What do I do from here?

[KD4life]

32M and my wife 33F. 2 kids. Married for 10 years

So my wife just got bought a new car a month ago and has gotten a little to friendly with the salesman. She ordered it and has been chatting with the saleman over text for a couple months now. She started talking about him all the time. So much so that I started calling him her boyfriend when she brought him up. Her car finally came in and she said she wanted to get him a cake for giving us should a good deal and I told her that was ridiculous because the dude was getting commission and that was just nonsense. She said okay and I thought that was that. I didn't go with her to pick it up and I just assumed she dropped the ridiculous idea. 

I NEVER go through her phone like ever but I just had a feeling the other day. She goes through mine like a hawk but I decided to grab her phone and the first thing I saw was a message of him thanking her for the cookies. I continue reading and theyve been texting a lot AND this was after she bought the car so I freak out on her. Some car stuff and some personal stuff. She continues to say shes hasnt done anything wrong but I ask why she bought him cookies and she said it was for her car. I get on facebook and notice this guy had a birthday on the day she sent him cookies. She said it was for her car yet she bought her car almost two weeks before his birthday. When she picked up her car she made a comment about how the salesman was looking for a woman in her 30s from the town we live in...... we live an hour from the dealership. I told her shes crossed a line and she continued to say she hasn't done anything wrong.

Fast forward 5 days of me sleeping on the couch because I am so mad at her and literally only a handful of words between us I tell her I am starting to think she isn't going to apologize. She says that I know she isn't good with apologies. I tell her she crossed a line and she said the cookies were for her car. I said why did you send them nearly two weeks after you got your car then? The date of his thank you text was also the date me and her spent the entire day together on a date. I realized this after the first initial argument and I ask her if she ran off to the bathroom to send him cookies and she said she didn't know when she sent them. She continues to say she hasn't done anything wrong. At the end of the argument she asked if I was going to apologize for physically abusing her... when I had her phone she was trying to get it back and I kept her from it with my left arm while I was still trying to read it with my right hand. She only reason I stopped is because she started screaming and then my daughter walked in the room so I gave her back her phone so now shes calling me a physical abuser. Just nonsense.

Back to the car salesman. We have had a great month or so.... maybe the best our marriage has been but why? Why has she been in such a good mood lately? Was it because of the saleman? Does she have a crush on him or is it something more? She strangely hasn't mentioned him at all since she bought her car but yet theyve still been texting each other. I asked her how she would feel if I did this to a woman and sent her cookies on her birthday.. no response. Shes had a dozen new cars over the last decade so I ask who else has she sent cookies to? No response.

I told her she crossed a line and this was an inappropriate relationship and her only response was she wasn't going to argue about it. I told her there's nothing to argue about and again she just has no response. She also used her personal credit card to send the cookies so I wouldn't see. She said she told me about the cake and this is true.... She told me she wanted to get him a cake and I told her this was idiotic but she never said a word about any damn cookies and especially didn't on the day he sent her a thank you text for them when we were together all day.

I don't know what to do. She lies nonstop and will never admit shes wrong. I dont think shes cheated on me but there's definitely something going on. No idea if shes still talking to him or not because she won't let me on her phone.

TL/DR

Wife has been talking to a car salesman for months and continues to do so after she bought the car and also sent him cookies on his birthday. Any advice?

[Will am I]

23 minutes ago, KD4life said:

I NEVER go through her phone like ever but I just had a feeling the other day. She goes through mine like a hawk but I decided to grab her phone and the first thing I saw was a message of him thanking her for the cookies

In my country we have a proverb which translates to  english like "as the innkeeper is, so he trusts his guests". Meaning that people expect from others the same behaviours that they have a tendency to themselves.

It's ironic but it not the first time I've heard something along these lines. How women who are very distrusting of their spouses would be the ones to slip into infidelity.

 

Adding up the facts: she's chatting with the car salesman a lot and apparently she derives joy from the chatting. There is a sense of intimacy, to the point of jokingly calling him "her boyfriend". She's giving him attention beyond appropriate for the contact (customer/salesman) and against her husband's will. 

