Help - long running doubts in marriage

[Weezy1973]

5 hours ago, Will am I said:

My wife's main question on the matter is what I was thinking to get involved with a woman less then 10 years older than our daughter. Which is a very logical and valid question, in comparison my answer (I didn't set out to get involved with her, it developed from benign contact) sounds weak and not very convincing. But it's the truth and I don't have a better answer there.

 

The answer is that when your feelings developed, instead of distancing yourself and cutting things off, you let your feelings control your behaviour. Crushes are generally going to happen from time to time, even when married. It's having the awareness and then cutting things off - protecting your marriage as it were - that's important. And you didn't do that.

[Will am I]

You are right, that is excactly what I did.

I have 0 justifications, but 3 explanations:

1. loneliness. The more lonely you feel, the harder it is to withstand affection in any form. Including the romantic and sexual forms.

2. not caring much about my marriage. If you feel your marriage is mostly making you miserable, you can conclude that you don’t have so much to loose.

3. expecting the marriage to fail. If you feel like at some point it will slip from your hands and shatter anyway, what’s the point of defending it?

The interesting part is that all 3 spring from the same root of feeling lonely and not expecting that feeling to change. And all three work together in lowering the willingness to do anything to protect the marriage.

Like I said, explaning and not justifying.

[giotto]

Do you love your wife?

[Will am I]

I do. I truly do.

Do I love her? Yes.

Does she love me? Yes. No doubt there.

Does this simple equation always add up to me feeling loved? No.

So many episodes where I would be out walking the dog at night and just wonder, “what the *** am I doing here? I want out.”

Strong sense of being in the wrong place, being in a situation that is not suitable for me as a person. Way too much conflict in my home (I’m naturally a conflict avoiding person). Spouse who comes from a hurtful background and after all these years still has a lot of trouble expressing her love (leaving me feeling sad and lonely).

I grew up thinking that mutual love would be enough to have a good and pleasant marriage. Turns out it isn’t.
 

[giotto]

1 minute ago, Will am I said:

I do. I truly do.

Do I love her? Yes.

Does she love me? Yes. No doubt there.

Does this simple equation always add up to me feeling loved? No.

So many episodes where I would be out walking the dog at night and just wonder, “what the *** am I doing here? I want out.”

Strong sense of being in the wrong place, being in a situation that is not suitable for me as a person. Way too much conflict in my home (I’m naturally a conflict avoiding person). Spouse who comes from a hurtful background and after all these years still has a lot of trouble expressing her love (leaving me feeling sad and lonely).

I grew up thinking that mutual love would be enough to have a good and pleasant marriage. Turns out it isn’t.
 

If you are not happy and suffering, and not getting much from your wife and marriage, I would suggest you leave the marriage. You only live once. I wasted 20 years in mine.

[Will am I]

16 minutes ago, giotto said:

If you are not happy and suffering, and not getting much from your wife and marriage, I would suggest you leave the marriage. You only live once. I wasted 20 years in mine.

I seriously considered that. But it’s not only pain and suffering. Over the last weeks the situation has improved because I chose to become more intentional in my marriage and no longer accept the status quo.

My objective at this moment is to stay in the marriage.

[glows]

14 minutes ago, Will am I said:

I seriously considered that. But it’s not only pain and suffering. Over the last weeks the situation has improved because I chose to become more intentional in my marriage and no longer accept the status quo.

My objective at this moment is to stay in the marriage.

Try to keep working on releasing old grudges. Holding grudges will break down and destroy relationships no matter how much a couple tries.

[Will am I]

What I need to release old resentments is the words to express what hurt me and why. Plus my wife’s understanding when I do explain, and finally her excuse. Then I choose to forgive and leave behind.

I find it hard to express these old things. We actually went to two or three last night. Things that have hurt me quite deeply early on in the marriage, and I found my wife was pretty much oblivious to how they affected me. I don’t want to lecture my wife. But explaining why some event was so hurtful, it’s not easy.

[giotto]

49 minutes ago, Will am I said:

I seriously considered that. But it’s not only pain and suffering. Over the last weeks the situation has improved because I chose to become more intentional in my marriage and no longer accept the status quo.

My objective at this moment is to stay in the marriage.

If things are improving, then fine. But be careful because it's very easy to slip back into old habits after a while. And make sure your wife is not doing it to keep you there for the family.

[giotto]

7 minutes ago, Will am I said:

and I found my wife was pretty much oblivious to how they affected me.

I find it difficult to believe she didn't know... 

[glows]

8 minutes ago, Will am I said:

What I need to release old resentments is the words to express what hurt me and why. Plus my wife’s understanding when I do explain, and finally her excuse. Then I choose to forgive and leave behind.

