Help - long running doubts in marriage

[pepperbird2]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:45 AM, Wiseman2 said:

That's the issue. No compromise. She would like a husband and partner and some romance. You may just want to veg out after work. The solution is not a cyberfantasy behind her back.

Enlist the help of social workers and respite care as far as dealing with your child.

You have verbalized something that has been bugging me abut the e OP's words.

OP, why did you have the energy after work to engage in an outside relationship ? You must have "watered the garden", so to speak, otherwise,nothing woudl have happened.
I'm not saying that to be critical-I've been married 25 years myself, and I know it has its ups and downs and there are times when being a spouse can be the loneliest place in the world. I understand wondering "what if"-not the emotional affair piece, but  the leaving piece. For me, that's transient. It's usually a response to something my spouse did that was too much.

f you don't mind me asking, when was the last time you invested the same amount of emotional energy with your wife as you did with your emotional affair? Did it make a difference?

also, as the mom to three special need skids- do yourself and your children a favour- get respite care, a baby sitter, relative someone else you trust to watch your child and go out as a couple. Even if it's just for 15 minutes at first, then longer. We learned this the hard away. It's not going to be easy at first, but it will be a good learning experience for your child, and it's much easier to do it now than later on.

[Will am I]

2 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

f you don't mind me asking, when was the last time you invested the same amount of emotional energy with your wife as you did with your emotional affair? Did it make a difference?

I don't mind, because it's a fair and relevant question.

The last time is the most recent period, after EA. Before that, years ago. We spent years on autopilot, with each one of us engulved in our own tasks and responsibilities and neither one committed to invest much in the relationship. Maybe we were too tired, maybe we were too careless, maybe we had put the bar too low.

About the suggestion to get some extra babisitting or childcare on board: our son is becoming somewhat easier now that he is getting older. We do have babysitting arrangements and "us time" now. For years we didn't. I don;t think my wife was particularly interested, whenever I spoke of the idea she would brush it off as impossible to leave our son alone. 

 

Right now I feel we're on a better track. I see how much of an effort my wife is willing to make and it makes me hopeful for the future. A simple example is when we go to bed now, she will take initiative for some cuddling and kissing. We do that every night now, if only for a few minutes. I value it a lot because it makes me much more wanted as a man. The big hurdle ahead is that extra effort we both make has to be followed by more opening up to eachother. Being more open, more responsive to eachother.

Because if something is a deliberate effort it's hard to keep up for a long time.

[Weezy1973]

Honestly @Will am I your marriage sounds like a very normal marriage with kids. There is a lot of divide and conquer and ships passing in the night aspects to it. And you are two different people so you’re not going to see eye to eye on everything (money for example). That is all to be expected. 
 

From what I can see, most of the problems stem from a combination of conflict avoidance and a lack of communication. And even that is somewhat normal considering the demands of your lives and the exhaustion you both likely feel when you do get some time together alone. 
 

I think your unhappiness stems from two things that are related. The main thing is unrealistic expectations. I’ve mentioned a couple times in the thread that we’re not responsible for our partners happiness and you’ve subtly pushed back on that. You’re unhappiness comes from within. Framed by these unrealistic expectations. And that was largely exacerbated by your affair. So now you’re comparing your married life to what you felt during your affair and feel there’s something wrong with the marriage. 
 

I don’t see anything wrong with the marriage. Normal ebbs and flows. Connection and disconnection. In the course of a long term marriage these things will happen. It seems like you’re on track to reconnect now. But I suspect your happiness will not follow. It’s a you problem. Not a marriage problem.

[giotto]

35 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

You’re unhappiness comes from within. Framed by these unrealistic expectations. And that was largely exacerbated by your affair. So now you’re comparing your married life to what you felt during your affair and feel there’s something wrong with the marriage. 

The OP had an affair because he was unhappy in his marriage. He is not unhappy now because he is comparing his marriage to his affair. The couple is mismatched, but you are right when you talk about unrealistic expectations. I get the impression that the OP will never be happy, because the gap between his expectations and reality is too wide. This marriage is not enough for him and doesn't match the idea of perfect marriage he has in his head. But I understand that. I was in a good marriage and I destroyed it exactly because of my ridiculous expectations and selfishness.  

[heartwhole2]

2 hours ago, Will am I said:

 

Because if something is a deliberate effort it's hard to keep up for a long time.

23 hours ago, Will am I said:

Agree about how happiness is everyone’s own responsibility. But of course as a spouse you can make an effort to please your spouse and help them feel happy. Or you can hold back on that.

As for being “mr. perfect”, making an extra effort to align my behavior with the way she likes it best.

