Who's Responsible?

[mark clemson]

@DingDang –

You seem to want to say that “Once the WS betrays their partner, they alone are responsible for what ensues due to the betrayal.”

While I tend to not address this point in BS’s threads due to respect for the distress they are in, this is actually NOT logically correct. While the WS may be responsible for making the BS feel e.g. very angry or sad, the BS is still fully responsible for their own actions.

To take an extreme (but still applicable) example – let’s say a BS, upon a Dday, takes an extreme and completely untoward action such as burning the house down or shooting someone.

Would you say the WS is responsible for arson or murder? Of course not – no fair and reasonable court would. The same logic actually applies to any action the BS takes. It’s their action. So if the BS decides to shun the WS or insist they leave the house, etc – that’s their responsibility. We don’t blame people for taking strong actions in response to distress (within reason). But that by no means changes the actual logic of who’s responsible.

If you want to say that because of the emotions involved, the WS is responsible for the BS’s actions, then logically you have to also go the other way: the BS can now be held responsible for the WS’s actions. In that case, the WS is perfectly justified in claiming the BS bears partial responsibility for their cheating. They made the WS unhappy in the marriage and 50% are responsible for that. That’s just logic (applied fairly to both). I’m not one who subscribes to this view. Perhaps you are, but then the logical consequence is as I’ve described.

The bottom line, and something some BSs seem to miss, is that when the WS is held responsible for their actions (e.g. cheating), the BS therefore must logically be held responsible for their own actions in response to discovery as well. To do otherwise is a double-standard, plain and simple.

[chillii]

But also understandable , bc it's the lowest form of anything a partner can do to their spouse , and there's no damn excuse . They could've talked over the marriage situation yrs before , and tried to work it out , given their life's partner notice , and a chance , given both of them a chance and their children, or at least time for everyone to adjust and come to terms with it. But too often there's nothing , l'm leaving, or l've left, it's been dead for them yrs well ok , so why didn't they have the guts to talk to their partner about that yrs ago then.

So right or wrong , you'll never know such pain in another form and what , they're suppose to be all calm collected. l dunno about blame , but it's understandable nonetheless.

Edited August 20, 2021 by chillii

[basil67]

@Chilli  You're working on the assumption that the betrayed partner is never aware that their spouse was so miserable.  Sure, sometimes they don't know, but other times they very much know.   

My sister had a leap frog affair which got her out of an abusive marriage and we supported her every step of the way.   She asked for counselling, but he'd change only until they got back out of counselling.  He was also diagnosed with a mental illness but wasn't compliant with his meds. Her ex-h had beaten down her self esteem so badly, that she didn't have the courage to leave.   As it turned out, he turned his abuse to their eldest child at just the same time as she met the OM and within six weeks, she'd walked out with the kids.   I will maintain that she every "excuse" to do what she needed to do to get her out of there.  As it turned out, the new guy was a great guy and they've been very happily married for many years now. 

As to the example which @mark clemson gave, her ex-h later attempted murder (by arson)  on my parents for their role in supporting her to leave him.  Our family holds her ex husband completely responsible for his actions.  

 This isn't a black and white argument.

Edited August 20, 2021 by basil67

[mark clemson]

^^ while the points I was making were specific to the logic of "responsibility for actions" I think you both made good points, and very much appreciate your contributions!

[DKT3]

Responsible yes, but to what degree?

The example you gave is loaded,  right? 

A Texas wife runs her husband over with her car upon catching him involved with another woman, back up over him and did it again and again,  5 year sentence 

An Indiana man goes to a party looking for his wife, he was told she was last seen heading towards the bedrooms. He walks in on her having sex, he quietly leaves and returns later and guns down his wife and her lover. 15 year sentence changed to 5 years in a mental health facility. 

The trauma of these things change people,  and things they would have never otherwise done become reality 

 

[DingDang]

23 hours ago, mark clemson said:

@DingDang –

You seem to want to say that “Once the WS betrays their partner, they alone are responsible for what ensues due to the betrayal.”

While I tend to not address this point in BS’s threads due to respect for the distress they are in, this is actually NOT logically correct. While the WS may be responsible for making the BS feel e.g. very angry or sad, the BS is still fully responsible for their own actions.

