'Good' old 'I need some space'

[Legatus]

6 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Try not to over-think it so much. 

You can't just stop your brain from thinking If I had a penny for each time somebody told me not to think about something haha The good thing is that thinking doesn't equal anxiety anymore. I'm curious but the reason is so that I can better myself and understand people's behaviour better. 

3 hours ago, Sony12 said:

Also keep in mind it's highly likely she never intended for this thing to go anywhere. To her it may have just been 'hanging out'.

Yes, quite possibly, perhaps the thing ran its course in three dates : )

[Wiseman2]

As long as you can continue to enjoy the dance class, you're good. Just try to be neutral, dust yourself off and move forward.

[ExpatInItaly]

36 minutes ago, Legatus said:

You can't just stop your brain from thinking

You can actively try redirect your thoughts from something that is taking up too much space in your mind. 

Have you been trying to do that? 

39 minutes ago, Legatus said:

I'm curious but the reason is so that I can better myself and understand people's behaviour better. 

Why do you feel you would need to better yourself just because one woman wasn't interested after 3 dates? 

[Legatus]

7 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

As long as you can continue to enjoy the dance class, you're good.

I went to the same place for social dancing on Saturday and I already feel like I got my safe place back

 

7 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Have you been trying to do that? 

I do that by journalling or some internal conversations. In this case I decided to write here to go through my brainstorm phase. I don't mind the thinking to be honest. It's almost like a path to acceptance. Usually it involves 35km hike and a lot of nature but this time it wasn't possible. 

 

7 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Why do you feel you would need to better yourself just because one woman wasn't interested after 3 dates? 

It is potentially an opportunity for growth. Of course I don't know for sure because one of the scenarios is that I have absolutely done nothing wrong and it's just a matter of perception and her needs/wishes - and that's fine. But I don't do those things by volume, so I try to take these situations and make them useful even if they hurt.. 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Legatus

[ExpatInItaly]

3 hours ago, Legatus said:

It is potentially an opportunity for growth

I wouldn't assign that much importance to something that fizzled after just 3 dates. 

Sometimes things just don't click. There needn't be deeper lessons behind it, especially when it keeps you stuck. 

[Legatus]

Totally true but if you don't think about it, you won't know. The amount of dates is irrelevant, rather my reactions and being exposed to new behaviours : )

[Alpacalia]

On 9/3/2023 at 2:05 AM, Legatus said:

I see your point. Let me add some details. Her physical initiation wasn't a problem. By 3rd date I felt comfortable enough with her that those things balanced out. 

You're right, we didn't discuss anything because we only met three times. She said during our dates that she liked the connection we had while dancing and she was glad we met, and I reciprocated it too. 

I didn't tell her of any expectations. That's why I was still hung on her, more about that I could think that she had expectations based on how quick she moved but then I got a message that she doesn't know what I wanted. Of course, we were just getting to know each other and it would take much loore than three dates for me to begin thinking whether I could form a relationship. 

When I told her I had no expectations she just replied that she was glad to read my message and also appreciated my honesty.

No, we weren't deeply invested. It would be just good to know why her mind changed and when did she think I was expecting anything of her. But at the same time, I could wish for unicorns to be real too

Well, you can't expect her to keep dating you when you're not sure what you want. Even though physical initiation wasn't a problem, the more important things are the emotional connection and the expectations. Maybe she wanted more than what you were able to give her during those three dates, so she backed off. You can't know for sure.

[Legatus]

She may have wanted indeed. I will probably will never know since it wasn't a topic on our dates. I didn't expect anything of her    What I wanted was to get to know her and whether this would lead to something, that depeneds on how things go. I definitely do not make these decisions/expectations within first three dates. 

[Alpacalia]

Understood. I see where you're coming from.

It appears that you're experiencing stronger emotions than you initially expected, considering your initial lack of expectations. This is a great example to show that when it comes to emotions, they don't always match up with expectations.

Ultimately, it's perfectly valid to feel the way you do, even if it seems puzzling at times.

