Ugly thoughts

[Mrin]

I need to get some things off of my chest.

Issue: I live in the US. My county has a 70+% vaccination rate. My town just mandated masks again. Schools will be masked. The county is already drafting new social distancing rules which will include things like capping capacity at restaurants etc...

My Perspective: I had Covid back in March of 2020. I was one of the lucky first people in the US to have it. I was pulled into a study and had my long term antibodies monitored for 14 months until I got the Pfizer vaccine this May. Got both shots. Prior to vaccinations being readily available, I had zero problem with masks and social distancing rules. In fact, I was sort of a mask and social distancing nazi being someone who already had gone through Covid. Covid killed people I knew. So up until now, I have had zero resentment or pushback to mask and social distancing rules. 

My Rant: But let me be clear right now, I think it is utter and complete bull crap that we're going back to mask and social distancing rules. Vaccinations are so readily available in the US that I could gargle with the stuff practically. You can't swing a dead cat in this town without someone wanting to pay you to get vaccinated. Yes, I know vaccinated people can catch and transmit the delta variant. But, I also know that if you've fully vaccinated, the incidence of severe symptoms drops incredibly low and the incidence of death isn't even statistically significant. The simple truth is, if you're fully vaccinated, Covid (Delta or otherwise) is about as scary as a head cold statistically speaking. And you don't see us moving heaven and earth to prevent head colds, much less influenza. 

The only reason Covid (Delta) is a big deal is because the ICUs and morgues are filling up with unvaccinated Covid victims. Look, my heart goes out to them. Heck, I just had a friend of a friend die of it yesterday (80's, fighting off cancer and diabetes). But - the unvaccinated had their chance. They still have it. But they choose not to get vaccinated. Look, I am very close to someone who is adamantly anti-vax and won't ever get the jab. And I'm also someone who as strong as I feel about vaccinations, I think it is up to everyone to decide for themselves. If they don't want to get it - fine. 

But, I have a real problem taking a step or three back into the pandemic to protect those who won't protect themselves. If they want to risk it, more power to them. But we, as a society, shouldn't have to curtail our lives to protect them from their decisions. I see it as akin to riding a motorcycle without a helmet. A very, very stupid choice in my opinion. But - if they want to ride without a helmet and risk a TBI or death, we let them do it. Same thing here - you have you chance to make Covid a non-issue and you didn't take it and still refuse to take it. Don't make the rest of us pay for your decisions by having to go into another prolonged period of social distancing and masks to protect you from yourself.

Okay, I just had to get that off my chest. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Title

[basil67]

Disclaimer:  My country is a long way behind yours in terms of vaccinations, and Delta is brand new on our shores so I am speaking from a place of less experience than yours.  

On top of what you mentioned about being able to manage hospital and morgue capacity, it's also about protecting those who can't have a vaccine and those who are too young to have a vaccine and being able to manage hospital capacity.   Though rather than penalising those who have been vaccinated with more restrictions, I'd be more in favour of allowing unlimited patrons in venues providing they all have evidence of being vaccinated.  

Also, motorcycle helmets are mandatory here...so we can't use your comparison.   

 

 

[Alpacalia]

My sister just contracted it and she refused to take the vaccine for non-medical reasons. 

Didn't wear a mask.

And she was constantly around other people.

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Alpaca

[Wiseman2]

I don't feel my personal freedom is infringed upon by wearing a mask. Especially with Delta on the rise.

Unfortunately masks have become some sort of political statement rather than an infections disease precaution.

It sucks, but adaptability is important for survival.

[Mrin]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

I don't feel my personal freedom is infringed upon by wearing a mask

It is more of an annoyance for me. I don't buy into the politicization of it and happily wore a mask and socially distanced during the pandemic.

But now it is more like "why the hell am I being inconvenienced to protect people who won't even protect themselves and honestly, are the first people to rebel against these protections (mask and social distancing). If that's how they feel, why should I change even one bit of my behavior"

Like I said - ugly thoughts. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Mrin

[Wiseman2]

2 minutes ago, Mrin said:

 "why the hell am I being inconvenienced to protect people who won't even protect themselves.

It's to protect yourself. Do what's right for you.  You had Covid and the vaccine, so you're probably pretty free and clear.

Keep in mind, Covid is a different kind of animal than viruses for which vaccines confer lifetime or longstanding immunity.

Not sure anyone knows where this thing is headed. I personally don't think it's some sort of extinction level event, but I do wish things were more "normal".

[Angelle]

I understand how you feel, but some of us had to put off getting the vaccine (and I can now get my second shot in a week), and there are so many kids that can't be vaccinated yet. 

