no idea what's happening

[frenchfry]

hey all, i'm happy to have found a supportive place to learn, share, and support folks who are going through a similar thing.

i'm a single guy in my mid-thirties. i have never done anything like this before. i'm in a grad program with the married woman i've been seeing. she lives with her husband and they have a two-year-old daughter. they were on-and-off for roughly 16 years, tied the knot about six years ago. she used to work, but she's been financially dependent on him since she started this very demanding program. when we met, she immediately started flirting with me. first it was subtle, then she was trying to be alone with me all the time. i rejected her advances for weeks because her being married scared the crap out of me and i hated the idea of breaking up a family. but we kept texting and meeting up in person and eventually i asked her where this was going and why she was pursuing me, and she said "to see if this is something real." i knew she was a package deal. i don't have kids, but i'd work hard to face the seen and unseen challenges i'd face.

things got heavy with this woman very quickly, and i fell deeply in love. she said on numerous occasions that the feeling was mutual. at times, i would tell her that i was afraid that she would string me along forever. sometimes she would tell me that she doesn't intend to leave her husband and her baby despite her unhappiness with him, and other times she would say that eventually, when she can, she will. i was skeptical, but i stayed on the hook.

after six months of a very emotional and physical affair, her husband caught her texting me. he demanded that she call me and break things off, and that's what she did. that was three months ago. she convinced him that the affair was not physical (not true), she told him she would begin seeing a therapist (which did not last very long), and that she would not speak with me anymore (also very not true). he started reading her texts and tracking her location with her phone. we still see each other twice a week in classes, we sit next to each other and talk during and after classes, and she texts me when he's not around. she even came to my house a week ago and we were intimate twice.

today i had a conversation with her that left me reeling. long story short, i asked her if she is still in love with her husband, and she said yes. i asked if she is still in love with me, and she said she is not sure. she said things are fine between her and her husband; she's not happy about everything in her relationship but she's happy enough and it seems it's been swept under the rug. i told her that it is okay if that is how she feels, and although it breaks my heart, if that is the case then she should not talk to me anymore for both of our sakes. i cautioned her that if she's not in love with me, then talking to me puts her marriage at even greater risk than DDay1 did (and for no good reason), and that her relationship with her child may eventually suffer too. she said she values me as a person, as a friend, and "obviously as much more than a friend," and that she doesn't want to lose me. she added that she is very attracted to me and feels drawn to me, all of which i found confusing. she ultimately told me that i don't get to decide what's best for her, but she doesn't want to continue hurting me selfishly and she doesn't know what the "right thing" to do is. i replied that she doesn't get to decide what's best for me either.

after that, i told her that if she wants to continue on with us, i want to be clear that i am pursuing exclusivity, but i'd like to hear from her a bit more often so that i don't spiral out and assume the worst. she wasn't exactly clear about whether she intends to talk more often. then we made out, passionately as ever, and she had to go home to relieve her nanny. i see her again one week from today. she's spending the holiday weekend vacationing with her husband, baby, and her friends.

honestly, i'm at a loss. she won't cut me off, but she's backed off the communication when she's at home. but still, when she's with me, she's all over me. the way that she looks at me, i feel that she values me and desires me. i value myself too - but the pain that this situation brings is really making me wonder if i do.

thanks for reading.

[stillafool]

31 minutes ago, frenchfry said:

honestly, i'm at a loss. she won't cut me off, but she's backed off the communication when she's at home. but still, when she's with me, she's all over me. the way that she looks at me, i feel that she values me and desires me. i value myself too - but the pain that this situation brings is really making me wonder if i do.

Of course she isn't going to cut you off because she wants her cake and to eat it too.  She's selfish.  You have to be the one to save yourself and stop seeing and having sex with her.  She has told you she isn't going to leave her husband and he certainly isn't going to hand her over to you.  She will continue to break your heart until you find the strength to let her go.  You're probably not her first affair.

[RebeccaR]

She has a very small child and is financially dependent on her child’s father. Moreover, she admits she loves her husband. She’s as much as told you she’s not leaving her marriage. Why are you even holding out hope? Sorry to say, it’s obvious she’s using you for thrills.

Can you switch into a different class section so you don’t have to see her? Otherwise you’ll continue to be drawn back in.

[Wiseman2]

44 minutes ago, frenchfry said:

 the married woman i've been seeing. she lives with her husband and they have a two-year-old daughter. she's been financially dependent on him . and she doesn't know what the "right thing" to do is.