[Legatus]

We all have our battles to fight. MIne is usually with thinking or as other people would call "over-thinking" but it gets better with each interaction and the need to know why is lesser than the one before : )

[Versacehottie]

On 9/2/2023 at 10:42 AM, Legatus said:

Brain exploded. Thank you for this insight

There's just one more question I have. My analysts brain can't let it slide, unfortunately. The message I sent about thinking about her wasn't like sexting of any kind, I just said I thought of her, and her lips, and how we kissed). Was it too much? I am demi-sexual so physical contact comes later in dating and I don't rush it but somehow I didn't resist her because it felt right. The tone of the message was a bit "more" to se how she reponds and of course I got the answer but I don't think it was neither me being clingy, over-the-top, love-bombing, or anything like that, was it?

Sure🙂 I think you can apply the "evaluating" thing to lots of things in life but dating is a perfect example. If you have a tendency to overthink or are trying to "win someone over" because you thee is something you really want or want to achieve, I think sometimes people try too hard to their own disadvantage. Especially in a dating context because what the other person wants to get is someone they see as their equal OR better and the impression it gives when one is trying too hard is that they do that because they are NOT you're equal. It doesn't even really matter what the truth is but the perception is weighted extremely heavily, especially at the early stages...that's all people really are going on, right?  You can easily 'shift" the impression you give by reminding yourself and backing it up with your actions and patterns of speech that you are in evaluating mode. TBH, that IS exactly what you should be doing anyway. In reality, you probably don't have enough information to know if you should be "all in" on someone...but a significant amount of people will try to overdo it for various reasons but yeah usually people pleasing, goal-oriented ones, some desperation, anxiety-type stuff. I basically think they are just concerned with "doing well" or obtaining value from a source exterior to themselves rather than what that person TRULY means to them--because in all honesty, there is no way they could know yet or have enough bonding to feel that strongly really. 

So in a way it's a good thing to analyze--like I agree with you (contrary to some of the others) that it's good to always be learning and improving...there is value in the smallest, shortest experiences. If you don't let over-analysis paralyze you or believe that you can "think" your way out of everything, then learning from real experience and refining etc is pretty much the best teacher there is.  

hmmm, IMO, based on how you described the dates at that point so far, I think the bolded in your question is a little much on average. It feels too romantic or over the top or trying too hard to force things--I think it's important to read the moment or collection of moments, in your situation, leading up to that point. And at that point it was probably a bit much--because she wasn't responding as if she was totally into you like that (yet)...I think perhaps a comment like that would either turn off someone who was on the fence about you and figuring it out or expose that "oops I think it's about time I let this guy know I don't feel the same." IMO, you probably couldn't go wrong with holding back on comments like that--then by the time you give one, she'd probably appreciate it (the general "she") and it would be reality-based and match the level of how close you are and not feel forced or not genuine. Also if you hadn't had much physical contact other than a kiss--it sounds a bit over the top too; whereas if you'd done a bit more physically then perhaps it would feel appropriate to both of you. Idk, though that could be different, depending on your culture (Spain, right?). Lol I do think Europeans do that a lot more naturally and thus it's more expected/natural. 

With the italicized part of your message above, hmmm IMO those kind of labels on yourself make things far too complicated. Also you are sort of focusing on how you usually are with a person that doesn't know you, rather than just reading what is going on in the moment and understanding how she would react. I guess you guessed wrong. (sorry!). So learning to read a girl's cues would be highly important. I think that goes for lots of people so don't feel that singled out! It's interesting how you didn't think it would come off as clingy, over-the-top or love-bombing--I sort of think it could be interpreted as exactly those things. I would probably drop "love-bombing" because it doesn't quite meet that definition but yes to the other two descriptors. And so the very fact that you didn't think they were those things but a neutral stranger thinks they could be and seems like she thought they were "something" perhaps something like that, shows that you need to work on reading the other person or just holding back a touch. I would guess you did this because you were all in compared to her and not on the same page...and you thought the way to "win her over" was to "DO MORE" rather than meet her where she is. The "DO MORE" thing fits right in with the other stuff I was talking about at the beginning of this post (how I am guessing you "tend" to process the world of your romantic interests)...so you might have to do some things that are counterintuitive sometimes. That said, I don't think people should "change" themselves too much to find who their partner--ultimately had you said that line and the girl was the right girl she likely would have loved it. Lol I'm not contradicting myself too much but perhaps try to find a balance between "being yourself when you feel the moment is right" and learning to assess where the other person is so you can be closer to being on the same page.  Ok good luck!

