Marriage Cheating

[Welldone1]

 Seeking different thoughts and responses for what its worth. There is much debate to what cheating is today and how it takes place.Personally no one owns any one and I hope I never insinuate that in any way. The argument or debate is what is considered cheating in marriages.

It seems now days some consider texting, trading words and or photos with others is cheating. Some say its only when sexual contact occurs with another or others may say it is actual cheating for sake of words. It seems meeting another in secrecy without the others knowledge constitutes cheating rather it be, meeting in person, exchanging photos personally,secret relationships, secret conversations concerning or leading up to sexual motives is in fact cheating on the other.

My assessment may not be the same as others, but one would assume or think any actions with another with the partners knowledge would not constitute cheating in what ever way contacts were made.Most certainly not cheating with the others knowledge or permission.

Common sense would dictate cheating is the act of hidden relationship,secret relationships with denial of such would most certainly confirm actions were made so the other partner could not discover, judge,reject,or have knowledge of to avoid unwanted feelings of what the other has done! It is confirmation of wrong doing to the other. Its verification of motive to hide it from the other.

What is your thoughts?

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, Welldone1 said:

Common sense would dictate

I agree that the things you mention are important components. That said, "common sense" is by no means universal - look at e.g. what "common sense" dictates women are/aren't allowed to do in certain cultures (and in the same culture at different points in time e.g. the puritans in early America).

So, it ultimately becomes a matter of opinion. (And opinions can vary pretty widely.)

I think the spouse's opinion holds quite a bit of weight on this. It is only their "boundaries" that have been stepped across, not someone else's. For example, if a man feels his wife flirting seductively with other men for "sexual thrills" isn't cheating unless something physical occurred - well, what does it really matter what the pastor or local busybodies think.

Conversely if a woman feels that commenting things like "you're so hot" on an attractive woman's Instagram is "cheating" even though absolutely nothing else occurred, well she is the one who feels hurt, betrayed etc.

The flip side of all that is that "boundaries" that aren't somewhat reasonable are likely to be broken - if someone feels that work related conversation with a co-worker or chatting with anyone of the opposite sex constitutes "cheating", they're probably headed for frequent disappointments unless their spouse is happy to have neither job nor a social life.

Edited October 13, 2022 by mark clemson

[Walter Kronite]

On 10/13/2022 at 3:25 PM, Welldone1 said:

 Seeking different thoughts and responses for what its worth. There is much debate to what cheating is today and how it takes place.Personally no one owns any one and I hope I never insinuate that in any way. The argument or debate is what is considered cheating in marriages.

It seems now days some consider texting, trading words and or photos with others is cheating. Some say its only when sexual contact occurs with another or others may say it is actual cheating for sake of words. It seems meeting another in secrecy without the others knowledge constitutes cheating rather it be, meeting in person, exchanging photos personally,secret relationships, secret conversations concerning or leading up to sexual motives is in fact cheating on the other.

My assessment may not be the same as others, but one would assume or think any actions with another with the partners knowledge would not constitute cheating in what ever way contacts were made.Most certainly not cheating with the others knowledge or permission.

Common sense would dictate cheating is the act of hidden relationship,secret relationships with denial of such would most certainly confirm actions were made so the other partner could not discover, judge,reject,or have knowledge of to avoid unwanted feelings of what the other has done! It is confirmation of wrong doing to the other. Its verification of motive to hide it from the other.

What is your thoughts?

Usually people say what they want about everything. I think it is never cheating. The idea is to compell honesty and trust. To pursue cheating, for real, is to condemn. Thus, it is an infraction only if the marriage fails otherwise. Work it out.

[Welldone1]

Very good points, If one dates another in secrecy outside of Marriage with another is that actually Cheating if sexual contact is known to have taken place? If one on the other hand actually makes sexual passes or touches the others private body parts with out sexual gratifications with no other sexual acts is that cheating? If one on the other hand makes sexual contacts with photos or suggested sexual acts but never in person or physically contact is made is that Cheating? Can you see where I'm going with this? Last but not least all of the above examples had no actual intercourse or what you would call a martial affair in my opinion. Is that in today's world still considered cheating? If none of the above is not cheating why would one hide it from the other or do in secrecy? Is it grounds for a breakup of marriage or divorce of two people so to speak?  So very confusing. I would feel social contact would not be cheating or even perhaps meeting another for a date or outing would not be cheating outside the marriage, unless its done in secrecy seems to change the entire course of the meanings of cheating an other. Of course its just opinions but marriage vows still are binding and would matter more so than opinions I suppose?

