What would you think?

[Fair]

Hi everyone.

As I've stated before on these forums I'm the scapegoat in a family of narcissists who has been suffering from severe panic and anxiety and general P TSD related difficulties. I've been subjected to so much abuse at the hands of my siblings that I've been trying to go low to no contact with them for awhile now, but i check in on my brother often as he has diabetes and is in very poor health, lives alone, and our sisters who are narcissistic sociopaths don't care if he lives or dies. I try to keep my telephone conversations with my brother brief, because though at times he can be alright to talk to if it suits him, he IS a narcissist and still has that unreasoning hatred toward me as the family scapegoat, just like everyone else does. 

He lives two hours away, so I make long distance phone calls to him. But for quite awhile something strange has been happening. He goes through these spates of saying things to me that he shouldn't have any way of knowing. I live alone and have basically been in self isolation for a long time now due to my C ptsd. I rarely leave the house and don't associate with anyone. Sometimes I'll say things aloud to myself when I'm working around the house only to find when I phone my brother, he repeats the exact same words I spoke or he'll allude to something that I've been doing that I never told anyone I was doing, putting it into the middle of a conversation where something like that wouldn't normally come up. Then he starts smirking audibly. It's been happening so often I'm seriously beginning to wonder if my house has spyware in it, and I"ll tell you now it' wouldn't be inconceivable for my siblings to do something like that. But then I tell myself it was just my imagination only to find him saying something else that's oddly specific about something I was doing or saying that no one should know. If I stop and question it he just tells me I"m crazy. " I don't know where that came from I just said it." But I can always hear him smirking like he's getting a lot of enjoyment out of just sort of casually throwing things into the conversation that pertain to something I was doing or saying in the privacy of my own house. 

Yesterday was the worst. I had been laying around with the flu for three days doing nothing but listening to audiobooks. At one point I got up and my big toe was hurting so I sat down to examine it and was sort of babying it because there was pain under my toenail.  And this is really how dull my life has become, with nothing noteworthy to say about an entire three days except for my toenail pain and my audiobooks. I phoned my brother to check on him. 

I didn't tell him I"d been listening to audiobooks or that my toe was sore. I really try never to tell him anything as a way of grey rocking him while phoning to make sure he isn't passed out somewhere from another sugar low. But guess what? He started laughing when he asked what I'd been doing and I just said 'nothing.' He ended up joking that maybe I should just pull out my hair and count the strands and  put them somewhere. I froze. The day prior I had been listening to a thriller audiobook where a woman was pulling her hair out and counting the strands, and it was probably the most stand out scene of the whole book.  When he finished saying that he followed it right up by saying casually, 'By the way, how's your toe?"

I got upset as you can imagine. I told him about the audiobook and about my toe and accused him of spying on me somehow, but he tried to convince me I'm just crazy and just making associations over things because I"m paranoid. But this CAN"T be a coincidence, can it??? It's too specific. I've just been listening to an audiobook about a woman pulling out her hair and counting the strands, and during the very next phone call he's telling me I should pull my hair out and count the strands, following up with asking about my toe which he shouldn't have known was SORE.

I'm  so anxious to hear what the rest of you think of this. Do you think my house is bugged. Now I"m walking around feeling like I"m being watched all the time. And Like I said, my siblings are all narcissists in the truest sense of the word!!! They're capable of anything. Or so you think there's even a slightest chance any of this could be coincidental??  I just feel sick.

[ExpatInItaly]

When was the last time any of your siblings were at your house? 

[Fair]

It's been awhile but I bought this house from my sister, who still lives close by on a farm, and I wasn't given all the keys to the front door. Her adult kids had copies of the house keys and who knows who else. I changed the doorknob when I couldn't get any of them back but not for a few months after I moved in. I've lived here for seven years but my brother has been saying these suspicious things for a long, long time now. I'd say years. only lately it's been getting increasingly suspicious. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Fair

[Alpacalia]

If your siblings have certain diagnosis, well, I know they won't go get help or even recognize the diagnosis, but allowing them to directly or indirectly control your life is not necessary. 

Making comments about your hair strands is seemingly a strange thing to say to someone. I don’t believe you're going insane. 

Perhaps hire someone to check the house for hidden cameras might be worth looking into for yourself? 

Having the flu (I'm so sorry) is not fun and can reveal non-verbal signs, especially with boredom. People often project unintentionally, and perhaps he intuitively picked up on your expressions or something that you mentioned in passing.

I do know a bit about PTSD...and it is not uncommon to isolate and become so imaginative in a kind of spiral situation. 