I find it hard to express these old things. We actually went to two or three last night. Things that have hurt me quite deeply early on in the marriage, and I found my wife was pretty much oblivious to how they affected me. I don’t want to lecture my wife. But explaining why some event was so hurtful, it’s not easy.

I'd think that's very difficult also if you're anticipating (or have history of) the other person dismissing the way you feel. I'd also acknowledge somewhere in there that you understand there's nothing either of you can to do turn back time and change what happened. It's acceptance on your part also for staying with your wife, accountability that the marriage is 1/2 your responsibility and that it's been your decision 100% to stay in it. This means that when you disagreed with her the first time you failed to bring it to her attention or discuss all those issues, might they be issues, at a time or during a period where it would have been more appropriate to work things out or have gone your separate ways. 

Holding grudges indefinitely is passive aggressive, hugely destructive in relationships especially years after the fact. And I think it's manipulative too. My thoughts lean towards resolving issues quickly and trying your best to think the best of your partner or that your partner is doing their best. I read somewhere that the glue that often holds long term relationships together is in believing that your partner is doing their best. If you can't do that a divorce is long overdue. I wouldn't continue this any further even if you feel uncomfortable discussing past issues with her. No one deserves to keep rehashing the past, realizing that their marriage was a complete illusion and being made to feel terrible over past arguments or disagreements. 

I hope you both find resolution and do save the marriage. I'd caution continuously having these grudges or keep an eye on your discomfort or unease/inability to be open with your wife.

[Will am I]

1 minute ago, giotto said:

I find it difficult to believe she didn't know... 

How often we are just in our natural behaviour, “being ourselves”, “minding our own business” and end up hurting our spouses. 

It can be a brief moment, something said in anger. Something that didn’t seem significant to the one saying it, but is deeply hurtful to the one hearing it. We all have our own sensitivities.

[giotto]

46 minutes ago, Will am I said:

How often we are just in our natural behaviour, “being ourselves”, “minding our own business” and end up hurting our spouses. 

It can be a brief moment, something said in anger. Something that didn’t seem significant to the one saying it, but is deeply hurtful to the one hearing it. We all have our own sensitivities.

I guess, but how can you say something deeply hurtful to your husband and not even be aware of it? Anyway, I suppose every marriage has its own dynamics...

[Will am I]

A few of the old grudges come from situations early on in our relationship. Typical pattern: I would do something wrong, my girlfriend/fiancee/newlywed wife at the time would call me out on it. She had a bad temper sometimes in those days. Where she crossed the line is to not just attack the behaviour but also attack me as a person. Because she was right about confronting the behavour, I would at the time accept the fact that she yelled some nasty words at me. But later I would feel violated by the words that were aimed at me personally, and that would stick.

When I recall these moments now, she's more or less oblivious.

[giotto]

1 hour ago, Will am I said:

A few of the old grudges come from situations early on in our relationship. Typical pattern: I would do something wrong, my girlfriend/fiancee/newlywed wife at the time would call me out on it. She had a bad temper sometimes in those days. Where she crossed the line is to not just attack the behaviour but also attack me as a person. Because she was right about confronting the behavour, I would at the time accept the fact that she yelled some nasty words at me. But later I would feel violated by the words that were aimed at me personally, and that would stick.

When I recall these moments now, she's more or less oblivious.

ok, you never told her... if you are not told, you don't know. That said, yelling hurtful things and attacking you as a person is not acceptable in my book. But some people have a quick temper and tend to forget their attacks, because they consider them "normal". I am a bit like that. Sometimes I say hurtful things I don't mean, and then I forget... but not in a systemic way! 

[mark clemson]

A lot of couples apparently have communication issues to one degree or another. There is an entire industry (couples counseling) built in part around that.

You could consider CC (and framing it as a positive - to improve things, e.g. to improve communication between you, etc.).

If she no longer lashes out in this way, she may have little interest in bringing it back up to "hash out" at this late date.

[Will am I]

About lashing out: she’s softened over the years as the old patterns from her home faded and her confidence grew somewhat. The lashing out like in earlier days is no longer here. Those episodes are old.

The biggest culprit from more revent years has been living on autopilot. I had already emotionally retreated from many areas in our marriage and I guess we were both going through life minding our own business (and feeling lonely, at least I was).

This is were we recently made a big step. Instead of accepting the lonely existence one day at the time, we started committing to the marriage again. The vital step was to decide that I wouldn’t accept that situation anymore, I would either strive for a good marriage, or accept divorce. Continuing on the old foot was 3rd on my list. I also shared that decision with my wife, in the most loving way I could, but still it was a tough message to communicate.

I come to realize more and more how much I had missed my wife. Actually our marriage has become a pleasant place for me over the last weeks.