To take an extreme (but still applicable) example – let’s say a BS, upon a Dday, takes an extreme and completely untoward action such as burning the house down or shooting someone.

Would you say the WS is responsible for arson or murder? Of course not – no fair and reasonable court would. The same logic actually applies to any action the BS takes. It’s their action. So if the BS decides to shun the WS or insist they leave the house, etc – that’s their responsibility. We don’t blame people for taking strong actions in response to distress (within reason). But that by no means changes the actual logic of who’s responsible.

If you want to say that because of the emotions involved, the WS is responsible for the BS’s actions, then logically you have to also go the other way: the BS can now be held responsible for the WS’s actions. In that case, the WS is perfectly justified in claiming the BS bears partial responsibility for their cheating. They made the WS unhappy in the marriage and 50% are responsible for that. That’s just logic (applied fairly to both). I’m not one who subscribes to this view. Perhaps you are, but then the logical consequence is as I’ve described.

The bottom line, and something some BSs seem to miss, is that when the WS is held responsible for their actions (e.g. cheating), the BS therefore must logically be held responsible for their own actions in response to discovery as well. To do otherwise is a double-standard, plain and simple.

Of course the BS is responsible for their own actions. The WS is responsible for the emotional havoc that they brought to the relationship by betraying their spouse. I never said that the BS is not responsible for THEIR OWN bad behavior. You don't get to do whatever the heck you want just because you're pissed. I am ALL about each person owning their stuff. 

It sure does seem like you're being deliberately obtuse. 

My original post, which has been removed by the mods because it strayed off topic, is that the BS is not responsible for their WS straying. Choosing to cheat is 100% on the WS. The BS never, ever does anything that causes their WS to cheat. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by DingDang

[basil67]

5 hours ago, DKT3 said:

 

The trauma of these things change people,  and things they would have never otherwise done become reality 

 

Is there any credible research to show that this type of reaction happens to people who’ve never been a vengeful type?  Or that it’s even statistically significant? 

[mark clemson]

6 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Responsible yes, but to what degree?

The trauma of these things change people,  and things they would have never otherwise done become reality

I think that CAN be true, but that would a question be for psychiatrists to evaluate on a case-by-case basis. Distress is not an excuse or we can excuse all kinds of stuff, and I think courts recognize that generally. A person can be traumatized by divorce as well and indeed some people kill their spouse for leaving them (generally abusers, but no doubt the "trauma" triggers this in rare cases for people who were not abusers as well).

The extreme cases were given to illustrate the general point. No one (IMO) "blames" a BS for divorcing due to their distress. But it's still their choice.

I doubt we actually disagree on much (possibly any) of this? If that's correct, no real need for hair splitting on unusual corner cases.

[Cookiesandough]

6 hours ago, DKT3 said:

 

An Indiana man goes to a party looking for his wife, he was told she was last seen heading towards the bedrooms. He walks in on her having sex, he quietly leaves and returns later and guns down his wife and her lover. 15 year sentence changed to 5 years in a mental health facility. 

 

 

That sounds like something an Indiana man would do

Edited August 20, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, DingDang said:

I never said that the BS is not responsible for THEIR OWN bad behavior.

It sure does seem like you're being deliberately obtuse. 

My original post, which has been removed by the mods because it strayed off topic, is that the BS is not responsible for their WS straying. Choosing to cheat is 100% on the WS. The BS never, ever does anything that causes their WS to cheat. 

I'm certainly not being deliberately obtuse. Your original original post, which I apparently misunderstood as well, seems rather pointedly to place blame on the BS and only them. It's also somewhat vague on specifics so I'm going to go ahead and forgive myself for misunderstanding it.

I'm glad you see the reasonableness of apportioning responsibility appropriately.

 

On 8/19/2021 at 7:23 AM, DingDang said:

Really, the problem is always with the person who chooses betrayal over honesty. 

[Alpacalia]

Not sure what all these terms mean but both are responsible for the act of cheating in and of itself. The cheater and the person they're cheating with (assuming they're aware of course).

Is that what you mean?

Edited August 20, 2021 by Alpaca

[Cookiesandough]

If it means that because a person is betrayed it gives them moral license to act in whatever crazy way they choose, then no. You were wronged but you’re still acting crazy