Was I being snarky?

[Pwebster]

Good morning everyone.  I have a little bit of a quandary I'd like to ask you guys.  Now to some this may seem like a little petty thing to make a fuss over whereas others may tend to side with me.  I posted this on another forum site, again, just to get some feedback, and I've taken a beating on it.  Tell me what you think.  Here's my dilemma.

 

I am a 54 year old male and I work for a major medical company as a patient services rep.  We are all permanent work from home due to covid so I haven't seen any of my co-workers in several years.  I take calls all day long from patients and doctor's offices and when I answer the phone I politely give my name.  Let's say for the purpose of this forum my name is John.  This is how I answer any and every call.  "Hello, thank you for calling ABC company.  My name is John.  How may I help you?"  The typical spiel.  I also ask for the caller's name so I can address them correctly.  "And before we began may I have your name please?"    I'm big on calling someone by their name as I expect to be called by mine, especially when I've given it to you.  Ok, our job uses Microsoft Teams so we can communicate with each other.  And if any of you are familiar with that you are in a group chat and your name is clearly visible to everyone in the chat.  You can send individual messages to anyone in the chat by clicking on their "name".  Here's the interaction I had with a co-worker yesterday.  

 

Her:  Morning dear, your missing information came in for case #. . . .

 

Me:  John, not dear.  And thanks.

 

Her:  Oh, sorry, I am an older woman and I use this term.  Sorry will not with you anymore. . no problem

 

Me:  No problem, I'm not too offended but some things are not workplace appropriate

 

Her:  Let it go . . I'm good and you are too . . .I got it

 

This co-worker, who I haven't exchanged any messages with since March, I guess took offense that either I corrected her on my name or the fact that I said using terms like dear are really not workplace appropriate.  Again, she had to click on my name but instead of typing "Morning John . . . " she chose to type "Morning dear . . . "  When I posed this question on another message / forum board 99% of the people said I was the one being snarky with my reply,  "Me:  No problem, I'm not too offended but some things are not workplace appropriate."   In your honest opinion, was I being snarky?  Some said I made it sound like I was scolding or reprimanding her.  I guess when I look at the back and forth interaction when I said "John, not dear.  And thanks" maybe, MAYBE her reply should have simply could have been, "sorry, no problem" and that would have been the end of that.  At least in my mind.  However, she had to come back with "I am an older woman and I use this term.  Sorry will not with you anymore. . no problem".  Does someone's age give them the right to call someone a cutesy name or a name they prefer not to be called?  And I looked up this woman's Facebook account and she appears to be no older than me.  Saying I'm an older woman implies that you're in your 60s or 70s and you should just be allowed a pass.  Again, I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, but you clicked on my name to send me a message but still chose to type "morning dear."  We don't know each other on that or any level other than we are co-workers with the same company.  And even when we were in the office some 3 years or so ago I don't remember ever meeting you or having any type of face to face conversation with you.  

 

How many of us would ever send a co-worker, someone you don't know, a message and start out with a cutesy name?  "Sweetie, honey, dear, luvbug, kitten" etc.  Would you send the CEO a message addressing them as dear?  Would you even hit up your HR rep and say "good morning sweetie. . . "   Granted, you may not be trying to make anything sexual out of it but you can't determine what the other person may think or how they would take it.  That's why you gotta be safer these days.  

 

How many of us have ever called our bank, auto loan company, insurance company, power company, or even our cell phone carrier and kept referring to the person on the other end of the phone as sweetie or dear?  "Good morning sweetie, I need to make a payment on my account please."  

 

Was I being snarky?

 

 

[FMW]

I don't see any problem with your response to her.  I probably would not have mentioned how she addressed me in this situation, but then again my nature is to let things slide (sometimes when I shouldn't).  But I agree, it's not work appropriate and there is no reason you should not have brought it to her attention.  

[Pwebster]

34 minutes ago, FMW said:

I don't see any problem with your response to her.  I probably would not have mentioned how she addressed me in this situation, but then again my nature is to let things slide (sometimes when I shouldn't).  But I agree, it's not work appropriate and there is no reason you should not have brought it to her attention.  