[glows]

If you are not able to talk about it with your partner or feel it won’t be acceptable, it’s considered infidelity. 

Let’s not relegate this to the joining of flesh or emotional cheating as this is a narrow view. There are plenty of ways manipulate and cheat a situation whether involving financial infidelity (hiding information, misuse and abuse of trust) and so on. The list is endless. Where do you want to stop because the scene is unending once on that slippery slope. 

If you can’t speak about it openly and it’s NOT agreed on by both parties, it’s cheating/manipulation.

Edited October 16, 2022 by glows

[mark clemson]

On 10/16/2022 at 9:32 AM, Welldone1 said:

 Is that in today's world still considered cheating? If none of the above is not cheating why would one hide it from the other or do in secrecy? Is it grounds for a breakup of marriage or divorce of two people so to speak?  So very confusing.

It's only confusing if one's looking for consensus. There is no consensus.

I'm not sure even keeping a secret is necessarily a universal. If someone in a strict religious household wanted to explore a different religion, but their partner forbids them - would that be cheating/manipulation? The partner might well decide to divorce them if they converted. So, then are they "not allowed" to explore it. They are doing something "within their rights" but unethically from their partner's perspective. But not necessarily from an outside one. Is it the rule that "you can't do that" that is unethical?

Similarly for someone married who after many years, finally decides to explore their lifelong dream of moving to Alaska to become an ice fisherman (or whatever it may be). They look into the feasibility of this and then eventually announce to their partner their intention. They "cheated"/manipulated as well. But it's something they're "allowed" to do. Perhaps they should have told their partner about their plan, but quite realistically feared they would be "talked out of it," barriers to their plan would be put into place, etc. But of course their partner feel "betrayed" and that their life is upended (which it well may be) etc.

Infidelity, of course, refers to romantic/sexual "explorations" but the principle is the same. It's unethical certainly from the partner's perspective (and that should count for a lot in terms of how they are received, since they are the ones who get hurt the most). However, from an outside perspective not everyone agrees that even a spouse has an actual right to stop one from doing what one wants. Particularly in cultures with arranged marriages or cultural views on male behavior or on "sexual freedom". And not every spouse in such an arrangement wants to hear about what the other person is doing.

As one example, in medieval Europe (of all cultural milieus) kings were often expected to have multiple mistresses. There was some odd cultural concept of "national virility" at play in this, apparently. (Of note, the king was also expected to renounce the mistress(es) on his deathbed for religious reasons.) But what do you think often happened when the queen (who knew all about this in principle) got wind of a specific mistress? Of course trouble then started brewing right away.

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by mark clemson

[Welldone1]

Very complex subject from many different views. Religion plays a big part it seems in all cultures and customs.In addition expelling religions out of the circuit there comes the subject of Promises, Words such as a Contract among two people or as in days gone by Ones "Word". Does time play a role as well as age in the same mix?

Example: Married Partners where one goes out on a date very early with the first 6 months of Marriage and conceals from the other. When the other gets wind or word the other partner was out on a date, there by asks or request verification of words or wind of the acts took place from the other. The other   let us say denies such an act ever took place. When in fact it did take place and is later revealed the Partner did go out on a date but only one time and sexual contacts were  never made. Is the other partner at this time expected to honor the "Word" that sexual contact took place or not? Being satisfied no Infidelity took place even with acts of betrayal and denial being committed regardless of sexual contacts? Was "trust" or "word " breached still constitute the meaning of "Cheating" since denial, betrayal took place in the fore front?