Perhaps you just like your books, but, there are still things to look forward to. Things like a good zip travelling across town, sometimes music, sometimes getting out in the garden sometimes just watering plants, could be your cup of tea, but please, don't forget recreational if you are able to.

I hope your no-contact or low-contact helps, if only by you having a chance to heal the rest of the way.

[Wiseman2]

5 hours ago, Fair said:

It's been awhile but I bought this house from my sister, who still lives close by on a farm, 

Is it possible your siblings talk to each other about you and whatever you share with any of them? For example perhaps your brothers remarks are from things you've mentioned to others. 

[glows]

Even if your house is bugged how would they know what exact audio book you’ve been listening to and why would any of them listen to the same one to know that there was a woman pulling hair and counting strands? They’re narcs. Interested in their own self inflated bombastic egos and living in their airs of superiority. The likelihood of these details combined is low to zero because it would mean one of these supposed narcs takes a deep interest in your life. That’s not what narcs do.

I think they treat you poorly and have a long history of making you feel small especially if you already have low confidence issues. This triggers your ptsd with them. You think you’re being kind but you’re just sabotaging yourself each time you call the diabetes brother. 

Next time don’t draw attention to anything and blow your grey rocking technique. Just make a joke out of it and move on with the conversation. Exposing a narcissist will just inflict more pain. They don’t like the answer No but a better method is to simply grey rock completely. Search your house if your suspicions are very deep but realize also that you do have ptsd and these people trigger you. Don’t give into paranoia or start believing something is there when there isn’t a likelihood. 

 

[d0nnivain]

I suggest you have your house checked for bugs & maybe try texting your brother instead of calling him.  

Do you leave your computer with a webcam open / on when you are home?  If so, stop.  Turn it off & cover the camera when not in use.  

[Fair]

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Is it possible your siblings talk to each other about you and whatever you share with any of them? For example perhaps your brothers remarks are from things you've mentioned to others. 

No I don't talk to my sisters. They're narcissists. I only talk to my brother to check up on him because of his blood sugar. And when he said what he did on the phone I hadn't spoken to anyone at all for three days.

[Fair]

2 hours ago, glows said:

Even if your house is bugged how would they know what exact audio book you’ve been listening to and why would any of them listen to the same one to know that there was a woman pulling hair and counting strands? They’re narcs. Interested in their own self inflated bombastic egos and living in their airs of superiority. The likelihood of these details combined is low to zero because it would mean one of these supposed narcs takes a deep interest in your life. That’s not what narcs do.

 

 

Narcissists are stalkers. They have been known to install hidden cameras or spy devices inside people's homes. If there's a listening device in the house he'd have heard the part of the audiobook that mentioned the hair and decided to drop it into the conversation to let me know indirectly I'm being spied on.

[Alpacalia]

If you're feeling that you're being monitored then it would be prudent to hire someone to sweep your home for bugs and hidden cameras. Then you'll know for sure. When he continues to make you feel paranoid and watched, cut off contact with him altogether. He doesn't live with you so you have no reason to speak to him if you don't want to. It's always better to err on the side of caution when it comes to your safety and privacy.

If your gut is telling you that something is not right, take action to protect yourself. As for your brother's behavior, it is possible that he is intentionally trying to make you feel paranoid and watched. They love to draw attention to themselves, even if it means causing harm or discomfort to others. So try to resist the urge to give in to it.

He might be purposely mentioning things that you have said or done in private to get a reaction out of you.

However, it's also possible that these incidents are simply coincidences.

Without concrete evidence, it's difficult to say for sure.

Getting your home swept for bugs and hidden cameras is a good step to take to ease your mind and possibly uncover any potential monitoring devices. In the meantime, it might be a good idea to limit or cut off contact with your brother if he continues to make you feel uneasy. 

[mark clemson]

11 hours ago, Fair said:

this CAN"T be a coincidence, can it??? It's too specific. I've just been listening to an audiobook about a woman pulling out her hair and counting the strands, and during the very next phone call he's telling me I should pull my hair out and count the strands, following up with asking about my toe which he shouldn't have known was SORE. ... Or so you think there's even a slightest chance any of this could be coincidental??

Do you think my house is bugged. Now I"m walking around feeling like I"m being watched all the time. And Like I said, my siblings are all narcissists in the truest sense of the word!!! They're capable of anything.

Assuming what you say is in fact accurate, no it doesn't sound possible that this level of detail happened by coincidence. Eliminating that leaves you with the possibility you mentioned of your house being bugged unfortunately.