Why not permanently? Because it’s extra effort. Running instead of walking. Further out of my comfort zone.

I challenge you to look at this differently. It takes, what, 21 days to form a habit? I'm not sure if you are considering your marriage on its death bed because affection isn't effortless like it was in your EA, but that's part of the normal cycle of a marriage. Sometimes affection feels really effortless. Sometimes it takes concerted effort to jumpstart a virtuous cycle. But generally, after you go through the motions of cuddling or doing something nice for your spouse, it takes off from there. Your spouse reacts appreciatively and returns your effort, and then before you know it, it doesn't feel like effort anymore; it's just how you two normally interact.

Remember that the grass is greenest where you water it. Effort isn't a sign that your marriage isn't working. Effort means that you understand that you get out what you put in. Effort is an act of love. Everything worthwhile requires effort.

[mark clemson]

It's very true that marriage isn't always easy and "takes work". I would note in addition though that it's easy to say "I see nothing wrong with this shoe" when you're not the one actually wearing it. If it's too much effort, or only one-sided effort, or the effort just isn't getting results, then it points to deeper problems. People slowly change and unfortunately sometimes a couple grows apart over time and one or both of them wake up one day to find they are essentially incompatible. Happens all the time, unfortunately.

Edited July 15, 2022 by mark clemson

[Will am I]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  Allow me to let this sink in and answer in the morning.

 

[Will am I]

A recurring theme in the last couple of posts is unrealistic expectations, in particular the expectation that my wife would need to make me happy.

My take on this: you are right to put responsibility for my emotional state in my own hands.

But there is a flip side. Relationships obviously affect our emotions. Intimate relationships can add a lot to our sense of belonging which makes a person more deeply rooted; and even has a proven effect on life expectancy. People without deep relationships die younger.

But intimate relationships done badly can also hurt people. They can destroy a person’s self esteem and make them experience a string sense of rejection on a daily basis.

Without holding my wife responsible to my emotional state, I can still ask myself the question: do I expect a positive or negative impact from the marriage on my emotional state, overseeing the future?

Frankly the balance has been negative over the past years. Doesn’t mean there weren’t good sides. I would even go so far as to write that the marriage is generally a well functioning one. It hasn’t been loveless, and it has provided a safe and warm place for the children to grow up.

But something inside of me has been screaming “I want out”. It’s on and off but it’s been there for years. There has been a distinct sense of rejection and subsequent loneliness. 

My thoughts about leaving the marriage are basically whether I would be willing to walk away from something good (being a safe and reasonably well functioning marriage, with children in the home with both birth parents, a first marriage without burdain from previous relationships)

to chase something more joyful but potentially not so good.

 

 

[basil67]

35 minutes ago, Will am I said:

But intimate relationships done badly can also hurt people. They can destroy a person’s self esteem and make them experience a string sense of rejection on a daily basis.

Are you speaking in general terms here?  Or do you actually feel your relationship is destroying your self esteem and causing you to feel daily rejection?   Those are some very strong words....is she actually treating you badly?  

Thing is, your writing is very vague and speaks in very broad terms.  If you're expressing yourself to your wife like you express yourself here, she probably has no idea of what could be done differently.  Perhaps use this as a springboard to find examples of how things could look.   I'm talking specifics here

Edited July 16, 2022 by basil67

[spiritedaway2003]

I think that if something tells you you want out, then you want out. I think the most practical advice (due to impact to others, namely your family) is this: do everything you can to see if you can reignite the spark and connection.  That way, even if you end up leaving, you'd know you put everything into it. You are the only person who knows if the gnawing doubts are something you can accept or not.  I admit I'm slightly conflicted in the advice I want to give you because I believe in the institution of marriage - that a commitment is something to fight for.  But I also had conflicting advice because my former MM (now divorced) was like you in many ways and I see the struggles.

I used to be a workaholic so I'll draw a parallel.  If someone is in an unhappy job and indicates that the job is a source of stress, well meaning friends and loved ones would advise you to assess the pros and cons.  Maybe they would offer suggestions to improve the situation (e.g. talk to your supervisor, target the problem areas, maybe even change your mindset and attitude).  All are well meaning, but that's not to stay that the environment isn't a factor.  I'm a little puzzled at the suggestion that it's solely a "you" problem.  I don't believe most loved ones would offer the advice, "it's you ...so just suck it up", especially if they know that you've been thoughtful and intentional (as you have been here).  That said, I think there is a clear gap in terms of your expectations around what you need from your marriage to stay in it, especially knowing your wife's history.  You'd knew this going into the marriage, so the question may be, "what changed?"  That might be a more valid question to assess...this is a more rhetorical question; no need to answer here.