Example Two: What if the same scenario takes place say many years later in to the Marriage and is later discovered by the other in the exact same manner. Does this change any course of the actions that were done or is the same terms and words validated the same as Example one? Will the fact of long ago time passing change things? Would any of the same be different if it was the male doing the act or the Female doing the act or does it matter?

 Example Three:  The exact same thing takes place as the above examples  with the scenarios being  both with no actual religion preferences other than Western Culture of Marriage vows.Would the out come of Trust, Denial, Infidelity be the same if both partners were in fact aware of such acts before and after the dating took place would the out come be the same or would all things change regardless of Marriage commitments? Would it still be betrayal, denial and "Cheating"?

So much is very confusing in three simple examples above with out Culture inputs, Religion Inputs and honor of words and each person before any legal aspects.  

[poppyfields]

I don't think the subject is complex at all regardless of culture or religion.

In the context of a relationship or marriage, cheating is deception.   It's the breaking of a promise or vow to remain faithful without their partner's knowledge or consent. 

It's the "without their partner's knowledge or consent" that constitutes cheating.  It's a deception.

If one or both choose to have sex outside the relationship or marriage with the other's full knowledge and consent as in an open relationship/marriage, that does not constitute cheating.

I think the confusion is because most people believe one if one is having sex with a person other than their significant other or spouse, then it's automatically considered cheating/infidelity.

However they're not allowing for the fact that in some cases, as in an open relationship/marriage, both parties consent and agree to this type of lifestyle so even though they broke their promise or vow to remain faithful, it's NOT cheating because there is no deception, it's all out in the open.

With respect to exchanging sexually explicit text messages and pics, again if done behind their partner's back without their knowledge and consent, it's cheating.

I dunno, maybe it's me, but I don't really see how it's all that complicated or complex.  

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by poppyfields

[mark clemson]

To address your example "scenarios," it seems the answer tends to be -  it depends/it's a matter of opinion.

Example 1 - a date definitely occurred, deception definitely occurred. Was that date "infidelity" if all that happened was two people went to dinner and talked? Some would say yes, some would say no. It wasn't different in outcome from a case where e.g. a controlling spouse forbids someone from seeing certain (fully platonic) friends or relatives, but the person visits/spends time them anyhow. There was presumably a difference in intent, which would mean a lot to some folks, but since nothing ultimately came of it, there will be people who see it both ways.

Example 2 - the passage of time might/might not make a difference, so again could go either way. From what I've read on this site, people tend to be upset regardless of the time passed, and it might even make it worse for some of them. But not always. The passage of time doesn't change the facts/what occurred, but it could change the reaction.

Same with the male/female thing - some people will brush off cheating by one gender as "human nature" (and I believe that's sometimes a cultural thing) but still come down quite hard on the other gender. Others will be more even handed.

Example 3 - I think this would depend on how important the vows are to the person, and for some, which vows were actually stated. Some people place value on the emotional commitment, rather than the words spoken, and so indications of substantive emotional interest in another are enough to constitute "infidelity". Others may see marriage as primarily a financial arrangement, and simply not really care what their spouse does.

[Wiseman2]

A Supreme Court Justice once said (with regard to porn): "I know it when I see it". It's really that simple.

[Welldone1]

Poppy and Mark,

Mark, it is very confusing to me from both legal and morale aspects to much degree. Simple up front, but in terms of trust, faith,betrayal, breaking of expectations is very confusing to me. The examples I left are to share the confusion some what.

Example one as in dating or going out with another after early marriage, lets say the the one who went was female young age of say 18 to 20 Years old with looks and build to die for and the one who took her out knows her fairly well lets say as it usually always is he was best man say at their wedding day. Now deception most certainly occurred. Would we say Infidelity did? Would we say cheating occurred ? Especially if denied then later admitted to. Why would one deny a mere date if no sexual acts took place? Or was it simply none of the above? If the same occurred in public with no denials, no sexual contacts no secrets took place would still be none of the above?

Example two lets the same above took place but was only many years passing by before discovery found by the other and lets change it a bit to the male partner was the other who went out on the meet, date, dinner,bar etc. Would there be any difference? Such as many saying Oh! that was so very long ago just ignore it? Or long ago time passage should have or not have any effects?