It sounds to me like she's flirting and maybe even in an affair. I don't think they're necessarly sleeping together, but there seems to be something like an emotional affair going on. 

 

I cannot put my finger on why she gets so defensive when confronted.

Either it's because she's not sleeping with him, and she thinks it only counts as an affair if it's physical. So she's innocent in her own perception. But it doesn't really add up. So many people. women in particular, find emotional infidelity from their spouse even worse worse than physical infidelity. I wonder if she'd be OK if her husband would make long private phone calls with a girl from the office.

Which leaves the darker alternative: she's being defensive because she tthinks attack is the best defense. In which case her defensiveness is actually a sign that there is more going on.

 

 

[glows]

Just drop it with the cookies already. Your marriage is on the rocks if you’re feeling threatened by this. The way you took her phone and seized it appears maniacal and controlling. It’s ok to feel overwhelmed, scared and disappointed about someone’s behaviour but acting out in it like that and taking someone’s personal property or preventing her from having her phone until your daughter comes into the room is completely juvenile. 

My suggestion is to cool it with the car salesman and figure out whether you want to be with your wife. Stop taking her things. She hasn’t been defensive and she’s only stated she’s not doing anything wrong. 

If she doesn’t care about how you feel it may be because she’s checked out and fed up of the way you treat her. Have there been other issues in your marriage? 

[giotto]

She has no respect for you, unfortunately. Tell her to break all contacts with the salesman, otherwise there will be consequences. But be prepared to go through with it.

[KD4life]

17 minutes ago, glows said:

Just drop it with the cookies already. Your marriage is on the rocks if you’re feeling threatened by this. The way you took her phone and seized it appears maniacal and controlling. It’s ok to feel overwhelmed, scared and disappointed about someone’s behaviour but acting out in it like that and taking someone’s personal property or preventing her from having her phone until your daughter comes into the room is completely juvenile. 

My suggestion is to cool it with the car salesman and figure out whether you want to be with your wife. Stop taking her things. She hasn’t been defensive and she’s only stated she’s not doing anything wrong. 

If she doesn’t care about how you feel it may be because she’s checked out and fed up of the way you treat her. Have there been other issues in your marriage? 

She saw me on her phone and freaked out. What would you have liked me to do? Quit reading when I found something between her and another man? I didn't confiscate her phone. I saw her talking to someone when she didn't have a need at all to do so and wanted to keep reading when she started screaming for me to give her phone back.

[glows]

Just now, KD4life said:

She saw me on her phone and freaked out. What would you have liked me to do? Quit reading when I found something between her and another man? I didn't confiscate her phone. I saw her talking to someone when she didn't have a need at all to do so and wanted to keep reading when she started screaming for me to give her phone back.

Reassess your marriage without resorting to behaviour like this. It escalates the issue without resolving anything. You need to decide whether you want to stay married. Decide on your own terms.

[KD4life]

Just now, glows said:

Reassess your marriage without resorting to behaviour like this. It escalates the issue without resolving anything. You need to decide whether you want to stay married. Decide on your own terms.

I saw my wife texting another man..... the same one she continued to talk about nonstop just weeks before this..... and somehow I am in the wrong for reading it? She walked into the kitchen and saw I was on her phone and she immediately lost it. I didn't escalate anything. Shes the one that saw me on her phone and went nuts trying to get it back and of course I didn't want to.

[glows]

Just now, KD4life said:

I saw my wife texting another man..... the same one she continued to talk about nonstop just weeks before this..... and somehow I am in the wrong for reading it? She walked into the kitchen and saw I was on her phone and she immediately lost it. I didn't escalate anything. Shes the one that saw me on her phone and went nuts trying to get it back and of course I didn't want to.

When you feel the need to go through your spouse’s phone something is already seriously off in your marriage. You don’t trust her. Explore that and figure out ways to rebuild that trust if possible or if you both want to stay together. 

I understand you’re angry but anger rarely gets a person anywhere. It immobilizes actually and prevents any moving forward. Do you feel like your wife has checked out in other areas of your marriage? Why do you continue to stay?

