her own thing. He's looking for a woman who recognizes the things that are important to him, and puts forth effort to meet them.

 

In the case of some men its sexually related. If variety in sex is important, then a woman who's only comfortable with missionary style probably isn't going to motivate him to chain himeself to you for life. If it's time with the guys, and the woman is clingy, same deal. You have to tailor your actions to fit the desires of your partner.

 

This is all said with the understanding that you want to secure that marriage certificate. If that is your main goal, then find the things he Can't live without, and do them. Otherwise, you're replaceable. Unless you think you are so special that no one else will ever be as great as you... in that case, there are about a million people out there that feel exactly the same way. I love my guy, but there are things he does for me that I find irreplaceable. He has made himself special to me because of my desires and dreams in life. Not just for who he is. I've met many special people over the course of the years, and I'm not with them any more. He however, has made himself special by finding those things I desired most, and attempting to fill them.

 

Also, having sex with someone you love prior to marriage is not "giving up the milk". Some of these posters make it sound is as if you've desecrated your body by wanting to share it with the person you love. A good man will still want to marry you even if you are having sex with him. But if you dictate only certain ways, only certain times, and deny him frequently, then he's going to realize it will get worse after marriage. So why would he rush to marry you. But if you realized it was important to him (after discussing it with him, sharing your views, his views, and coming to a comprimise) then as the person who supposedly loves him, shouldn't you want to meet his desires? Want to make him happy in the areas that are important to him? And if you aren't happy with the outcome of sex, then bust your ass to make it more enjoyable for the both of you. Either tell him what will make it great for you, or discuss ways to enhance it, read books, research it... Women look at a man paying for dinner as if it's a two second affair. He pays, you say thanks.. all's fair. He busted his butt at work for 4-5 hours to pay for a dinner with you. To show you he cares for you and wants to spend time with you. So, why can't you put forth an hour of your time to fulfill one of his desires?

 

So that is what I think this all comes down to... men look at marriage as a life long sentence to a lackluster sexlife, or worse yet, no sex life. If it's mediocre now, why get married? What's he get for it? The next 30 years of hearing your wife tell you she has a headache, that anything he suggests she flat out tells him no. Because, after all, it's our body, and god forbid if we desecrate it for the sake of some guy who just wants to put something in it, right? We have to tolerate men's sexual desires to get what we really want, isn't that it? And what so many of us really want is that ring, but screw his desires. Because we've been taught to think of sex as dirty, or bad, so if he wants it, then it isn't right....? But we are holier than thou because all we want is the ring and a marriage certificate. So we're the better gender since we don't focuse on sex, but a diamond?

[sassybragg]

I applaud you on wanting to be married rather than having a boyfriend forever,however why would you buy a cow(no pun intended) if the milk is free? I personally would not do his chores at his home if I wasn't being appreciated and wasn't his wife. Spending time with his buddies is a good thing and it would be good for you as well. You were individuals prior to becoming involved so why stop having bonds with friends just because youre dating. Don't make him your everything. I personally need girlfriends but thats just me. I agree with an earlier statement, stop doing chores and other stereotypical "wifely duties", afterall youre not his wife, so it shouldnt be expected. Since he is content with dating you, be his girlfriend only;dont spend the night,dont do his chores or daily cooking and make plans for your dates instead of taking for granted that you both are available. This is not a means to make him marry you, its clarifying what you mean to each other and allowing you time for your daughter and other activities and if you wont have any other activities then you need to get some! As for your daughter,have you considered how she will be affected if you never marry? You have exposed her to your fantasy and may both be in for a let down. You may want more but if youre going to continue to wait there is no sense in you being used like a wife or offering these gifts of love to someone who isn't ready to make your relationship more permanent since that is what you want and youve made that clear to him. You love him so the things you do come natural but once you limit your acts of love to the minimum you both might see what you have and decide if either of you is spouse worthy. If not him, there is someone out there who would have made you their wife by now. (think about it) It's a risk but you might actually get rid of some tension and open his eyes at the same time without playing games. You don't miss your water until your well runs dry!

Good luck!

 

Basically - i really want us to be a family. In my mind , a marriage , would make it more real.

We dont live together - its me who wont - we see each other alone every weekend and once or twice during the week with my daughter.

Like for instance , last night he went home after work and goes to this resteraunt/bar after work with his divorced buddies. They are all in their 40's.

I just want us to be a real family. Why does he always go to this place with his friends? for goodness sakes they all act like they are 20 years old...

Can you teach an old dog new tricks???