 

Number three example  we leave the same at this point.....

Are opinions the same not confusing at all? Did Cheating Occur? Did Infidelity occur? Is what they commited accepted by the Average Marriage in America? How do you classify what took place?

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, Welldone1 said:

Are opinions the same not confusing at all? Did Cheating Occur? Did Infidelity occur? Is what they commited accepted by the Average Marriage in America? How do you classify what took place?

Right - opinions won't be the same. Different people are going to "classify" differently, depending on how they see things.

I'm not sure about the average marriage - it's sometimes hard to say what the majority of folks would think. We tend to think the majority of folks "think as we do" in life, but that's often not the case.

I'm not sure what's driving your line of questioning, but rather than looking for some sort of consensus view (particularly for ambiguous cases), what does it mean to you/how do you classify it (or possibly our spouse). Since there is no unanimity for many of these questionable cases, it becomes your opinion that counts (for you).

[Welldone1]

On 10/20/2022 at 8:40 PM, mark clemson said:

Right - opinions won't be the same. Different people are going to "classify" differently, depending on how they see things.

I'm not sure about the average marriage - it's sometimes hard to say what the majority of folks would think. We tend to think the majority of folks "think as we do" in life, but that's often not the case.

I'm not sure what's driving your line of questioning, but rather than looking for some sort of consensus view (particularly for ambiguous cases), what does it mean to you/how do you classify it (or possibly our spouse). Since there is no unanimity for many of these questionable cases, it becomes your opinion that counts (for you).

Yes I agree with your opinion for sure. But many marriages are determined to come to a close based on those examples when its hard to classify what one or any of the two out of the three are legitimate so to speak if you follow me. Why can legal matters, divorces be carried out upon those grounds when in fact all have different opinions of what happened? Can we say in the first two the Spouse was out of line in marriage vows and has grounds for separations and divorce? If we say yes! That is my whole point of this all! It is very unfair, inaccurate and confusing as to what constitutes the big words Cheating and Infidelity.

[basil67]

@Welldone1 You're not thinking the concept of divorce due to infidelity through.  In places which have no fault divorce, one can choose to leave for a good reason, a bad reason or no reason at all.  How they perceive cheating is legally irrelevant.   Or, if a country's laws need to show wrongdoing on the part of one partner, they'd have to prove cheating by whatever form that court decrees.  

Edited October 23, 2022 by basil67

[mark clemson]

Right, in areas where you need to justify a divorce (more than just stating "irreconcilable differences") to get one, there will presumably be a base legal definition of "infidelity". The definition is going to vary a lot by jurisdiction, just as many legal definitions do. It may also get modified over time, e.g. by case law/judicial rulings, depending on how the definition was set and how the legal system in that jurisdiction works.

So yes, in that sense (also) there are a lot of different, similar but not the same, definitions. A quick internet search will show e.g. that some jurisdictions specify that coitus must occur for it to be "infidelity" and so things like emotional affairs (and probably in some cases oral or other non-PIV sex also) "don't count".

This is really not any different from other legal terms where a local (jurisdictional) definition will be set.

[Welldone1]

On 10/23/2022 at 4:48 PM, mark clemson said:

Right, in areas where you need to justify a divorce (more than just stating "irreconcilable differences") to get one, there will presumably be a base legal definition of "infidelity". The definition is going to vary a lot by jurisdiction, just as many legal definitions do. It may also get modified over time, e.g. by case law/judicial rulings, depending on how the definition was set and how the legal system in that jurisdiction works.

So yes, in that sense (also) there are a lot of different, similar but not the same, definitions. A quick internet search will show e.g. that some jurisdictions specify that coitus must occur for it to be "infidelity" and so things like emotional affairs (and probably in some cases oral or other non-PIV sex also) "don't count".

This is really not any different from other legal terms where a local (jurisdictional) definition will be set.

So in all reality and with all confusion of things.... Marriage vows means nothing unless one is tied to religion or actually engaged in sexual acts such as intercourse to be considered cheating or infidelity. Lies, trust, betrayal,intentions of malice means nothing.