The situation is rather clear cut. She's looking for extramarital affairs. She knows what the "right thing" to do is, she's just getting away with not doing it.

Try to reflect and focus what you're getting out of this besides  easy commitment-free sex.   

Perhaps playing with fire is the excitement?  For example knowing about the husband's tracking and having her to your place for sex? 

At some level you know this won't end well but that's the thrill of entertaining high risk situations. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Wiseman2

[JTSW]

56 minutes ago, frenchfry said:

she won't cut me off, but she's backed off the communication when she's at home. but still, when she's with me, she's all over me.

You need to cut her off.

Have some respect for her family.

Do the right thing and end this completely for the sake of her baby girl because she will be affected the most in all this.

You don't have to sit next to her in your class, just sit the opposite side of the room. 

Regardless of what she says, you are just being used for extramarital fun.

[glows]

Are you hoping she’s exclusive with you while still married? Not clear here what your expectations are. 

This will probably fade off or end either way as she’s dependent on her husband. She lies to him about seeing/speaking to you so would not trust much of what she says to you. See my drift? She’s already shown you who she is. The ball is really in your court to see what’s in front of you. 

If you’re hoping she leaves her husband it’s not likely from what you’ve mentioned. Back out graciously and end it, no contact. It seems unfulfilling in terms of a relationship and what you want is at odds with what she’s able to offer.

[mark clemson]

Agree with many above. This is just how she is. Being caught was an "opportunity" for her to leave her marriage (and for he husband to end it as well) but that didn't happen. So it's clear where she stands.

She isn't going to be what you want unless she ends up leaving the marriage. And you note that she came to you. That means she might well be looking for potential new partners while in a (full, open) relationship with you.

"Simple" isn't always the same as "easy," and that's particularly true when it comes to romantic relationships. However, the straightforward thing to do here is walk away and find a new, single woman you can have a full relationship with. It seems like the longer you "orbit" her, the longer you keep yourself from having that.

[frenchfry]

thanks to all for reading my story and for providing honest, non-judgmental feedback. lots of questions to answer. honestly, i held out hope because i believed that our feelings were strong and mutual, we cannot take separate classes and will see each other regularly over the next several years because of school, and because i have had a difficult year that involved two immediate family members passing right before this started. she was aware of those losses and i guess i trusted that she wouldn't play me. she was also back-and-forth about us being together one day, and i was foolishly optimistic that we could have a future together.

sincerely, i get no conscious thrill from "playing with fire" or being a secret; it's mostly just guilt and pain. but i acknowledge that the subconscious is complex. i believed and hoped i was facilitating an exit that was already inevitable, and it wasn't until several months into the relationship where i started to learn things about their marriage that made me question that assumption. she seldom was forthcoming about it, and when i would ask, she would say she would rather talk about it some other time or she'd be dodgy in other ways. i didn't know what to make of that at the time. a few times when she did talk about it without me asking, she would say that she wanted me instead of her husband - no concrete plans though. after discovery, she said she wants to stay with him and work on their marriage, but she doesn't want to end things between us or "lose" me. when i'd ask her if there was a chance at a future together, she'd say cryptic "idk, the future is unwritten" nonsense. i'm tired of the ambivalence and the mixed messaging.

throughout the relationship, i refused to go to their home or meet their child unless she split up with him, and she invited me to her house to spend time with her and their kid several times while he was away. i drew the line there; no way. my expectation/hope was that she would separate/divorce her husband and we'd try out a relationship. in hindsight, i obviously should not have let this progress unless they were separated. i was, and to a large degree still am, swept up in these feelings despite the many, many red flags. but this morning i texted her telling her i was done and that i do not want her to contact me anymore. she replied "ok, if that's what you need. i wish this wasn't so contentious, but it's ok" with a red heart emoji. i have no choice but to be around her continuously for the next several years. before this, i have tried to be a moral person throughout my life and i want to do the right thing. i don't want to hurt innocent people. i don't want to be hurt by her or be made a fool of anymore, but it's really challenging when i can feel her looking at me.

[RebeccaR]

She doesn’t sound like a good person, honestly. She didn’t get swept away like you feel you did. I agree with others that she has probably done this before. It’s even possible her husband is in on this - anything is possible. I recommended therapy to deal with this “breakup” and also to process your losses. Sorry for what you’ve been through but ending it is definitely the right thing.

[BaileyB]

15 hours ago, frenchfry said:

i told her that if she wants to continue on with us, i want to be clear that i am pursuing exclusivity

How exactly can you be exclusive with this woman when she is married and has a child with another man. 