Agree with some above that hiring a person to do a security scan would be a logical step. Contact them in a way that reduces the chance of your actions being discovered.

IF NO spying equipment is found, you could consider the possibility that you MAY be delusional. Delusional people can invent all sorts of experiences and possibly your brother is not actually even saying these things in the first place. However you would want to eliminate the spyware possibility first before considering this possibility.

If you have a cellphone it's possible spyware is set up on your phone and, e.g. the microphone is being used to listen. So that would be one place to have checked.This is not unheard of.

Certainly people gaslighting others is not completely unheard of either. So the possibility of this spyware set up being done to you and your brother gaslighting you, while rare, does exist.

Edited October 23, 2023 by mark clemson

[Fair]

Well, Mark Clemson, I'm definitely  not delusional. My brother said what he did.

Yes, I agree the level of detail indicates it couldn't have happened by coincidence. However, I honestly don't know who to contact about sweeping my house for spyware. I don't own a cell, just a laptop. But I know spyware can be hidden easily and almost anywhere without being detected.

We don't have a lot of resources where I live. It's a village in the middle of nowhere. So the question remains who I could contact to help me. Should I call the police and ask them to make a sweep of my home? 

[basil67]

Fair, I just had a look online.  If you Google "check for spy devices in my home" you'll get a lot of hits and advice.  And there are companies which specialise in this

You may also find stuff on youtube showing you what to look for

Edited October 23, 2023 by basil67

[Alpacalia]

49 minutes ago, Fair said:

Well, Mark Clemson, I'm definitely  not delusional. My brother said what he did.

That's not what was said:

Quote

IF NO spying equipment is found, you could consider the possibility that you MAY be delusional.

You can try to reach out to your local law enforcement for advice on how to protect yourself and your home from potential surveillance. I would call their non-emergency number and explain the situation to see if they can offer any assistance or refer you to someone who can help.

[Fair]

22 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

That's not what was said:

6 hours ago, mark clemson said:

 

IF NO spying equipment is found, you could consider the possibility that you MAY be delusional. Delusional people can invent all sorts of experiences and possibly your brother is not actually even saying these things in the first place. However you would want to eliminate the spyware possibility first before considering this possibility.

 

Alcapella - here's mark clemson's quote.  

My mind is make up then, I definitely will do what I can to make sure my home is void of spy devices. I've been feeling ill over this since I spoke to my brother and like I said, he's said other suspicious things, before. And I also know him. He's never respected my privacy, always reading my diaries and snooping through my room when I was a kid. Taking things and denying it. One time years ago when he was living with our mom I went over to her house to visit. I noticed something suspicious sitting behind a plant on a corner shelf that was attached to the wall and when I went over to check it out found he actually set up his video recorder behind it that was recording everybody in the house without anyone knowing about it. So there are plenty of legitimate reasons why I don't trust my brother or any of my siblings, and why I ended up with C ptsd as a result of them.

In this case being that he lives so far away from me now he couldn't have bugged my house himself, but someone did and he's getting information about it from someplace which would mean there's more than just him who is involved. In any case, I have to ease my mind about it or I'll never be able to shake this creepy feeling..

Edited October 23, 2023 by Fair
not finished writing

[Alpacalia]

1 hour ago, Fair said:

My mind is make up then, I definitely will do what I can to make sure my home is void of spy devices. I've been feeling ill over this since I spoke to my brother and like I said, he's said other suspicious things, before. And I also know him. He's never respected my privacy, always reading my diaries and snooping through my room when I was a kid. Taking things and denying it. One time years ago when he was living with our mom I went over to her house to visit. I noticed something suspicious sitting behind a plant on a corner shelf that was attached to the wall and when I went over to check it out found he actually set up his video recorder behind it that was recording everybody in the house without anyone knowing about it. So there are plenty of legitimate reasons why I don't trust my brother or any of my siblings, and why I ended up with C ptsd as a result of them.

In this case being that he lives so far away from me now he couldn't have bugged my house himself, but someone did and he's getting information about it from someplace which would mean there's more than just him who is involved. In any case, I have to ease my mind about it or I'll never be able to shake this creepy feeling..

Again, if NO spying equipment is found then you can be at least open to the possibility that what you heard from your brother indeed is just all coincidence, and have earplugs ready for next time in case he calls or Skypes during the middle of the night.

Yes, I understand your concerns and it is always better to err on the side of caution. I think contacting the police to sweep your house for spyware would be a wise decision. They have the resources and expertise to detect any hidden devices. In the meantime, I would also recommend changing all your passwords and securing your laptop with a strong anti-virus software. Make sure to also check your privacy settings on all your social media accounts and limit who can see your personal information. It's always better to take preventive measures to protect yourself. I understand how difficult it must be for you to trust your brother and your siblings given your past experiences.