[Welldone1]

On 10/23/2022 at 4:47 PM, basil67 said:

@Welldone1 You're not thinking the concept of divorce due to infidelity through.  In places which have no fault divorce, one can choose to leave for a good reason, a bad reason or no reason at all.  How they perceive cheating is legally irrelevant.   Or, if a country's laws need to show wrongdoing on the part of one partner, they'd have to prove cheating by whatever form that court decrees.  

Yes I agree, but I was actually referring to cheating and infidelities as being confusing in marriage as to what it actually is in accordance with legal divorces or separations as being the causes or subject matters.

[mark clemson]

Sure. Personal definitions of "infidelity" are going to be quite varied. The local legal definition will be whatever it is, and might not align e.g. to a spouse's definition of "emotional cheating" or whatever other personal definitions they might have.

Of course, in some places divorces are essentially at will by citing "irreconcilable differences" or similar language. So in a place like that, your spouse's definition will matter a lot, since if they feel your "emotional cheating" (or whatever else) was a sufficient betrayal they can always divorce you over it.

[basil67]

4 hours ago, Welldone1 said:

Yes I agree, but I was actually referring to cheating and infidelities as being confusing in marriage as to what it actually is in accordance with legal divorces or separations as being the causes or subject matters.

It doesn't matter.  Each person has their own boundaries and can leave a relationship for whatever reason.  The fact that you or I or the spouse may not agree with those boundaries is neither here nor there.

Edited October 25, 2022 by basil67

[Lotsgoingon]

Well I had a super insecure ex, and I did not tell her about every woman I had lunch with--even though these were all Platonic meetings. 

Cheating to me is sexual intercourse with another. Now, actions leading up to intercourse can be on the road to cheating--can be quite troubling. But the point of no return--the point where trust is totally shattered is sexual intercourse--and I'll include oral sex in that mix. 

[BootsAndJeans]

I think for me there are two definite categories that I would consider to be cheating or infidelity.

1. Physical infidelity - sexual acts of any kind with someone not your spouse.
2. Emotional infidelity - this has become huge, in the last few decades. More women are in the work place and there is a lot more interactions between people of opposite genders. There are women I work with, where on average, I spend more time with than with my wife. The other issue I think is social media. People become close talking with others and invested in their lives over social media. For me, the only person I should be emotionally invested in, in a romantic sense, is my wife.

Spouses in a healthy marriage should be invested in each other, in terms of spending time together, open communication, intimacy (sexual and non-sexual) and in meeting each other's needs.

[Welldone1]

It is most certainly different in many cases today but actually social existed years ago as well. I had a female when I was younger who would write me mail at my work and address to me "Personal & Confidential" she would write wanting to meet me so many times. Sent me some very nice photos of her. She was married and knew I was. (we went back to school sweet hearts and dated she got married). I ignored her for many years and she finally stopped writing me. She passed away just a few years ago with cancer and she was divorced along the way for some years before she was ill.

So Yes I could have went out with her like my wife did me but I refused to. Then she would call me at work ask to meet me for non-sexual lunch dates many times . I told her sorry but I could not. Its all about choice. She was a looker too hard to turn her down,but I knew where lunch would go. I think any dates ,meets, drinks, smoking doobies, when being picked up by the other and the other picking up as well doing the same in secret is most certainly for sex and if the other agrees to go by being picked up they know its for sex especially if they get high in doing so, it is very purpose they are meeting and sneaking out with each other, especially very young teenagers just married with one single! Why else would they hide and then deny it?

Social media with participation of both persons doing exchanges having hot conversations and maybe photos in secret who are married is for sure infidelity too but in a different form with same effects and if goes on long enough will be physical as well all in my opinion. I think meeting times are far less when they meet if older they both know what they want from all the social meetings and meet have their hot time and over with very quickly making hard to be discovered by their spouses or partners in the current times where older days took much time and planning.

[pepperbird2]

On 10/19/2022 at 2:44 PM, Wiseman2 said:

A Supreme Court Justice once said (with regard to porn): "I know it when I see it". It's really that simple.

Exactly.

 In my experience, people who try to define these things are usually doing so because they want to rationalize their actions.