[Legatus]

1 hour ago, Versacehottie said:

I would guess you did this because you were all in compared to her and not on the same page

Actually I wasn't all in, nowhere close. I did it because I needed to get a reaction as the two days before that, I was getting different feeling about her than before. I knew that it was risky but something was off after that last date. 

It's interesting that you think it's clingy and over-the-top. I mean, in a way, I needed it to be over-the-top, but only because, again, to get a reaction rather than be ghosted. She felt a bit over the top with physical intimacy, so I thought it would be good to see if she wants to keep the flirt going. I also didn't feel like I have to win her over, more to see where her head was at. Ultimately it could still have been the wrong move, or simply I got the confirmation of something that was already cooking in her head.

Most likely I will never know  but the reason why I want to process it, even if it is in a bit over-thought manner for some, is so that once I do, I can nicely put it in far corners of my mind, and I won't need any explanation from her, should I meet her. So there's a method to this madness. If I think, understand, and accept (even if it's just about my actions, as I can't know her reasns, thoughts, and meaning behind her actions) then I no longer have the need to ask her about it, message her, and so on...

2 hours ago, Versacehottie said:

It feels too romantic or over the top or trying too hard to force things

After I sent it, I thought I perhaps overdid it a bit, that her physical intimacy didn't necessarily equal an emotional connection and even the slight "I thought of you" could be seen by her as signalling that I feel more than she was ready for (I wasn't). 

 

2 hours ago, Versacehottie said:

So in a way it's a good thing to analyze--like I agree with you (contrary to some of the others) that it's good to always be learning and improving...there is value in the smallest, shortest experiences. If you don't let over-analysis paralyze you or believe that you can "think" your way out of everything, then learning from real experience and refining etc is pretty much the best teacher there is.  

I think so too. It's not like three years ago where something like this would send me down the anxiety spiral and my urge to message somebody would be too much. This time I have control over the thinking, but I still prefer to do it rather than just brush it off. Whether I botched it or not with a message, I still like going through my actions, and reactions, to see if I could do something with more thought and awareness..

[Wiseman2]

9 minutes ago, Legatus said:

 It's not like three years ago where something like this would send me down the anxiety spiral and my urge to message somebody would be too much. 

Most of the time, you'll never truly know why someone backs out of a dating situation.

A great deal of the time it has to do with them, not you or something you can control, like their tastes and preferences or whatever else is going on with them.

So in effect you are "analyzing"  a non-entity. In that regard it's the same anxiety spiral. Perhaps address that rather than externalizing it on to her or this particular situation? 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Wiseman2

[Legatus]

12 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

So in effect you are "analyzing"  a non-entity. In that regard it's the same anxiety spiral. Perhaps address that rather than externalizing it on to her or this particular situation? 

And, weirdly enough, it's not the same. I am totally aware that I will not know what happened and that's okay. The analysing helps me accept it. I'm not trying to guess what she thought or why she did something but asking other people if my actions could have a specific effect is a great way of learning more. Essentially it's the closest equivalent to feedback from her and believe me, after reading all those messages here, it doesn't make me believe that one particular thing happened, I'm not choosing a narrative that fits best in my head. Just reading through your comments makes my brain becoming more accepting of the whole situation and be readier next time

[basil67]

4 minutes ago, Legatus said:

 but asking other people if my actions could have a specific effect is a great way of learning more.

I see where you're going here, but how do you deal with the fact that one person may love that thing about you and another may really dislike it?   

[Legatus]

10 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I see where you're going here, but how do you deal with the fact that one person may love that thing about you and another may really dislike it?   

I don't think I follow. By "asking other people" I meant this forum 

[Alpacalia]

I think it's good that you want to learn from this experience and find a way to move on from it.