And that's the thing.  It didn't really offend me as I even said "no problem".  I was just trying to let her know it's better to use someone's name instead of dear.  If anything I could have taken offense to her saying "I will not with your anymore."  

[mark clemson]

I don't think "snarky" would be the right word, but you do seem to be dictating "workplace norms" to her that she was (it very much sounds like) genuinely unaware of and that may actually be ambiguous. Is it actually spelled out anywhere that you can't call a co-worker dear in a context/way that doesn't constitute "a hostile environment" and/or sexual harrassment?

You have a right to ask not to call you that if it makes you uncomfortable, but I suspect she felt like you were "reprimanding" her, and to a certain extent unnecessarily.

It certainly doesn't hurt anything for her to stop calling you dear, and she has no business reason to do so. However, coming across as assuming a place of authority wrt workplace norms (which you probably don't have if you're not at least a manager) and/or enforcing those norms IF they actually even exist isn't going to win you any popularity contests.

It's clear she intended no offense and fully expected you to let this slide, even if it actually is considered inappropriate in your particular office.

Edited September 28, 2023 by mark clemson

[Pwebster]

14 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I don't think "snarky" would be the right word, but you do seem to be dictating "workplace norms" to her that she was (it very much sounds like) genuinely unaware of and that may actually be ambiguous. Is it actually spelled out anywhere that you can't call a co-worker dear in a context/way that doesn't constitute "a hostile environment" and/or sexual harrassment?

You have a right to ask not to call you that if it makes you uncomfortable, but I suspect she felt like you were "reprimanding" her, and to a certain extent unnecessarily.

It certainly doesn't hurt anything for her to stop calling you dear, and she has no business reason to do so. However, coming across as assuming a place of authority wrt workplace norms (which you probably don't have if you're not at least a manager) and/or enforcing those norms IF they actually even exist isn't going to win you any popularity contests.

It's clear she intended no offense and fully expected you to let this slide, even if it actually is considered inappropriate in your particular office.

Does it really need to be spelled out in the HR policies or company handbook not to call anyone a term of endearment or some cutesy name simply because that's how you speak?  My brother-in-law is a big curser and we just accept that.  How far do you think he'll get on his job if he talked to those people like he does when it's just family?  We all need a work persona we utilize everyday between working hours.  If I walk up to a female co-worker and place my hand on her shoulder while looking at her computer screen that is "technically" unwanted touching.  I didn't get permission to put my hands on her.  Albeit totally innocent and non-sexual she could take it in an entirely different way.  I could just be trying to get a better look at her screen but she could take it I was making a pass at her or trying to grab her breasts or look down her shirt.  You feel me?  It's how they take it now necessarily how it was meant.  Neither did I give anyone the permission to call me dear, sweetie, honey, or hun.  I think that in 2023 we all should know what's right or wrong and what's expected of us in a workplace environment.  Now if we're out at a bar having a few drinks after work "dear" may not have bothered me.  But this was on the company team chat.  We need to be a little more mindful of what we type and say.  

[mark clemson]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion - but it's just that - an opinion. Others might (and do) feel differently. That's the reason laws and policies exist - in an attempt to disambiguate some of these complex realities.

I think you probably realize her calling you "dear" is not potentially threatening to you the way the "unwanted touching" you describe might be to a female co-worker. Or maybe it is. Or perhaps the perceived "unfairness" of you (typically) needing to not say dear but she (typically) can is what bothers you? An equity issue?

At any rate, IMO you DO have a "right" to ask her to stop using the word dear per most workplace's norms. However I think the insistence on it is really YOUR issue, not hers. Some people do use terms like "dear" in conversation all the time e..g phone service personnel I've spoken with. It's not wrong, just different. She wouldn't use it with the CEO, but since you're not the CEO the social norms for a person in a high level of authority are not in play.

Overall, I think that people DO use these terms in less formal business contexts. At the surface and cursory level you describe, whether it is "threatening" and/or "inappropriate" is very much a matter of opinion. Things like frequency of use, intonation, and other behaviors that go along with it will typically come into play to make a person form that opinion.

