My friend's 11 yrs old son - should I talk to my friend?

[Stret]

I'm 44 and have been friends with "Danny" for 40 years. It has never been an intense kid of a friendship but we see each other regularly, each month perhaps, sometimes each week, and we talk about everything. He's divorced about 3 years ago from his wife. He is now a single father, got custody of kids by the court order. Ever since divorce, he's been tending to his 11 year old bratty son, who is, I suspect, a bit of a sociopath like his mom. Very harsh thing to say about a kid, but there are signs - nasty to animals, hits other kids and then makes up lies about it, always making mess, , one out of hundred kids that always creates trouble during school trips, etc. My friend is a wonderful father in that he completely dedicated himself to his kids and their needs. The girl, 13, is wonderful. But his son is not. 

I always make sure to tell Danny that his kids don't bother me and to bring them along. I want to make his life easier. But every time his son came along, he ruined everything, he didn't listen a word. He ruined my decliner chair because he was going up and down in it aggressively until he broke it. He ruined our movie night because every 2 minutes he wanted to go home and was whining. We picked something that kids can watch - the girl loved the film, but the boy was constantly complaining and getting attention to himself. Last evening we went out for pancakes, and while we were half way through the pancakes after some 25 min of being in the restaurant, he was already getting annoyed and started walking over to his father every minute hanging on his neck "let's go home, I'm bored, let's go home".... 

This was the first time ever that I lost my patience and told my friend "you know what, you guys should go, I'll go over to see people by that other table and will finish my meal there" (I saw my cousin and his fiancée). And they went home and I moved by the other table. 

I want to have a talk with Danny and tell him that he cannot be a good dad if he allows his son to become spoilt brat. People already hate that kid, and I mean, not just other kids but adults too. Nobody has a nice word to say about the boy. Danny should start teaching him some boundaries, and enforcing some rules, rather than being ready to jump at his every whim to please him. I know he thinks he's being a good dad, but I think he's not. He is just making things worse and harder for himself and at the same time, not getting his son ready for life. 

Should I have this conversation with him? On the one hand, it is not my place. On the other, given how many times, he's ruined my stuff and our events, it is my place. Friends are not those who always tell you what you want to hear, but those that tell you the truth. I'd choose my words, obviously. I can't tell him how to raise his kids, especially because I am not a parent myself, but I think he has no feedback from anyone and that this could be useful. 

Thoughts? 

 

 

[NuevoYorko]

Danny's parenting is none of your business, so no, don't have that conversation.  What you can do is ask if Danny is free to do whatever with you, and without kids.  Believe me, people with kids do not automatically expect that their children are welcome and expected in all social get togethers.   I realize that for you there may be some awkwardness because you've always welcomed the kids. WHY?  You were very dishonest in doing that, since you have nothing but awful things to say about this boy.  Anyway, you broke the ice dramatically at the pancake place, so just say something not very judgey about how you are too tired for the kid's energy, and go out with Danny when he can leave the kids at home.  They are 13 and 11.  Plenty old enough to spend a while on their own.

[basil67]

Rule #1 Don't give parenting advice unless it's asked for

However, you are free to state that you are very sorry, but you cannot do X activities because the child's behaviour isn't appropriate and makes you feel very uncomfortable.  Or he can't come to your house because he wrecked the furniture  And by all means, if the kid ruins your furniture, put it back on the family to cover the damages. 

A little bit more thought just for the hell of it: I'm writing from the perspective of a parent who has one child who ticks all the boxes for good behaviour and one who has a diagnosis and accompanying behavioural issues when he was younger.  

When kids have significant behavioural issues, normal parenting doesn't necessarily work and professional help will be required.  When our lad was younger, we had a child psychologist helping us.... and read so many books about parenting kids with his diagnosis.  The usual boundaries were needed, but there was a whole lot of extra knowledge required, such as understanding that his meltdowns often stemmed from confusion or being overwhelmed rather than naughtiness.   In the end, a combination of understanding my son's needs and medication are both required to help him manage.  

If you're right that this child shows signs of sociopathy (or some other dx), he needs a paediatrician and a child psycholgist to help your friend through this.   Though of course, you can't tell him this.  Better to lead with questions:  Such as how is your lad doing at school?  If he opens up, you could enquire about what the paediatrican says.   Discreetly plant seeds which could help.  