I'm also angry at those spreading misinformation, who also refuse to wear masks, even though they won't get vaccinated. They won't do anything to stop the spread. I've probably lost another friend, this past weekend, because I'd had enough, and so had she - we've argued twice in the last six weeks, and the last time was a huge one. I don't want her to get sick, but I'm no longer thinking about people like her - I'm thinking about those who can't be vaccinated, including the kids. 

[elaine567]

The bottom line is that the vaccines are just not good enough to allow us all to go back to "normal".
The virus has not mutated itself into obscurity as predicted by some virologists early doors, it has got stronger in some ways, and has the bit between its teeth.
Our globally orientated and densely populated world, dependent on capitalism, has allowed the virus free rein.

The UK at the moment is a potential virus factory for mutant strains.
High case numbers and few restrictions is a scenario playing straight into the virus's hands.

Viruses don't care a damn about our wishes to get back to "normality", they see paths to spread far and wide and they say "Thank you very much."

Forget about the unvaccinated, the vaccinated are also at some  risk. No vaccine is 100% and these coronavirus vaccines are not "sterilising" vaccines, nor are they long lasting.  
"Herd immunity" is thought now to be a non starter.
Getting back to the old normal is not yet an option for us unfortunately.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/picture-shifting-vaccines-transmission-re-shaping-learn-live/
 

[Mrin]

6 hours ago, elaine567 said:

The UK at the moment is a potential virus factory for mutant strains.
High case numbers and few restrictions is a scenario playing straight into the virus's hands.

See, this is the only reason that my ugly thoughts aren't my ugly actions (e.g. noncompliance with mask and social distancing rules). Ha. Ya, even though vaccinations reduce the lethality of the current strains of Covid to head cold level, as long as we're continuing to pass it around it will continue to mutate and eventually it might mutate into something where the lethality goes back up for vaccinated folks. I keep telling myself.

[introverted1]

12 hours ago, Mrin said:

It is more of an annoyance for me. I don't buy into the politicization of it and happily wore a mask and socially distanced during the pandemic.

But now it is more like "why the hell am I being inconvenienced to protect people who won't even protect themselves and honestly, are the first people to rebel against these protections (mask and social distancing). If that's how they feel, why should I change even one bit of my behavior"

Like I said - ugly thoughts. 

• Vaccinated people can transmit the virus.
• Efficacy of the mRNA vaccines drops significantly over time, so protection for those who are vaxxed is at varying levels.
• The number of fully vaxxed people who have been hospitalised is on the rise.
• Some people cannot be vaccinated, including children under 13.
• Wearing a mask is a simple way to reduce harm.

[GeorgiaPeach1]

22 hours ago, Mrin said:

I need to get some things off of my chest.

Issue: I live in the US. My county has a 70+% vaccination rate. My town just mandated masks again. Schools will be masked. The county is already drafting new social distancing rules which will include things like capping capacity at restaurants etc...

My Perspective: I had Covid back in March of 2020. I was one of the lucky first people in the US to have it. I was pulled into a study and had my long term antibodies monitored for 14 months until I got the Pfizer vaccine this May. Got both shots. Prior to vaccinations being readily available, I had zero problem with masks and social distancing rules. In fact, I was sort of a mask and social distancing nazi being someone who already had gone through Covid. Covid killed people I knew. So up until now, I have had zero resentment or pushback to mask and social distancing rules. 

My Rant: But let me be clear right now, I think it is utter and complete bull crap that we're going back to mask and social distancing rules. Vaccinations are so readily available in the US that I could gargle with the stuff practically. You can't swing a dead cat in this town without someone wanting to pay you to get vaccinated. Yes, I know vaccinated people can catch and transmit the delta variant. But, I also know that if you've fully vaccinated, the incidence of severe symptoms drops incredibly low and the incidence of death isn't even statistically significant. The simple truth is, if you're fully vaccinated, Covid (Delta or otherwise) is about as scary as a head cold statistically speaking. And you don't see us moving heaven and earth to prevent head colds, much less influenza. 

The only reason Covid (Delta) is a big deal is because the ICUs and morgues are filling up with unvaccinated Covid victims. Look, my heart goes out to them. Heck, I just had a friend of a friend die of it yesterday (80's, fighting off cancer and diabetes). But - the unvaccinated had their chance. They still have it. But they choose not to get vaccinated. Look, I am very close to someone who is adamantly anti-vax and won't ever get the jab. And I'm also someone who as strong as I feel about vaccinations, I think it is up to everyone to decide for themselves. If they don't want to get it - fine. 

But, I have a real problem taking a step or three back into the pandemic to protect those who won't protect themselves. If they want to risk it, more power to them. But we, as a society, shouldn't have to curtail our lives to protect them from their decisions. I see it as akin to riding a motorcycle without a helmet. A very, very stupid choice in my opinion. But - if they want to ride without a helmet and risk a TBI or death, we let them do it. Same thing here - you have you chance to make Covid a non-issue and you didn't take it and still refuse to take it. Don't make the rest of us pay for your decisions by having to go into another prolonged period of social distancing and masks to protect you from yourself.