I mean, in the next paragraph you say - 

15 hours ago, frenchfry said:

i see her again one week from today. she's spending the holiday weekend vacationing with her husband, baby, and her friends.

She has another life - with her husband, their child, and their friends. 

With kindness, you really need to put the fantasy that she is going to leave her husband and be exclusively in a relationship with you out of your mind. It’s not an option because a) she’s told you that she loves her husband and she has no intention to leave and b) she chose her husband when your affair was discovered. That was her opportunity to be honest with him and make a different decision if she wanted to be in a relationship with you and she did not do that. 

When someone’s words do not match their actions, pay attention to the actions.  She tells you that she has feelings for you but she also tells you that she loves her husband. She has been in a long term relationship with the man - they are married, they share a home, a child, finances, friends, family… she may be attracted to you and affectionate with you but she goes home to her family every night and that says it all about her intentions… her commitment. 

15 hours ago, frenchfry said:

the way that she looks at me, i feel that she values me and desires me.

Desire is a feeling and feelings are fleeting. Feelings mean nothing compared to the commitment that she has made to her husband, her child, and her marriage. 

Don’t mistake desire, physical attraction, and physical intimacy with love, commitment, or loyalty. 

I have no doubt that if you asked her husband, he would say that she desires her husband, that she tells him that she loves him, that he enjoys the physical intimacy and affection that they share in their marriage. 

She does not value you or she wouldn’t be asking you to sacrifice your values, your time, your hope for a future relationship when she knows that she can never offer you anything more than a few stolen moments. She doesn’t value her husband or she wouldn’t be sneaking around behind his back and having sex with another man. She doesn’t value her child or she wouldn’t be putting the stability of the family at risk. 

She is selfishly pursuing her own interests at the expense of everyone else in her life - you, her husband, her child. 

If you value yourself, you need to end this relationship. Honestly, I’m not even going to suggest that you tell her to contact you when/if she is divorced. This is not a woman worthy of your love and trust - she has proven herself to be a dishonest, untrustworthy, and disloyal person… There are so many good and loyal women in this world - you really don’t need to settle for another man’s wife. Let them be and go in search of a relationship that will bring you all the love and affection that you feel for this woman - without the loneliness, heartache, and disappointment of knowing that she sleeps with another man every night  

Edited May 26, 2023 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

7 hours ago, frenchfry said:

she was aware of those losses and i guess i trusted that she wouldn't play me.

I’m sorry for your loss and I’m sorry to say, she has played you like a fiddle. 

7 hours ago, frenchfry said:

i believed and hoped i was facilitating an exit that was already inevitable

This kind of thinking is very common for those in affairs, good people need to justify decisions that they know deep down are not in keeping with their ethics and values. 

The simple truth is, you have no right to “facilitate” an exit that was already inevitable. Her marriage is her marriage and you have no right to interfere. IF their marriage is ending, do they both not deserve the time and space to end their relationship and settle their affairs without the interference of a third party? If you were married and your marriage was struggling or perhaps ending and another man decided to involve himself and “facilitate” an exit that was already inevitable - would you not find that hugely disrespectful?

People who overlap relationships and don’t take the time and space to deal with and grieve the end of their marriage are a HUGE red flag. Emotionally healthy people don’t monkey branch from one serious relationship to another. 

7 hours ago, frenchfry said:

when i'd ask her if there was a chance at a future together, she'd say cryptic "idk, the future is unwritten" nonsense. i'm tired of the ambivalence and the mixed messaging.

It is nonsense and you should be tired of it. She has stung you along with a bunch of half truths and false promises… that would infuriate me. 

7 hours ago, frenchfry said:

she invited me to her house to spend time with her and their kid several times while he was away.

Another HUGE red flag - this woman has no respect for boundaries. Imagine, you are married to her and she introduces another man to your child? How disrespectful is that? How confusing and harmful for her child? This is a boundary that few affair partner’s cross - the fact that she had no problem with it tells you something…

7 hours ago, frenchfry said:

this morning i texted her telling her i was done and that i do not want her to contact me anymore. she replied "ok, if that's what you need. i wish this wasn't so contentious, but it's ok"

It’s not contentious, it’s just over. Nothing more to say. No more games to play. Good for you for ending it. 