Going back to the work parallel, I once transitioned to a more challenging role and it was one that was not aligned well to my skillset.  I ended up dreading coming into the work everyday.  I tried everything (doubling down in self-study -- I'm educated in the field and a quick study) to no avail.  It doesn't matter how I tried to talk myself out of it -- I was miserable and I knew it.  I stuck it out for as long as I did, but I ended up leaving because it was killing me slowly, even if it paid me well.  I took another job and ended up in a job that I love. The difference was night and day.  I'm not saying to jump ship at the first sign of trouble, nor did I  regret doing everything to stick it out at the old job (only that I probably should have left sooner), but sometimes a mismatch is just mismatch.  That threshold is different for everyone -- some people will be ok with staying because it pays the bills.  Other will stay because there are other elements that compensate and no job is perfect (and there will always be more options out there).  Some people will find it soul sucking and leave.  Only you can make the determination as to where that line is. 

It is absolutely true that that your spouse can't make you happy.   You, yourself, are responsible for your own happiness.   It is also true that being in the wrong relationship can affect your level of happiness.  So long as you weigh all the pros and cons and you can come to a decision that you can live with, then you would be ok.   Maybe you will have regrets down the line from leaving a marriage that seems perfectly acceptable to most, or maybe you feel like it's the right decision after all.  That is the great unknown - and no on can really knows. People here actually say all the time that "people divorce everyday" or "why cheat and not divorce and instead of a affair"?  You are trying to take the ethical, more intentional approach here so that's a good sign, even if I think your expectations/conditions for your wife are a little unrealistic based on desired outcomes.  I think part of what's difficult here in terms of advice is that it becomes a judgement call.  To the average observer, the question is more along the lines of, "why leave when marriage doesn't seem all that terrible (there is no abuse, no violence, no major red flags)?"  I would actually say those are the kind of relationships that are the hardest to walk away from because there isn't really a tangible reason other than one's own perceived incompatibilities and unhappiness in the relationship.  In the absence of a catalyst, one can stay perfectly in the status quo for a long time. 

Just another way of looking at things.  At the end of the day, you are the one that has to walk down the path in your shoes, so make sure it's one that you can live with and one that is authentic to you.

Edited July 17, 2022 by spiritedaway2003

[Will am I]

Let me get back on this when I’m behind a proper keyboard. Your input is much appreciated @basil67 and @spiritedaway2003

[giotto]

If your marriage is making you unhappy, leave the marriage. You only live once. You are still quite young. Don't do like me. I'm nearly 60 and I feel I wasted most of my life by doing what other people wanted me to do. I will be 100% free next year with no kids or wife to support and I'm really looking forward to my new freedom.  

Edited July 17, 2022 by giotto

[vla1120]

I've restarted my post numerous times. I decided to sleep on it and answer you today. I've always been of the mindset that there are only a few valid reasons for divorce - infidelity, abuse (whether physical or emotional), and addiction (whether drugs, alcohol or gambling). Pretty much anything other than that, the couple should seek therapy and do everything necessary to keep their family together. 

There are times I wish I would have stayed in my marriage because not only did it break up our family, my girls and I also lost his family - which was our only extended family for 32 years since we lived so far away from my family. Also, he is now estranged from our daughters because he chose an insecure, jealous woman who demanded he have absolutely no contact with me, and slowly but surely, isolated him from our daughters (though I blame him for allowing that to happen.) So because of all this, I feel sometimes that I should have just stayed in the unhappy marriage so my daughters would still have their core family and extended family. It truly saddens me to see them struggle at holidays, Father's Day, birthdays, etc.

When I am feeling like this, however, I try to remember back to how I felt so unfulfilled and unloved and uncared for, especially when I went through breast cancer with no emotional support from him and how I deserved BETTER than that then, and now. Then, I regret not leaving much sooner, when my girls were younger so they would make the transition easier. I think the older the kids are when you divorce, the harder it is for them. Of course, it makes it easiest on them when the two parents can successfully co-parent without the undue influence of new partners who interfere. Like I told my husband many times - co-parenting doesn't stop just because the kids turn 18. Parents should still be able to communicate freely about their kids regardless of age, especially when one has special needs and/or mental illness, or just needs a little more emotional support than most, ideally from BOTH parents!  

Of course, we only get one ride on the merry-go-round. There are no do-overs. So we should all live our best life without regret or "what-ifs". If you've done everything you can to save your marriage and you are still not fulfilled, then you should leave and give yourself a chance at happiness with someone else. Just try to maintain a cordial relationship with your wife for the purpose of successfully co-parenting your children well past the age of consent. Also, be aware of the pitfalls and the landmines - women who will be jealous of your ex and/or your children and try to come between you. It seems the world is full of them.