I wish he thought more positive about a family unit. When he does come over here when i have my daughter - i always have a meal ready for him. and when i stay with him at his house on the weekends , i always clean his place and do all his laundry.

I do this so he can see the difference between a bacholar lifestyle and a family one. I dont know -

what else can i do ? its been two years and i am tellin you he is scared.

But when we were broken up for a couple of weeks - he cried and kept saying No other woman will love me as much as you - and i miss (insert daughter name) sooo much ....

So we got back together and now he keeps saying this "day by day" lecture.

[Walk]

Ou8

 

Why did you break up? And who initiated the break up?

 

I'm wondering, because this may have some bearing on why he isn't marriage minded at this time. Or if there is some underlying problem that is causing him to doubt a "til death" contract with you.

[ou812]

Well its been awhile since i have posted.

BTW- Walk you also make great sense.

Things are exactly the SAME. The relationship lately has even been REALLY great. No fighting , lots of love , and I havent brought marriage up in over a month.

Half of me feels stuck , other half feels good. I am still concentrating on my own life.But i feel like all he does is just respect me for it. LOL!!! I am kidding here friends.

I love all the advice. Thank you - more is appreciated!!!

OU812

[Sinead1981]

I have to say that I've really enjoyed reading the posts in this thread. People seem to have some very insightful and differing views on the subject.

 

As for me, I've been with my boyfriend for 18 months and we've been really happy. We're best friends and we are always making each other laugh. I have never got on with someone so well before and it's the same for him with me. Our problem, though, is that I'm American and he's Irish. We met over in Ireland when I was completing my Master's degree there. Unfortunately, I had to come home in March because I'd finished my degree and as an American it's virtually impossible to find a job there because I'd have to get a work permit.

 

Anyway, I've known for months now that I want to marry him, but I didn't bring it up for fear of freaking him out. After I found out I'd have to leave in March I finally brought it up, which I'll admit wasn't the best time to do that, but anyway...he was completely blindsided and said he wasn't ready yet, but I felt like it was more the shock of the suggestion that caused him to say that than anything else because when I told him about how I saw us married with an apartment together and maybe getting a dog he said "That sounds very inviting actually!" I haven't gotten any negative marriage vibes from him at all.

 

So in the meantime we're doing the long distance thing and we've been talking on the phone every day, which is nice. I'm planning on going back to Ireland for a "visit" in June and I'd be able to stay for up to 90 days. I told him I wanted him to think more about marriage and where he wants this relationship to go.

 

People have asked about why marriage is so important. Well, for me, I've always known I wanted to get married and have a family. It's about security (more emotional than financial, but financial too!) and a sense of belonging. The fact that we're from different countries complicates things a bit. I know I want to spend the rest of my life with him, and if we were to get married we could legally do that! We have never lived together or anything like that and we won't until we are married.

[brittbritt]

Well from a younger point of view. I am 20 and engaged. I don't believe in divorce. Maybee that is why he does not want to do it(fear of it not working) but you are right in wanting to get married. Give him alittle more time. My personal limit is 5 years, if we are together that long then we practically married im not going to waste that much time of my life waiting you to make up your mind. What if he doesn't ever choose to get married then what? Just weigh your options. But most importantly give him more time. Good things come to those who wait.

[starlight2025]

My advice on getting him to propose is that you can do nothing. The fact that you are even here asking for advice on how to get him to propose tells me that he really does not want to get married. I am a male and I speak from my own experience. He has to be willing to marry you. If he's willing then you would not have to think of tactics to get him to do what you want him to do.

 

If he really wants to marry you then he will do it on his own and not because you badger him or bug him about it every few months or so. If you put pressure on him then I can almost guarantee you that it will chase him away. How much pressure can a man take? We all have a threshold.

 

I'm facing pressure from my girlfriend's family-mostly on her dad's side for us to get married. Even bringing up the subject of marriage is pressure. I'm almost about ready to run and never look back if her family continues putting pressure. But hey why should she want to marry me anyway? She's already said hurtful things to me in the last week and she wonders why I don't like it when she calls me her fiancee. Because if she's going to criticize me and complain that I don't make a bed right then she shouldn't see any reason to marry me in the 1st place. I'll probably be the one to call it off.

 

I haven't had time to read the other posts but I would just play the waiting game for awhile. Decide how long you are willing to wait & then as hard as it is move on if you don't think he will ever propose. I don't think an ultimatium is the answer. There's no point in giving an ultimatium to him since through his silence he has already told you that he does not want to get married. If he wants to get married he will propose of his own free will and not because you gave him an ultimatium. Women do not have to give ultimatiums to men who want to marry them.