[Will am I]

One could argue, if you need to go through your spouse's personal items then your marriage is not in the state how it should be.

I think OP's wife is showing inappropriate behaviour. I think that OP is right to suspect some level of infidelity.

I see three possible responses:

1. (the impulsive response) take that phone and search it for signs which either confirm or appease that suspicion

2. (the lack of response) let it be, see if she changes her behaviour and if she opens up about it on her own

3. (the moral highground) demand that she be transparent about what she is doing but refuse to go through the phone without her consent

 

Given OP's wife's defensive reactions so far, I think neither option 2 or 3 would have given hime anything. With option 3 you can escalate and say that this is a deal breaker. You can further escalate and add an ultimatum. It can ultimately blow up into a situation where OP needs to file for divorce without having any proof of infidelity from his wife, only her lack of transparency. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Will am I

[giotto]

OP,  your wife is having some kind of emotional affair. What are you going to do about it?

[vla1120]

Honestly, neither of you is handling this situation properly. Have you read Gottman's The Four Horsemen? Read about it here.... (Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness and Stonewalling)

You shouldn't be sleeping on the sofa. Neither of you should be checking the other's phone. It sounds like you accuse her and she gets defensive and stonewalls, which gets you nowhere. The two of you need to learn to communicate in a more healthy manner. It's time for BOTH of you to do a little work on your marriage.

 

[Alpacalia]

Would she have sent the cookies on behalf of both of you?

It would be nice if there was a way to see if she sent just from her or if she sent it from both of you.

[glows]

It's a combined effort if you want to work on your marriage, OP. She feels she hasn't done anything wrong. Address any issues that are underlying in the marriage. I most certainly guarantee there are resentments there or issues. Your daughter is also witnessing the arguments between the two of you. Try to keep any marital issues away from her. You can continue being a good father to your daughter and work on your marriage if you wish. 

[mark clemson]

It sounds like she and the salesman were essentially flirting - his job is to sell you a car - at that point the "relationship" should end.

Her willingness to continue texting and to bring him cookies for his birthday  shows she was trying to turn whatever this was into at least a friendship, and possibly more.

These slippery slope/sliding scale things are always a judgement call - did it "mean" more? Was it an EA or just banter? Was the flirting "serious"?

Since these determinations are very much in the eye of the beholder, as the spouse your opinion counts (at least, within reason) for a lot. You feel she crossed a line. Well - she did in your view. It's not a "betrayal" or a "crossing of boundaries" for anyone else except you (and possibly the salesman's partner if he has one). Her refusal to acknowledge this doesn't change your view or your sense of hurt/betrayal/mistrust.

I'm not sure whether you should "let this blow over" or press the issue. That probably depends on a lot of things and eventual outcomes are by no means predictable either way you go.

Generally in my view, to use a chess metaphor, a spouse is at the level of a king/queen. A friend is at the (relative importance) level of a pawn or (possibly more important piece for certain specific friends, but you get the idea).  Anyhow, she should not be sacrificing a king for a pawn (and she probably wont' as it makes no sense, unless she's really starting to feel done with the marriage).

Since you outrank the salesman/friend, you (IMO) have a "right" to ask that she end all contact with him. If she wants a friend, that's fine, she can have other friends - but you can legitimately ask/insist that this specific friend be nixed. If she won't agree to that she is, in effect, sacrificing a king for a pawn and you have every business following up on just why she might feel that is ok, and take other reasonable action as you find appropriate.

[glows]

6 minutes ago, KD4life said:

Well I didnt know she sent them at first and then when asked about it she claimed it was because she got such a good deal on her car. She also used her personal credit card which I do not have access to and this card is basically for emergencies only.  Then after seeing it was his birthday on facebook I asked if it was for his birthday and not her car and I get the shes not going to argue about it response. She said she doesn't know when she sent them and apparently can't be bothered to look it up. Shes lied about it at every possible turn. 