[Will am I]

@basil67

It's a long series of small stings, mostly in the more physical areas of our relationship. Anything from clothing choices to the way we have sex: every single thing and every single time needs to be within the confines of her comfort zone. I could look at things from a psychological perspective and attribute things to an unsafe chilhood etc. But I'm not her counselor, I'm her husband and I'm not an impartial observer here. The effect that all these little "only in my comfort zone" signals have on me is that they leave me feeling arms-lengthed; allowed-but-not-chased-after, tolerated-but-not-wanted. I feel a lot of rejection in that, even if it is never purposely meant to hurt me. Maybe not daily but very frequently. I also notice that I've become sensitized. Which means that I either need to fix the sensitivity (don't know how), or I will experience it stronger and stronger.

@spiritedaway2003

I feel that you truly get me in that post.

I am very reluctant to step out of the marriage. Because I feel I would be throwing away something good. The marriage is not an unsafe, violent or toxic place. Two children are growing up in this house and they are doing well. 

Yet... on the emotional level I am not doing well. There are the emotional red flags. Like I'm always happy leaving for work in the morning (when working away) or when my wife leaves the home to go to her volunteering job or to visit a friend. Vice versa when I commute home I sense a little bit of anxiety. Sense of duty makes me leave the office in time but I'd rather work a little bit later. Not to mention the countless times that I have experienced the rejection and loneliness fresh in the moment, and I find myself walking the dog late in the evening and overwhelmed by the feeling how much I want out.

I've mentioned before: the marriage seems to be right on the edge between "stay" and "go". It's just way to good to throw away. But it's also too painful to continue for the rest of my life. 

Taking it one at the time has helped me cope for years. In your words: I stayed in the status quo for a long time. 

Enter two catalysts. First one is age: when I passed the age of 40 I started looking more and more at the long term. Stuff I had been dealing with on autopilot started becoming more prominent in my mind, because I started adding up the long term balance more. "I'm sure I can deal with this. But do I want to deal with this for the rest of my life?" Second catalyst was when I let my heart stray and fell in love with xOW. I remember someone once wrote "the affair changed you". Didn't like those words at the time. Didn't seem reasonable that a fling that lasted so short would have a permanent impact. Turns out they were right after all.

Here's the thing: fall in love with someone else, leave that behind, try to fall back in love with your spouse -- I found myself on the outside walking in on my marriage. The perspective changed.

@giotto

I do feel a certain sense of urgency. Not like I have to make these permanent decisions in a week, but I shouldn't let it linger for many more years. 

@vla1120

Your post seems to second the line of thought of spiritesaway's post.

You also speak of being diligent and careful, "doing everything you can". I am very much with that. 

We're entering couples counseling as we speak. Both in our private 1 on 1 talks and with the counselor I aim to explain excactly how the marriage sometimes feels like it's slowly killing me. But always with the emphasis on my desire to make it better, and always indicating that she will never unexpectedly come home to a house with my stuff gone. I tell her all the time, I'm still here and I promise that I will let you know when my intentions start to shift.

Heavy as it i,  I do speak openly about the fact that divorce is still an option if we can't or won't work it out. I realize that I took a pretty major head start on the divorce thoughts (usually it's the woman who has the head start, we're different in that). I don't find it fair to move out and move on with my lif while my ex-wife is still completely dazzled by the blow. So I think it's my job to onboard her into my thoughts and feelings and make sure we're on the same page here. So that, if the moment comes that we draw the final conclusion about our marriage, it may be a joint decision without too much emotions except the sadness that we weren't able to move past this point.

Only then would I have the feeling that I have given it my best.

[Weezy1973]

57 minutes ago, Will am I said:

The effect that all these little "only in my comfort zone" signals have on me is that they leave me feeling arms-lengthed; allowed-but-not-chased-after, tolerated-but-not-wanted. I feel a lot of rejection in that, even if it is never purposely meant to hurt me.

Without knowing the details, your reaction seems outsized. To me it reads that you feel rejected because she's not interested in some of the things you want to do sexually. Again - this is pretty normal. My wife and I had conversations early on about what we like and don't like and that's a good thing. Your wife being clear on that is a good thing. And if you love her, why would you want her to do something she doesn't want to do? As soon as my wife told me some things she didn't like, I had no interest in doing those things. I don't understand your feelings of rejection, to the point that it makes me think these low self-esteem, low self-worth type feelings come from somewhere else prior to marriage. You did mention you struggled with depression prior to marriage. Where did that stem from? How was your childhood?