Everyone can always do better when moving forward from difficult situations, and reflecting on how we could have handled things differently is a helpful step. However, it's also important to remember that it takes two to tango, and some things are simply out of our control.

It's not possible to "un-botch" a situation that was out of our hands to begin with. I will say though that in general, it's important to think about how our actions could be read by others, and to consider if we might be sending messages that are out of alignment with our own intentions. If you feel that you have done that in this situation, it's important to be honest and accountable to yourself and the other person even if it cannot be changed.

[Versacehottie]

10 hours ago, Legatus said:

Actually I wasn't all in, nowhere close. I did it because I needed to get a reaction as the two days before that, I was getting different feeling about her than before. I knew that it was risky but something was off after that last date. 

It's interesting that you think it's clingy and over-the-top. I mean, in a way, I needed it to be over-the-top, but only because, again, to get a reaction rather than be ghosted. She felt a bit over the top with physical intimacy, so I thought it would be good to see if she wants to keep the flirt going. I also didn't feel like I have to win her over, more to see where her head was at. Ultimately it could still have been the wrong move, or simply I got the confirmation of something that was already cooking in her head.

Most likely I will never know  but the reason why I want to process it, even if it is in a bit over-thought manner for some, is so that once I do, I can nicely put it in far corners of my mind, and I won't need any explanation from her, should I meet her. So there's a method to this madness. If I think, understand, and accept (even if it's just about my actions, as I can't know her reasns, thoughts, and meaning behind her actions) then I no longer have the need to ask her about it, message her, and so on...

Yeah you SAY you weren't "all in" and yet at the same time you are doing behaviors that could be consider that way or too much or not on the same page as the person you are dating. I agree with Wiseman that this is just another version of the same anxiety. In fact, as you've gone into it more with the post quoted above that you "needed to get a reaction" from her that is anxiety SCREAMING. Much like your comment about whatever you said about being demi-sexual or whatever, you are so in your head/your thoughts that you are JUSTIFYING actions that are "too much". Trying to get a reaction because you "need the answer" is to sooth your anxiety. It's a vicious circle/cycle...have you ever thought that it was stuff you did that caused her to be "off"...I would guess at least part of that could be traced back to your anxiety, anxious thoughts, behaviors etc. You think you are concealing it but you likely are not. Anxious people quite often take the "risk" as you said above, like you need to know something immediately on some arbitrary timeline and will explode any budding relationship. In their minds they then do mental gymnastics to justify it/blame the other person. It takes two--there is no way that happened in a bubble of just her stuff. 

I do think it's clingy--especially as you say more, I'm getting the vibe that she likely got. It comes off as possessive in order to sooth your anxiety, which is a bottomless pit. It's soooooo not the confident thing to do to push so hard for an answer...so that you don't get ghosted...so then in fact you essentially get ghosted (ok, you got a conversation and then ghosted).  It feels possessive and unconfident. Who cares if you get ghosted???!!! A guy with options isn't even thinking like that! You need to exude that vibe not this frightened (cloaked with some fake bravado bc you pushed for an answer and took the "risk"). Sure of course maybe she just wasn't into you--however, I'd guess she was at one point but that with more continued exposure to you she discovered more about you and how you are and that influenced her decision. She didn't have some FIXED pre-determined point or intention--every choice she made was influenced by you and vice versa. If you want to change your outcomes, you need to change some of what you INPUT...with whomever. I know you said you are about growth and experiences, so will you really take this advice/perspective or just justify whatever you want to do and drive people away? I am telling you I would think it's way too much. So a portion of the girls you might try to date will think as I do. 

I do agree that you can give yourself the answers with some reflection on this. The question is are you just taking the feedback you get either from us or more importantly the girls you date and just getting more adept at anxious behaviors, like they morph but are just different versions of the same stuff.

10 hours ago, Legatus said:

After I sent it, I thought I perhaps overdid it a bit, that her physical intimacy didn't necessarily equal an emotional connection and even the slight "I thought of you" could be seen by her as signalling that I feel more than she was ready for (I wasn't). 