The nice thing (for you) is that "you can do you" and if you really don't want to be called dear you can ask for that. However, it's not realistic or IMO particularly reasonable to try to insist that everyone else follow "your rules" for social norms.

[Pwebster]

32 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Well, you're entitled to your opinion - but it's just that - an opinion. Others might (and do) feel differently. That's the reason laws and policies exist - in an attempt to disambiguate some of these complex realities.

I think you probably realize her calling you "dear" is not potentially threatening to you the way the "unwanted touching" you describe might be to a female co-worker. Or maybe it is. Or perhaps the perceived "unfairness" of you (typically) needing to not say dear but she (typically) can is what bothers you? An equity issue?

At any rate, IMO you DO have a "right" to ask her to stop using the word dear per most workplace's norms. However I think the insistence on it is really YOUR issue, not hers. Some people do use terms like "dear" in conversation all the time e..g phone service personnel I've spoken with. It's not wrong, just different. She wouldn't use it with the CEO, but since you're not the CEO the social norms for a person in a high level of authority are not in play.

Overall, I think that people DO use these terms in less formal business contexts. At the surface and cursory level you describe, whether it is "threatening" and/or "inappropriate" is very much a matter of opinion. Things like frequency of use, intonation, and other behaviors that go along with it will typically come into play to make a person form that opinion.

The nice thing (for you) is that "you can do you" and if you really don't want to be called dear you can ask for that. However, it's not realistic or IMO particularly reasonable to try to insist that everyone else follow "your rules" for social norms.

Please let me start off by saying this.  I am in now way arguing with you.  This is just a conversation.  Now with that out of the way.  No, what she said was not offensive in anyway shape or form.  And I expressed that to her when I said, "no problem."  But some people have a problem with my second part of that statement as it being snarky?  Do you think I was being snarky with her by saying it's not workplace appropriate?  Some suggested that I use a bunch of flowery statements to convey my message as to not come across as condescending.  He's one reply that I was told I should use.

 

"Lol thanks for the instructions.  make a joke of it. Lighthearted with a sandwich approach. Outer bread “thanks again for the information - it’s really helpful.  Sandwich filling:  You know when you call me “angel pie” it reminds me of when my mom used to call me that - right before she told me to do another chore!- so I’m happy to be called “Superstar Barbie” but (your name) works even better!”  Outer bread: thanks so much again -hope your day is going well!"

 

How does this solve anything?  This is pretty much telling her "call me anything as long as it's cute."  

 

 

[mark clemson]

Right - as I said above, in my own view not "snarky" but maybe coming across as making a big deal of what many others would consider a trivial issue, and perhaps also coming across as assuming an air of authority wrt to workplace norms to a certain extent.

The quoted idea for a response makes zero sense to me, so agree with you - wouldn't use it.

Maybe something like - "Respectfully, I don't like being called dear. Do you mind just sticking with my name." Dunno, I find it hard to think of a not-at-least-slightly-awkward way to request they not call you dear. But again, fully within your "rights" in terms of modern workplace norms to ask for this, awkward or not.

[Pwebster]

12 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Right - as I said above, in my own view not "snarky" but maybe coming across as making a big deal of what many others would consider a trivial issue, and perhaps also coming across as assuming an air of authority wrt to workplace norms to a certain extent.

The quoted idea for a response makes zero sense to me, so agree with you - wouldn't use it.

Maybe something like - "Respectfully, I don't like being called dear. Do you mind just sticking with my name." Dunno, I find it hard to think of a not-at-least-slightly-awkward way to request they not call you dear. But again, fully within your "rights" in terms of modern workplace norms to ask for this, awkward or not.

Yeah, the quoted statement made no sense to me either.  I took it to mean I don't know what to say so I'm just going to say this which has zero bearing on me asking you to call me by my name.  