 

Again, I'll point out that your marriage, from all your descriptions seems good. Not perfect of course, but that doesn't exist. What seems off, is your feelings. And feelings have very little meaning. They come and go. You strike me as someone who ruminates over things, and it is your thoughts primarily that actually lead to your feelings. That's part of what I mean when I say you're responsible for your own happiness. The way you frame things in your life will largely determine how you feel. If you're grateful for the many wonderful things your wife / marriage / kids have given you and think about those things, you will be happy. If you ruminate over hurtful words said by your wife years and years ago, or interpret her desire to stay in her comfort zone sexually as an egregious rejection, of course you're going to be unhappy. But the past isn't happening anymore, and your wife's sexual preferences aren't personal against you. This is what I mean by it's a "you" problem and not a marriage problem. It's the way you're framing things in your mind that is causing the unhappiness. Not the marriage.

 

Finally, I'll say focusing on feelings or trying to chase feelings like "joy" as you said in a previous post is problematic and usually doesn't end well. Instead, focusing on your core values and behaving in ways that align with those values will lead to a richer, fuller life. And a rich, full life will encompass a range of emotions, and the emotions are transitory. So what are your core values? What kind of husband do you want to be? What kind of a father? What kind of son do you want to be? What kind of friend?

[vla1120]

1 hour ago, Will am I said:

Yet... on the emotional level I am not doing well. There are the emotional red flags. Like I'm always happy leaving for work in the morning (when working away) or when my wife leaves the home to go to her volunteering job or to visit a friend. Vice versa when I commute home I sense a little bit of anxiety. Sense of duty makes me leave the office in time but I'd rather work a little bit later. Not to mention the countless times that I have experienced the rejection and loneliness fresh in the moment, and I find myself walking the dog late in the evening and overwhelmed by the feeling how much I want out.

I felt a little pang in my chest when I read this. I, too, used to relish my alone time and dreaded the weekends when we would both be home together all the time. For the better part of our marriage, he worked nights, I worked days. It's quite possible that's why I was able to stay as long as I did. (I also just had a memory pop into my head. I was leaving for work one day. He wasn't speaking to me for whatever reason. Our youngest - 5 at the time - said "Daddy. Give mommy a kiss goodbye. You are her husband and she is your life."  She meant "wife", of course. Out of the mouths of babes. They don't miss a thing. 

I'm sorry you find yourself at this fork in the road. I think you are handling everything very thoughtfully with careful consideration. I wish you the best. 

[vla1120]

49 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Finally, I'll say focusing on feelings or trying to chase feelings like "joy" as you said in a previous post is problematic and usually doesn't end well. Instead, focusing on your core values and behaving in ways that align with those values will lead to a richer, fuller life. And a rich, full life will encompass a range of emotions, and the emotions are transitory. So what are your core values? What kind of husband do you want to be? What kind of a father? What kind of son do you want to be? What kind of friend?

I also wholeheartedly believe in this.^^^ It's why I am always of the mindset that many marriages can be salvaged with the right amount of effort from both parties. Don't throw away the baby with the bath water. If you have the basic structure of a good marriage, that's more than half the battle. If you can communicate to your wife what you are missing, what you want and she can reciprocate, both of you (and your kids) have hit the lottery. The grass is greenest where you fertilize/water the lawn. 

I know. I keep going back and forth. It's a woman's prerogative to change her mind (and a man's, too.)

[basil67]

2 hours ago, Will am I said:

@basil67

It's a long series of small stings, mostly in the more physical areas of our relationship. Anything from clothing choices to the way we have sex: every single thing and every single time needs to be within the confines of her comfort zone. I could look at things from a psychological perspective and attribute things to an unsafe chilhood etc. But I'm not her counselor, I'm her husband and I'm not an impartial observer here. The effect that all these little "only in my comfort zone" signals have on me is that they leave me feeling arms-lengthed; allowed-but-not-chased-after, tolerated-but-not-wanted. I feel a lot of rejection in that, even if it is never purposely meant to hurt me. Maybe not daily but very frequently. I also notice that I've become sensitized. Which means that I either need to fix the sensitivity (don't know how), or I will experience it stronger and stronger.

In all seriousness, why does her clothing choice (I assume her choices for herself) make you feel rejected or not wanted?  The way someone chooses to present themselves is about them, not about anyone else.  

Also, the whole concept of sexual consent involves staying within limits of what the other party is comfortable with.   Wanting a sexual partner to do things they aren't comfortable with is a huge No these days.  It may ultimately be that you want a woman who's sexual style involves hanging off chandeliers, but the fact that she's sexually conservative doesn't mean that she's necessarily rejecting/tolerating you.  

 

[basil67]

3 hours ago, Will am I said:

Not to mention the countless times that I have experienced the rejection and loneliness fresh in the moment, and I find myself walking the dog late in the evening and overwhelmed by the feeling how much I want out.