If there is evidence of spying equipment, it's important to take appropriate action. If it turns out that your brother is not involved, then it may be someone else who is getting information from your household. In either case, address this situation for your own safety and peace of mind. I hope everything turns out okay and that you can find some resolution to this situation.

Please don't hesitate to reach out for help and support from trusted friends and family. Take care of yourself and stay safe.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Alpacalia

[d0nnivain]

Do not call the police & ask them for help.  They will think you are daft. 

If your only device is a laptop do install great anti-spywear.  Check for key loggers.  You can get instructions by searching the internet; basically it involving looking at what programs are running on your computer.    Always keep the laptop powered off and closed when not in use.  There are bug detectors you can buy over the internet for less than $50 us.  Buy one & use it.  

[mark clemson]

18 hours ago, Fair said:

Should I call the police and ask them to make a sweep of my home? 

Normally one would hire a security consultant for this sort of thing. If none are available in your area you could consider researching one (under the circumstances consider doing so not on your laptop, find another computer to use). You might need to have them make a special trip out to you.

There are companies that install security cameras (smaller companies ones, not e.g. Ring). If it was me, I'd look for one of these and ask them about a security sweep. If they don't do it themselves there's a good chance they know of someone who does. A private investigator (if there are any in your area) might also be able to do such a security sweep or put you in touch with someone who does.

If you are far away from major population centers, you could consider making a special trip to accomplish this if you choose to move forward with this idea.

[ShyViolet]

I'm sorry but these sound like delusional paranoid thoughts.

[NuevoYorko]

The police are not going to come to your house to look for bugs because you are suspicious about your family.   It does not seem that any crimes have been committed against you.   Police need evidence and it would have to be pretty compelling, under these circumstances.

I'm curious about how you have come to be familiar with your family members' diagnoses of narcissism, since you are estranged from all of them.   

[Fair]

11 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

 

I'm curious about how you have come to be familiar with your family members' diagnoses of narcissism, since you are estranged from all of them.   

This is an odd question. They're family. I've had a lifetime of knowing them. They're pure evil and can't be trusted.  Plus, I've been researching narcissism for years because I was scapegoated as a child and googling the topic of scapegoating led me straight to articles on narcissism and narcissistic families. My mom and sibling check all the boxes on how narcissists behave, think, and operate. And I ended up with c ptsd and severe anxiety because of abuse. 

Anyway, I'm not here to defend why I think they're narcissists. I know what I know.  

However, I'm not convinced the police would necessarily come here to sweep my house for bugs. Someone mentioned bug detectors you can buy online. I think that's the better option for right now. 

[Fair]

19 hours ago, ShyViolet said:

I'm sorry but these sound like delusional paranoid thoughts.

I hope they are. But I've had a hard life and been subjected to too much evil to just dismiss my own suspicions outright. People questioning my sanity are just being nasty though that's nothing i wasn't expecting, and some people have been so sheltered it's the only conclusion they're ever going to accept.  

For my part I'm going to try the online bug detectors. I hope they really work. 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Fair

[basil67]

I think the bug detectors will be a good start, but what if they find nothing?  Would you accept that or still that something is wrong? My fear is that you'd still be concerned that something was missed.  

With this in mind, I'd strongly suggest you contact a security company so that you know you're working with someone who has the right tools and experience to find even the most obscure devices.

[d0nnivain]

Get the bug detectors but also check your computer for spyware.  If you have a habit of leaving your laptop open (screen up) and in sleep mode I suspect that the culprit is spyware & if anything that is how your family knows what you are up to.  That is more plausible than electronic listen devices.  

[NuevoYorko]

2 hours ago, Fair said:

 

Anyway, I'm not here to defend why I think they're narcissists. I know what I know.  

You're certainly entitled to your personal opinions.  These boards are absolutely swarming with posts from people who are positive that their relatives, ex or current dates, neighbors, people they've been in contact with on OLD, anybody they don't like,  on and on, are narcissists.  So I tend to take it all with grains of salt anymore.  In any case, it doesn't matter whether your relatives are narcissists or not, you think they are spies.

2 hours ago, Fair said:

However, I'm not convinced the police would necessarily come here to sweep my house for bugs. Someone mentioned bug detectors you can buy online. I think that's the better option for right now. 

Yes, you are correct.  The police don't go looking for bugs unless that is part of an ongoing investigation where there have been reported criminal acts.  At least in the USA.