[basil67]

6 hours ago, Pwebster said:

Me:  No problem, I'm not too offended but some things are not workplace appropriate

I got pulled up on using the word "dear" many years ago.  I apologised and stopped doing it.  Thankfully, the person I was speaking to had the graciousness to accept my apology and move on.   

6 hours ago, Pwebster said:

Her:  Let it go . . I'm good and you are too . . .I got it

This was an appropriate response from her.  She'd already apologised, explained herself and said that she wouldn't use that term with you anymore....but you went and put on the HR hat and continued to lecture her

Yeah, your comment was snarky and unnecessary

[basil67]

4 hours ago, Pwebster said:

We need to be a little more mindful of what we type and say.  

While it's fair that you ask someone to not speak to you in a certain way, you need to be more mindful of not telling them how to behave in general.   Please remember that it's HR's role to speak with someone about their behaviour.  It's not your role

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by basil67

[Wiseman2]

7 hours ago, Pwebster said:

 I take calls all day long from patients and doctor's offices  our bank, auto loan company, insurance company, power company.

It's always best to remain professional even if you feel a client is too casual. Keep in mind there are records of these interactions and clients can provide feedback. This client apologized and that as well as your reply afterward is all on record. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Wiseman2

[Pwebster]

13 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

It's always best to remain professional even if you feel a client is too casual. Keep in mind there are records of these interactions and clients can provide feedback. This client apologized and that as well as your reply afterward is all on record. 

This wasn't a client.  It was a co-worker I do not know nor have I ever met.

[Kassieee]

You going on after she apologized just seems like you looking for argument but she wasn't having it and shut it down quick.

 

You looking for her on social media after this is alarming.

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by SlimShadysWife

[Mrin]

2 hours ago, SlimShadysWife said:

You going on after she apologized just seems like you looking for argument but she wasn't having it and shut it down quick.

 

You looking for her on social media after this is alarming.

 

This. And super creepy/alarming!

[Acacia98]

On 9/28/2023 at 6:02 PM, Pwebster said:

Here's the interaction I had with a co-worker yesterday.  

 

Her:  Morning dear, your missing information came in for case #. . . .

 

Me:  John, not dear.  And thanks.

 

Her:  Oh, sorry, I am an older woman and I use this term.  Sorry will not with you anymore. . no problem

 

Me:  No problem, I'm not too offended but some things are not workplace appropriate

 

Her:  Let it go . . I'm good and you are too . . .I got it

 

This co-worker, who I haven't exchanged any messages with since March, I guess took offense that either I corrected her on my name or the fact that I said using terms like dear are really not workplace appropriate.  Again, she had to click on my name but instead of typing "Morning John . . . " she chose to type "Morning dear . . . "  When I posed this question on another message / forum board 99% of the people said I was the one being snarky with my reply,  "Me:  No problem, I'm not too offended but some things are not workplace appropriate."   In your honest opinion, was I being snarky?  Some said I made it sound like I was scolding or reprimanding her.  I guess when I look at the back and forth interaction when I said "John, not dear.  And thanks" maybe, MAYBE her reply should have simply could have been, "sorry, no problem" and that would have been the end of that.  At least in my mind.  However, she had to come back with "I am an older woman and I use this term.  Sorry will not with you anymore. . no problem".  Does someone's age give them the right to call someone a cutesy name or a name they prefer not to be called?  And I looked up this woman's Facebook account and she appears to be no older than me.  Saying I'm an older woman implies that you're in your 60s or 70s and you should just be allowed a pass.  Again, I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, but you clicked on my name to send me a message but still chose to type "morning dear."  We don't know each other on that or any level other than we are co-workers with the same company.  And even when we were in the office some 3 years or so ago I don't remember ever meeting you or having any type of face to face conversation with you.  

 

How many of us would ever send a co-worker, someone you don't know, a message and start out with a cutesy name?  "Sweetie, honey, dear, luvbug, kitten" etc.  Would you send the CEO a message addressing them as dear?  Would you even hit up your HR rep and say "good morning sweetie. . . "   Granted, you may not be trying to make anything sexual out of it but you can't determine what the other person may think or how they would take it.  That's why you gotta be safer these days.  