Here's another example which I'm struggling to understand.  What is she doing to reject you and make you feel so lonely late in the evening?  Is it that she argues with you...or doesn't want to spend time with you?  

[heartwhole2]

I echo others that reading your posts, I'm struggling to see why you are so unhappy in your marriage. That's not to discount your feelings - they are real - but to tell you that if you want to save your marriage, it certainly seems to have potential. Your wife has responded positively to your hard conversations, and that's half the battle.

The truth is that you may simply not want to be married. You admit that you did it just . . . because it was the expected thing to do. You may not have known yourself when you made that choice. Of course, the reality is that now there is a wife and kids as a result of that choice. You can't go back in time and make a different choice. Getting a divorce impacts more than just you, and the other players deserve careful consideration.

One theme I see with you is resentment . . . resentment is taking a small moment that may be a misunderstanding or one-off, and compounding it. Instead of dealing with one small moment, you now have the negative feelings associated with 100 moments. Consider how you can change this pattern; when you feel rejected, you can be vulnerable about that and say so. Your wife doesn't sound like she's cruel or dismissive of you, so give her the benefit of the doubt that she's dealing with her own stuff and not understanding how you are feeling . . . she's not a mind reader. I didn't realize that my husband is a resentment collector. I'm a very direct person and if I have something to share, I do so. I assumed he was availing himself of the same opportunity. I didn't understand that having an unstable parent taught him to swallow his complaints. This came to a head when he had an affair and rewrote our marital history to focus on all the negatives (yet on DDay, when he was all righteous and angry, all he could accuse me of was not asking him about his day often enough, so clearly his feelings and reality didn't line up).

It's hard to know if divorce would solve your restlessness. You mentioned wanting to stay at work longer but feeling like you can't. What if you had more carte blance to do things out of the house? What if your wife cheered you on when you did things for you, and then the time apart made you appreciate being together more? Again, we can't tell you if you're just not cut out for marriage, to this person or anyone, or if you are experiencing some kind of ennui that's about unrealistic expectations and looking for external gratification when internal work is what's needed.

Remember that study about how people who undergo big changes, like losing a limb or winning the lottery, revert to their average level of happiness after a period of adjustment? Do you think that if you divorced, you would find yourself back here, not knowing why you can't find contentment?

FWIW, we were able to resuscitate our marriage when the affair almost pushed it off the cliff. We reached out to each other - he sent me songs, I sent him poems. We held hands. I smelled his armpits (I read this is good to re-bond with your mate). Everything was terrible and yet, there was beauty in it too. I knew that the odds that we could make it were pretty high. I knew I had married someone with a good character with whom I was very compatible. He did have a lot of work to do on himself, and who knows if he ever would have if not for the affair (since it was certainly a get out of jail free card for me, if I wanted one). It was traumatic and I lost tons of weight and had to grieve and challenge myself to forgive when I have a lot of pride, but also, the days were full of joy too. There we go reverting to our mean level of happiness.

The biggest thing I've learned is that it's all in your perspective. You can focus on that one moment that felt like a rejection or you can look for all the moments that are reaching out. At first, this feels forced and unnatural, like you're two amateur actors in a bad play saying, "Oh, thank you for holding my hand. That was nice. Did you have a nice day?" But if you're lucky, that connection becomes a habit and before you know it, you're enjoying your time together and apart, and sneaking off to have sex while the kids are eating dinner.

I don't want to discount your feelings of unhappiness. They have obviously been going on a long time. But what hasn't been going on a long time is open, honest communication. I think you have the potential to reach levels of intimacy and harmony and gratitude that you never have before. Because really, that's what this life is all about . . . the precious moments we get to spend with the people we love. Don't expect your relationship with your wife of 15 years to feel like flirting with a 20 year old because it won't. But know that really knowing someone, and choosing to love them even on the days when you aren't feeling it, is a deeply rewarding experience. Riches, accolades, accomplishments . . . these are nice and all, but they aren't what we're going to be thinking about in our final moments. That's just our people.

My personal opinion is that we could have a happy relationship with numerous people. Or, likewise, we can experience our family-of-origin issues with numerous people. Maybe for you that's (re)creating a dynamic in which you are rejected because this is what's familiar and known, or maybe it's so that you can avoid true intimacy. Is it any wonder you felt comfortable opening up via email to someone who was physically very distant, as well as age-wise? I do think you have a lot to think about in therapy, and that this question of "should I stay or should I go?" is connected to many other themes and issues for you. It's not a question you will be able to answer until you see how far you and your wife are able to take your new efforts, and until you face some truths about yourself that you've been conveniently wrapping up into "my wife rejects me."