Wish you the best. You may not feel this way at this moment, but you have dodged a HUGE bullet here. You really don’t want to be with a woman that you can not trust - and you should not trust this woman, she can’t give you a straight answer, you know that she is a liar, and you know that she does not respect boundaries in relationships. That’s all you need to know…

Edited May 26, 2023 by BaileyB

[frenchfry]

again, thank you - for the tough love, support, and feedback. perhaps i was unclear. i am not seeing her by choice next week. we are in a graduate program together and cannot avoid seeing each other. classes are small and multiple sections are not offered. and if i drop out of this program, my chance of getting accepted into another one is nil. that is how programs like mine are, and i am very fortunate to be in my program. unfortunately, it is not a "find another job" kind of situation. i wish it was.

when i said i was pursuing exclusivity, i meant that i made my intentions clear to her (for the umpteenth time) that i do not want to be a sidepiece indefinitely. yesterday, i told her she shouldn't be talking to me if she loves her husband and wants to stay in her marriage. and then today i took a firm stance and asked her not to contact me.

i don't entirely disagree with you about desire, but it's my view that relationships, love, and commitment are initially built on promising emotional connection and the fleeting and wavering experiences of desire, physical attraction, and physical intimacy. i recognize that i was only getting the latter three from her, and her husband gets them all. i also recognize that there is more to romantic love than desire - there's sacrifice, selflessness, acceptance, compromise, etc. i'm not a particularly old or wise guy, but it's my understanding that lifelong relationships need all of the above to survive and thrive. i had hoped to build on what we had, as one would with any relationship. i am working on letting that hope go, and i appreciate that you acknowledge that it is hard. i know that it is necessary.

i intend to keep my distance for the sake of all involved, i just know it will be challenging given we'll have to spend at least two days a week in classes together for the next few years, and my cohort is less than two dozen people.

[glows]

She’ll just have to see you move on a date other people. Right now the world may seem like a small place in that classroom. Think long term. These feelings will pass the less and less emphasis you place on her.

If she asks you about life or how your weekend has been for ie while in class, bland and generic answers only. “Too short.” “Same old, same old.” And say you have to catch up on some work. Move along. Next. 

The emphasis is really on YOU. Your life and you moving forwards. She’s already made her choice. 

 

[Ageless Wisdom23]

Please, You need to be strong.  This wonderful woman you love and adore so much is only going to continue to break your heart.  She is married with a child and even if her relationship is in a rut under her rough going roof, She probably will never leave  her husband.  At least for the sake of their child.  You wil😪l be missing her during their family vacations, holidays will be lonely and heartbreaking, and the more you are with her(Whenever she can fit you in or chooses to)the harder it will be when you know she is with him and still has not left him.  You deserve someone who is perfect for you.  And available to be free to love you and to see the amazing man you seem as though you are.  This woman is "blinded" by love on both ends. Don't allow her to take her cake and eat it two.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Ageless Wisdom23

[JTSW]

4 hours ago, frenchfry said:

it will be challenging given we'll have to spend at least two days a week in classes together for the next few years, and my cohort is less than two dozen people.

It will be fine as long as you keep your distance from her in class and don't pay her any mind.

Focus your mind on something else.

[Wiseman2]

4 hours ago, frenchfry said:

 it's my view that relationships, love, and commitment are initially built on promising emotional connection and the fleeting and wavering experiences of desire, physical attraction, and physical intimacy.

You could definitely find all those things with available single women. All you need to do is set yourself free. 

That means delete and block her and all her people from ALL your social media and messaging apps. Avoid her in class and be neutral. 

The things you want aren't unusual or elusive, you're just looking in the wrong place. You may sincerity want a committed relationship, but you're not going to get that from a woman who sleeps around while her husband pays the bills. 

Get a good profile and pics on quality dating apps and start talking to and meeting single available decent women.

[mark clemson]

You live your life and make your decisions according to your own morals and views, not other peoples'. If you felt it was ok to start things up while she was (you believed) in the process of ending things, that's really your business and not someone else's place to judge or decide. It appears you didn't have reasons to believe things were otherwise for some time.

That said, in this case it's clear that either that was baloney or possibly she changed her mind. Don't feel too bad. There's no one in the world so smart that they can't be deceived. At any rate, either way the end result is the same.

The good news is there are plenty of other fish in the sea. Don't let her keep you hooked in with heart emojis and the like. She's made her choice.

Edited May 26, 2023 by mark clemson

[OurLoveTurnsToRust]

First, forgive yourself for having an error in judgement, second, don't make the same mistake again.

[Darren Steez]

. i am not seeing her by choice next week. we are in a graduate program together and cannot avoid seeing each other.

Thought she was coming to your house to be intimate, you're also finding enough privacy to have make out sessions. 

She has sex with her husband then with you. Go and date someone else, you're wasting your own time with this "prize"