 

Why would she wait two weeks to send cookies if it was for her car and not his birthday? She refuses to answer any questions 

Try looking at the marriage as a whole not one exclusively about car salesmen and cookies. This is on the surface only and you're getting upset and jealous over one incident. Think in the broad picture and ask yourself whether there are other resentments in the marriage, both of you not listening to one another, lack of understanding, communication and breakdown in marital vows. 

If she is cheating on you or looking outside the marriage, you only have to ask yourself whether you can tolerate it or whether there's potential to work on rebuilding that trust. She doesn't want to look up her credit card transactions because she doesn't have to. Her reporting to you about her transactions and what she buys is crossing into controlling and over the top behaviour in the marriage. You do not trust her so explore whether this can be repaired or whether it's beyond repair.

Edited June 9, 2022 by glows

[vla1120]

3 minutes ago, KD4life said:

Well I didnt know she sent them at first and then when asked about it she claimed it was because she got such a good deal on her car. She also used her personal credit card which I do not have access to and this card is basically for emergencies only.  Then after seeing it was his birthday on facebook I asked if it was for his birthday and not her car and I get the shes not going to argue about it response. She said she doesn't know when she sent them and apparently can't be bothered to look it up. Shes lied about it at every possible turn. 

 

Why would she wait two weeks to send cookies if it was for her car and not his birthday? She refuses to answer any questions 

She knows exactly when she sent them. Even if she doesn't, that's a 10-second email check, so she's clearly defensive and stonewalling. I am curious about why she goes through your phone like a hawk, but doesn't offer you the same opportunity. Was she cheated on by a prior partner? Also, cheaters often project this mistrusting behavior because of their own transgressions. How was your marriage prior to this incident? Would the two of you consider marriage counseling? 

[Alpacalia]

13 minutes ago, KD4life said:

Well I didnt know she sent them at first and then when asked about it she claimed it was because she got such a good deal on her car. She also used her personal credit card which I do not have access to and this card is basically for emergencies only.  Then after seeing it was his birthday on facebook I asked if it was for his birthday and not her car and I get the shes not going to argue about it response. She said she doesn't know when she sent them and apparently can't be bothered to look it up. Shes lied about it at every possible turn. 

 

Why would she wait two weeks to send cookies if it was for her car and not his birthday? She refuses to answer any questions 

Is this an isolated incident?

Has this been the only time you have been suspicious in your marriage?

However, if you are naturally accusatory and way you approach her, she will be defensive naturally.

I mean, you ripped her phone out of her hand.

However, if this was a single instance and she was acting in a very reactive manner, then I would definitely be paying attention to it.

[Els]

3 hours ago, KD4life said:

I didn't confiscate her phone. I saw her talking to someone when she didn't have a need at all to do so and wanted to keep reading when she started screaming for me to give her phone back.

I'm sorry, but this is a bit concerning. Is your wife only "allowed" to talk to men when she "needs to", and otherwise she's supposed to not talk to anyone of the male gender? I'm not necessarily saying that she's in the right, as some details do point towards a potential crush developing, but on the other hand some of the phrases you are using don't sit well with me either.

It doesn't sound like they're in affair territory (yet) though. Perhaps consider the fact that your actions are pushing her away emotionally, thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy...

By the way, I dunno about you but it's not at all uncommon in my social circles for people to give other people cookies for their birthday, even if they are of opposite genders and *gasp* married.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Elswyth

[KD4life]

1 hour ago, Alpacalia said:

Is this an isolated incident?

Has this been the only time you have been suspicious in your marriage?

However, if you are naturally accusatory and way you approach her, she will be defensive naturally.

I mean, you ripped her phone out of her hand.

However, if this was a single instance and she was acting in a very reactive manner, then I would definitely be paying attention to it.

Why are people assuming I ripped the phone from her hand? I saw it in the kitchen and she went absolutely nuts when she saw me on it.

[KD4life]

30 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

I'm sorry, but this is a bit concerning. Is your wife only "allowed" to talk to men when she "needs to", and otherwise she's supposed to not talk to anyone of the male gender? I'm not necessarily saying that she's in the right, as some details do point towards a potential crush developing, but on the other hand some of the phrases you are using don't sit well with me either.