Good luck as you do this important and rewarding work.

[giotto]

9 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

I don't want to discount your feelings of unhappiness.

The feelings of unhappiness have been brought about by the emotional affair. The OP was reminded how good it feels to be loved and wanted. Not feeling rejected all the time. Trapped in a soulless marriage. I understand that. I felt the same, even without an emotional affair. But I do remember the times when we were young and we loved each other and we had this long distance relationship and we couldn't wait to see each other again. And I wonder... what did happen? Life happened. My wife's mental problems got worse, I detached and then she detached. We were overwhelmed. We lost the spark. And I should have left 20 years ago, instead I believed we could make it together. We didn't. I really wish I left then, even with small kids. As I said before... if you don't see a way out, get out.

[pepperbird2]

7 hours ago, giotto said:

The feelings of unhappiness have been brought about by the emotional affair. The OP was reminded how good it feels to be loved and wanted. Not feeling rejected all the time. Trapped in a soulless marriage. I understand that. I felt the same, even without an emotional affair. But I do remember the times when we were young and we loved each other and we had this long distance relationship and we couldn't wait to see each other again. And I wonder... what did happen? Life happened. My wife's mental problems got worse, I detached and then she detached. We were overwhelmed. We lost the spark. And I should have left 20 years ago, instead I believed we could make it together. We didn't. I really wish I left then, even with small kids. As I said before... if you don't see a way out, get out.

Methinks you're projecting a lot here. it also sounds like you have some unfinished business re: how your marriage ended.

[giotto]

2 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

Methinks you're projecting a lot here. it also sounds like you have some unfinished business re: how your marriage ended.

I don’t disagree with you. Just trying to give a different perspective from someone who’s been there and made mistakes. 

[Will am I]

On 7/17/2022 at 11:14 PM, Weezy1973 said:

Without knowing the details, your reaction seems outsized

This is what I have been debating internally for a while, because indeed it's little things. But it's a lot of little things, and structurally, and the overall feeling is basically that she won't move. She will barely change any of her ways even if it's a small change and something that might have meant a lot to me. At the same time she also wanted me to move. Which makes it a power struggle.

And an old one at that. Rewind >15 years. Back in the early days of our marriage I feel I adjusted myself for her a lot more than she did for me. I felt like I was taking three steps in her direction, waited for her to take one step in my direction, she typically wouldn't, and she'd be angry with me for not taking the fourth step.

Why this was so out of balance, I don't know to this day. I can only guess. She was very insecure at the time and didn't have much of an example from her parents (they're strangely still together but it's the most disfunctional marriage I've seen in my life). I figure that yielding to her partner was very hard for her and she probabkly felt like she ran a marathon when I saw her make a baby step. It's subjective, but I don't perceive we ended up in the middle back then.

Fast forward a few years. At some point I must have gotten tired of this struggle and started to pursue peaceful coexistence instead of intimacy. Call it checking out. I think my wife silently agreed on this approach and also checked out. We established a peaceful coexistence with half baked intimacy, resentments covered up, and we tried to make it appear more pleasant with lots of nice trips and restaurants. From the outside it probably looks lovely. I think if I didn't have a 90th percentile income the picture would have fallen apart quicker.

The biggest problem the marriage is facing now is coming back from like 10 years of being checked out. And as we come out, the struggles that were current back then may reemerge.

On 7/18/2022 at 5:01 AM, heartwhole2 said:

One theme I see with you is resentment . . . resentment is taking a small moment that may be a misunderstanding or one-off, and compounding it. Instead of dealing with one small moment, you now have the negative feelings associated with 100 moments

I feel your post is nailing it.

Someone in this thread recently mentioned the word "conflict avoidant" and that's totally me. Add to that my wife is not the most emphatic person (which she covers up by being very  extravert, sometimes even brash). Respecting boundaries was also very hard for her in the earlier days (which I understood only later. basically her boundaries were not respected as a child and teenager, this is a obscure pattern that I didn't learn about until later).

A million times I would have liked to say something but didn't feel I got my message across. It's moments like these, where you're not getting recignition for your feelings, that resentment builds.

On 7/18/2022 at 5:01 AM, heartwhole2 said:

I don't want to discount your feelings of unhappiness. They have obviously been going on a long time. But what hasn't been going on a long time is open, honest communication.

Excactly.

I needed to understand more about psychology and relationships, start figuring myself out more, man up, establish the vision that I was going to require change of the patterns that hurt me in the past. Preferably in the marriage, but else outside of it. These are the preparation steps that I took this year and that have gotten us to the foot of the mountain and hopefully in a shape to climb it.