Yeah, I think you need to work on your messaging...there is a big difference between "I'm thinking of you or thought of you today" vs whatever you actually said about her lips etc...The first can be innocent or sweet  depending on the context and the stuff you actually said about lips etc is likely over the top in context and indicates being in some kind of mesmerized state lol!

 

10 hours ago, Legatus said:

It's not like three years ago where something like this would send me down the anxiety spiral and my urge to message somebody would be too much. This time I have control over the thinking, but I still prefer to do it rather than just brush it off. Whether I botched it or not with a message, I still like going through my actions, and reactions, to see if I could do something with more thought and awareness..

Hmmm...you know it kind of feels like you are still in a version of an anxiety spiral if I'm being honest. Perhaps your overall confidence has increased so you see it as good "risk" bc you prefer to "do it" (guessing that means you will ask where you stand with someone or say the comments on your mind)...but in a way you are still seeking reassurance rather than KNOWING you will be fine regardless. Even the irrational worry about being ghosted overtook normal operations of dating where you pushed too hard IMO. I think you just think if you gather all the data, and the information and the feedback and do the analysis, that your brain will spit out the correct "path" to get what you want from another person in a dating relationship. It's like you are ripe for over strategize it. Like your anxiety now is slightly more sophisticated but still giving you the flawed information that you can outstrategize (and justify your actions even if they are still anxiety-driven). Idk, IMO you need to ask yourself what is the worst that could happen if I say the wrong comment, don't get to date this girl for whatever reason, etc.And I think your strategies have to be more about how you manage your anxiety and getting real with yourself about it rather than trying to craft the perfect message (that was a clue to me that you are still doing the anxiety spiral). Anyway, as always, good luck

Edited September 5, 2023 by Versacehottie

[Legatus]

58 minutes ago, Versacehottie said:

I do agree that you can give yourself the answers with some reflection on this. The question is are you just taking the feedback you get either from us or more importantly the girls you date and just getting more adept at anxious behaviors, like they morph but are just different versions of the same stuff.

I do value that feedback enormously and no, it's not just to get better at covering the behaviours. It's to discover those behaviours, which looks like I still have at times. I knew that it's not that I have no problems or anxiety while dating anymore (hence I mentioned the scarcity vs abudnance mindset at the beginning) but here I had a problem recognising it. Thank you for helping me see that things were over-the-top and clingy, it makes sense now while I'm reading your reactions to it. Unfortunately, when one has been in a bubble of his head for many years, it became hard to notice. You all are helping me a lot. It's just next step in this discovery to a healthier mindset and dating lifestyle. 

You are totally right I was seeking reasurrance. This is still creeping from my fear of abandonment, or even the need to know that exact moment when something went wrong. Now I have new information that I can definitely think about and try to internalise. 

 

The difference in anxiety is still substantial because even though I may still feel it and, unfortunately, still act based on it, which I wish I wouldn't, in the past it would manifest much stronger even with physical symptoms. I know it may not look like it but despite the wrong actions and reasons behind them, at least I came here to ask for help

Edited September 5, 2023 by Legatus

[Alpacalia]

I feel that there might have been a misunderstanding in your perception of her intentions. During your interactions, it was evident that she enjoyed the connection, actively initiated physical contact, engaged in reciprocated banter, and maintained meaningful interaction. Even after her message, when she referred to it as 'good banter,' it strongly suggests that she wasn't ready to end things abruptly.

When she expressed gratitude for your honesty, it appeared more like a sign of her disappointment. It likely indicated that she wished for greater clarity regarding the nature of your connection. Your initial composed response was perfectly reasonable, so her subsequent inquiries were a natural response. As for your message potentially being too lengthy, I genuinely don't believe that was the case.

It's possible she misinterpreted your message, leading to questions about your expectations. However, in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't excessive. I understand that you weren't seeking a committed relationship or anything of the sort. Rather, you expected that the vibe between you two would remain consistent with the enjoyable chemistry you shared during your dates.