Okay, I just had to get that off my chest. 

I am fully vaccinated as well, but what about households with children under 12 who are not eligible for the vaccine? What about people who had a reaction the the first shot, and are medically unable to get the second dose? Believe it or not, there are other people to consider besides ourselves.

[serial muse]

I have a child under 12. I am fully vaccinated, my husband is fully vaccinated, I have been draconian about our safety for going on 18 months now and I am furious with people who think this is over and aren't willing to do their utmost for others.

I won't type all the things I'm feeling about this right now because my hands are shaking, I'm so angry. We did everything right, and it's because of those who didn't that we're still in this place. I'm furious at those people, and yet I still wear masks for others' protection. My fury is irrelevant. My feelings are irrelevant. Reason is what matters.

I get that people are tired of wearing a mask, but that's a terrible reason to stop doing the right thing. So is sticking one's head in the sand that covid is going away. It's not. If we don't get a grip on it soon, other variants will emerge and spread that may be less responsive to the vaccine. This is no time to just throw up one's hands. Anything that people can do to slow its spread and also forestall the rapid emergence of other variants, should be done. Full stop. Nothing else is reasonable. 

My kid's in danger and he can't get a vaccine. Please continue to mask up. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by serial muse

[Woggle]

I really do not want this to be a new permanent normal. If more people did the right thing this could have been over sooner.

[mark clemson]

Realistic (not ugly) thought #1:

Without some significant advance in medical tech, the virus will spread regardless. The vaccines are great (and frankly we're very lucky they worked as well as they do and were developed in such a short timeframe). However they wear off over time. Also even vaccinated people spread the virus (albeit I have heard they are less infectious).

This means that (barring major advances) whatever we do the virus will spread. Those with significant vulnerability (ie, genetics or advanced age/weakened immune systems) who decide not to vaccinate AND get boosters shots or take substantial precautions will die if they don't get significant medical help. Eventually the government won't cover the treatments and probably insurers won't either. There will be those who can resist a COVID infection at 75 and those who can't.

This is actually a perfectly natural process (if tragic for those affected). In the short term, nothing we do short of the sorts of draconian measures that most democracies tend to find difficult to implement are going to stop it. Furthermore, one cannot assume the level of medical technology we have today will persist for centuries. Things change. In the long term, therefore, eventually all the persons left will be "immune enough" that we give this little more thought than we do to the flu.

[mark clemson]

Realistic (not ugly) thought #2:

The current virus kills about 2% of people. It MAY happen that a much more deadly strain, that kills perhaps 20% or more of people who get it emerges. IF that happens, staying vaccinated (e.g. with booster shots) might be one way to protect yourself via cross-strain resistance. It might, conceivably, make the difference between having a crappy week and catching a deadly disease at a time when hospitals are too overwhelmed to provide medical care beyond palliative for most victims.

[mark clemson]

Realistic (not ugly) thought #3:

While it's easy for some to feel frustrated with anti-vaxxers/anti-maskers, I suspect that, from a species perspective, it is likely a feature, not a bug. The mistrust of authorities and "need" for self-determination even to the point of buying into fictions might seem paranoid (and indeed are IMO in the particular case). However it's also true that history has proven again and again that sometimes the government really is "out to get you" - Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc, etc.

So this kind of paranoia may be a way that our species "hedges its bets" against other people actually wanting to kill you, etc. Sometimes the people who "resist" are more likely to get killed, sometimes the people who "play along" are more likely to get killed. Either way, someone survives to propagate the group that is under threat.

[Foxhall]

Yes different things bother different people about it,

I did not enjoy the lockdowns and so on that we had up until a few months ago,

Funnily enough no problem really with masks or social distance- a bit of space from people not having them too close to me- I kind of like that!!

[spiderowl]

18 hours ago, Mrin said:

It is more of an annoyance for me. I don't buy into the politicization of it and happily wore a mask and socially distanced during the pandemic.

But now it is more like "why the hell am I being inconvenienced to protect people who won't even protect themselves and honestly, are the first people to rebel against these protections (mask and social distancing). If that's how they feel, why should I change even one bit of my behavior"

Like I said - ugly thoughts. 

I completely understand your annoyance at feeling you are having to wear a mask to protect those who don't want to protect themselves.  Until the country is virtually 100% vaccinated, there are still a lot of people at risk.  In the US, younger people are now at risk because very few are vaccinated.