I think I probably could have been at this point a number of years earlier. But because we had ended up in some sort of comfort zone, the years just went by too easily.

On 7/18/2022 at 5:01 AM, heartwhole2 said:

or maybe it's so that you can avoid true intimacy. Is it any wonder you felt comfortable opening up via email to someone who was physically very distant, as well as age-wise?

I think most of all xOW wasn't completely available (even if she made herself out to be very available). But by "available" I don't refer to her willingness to enter a romantic relationship but to the constraints of it.  Geo distance and age gap are constraining factors. 

There is indeed a pattern where some people always go for unavailable partners. People who crave intimacy as much as anyone else but at the same time shy away from it. xOW and me had it from both sides. This is something for me to consider privately and in therapy. Was I connecting with someone unavailable because I was reluctant about the prospect of something real developing, something that would knock the marriage over and turn my life upside down? Or is the pattern deeper than this affair? 

 

[heartwhole2]

5 hours ago, Will am I said:

These are the preparation steps that I took this year and that have gotten us to the foot of the mountain and hopefully in a shape to climb it.

This is an exciting place to be! And also daunting, I know. But you didn't even know there was a mountain there before, and now the fog is clearing. Whatever happens with your marriage, I think you are going to experience a lot more contentment and self-insight after doing this work.

There was a time when I didn't know there was anything to work on either. The day before DDay I was obliviously telling a therapist friend that I didn't understand why people need marriage counseling because you just say your piece . . . how is that hard? Was the universe laughing at me, or what? As much as I dearly wish there had been no affair, it was definitely a catalyst for learning how to cope with stress, how to love in a transformational way, how to communicate hard things, how to soothe yourself rather than lashing out or retreating. I learned that the golden rule is treating another how we want to be treated, but maybe even more precious is understanding how the other person wants to be treated and honoring that, even if it's different from what we would want.

Learning to communicate wasn't easy. Our pattern was that I would say my piece as soon as I thought of it, and then my husband would unleash the twenty things he'd been carrying around because he figured if we were having an "unpleasant" conversation, he might as well throw his stuff in. I would be overwhelmed, having just assumed we were going to discuss my one small thing and then finding a giant pile of resentments thrown at me in a tit for tat fashion. We both had to learn how and when to bring things to each other . . . for me, not to just throw it out the second I thought of it, and for him, to bring things up in a timely manner and not be afraid to have a hard conversation. We fought like never before because he stopped bottling things up. Eventually, we built up enough personal resilience and goodwill that issues are discussed kindly and easily.

For example, recently something triggered an affair memory, and when I brought it up, my husband was kind of defensive, so I said, "I'm not going to absorb your defensiveness. I'm bringing this up because I hope you can have curiosity about what hurts me, and hold space for me to feel those feelings when I need to." And he was like, oh wow, yeah, gotcha. It didn't spiral into him feeling criticized and me feeling unheard. He didn't respond perfectly, but that was OK because I had enough self-soothing skills to handle my own feelings and separate them from his. And hopefully next time we're in a similar situation, he'll remember what I'm looking for.

It's been 7 years and he still goes to therapy. (I always seem to get graduated from therapy when I go, which I guess is because I'm pretty good at analyzing myself, but I certainly wouldn't mind talking about myself for an hour here or there.) We laughed recently because he apologized to his therapist for talking about himself so much, and the therapist was like, well, um, that's what you pay me for  . . . I don't really know what he discusses because he wants to keep it private, but he did tell me recently that he was telling his therapist about how amazing I am. As I've mentioned before, perspective is really important. I have health problems and I can't accomplish much around the house, so on paper I don't bring much to the table, but we're happy and connected. Our home is full of joy and love. We do our best to understand what our partner needs. Our sex life is pretty great. If you focus on what you don't have, you'll always be unhappy. But if you focus on what you do have, your heart will be full of gratitude. Remember that study that happily married couples have 5 positive interactions for every 1 negative interaction? Once you do all this hard work and learn how to communicate and not internalize every hard conversation as criticism, then the virtuous cycle just sort of perpetuates itself. It takes hard work to build up that momentum, but eventually it becomes the norm in your relationship.

Of course, it takes two people. You can't perpetuate a virtuous cycle all by yourself. You can do it for a short time to keep your marriage on life support while you wait to see if your spouse will step up too (that's what I would say was happening during the affair, when my husband kept trying to set up conflict and I kept trying to give the benefit of the doubt and reach out . . . I didn't get married to be enemies so I wasn't going to take that bait). She may not. Or maybe she will, but you two will decide you'd be better as co-parents than as lovers. That's all OK. The good news is that doing this work will pay dividends no matter the outcome.