The only concern I have is that we both make a conscious effort and try harder. Time needs to prove how sustainable those efforts are. Either through practice they become an new nature or eventually we slide back in old patterns.

And sometimes I feel like a bully. I don’t want to force my wife into any efforts which she wouldn’t make on her own accord. Maybe I did, especially because of the EA. 

[Will am I]

Update, almost 6 weeks later.

Many of the behavioural patterns have slowly slid back to normal. 

I’m making some progress in the emotional preparation for a divorce. I’ve joined an online support group for men in/after divorce. This is not something I want to, it’s something I need to do; the scenario is very real and I need to be prepared.

This week my wife and I had a few conversations about what stands between each of us and our happiness, and about what’s holding us back to make one another happy. These are very constructive conversations, but we seem to be at a standoff. In the meantime my wife is still opposed to the idea of a divorce, although I’m putting the subject openly on the table.

Couples counseling starts next Tuesday. 
I’m planning to be the perfect husband for a month and see if my wife moves in my direction too. If I don’t see any movement at all, I guess I should conclude that the marriage has died.

Deep down I pretty much know where this is headed, but I need to walk down this path diligently. I feel that diligence in the final act will make it easier to find closure.

 

[vla1120]

13 hours ago, Will am I said:

Couples counseling starts next Tuesday. 
I’m planning to be the perfect husband for a month and see if my wife moves in my direction too. If I don’t see any movement at all, I guess I should conclude that the marriage has died.

Deep down I pretty much know where this is headed, but I need to walk down this path diligently. I feel that diligence in the final act will make it easier to find closure.

I am sorry you're facing this difficulty. I give you a lot of credit for taking all the steps you've taken to help your marriage. After all the effort you've put forth, if it is not being met with the same enthusiasm and willingness to work at it by your wife, at least you can find comfort in knowing you did everything you could. 

[Will am I]

Thanks a lot.

What you mention at the end is very central in my motivations: I will only walk away from the marriage if I can find some comfort and closure in knowing that I gave it my best shot. 

We’re not done yet. Counseling starts on tuesday. I’m hopeful that I can get through with the help with the counselor, and vice versa. My wife doesn’t want a divorce at all, neither am I a big fan of that outcome (although I’m much more prepared for it).

Right now I don’t see the start of the turnaround that I’m looking for. But there is still a chance.

 

[giotto]

What is holding your wife back from happiness?

[mark clemson]

I think it's wise to give it your genuine best efforts to salvage things. IF it doesn't pan out, at least you will know that you really tried and thus can minimize any lingering doubts/what if's in your mind. Also if you're unhappy with your therapist don't hesitate to change them. A small, but real, % are weirdos or have agendas of some kind. Presumably you will get a good one, but that's something to be aware of just in case.

[Will am I]

Thank you to you who take an interest.

It’s a rough patch, no denying that. What makes it rough is that I don’t know what my life will be like in a year.

Yet I am positive.

I think the biggest trigger why I started to doubt my marriage more, is not that it deteriorated. Let me notice that the doubts started increasing after I got past the age of 40. For me that represents the moment I started connecting better to my arc of life. Instead of only being “29 year old me” or “38 year old me” I developed the ability to experience life from different age perspectives. Both looking ahead at the more distant future as well as looking at the situation through the eyes of a younger me. 

The painful conclusion of these new angles is that I didn’t want to keep running the same track for the rest of my life.

The positive perspective is that by rejecting the continuation of the status quo, I only have to gain. It’s either going to be a better marriage, or if we can’t work it out it will be a divorce and presumably a subsequent second marriage which should be more compatible. Writing this is sort or counter intuitive but I know deep down that either scenario is better in the long run.

I am confident that I’d be able to build something good, regardless whether we turn right or turn left. I’m relieved that I’ve been able to stir things up and start to close the “straight ahead” option. 

 

[Weezy1973]

On 7/9/2022 at 6:40 AM, Will am I said:

This week my wife and I had a few conversations about what stands between each of us and our happiness, and about what’s holding us back to make one another happy.

It’s not your wife’s job to make you happy, nor is her happiness your responsibility. That mindset will inevitably be the downfall of all marriages as it’s an unrealistic expectation. 

 

On 7/9/2022 at 6:40 AM, Will am I said:

I’m planning to be the perfect husband for a month and see if my wife moves in my direction too.

Who’s version of “perfect” are you using? Yours or hers? And why are you just doing this now instead of all along?

[Will am I]

Agree about how happiness is everyone’s own responsibility. But of course as a spouse you can make an effort to please your spouse and help them feel happy. Or you can hold back on that.

As for being “mr. perfect”, making an extra effort to align my behavior with the way she likes it best.

Why not permanently? Because it’s extra effort. Running instead of walking. Further out of my comfort zone.