In hindsight, it might have been beneficial to express yourself more openly during your encounters. When she seemed uncertain about something, asking her about her thoughts at the time might have been a more constructive approach than adopting a wait-and-see stance. 

Given that it was summer vacation and you were both away for a while, you had an opportunity to reflect on the situation. During your absence, you met someone else, and she wasn't even on your radar when you returned.

In essence, both of you had time to contemplate the situation. Overall, I don't believe you made any significant mistakes. It's mainly a matter of interpreting her responses differently and offering more clarity during your dates, which could have potentially avoided this situation. You might have prevented the anxiety spiral if you had reached out to her after your last meeting and had an open conversation instead of waiting and growing anxious. Nonetheless, I understand your reasons for your actions.

Ultimately, understanding the situation and being honest with yourself and others is crucial. Taking some risks is perfectly acceptable, but it's always advisable to communicate your intentions and feelings openly.

When you did provide her with a clear opportunity to continue the conversation by expressing your enjoyment of your time together without expectations, her lack of engagement indicated that once she asked for space, she was no longer interested in pursuing the flirtation further. You made an effort to keep things going, but regrettably, it seems she had lost interest by then.

In any event, things happened for a reason, and though it seems like an unfortunate outcome it's probably for the best in the long run.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Alpacalia

[basil67]

14 hours ago, basil67 said:

I see where you're going here, but how do you deal with the fact that one person may love that thing about you and another may really dislike it?   

Sorry to be confusing...I was referring to the learning part.  You're analysing your actions and looking at where things went wrong.  Thing is though, what's wrong for one person may be right for another.  Your message about the kiss would have been very well received if she felt the same way as you, so I don't think you did the wrong thing there.  I'd hate to think of you pulling back on messages like that if the next woman you date is sitting at home thinking about how great the kiss was!   But as it is, if she wasn't feeling the same way as you, it's likely that she was already so-so about the connection between you.  And if she was feeling that way, then your message really only saved both of you wasted time.

I read things here all the time where some people are really attracted to particular traits while others will not be interested.  For instance I have traits which would turn off guy who was attracted to women who are sweet, gentle and feminine (not that there's anything wrong with that!)  I laugh too loud, I fart, I'm sexually aggressive, I put on my PJs when I'm in for the afternoon, I have very short hair, I don't wear heels, forget to wear makeup...though I do love dresses, and food and cooking and I'll make sure your car gets serviced.  And despite not being every man's cup of tea, I have a husband who is fine with me just how I am (though he'd prefer if I was tidier) 

My own view is that one should strive to be the best person they can be, while remaining true to themselves.  Generally speaking....and off the top of my head, best relationship self would include being kind, courteous, knowing how to take criticism without being defensive, knowing how to give constructive feedback kindly, making an effort, be employed, be financially sensible, get on top of any addictions.      

So don't stop sending texts which are warm and a little sexy, because if I was into a guy who sent it, I would have loved receiving it...and probably upped the ante in a return text.  

[Legatus]

13 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

In hindsight, it might have been beneficial to express yourself more openly during your encounters. When she seemed uncertain about something, asking her about her thoughts at the time might have been a more constructive approach than adopting a wait-and-see stance. 

That is the biggest lesson for me here. I should have been more opened and just honestly ask whether something was going on, or what gave her the vibe that I was expecting some commitment - I was going back and forth with this one. On one hand I didn't want to be too inquisitive and ask for explanations, on another I knew it would be perfectly fine to ask for clarity and details. Thank you @Alpacaliafor your invaluable insight!

 

13 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

I feel that there might have been a misunderstanding in your perception of her intentions. During your interactions, it was evident that she enjoyed the connection, actively initiated physical contact, engaged in reciprocated banter, and maintained meaningful interaction. Even after her message, when she referred to it as 'good banter,' it strongly suggests that she wasn't ready to end things abruptly.

This was the biggest head-banger. She initiated a lot so I wanted to move it offline and see what happens. In no way did I think it would send her into thinking about commitment or expectations - I totally didn't expect that. But in the end, she ended it abrubptly and I decided to give her space rather than ask for more and more information.