There is also a category of people who are not vaccinated for reasons other than anti-vaxx sentiments: people who are worried about being vaccinated because of allergies, immune problems, and so on.  They are still vulnerable too.  It's not fun having to social distance and wear a mask but until all those who could be vaccinated are, we are in an intermediate state.  Childhood vaccines usually work and it is rare for children or adults to get certain viruses or bacterial infections because they were vaccinated as children.  The majority of people were vaccinated which is why these are rare.  We need to get to that stage where it is rare for someone to be unvaccinated before we can throw away the meagre protection of the mask.

I don't have much sympathy for anti-vaxxers.  I lost immediate family to Covid and my and their family's lives are changed for ever now.  I can see that some are uncertain, some fall for anti-vaxx propaganda stories, and others are basically attention seeking.  Some just keep putting it off for no obvious reason.  We are dealing with a mixed bag of reasons why people are not taking up vaccinations.

I think in a few months we will be closer to the goal of having most of the population vaccinated.  Until then, we still need to be cautious.

[Wiseman2]

9 hours ago, mark clemson said:

that sometimes the government really is "out to get you" - Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc, etc.

That's weird because everyone lined up for polio and other vaccines without the paranoia.

Vaccination protocols became the standard of care.

People in developing countries were still striving for help with infectious diseases. (But then again they've got more important things to do than be on twitter all day, such as just surviving)

In fact, the WHO eradicated many infectious diseases and suffering with worldwide vaccinations.

[Timshel]

Every person in my family is fully vaccinated, except my 18 yr. old son. He refuses to get it; he is convinced that it is more harmful to him than exposure to Covid. We have had multiple conversations with the last one essentially pleading with him but to no avail, he will not budge. My husband has warned me to let it go and he is right, I have no choice.

To say the least, this has opened my eyes a bit wider to the nuance of reasoning for people who choose not to be vaccinated. I was dismissive and in truth thought rather lowly of those who will not. Now, this isn't about us vs. them for me; I am very worried for my son who is a very loving, intelligent human being.

Covid is something we all have to get through together, this is not easy or straightforward for many families.

[Timshel]

 I was raised in science. I ate, crapped and breathed science. The rule is that 'we know nothing, nothing is fact.' We certainly know very little about Coronavirus and the vaccines. There is no possible way that we could.  It is the scientific premise that nothing is fact/is the very impetus of science.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
removed reference to hidden content.

[mark clemson]

14 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

That's weird because everyone lined up for polio and other vaccines without the paranoia.

In fact, the WHO eradicated many infectious diseases and suffering with worldwide vaccinations.

That latter part is true. However, vaccine hesitancy (and paranoia about the government and/or gov't overreach generally) is hardly new.

An internet search will show you that there were e.g. anti-maskers during the 1918 flu pandemic, anti-vaccination riots in 1885 regarding smallpox vaccine, and probably other more obscure incidents. Anti-vaxxers have always been out there. There were certainly out there prior to COVID, I saw a group of them "protesting" at the 2018 Comic-Con. Jenny McCarthy, etc.

For the WHO large-scale campaigns, there where were essentially marketing campaigns by governments to overcome vaccine hesitancy on the part of some, even e.g. for polio (which had disabled enough children to be very high in public consciousness.) There was even resistance to adding fluoride to drinking water (and still is for some). Without concerted efforts to change people's minds and codification into law, it's unclear whether these disease eliminations would have been successful just on "willingness" alone. IMO it would have been unlikely.

However I think what you're noting is that the internet and SM have given some a platform to present counter-arguments (often using distorted reasoning IMO, and in some case outright paranoid lies) to the prevailing medical reasoning and/or gov't marketing campaigns. So THAT is relatively new and probably increasing hesitancy.  [ ] 

Edited August 13, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
removed comments about politics

[Woggle]

I am the last person who you would call smug and elitist but I admit I have had it up to here with people who are holding society back in order to prove god knows what point. You had some pockets but by and large people did not act like this when it came to Polio or TB.

[central]

The unvaccinated provide reservoirs where the virus can spread, and potentially mutate into a version more infectious and more deadly, so that even vaccinated people are at risk.  And even fully vaccinated people are not all protected - there is 5% for whom it's less effective.  They still have some protection, but can get seriously sick and perhaps die.  Frankly, I don't care if those refusing the vaccine get sick and die, except that they put everyone else at risk as well.

[Taramere]

Mask wearing is still supposed to be mandatory in shops, but lately pretty much every time I go shopping there's at least one person who is maskless.  I know there are people who have exemption due to health issues, but it seems that almost invariably the ones who are maskless are also ignoring social distancing guidance. A checkout assistant was telling me recently that a couple of maskless women were really abusive to him recently (over a non Covid/mask/distancing related issue) and we were basically having a conversation about how notable it is that the people who pick fights with service workers and other customers invariably seem to be people who aren't wearing masks.  Whatever health issues there are that genuinely preclude people from wearing masks, do they also make people extra testy when they go shopping?  

(Redacted)

Edited August 18, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Group berating