It doesn't sound like they're in affair territory (yet) though. Perhaps consider the fact that your actions are pushing her away emotionally, thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy...

By the way, I dunno about you but it's not at all uncommon in my social circles for people to give other people cookies for their birthday, even if they are of opposite genders and *gasp* married.

I said she didn't need to talk to the car salesman because that's exactly how I feel about it. It's a car salesman she literally talked about over and over and over. Like I said she kept talking about this guy that I eventually started calling him her boyfriend when she brought him up. Its like she just couldnt help herself from talking about him. Then 2 weeks after we bought the car theyve still been texting each other on a daily basis and she sends him cookies without saying a word about it to me while hiding it on her credit card she never uses? I don't see how on earth I am just supposed to be okay with this. 

 

I can see people in social circles where friends or coworkers give each other cookies. When was the last time you bought a car and then bought the salesman cookies? 

[glows]

No one is suggesting that you have to be "ok" about anything but being fixated about it isn't going to help either. You've observed that she is evasive or doesn't want you going through her phone so don't engage in that. It's solving nothing but driving you crazy or making you more upset about the matter. Fixating on the incident will just make you appear paranoid, argumentative, controlling as you drive yourself more crazy about what she may be doing behind your back. I think this is triggering several individuals who have been cheated on and jumping on the bandwagon or egging you on in you feeling upset. 

You've not addressed why your marriage has broken down this far or what you wish to do. That can take time. Your situation is painful as you feel your wife pulling away from you (if she is). This is your side of the story only. It'd be interesting to hear hers. 

 

[Uruktopi]

2 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

Would she have sent the cookies on behalf of both of you?

It would be nice if there was a way to see if she sent just from her or if she sent it from both of you.

It´s good to be optimist...

But don´t blame me if I got surprised if she sent the cookies from both of them.

[KD4life]

3 hours ago, Uruktopi said:

It´s good to be optimist...

But don´t blame me if I got surprised if she sent the cookies from both of them.

She said she doesn't remember what she put on the card.

 

It's literally like pulling teeth trying to get an answer out of her when she's messed up. She just keeps lying straight to my face of she doesn't know when she sent the cookies or why or anything.

Edited June 9, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[Uruktopi]

I never looked to another´s one private communication, not to my partner´s phone, not to anyone´s else.

I never made a forceful physical treat to my partner (when there was one).

Even so, the op´s "faults" shoudn´t be used (yes, used) to put the focus outside of the very core of what happened.

Yes, she owns rights over her personal choices. No debate on this.

But a third person put in some place is not just a case of the personal domain.  Unless she becomes single to make it individual.

OP, you probably love her. And that´s good.

Don´t let this make opaque the fact that she is not the only prize whithin the relationship. You should also be one.

So, make it clear to her that if you become shifted from the special place you both should be for each other, she may become also moved from there.

And as you don´t plan to become unloyal, that could mean an end.

That is how serious I look at this, just IMO.

Best best best wishes

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Uruktopi

[Alpacalia]

1 hour ago, KD4life said:

Why are people assuming I ripped the phone from her hand? I saw it in the kitchen and she went absolutely nuts when she saw me on it.

Yes, you are absolutely right.

My apologies for the misreading.

However, I did not receive a response from you to any of my questions.

It would be helpful to take a step back and look at your marriage as a whole.

Whatever the case may be, I do agree with you that her behavior is odd. Your concern is entirely justified, and it's unclear exactly why she is corresponding with this car salesman.

For now, all you can do is believe her when she says nothin' is going on. But you have to figure out why she's doing it. Does she have no excitement in her life or is she bored?

That is something only she can tell you, so you will have to ask her.

It's not my intention to overwhelm your already overcrowded mind with more questions. But in order to let go of all this and move on, you need to be reassured that it was as innocent as she maintains it was. It will be her job to put your mind at ease, so that you can let go of all this.

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Alpacalia