Edited October 15, 2022 by basil67

[ShyViolet]

It is not your place to give your friend unsolicited parenting advice.  So no, you shouldn't do that.

However, you absolutely should speak up about issues in terms of how this affects you.  If I had a friend with a kid like this, there's no question that this kid would not be allowed in my house.  So if that comes up, you should tell your friend that you do not feel comfortable having his son in your house, due to his behavior.  And be firm about it.  If your friend takes offense to that, then oh well.  You are also 100% within your rights to say that you don't feel comfortable going places with his son anymore, due to his problematic behavior.  Your friend can do whatever he wants with that information.  He can either make plans with you without the kids, or he can reevaluate his parenting.  

But you shouldn't directly tell your friend how to parent his kid.  He needs to figure that out for himself... unless he actually asks for your advice on the subject.

[Wiseman2]

8 hours ago, Stret said:

I always make sure to tell Danny that his kids don't bother me and to bring them along.

If you're just acquaintances, don't bring kids along. You're actually not ok with it because in your opinion, his son misbehaves in your home. Get together when he doesn't have the children with him.

[rando1234]

I would be alarmed at some of the kid's activities too, but that is still not your place to say or worry about. If it's annoying and not for you, all you really have to do is stop responding to their messages. You don't have to be rude or make assumptions. If the kid turns out psycho, yay you were right. If the child is not really psycho, you might not really know what is going on or what struggles they have. In any case, you dont have to keep ties to people you don't like very much. 

 

 

[Stret]

Thanks for the replies.

On the basis of what everyone said, I might not have the conversation where I tell him what I think, but I will definitely ask him about how is he managing and what has he tried so far with the boy. Maybe he gets the hint. I don't think Danny is the kind of person who would take it against me even if I told him, but good to know the perspectives of parents. From what I see, he is doing nothing and that is the part of the problem. Danny is babying this kid to make up for the fact that their mother was not too motherly. So he went in the other extreme, which is not good either. Danny is definitely aware of the issue with the boy.

Me telling him, a friend I knew my whole life, to bring kids with him is to make his life easier so that he can still have some social life even with kids, because he has nowhere to leave them, and also because year after year I was hoping that the boy will grow out of it - he hasn't. It is not because "I was dishonest". I was merely trying to be there and keep up the friendship. Yes, I have nothing but awful things to say about the kid, but nobody really does. Anyone who knows him has dumped Danny long ago and his life is now confined to the work and stuff he can do with kids. I actually stuck around and decided to take some of it - but that night, my patience betrayed me.

He cannot meet me alone because he has nowhere to leave the kids. He cannot leave them at home because the boy can do something stupid. 

 

[salparadise]

17 minutes ago, Stret said:

but I will definitely ask him about how is he managing and what has he tried so far with the boy. Maybe he gets the hint.

Don't ask questions that include this assumption. Just ask how he's doing with his parenting role and perhaps empathize with the fact that it must be challenging. Then he can go into it or not... but let him open that door himself.

If the child literally is sociopathic (and if his mom is, there is a good chance), then it's not like your friend can simply do some tough love and teach him not to be. It's going to be a tough life for both of them. The best you can do is be a good friend, a good listener (empathetic), and perhaps help him find resources if he needs your help. Stay away from advising directly. Behavioral issues are hard even for those who are trained, so best to stay in your lane, so to speak. 

[Stret]

53 minutes ago, salparadise said:

Don't ask questions that include this assumption. Just ask how he's doing with his parenting role and perhaps empathize with the fact that it must be challenging. Then he can go into it or not... but let him open that door himself.

If the child literally is sociopathic (and if his mom is, there is a good chance), then it's not like your friend can simply do some tough love and teach him not to be. It's going to be a tough life for both of them. The best you can do is be a good friend, a good listener (empathetic), and perhaps help him find resources if he needs your help. Stay away from advising directly. Behavioral issues are hard even for those who are trained, so best to stay in your lane, so to speak. 