 

How many of us have ever called our bank, auto loan company, insurance company, power company, or even our cell phone carrier and kept referring to the person on the other end of the phone as sweetie or dear?  "Good morning sweetie, I need to make a payment on my account please."  

 

Was I being snarky?

 

 

It was perfectly okay for you to tell her not to call you "dear." She then apologized. When she told you she was an older woman, I think she was trying to explain that it wasn't intended to be romantic or anything like that. She was seeking to put you at ease. She wasn't making an excuse.

Now, if you had been wise, you would have let it go because she had apologized. But you persisted in showing her she was wrong. At that point, you came across as a condescending person who was more invested in being right than anything else. The fact that you then went online to look up her account and, perhaps, check what her age was suggests that you're one of those people who has to "win."

Look, I don't think it was wrong for you to raise the issue in the first place. And I don't think you were under any obligation to soften that original message with an emoji of a smile or flowers or whatever. But I do think that you don't have the greatest social skills in the world. When you call someone out on a mistake they made and they actually say sorry, you should let it go. Don't give them condescending mini-lectures or go to their social media to search for proof that their explanation is wrong, or draw other people into a completely unnecessary discussion of the issue in the hope that they will side with you. Just let it go.

[Els]

I think it was fine for you to tell her not to call you that, but with all due respect, it's a bit concerning that you are obsessing over it to this degree, to the extent of posting on multiple forums and asking multiple people and checking her social media...

And no, I don't generally call people other than my spouse "dear", and I certainly wouldn't call anyone at work that. But if an old lady at work calls me "dear" (and I know quite a few who do), I'd just let it go.

 

[Wiseman2]

21 hours ago, Pwebster said:

This wasn't a client.  It was a co-worker I do not know nor have I ever met.

Nonetheless, these interactions are recorded and your lecturing this person about "appropriateness" after she already apologized is quite unprofessional. Focus on remaining professional and polite at all times.

If it helps keep your indignation and lashing out about it under control, always keep in mind that everything is recorded and people can complain about their experiences with you.

[Wiseman2]

On 9/28/2023 at 11:02 AM, Pwebster said:

 This co-worker,  took offense that either I corrected her on my name or the fact that I said using terms like dear are really not workplace appropriate.  

Did this person report you? If so, it could serve as a teaching tool to remain professional and not overreact to a simple regional or generational  habit. Which this person apologized for.

Workplace bullying is never appropriate, even if you were having a bad day. If you need a break at work, take a few minutes and compose yourself to relax. 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Wiseman2

[MsJayne]

Addressing anyone you're not familiar with using pet names or diminutives is extremely rude and presumptuous unless you're talking to a child, so you were well within your right to draw her attention to her lack of manners. You're also correct that she's being unprofessional, but unless you're her superior in the workplace you should have stopped at telling her to use your name. I do sympathise, being addressed with names like 'dear' by someone my own age or younger really grinds my gears, and I've been known to peel the skin off a sales girl or a waitress when they've called me 'love' or 'darl'.  Your woman obviously resented being told she was inappropriate, you'd already questioned her professionalism by calling her out on the name issue, so continuing with berating her after she'd apologised wasn't necessary and that's why she gave you a bit more rudeness in response. Once someone's apologised for something there's no need to keep going on about it, especially over something relatively trivial. 

[glows]

I don’t think it’s a big deal now but certainly would have been upset when I was younger and yes, I do think you were slightly over the top sounding like a lecture in terms of appropriateness.

The reason I might have bristled in much younger years would probably be due to insecurity not having much experience or feeling very junior, underpaid or lacking in seniority relative to other colleagues or feeling disrespected on a daily basis. Or not feeling recognized for my hard work. 

Your colleague apologized but you’re still upset. Are you overworked or underpaid? Do you like your job? Are you recognized or do you feel respected at your job? You’re not wrong for not wanting to be addressed that way but the force of your reaction and the way you’re still upset makes it seem like it’s not just about the term used. Maybe it’s time to think of doing something else that interests you.