All true. I think he could use someone to talk to. I was a good friend all these years and put up with his son just for the sake of our contact and of him having someone that can accept his kids. But the boy is 11 now, and it is clear to me he's not going to just change one day. His daughter is different and always has been. She is able to talk to us about whatever (school, etc) and even join our conversations. No issue with her whatsoever.  Silver lining: few more years and hopefully he'll have some interests that don't involve dad. Hopefully, in 5 years, the girl will be at the university and the boy will be 15 and starting to go out, date, have some friends, etc. 

 

[NuevoYorko]

It's nice that you care about Danny, but this is sounding pretty co-dependent.  The guy is in his mid 40's and if he can't spend any time at all socially without his children, this is a l life choice that he has made.  All you need to do is to decide whether to hang out with him and the 2 kids or not.  Or, invite him to do something, but tell him that his kids are not invited.   How to deal with that is up to him.

If you want to be an especially good friend,  I guess the best thing you can do is to suffer through some kind of activity where the kid's behavior can be tolerated, once a month or so.   Or do stuff when the kids are at school.  

If he wants to do adult activities with friends, it's up to him to find an alternative situation for his kids.  That's what all of us who have had children have had to do, when we wanted kid-free time; even if our children behaved well.  Kids with special needs require a lot more time and attention from the parents, and this is where Danny is at during this phase of his life.

Edited October 16, 2022 by NuevoYorko

[Wiseman2]

20 hours ago, Stret said:

He's divorced about 3 years ago from his wife. He is now a single father, got custody of kids by the court order. Ever since divorce, he's been tending to his 11 year old bratty son, who is, I suspect, a bit of a sociopath like his mom.

Unfortunately it would be best to step away from babysitting or inviting your friend with his children. They have a mother, extended family on both sides as well as family and their own friends. Your friend needs to make better childcare arrangements, it's really that simple. As far as concerns for the child's emotional and/or physical health, your friend as well needs to take the child to the appropriate clinicians for an evaluation.

[rando1234]

4 hours ago, Stret said:

Thanks for the replies.

On the basis of what everyone said, I might not have the conversation where I tell him what I think, but I will definitely ask him about how is he managing and what has he tried so far with the boy. Maybe he gets the hint. I don't think Danny is the kind of person who would take it against me even if I told him, but good to know the perspectives of parents. From what I see, he is doing nothing and that is the part of the problem. Danny is babying this kid to make up for the fact that their mother was not too motherly. So he went in the other extreme, which is not good either. Danny is definitely aware of the issue with the boy.

Me telling him, a friend I knew my whole life, to bring kids with him is to make his life easier so that he can still have some social life even with kids, because he has nowhere to leave them, and also because year after year I was hoping that the boy will grow out of it - he hasn't. It is not because "I was dishonest". I was merely trying to be there and keep up the friendship. Yes, I have nothing but awful things to say about the kid, but nobody really does. Anyone who knows him has dumped Danny long ago and his life is now confined to the work and stuff he can do with kids. I actually stuck around and decided to take some of it - but that night, my patience betrayed me.

He cannot meet me alone because he has nowhere to leave the kids. He cannot leave them at home because the boy can do something stupid. 

 

People take it very personally when you to to intervene with their children. There might be a reason for the behavior you know nothing about and that they don't mention within certain circles of friends. If he's recently divorced the kid might just want to spend time with their parent alone or have some needs that they feel are not being considered. The mother might also be contributing to the behavior and its something that he has no control over. Divorces can be stressful for both children and adults and sometimes parents don't really get along or do what's best for the children because of hurt feelings. It's a really personal thing this person may not want to talk about with people other than family. Another idea was mentioned above about just having a no kids time if it becomes such a problem. You're friend may also be feeling alone if their friends abandon them because their children are reacting to changed circumstances (which is natural for them to do, especially if it's been a major change)

[basil67]

6 hours ago, Stret said:

She is able to talk to us about whatever (school, etc) and even join our conversations. No issue with her whatsoever.  Silver lining: few more years and hopefully he'll have some interests that don't involve dad. Hopefully, in 5 years, the girl will be at the university and the boy will be 15 and starting to go out, date, have some friends, etc. 

The fact that his daughter has great behaviour indicates that the father's basic parenting instincts really are OK.  Instead, the problem is that he's not skilled up in what we call 'extreme parenting'.   If what you say about the son is correct, in 5 years the father will be out combing the streets at all hours looking for his boy.  

He needs professional help

Edited October 16, 2022 by basil67