Toxic positivity

[Alpacalia]

13 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

I agree... As an example, my mother has arthritis and has pain from time to time.  Instead of asking her "How is she doing??" or some sunshine/happiness/"look on the bright side comment", I've scoured the internet looking for homeopathic or over the counter creams/medicines to help her.

I've drop shipped (to her) many different items and I stumbled across one that seems to help a little bit more than the others.

I think (if we really care about the other person) we should go the extra mile, to assist them by suggesting something that might actually help vs. some flowery "tomorrow will be a better day" comment/post.

I imagine one could post/say "I wanted to acknowledge your post/statement. I don't have anything constructive to add, but I'm here and will listen, if you need to talk"

That's very thoughtful of you.

I appreciate the last bit about realizing that less fortunate situations can make us feel uncomfortable, so perhaps something as simple as "you know what, that really stinks" is healthier to shutting down any so-called "negative" emotion.

[elaine567]

16 hours ago, Prudence V said:

’m sure Andi has tried to “walk more like a man” so he doesn’t get beaten up for “being gay” and Glen has used positive thinking to move the baggage stored in the wheelchair space on the train, and I know Linzi has tried thinking herself out of her bipolar many times… but sometimes what people need is an acknowledgement that struggles are real. 

The problem being that unless they are gay, disabled or Bipolar themselves, it is difficult for a lot of people to really understand the challenges faced, and some of those "afflicted" can be pretty prickly when offered help or sympathy.
So it can be a lot easier to introduce distance with a sunshiny comment, than get too involved.
Also life can be very tough for even the most outwardly "successful", so they may not really want to immerse themselves in the problems of others, so they gloss over everything with cheery messages and uplifting sayings. rather than get overwhelmed themselves with the trials and tribulations of others.

I also think there is a general feeling that everyone should be happy and just get on with it in life, so when people express their pain, distress or unhappiness, many feel uncomfortable and are lost for words, so out comes all the spirit lifting rhetoric we all know so well.
 

[hotpotato]

I have complained about toxic positivity on this board. Like others said, it's very dismissive.  One post was quite ridiculous. My mom used to call me a prostitute when i was a kid. This person said I shouldn't complain because at she didn't sell me into prostitution. Wat!  I think lurking beneath toxic positivity is the idea that if you dont have the worst experience ever on planet earth then you have no right to complain. People should be able to express a wide range of emotions and not be forced to "look on the bright side."

 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by hotpotato

[Prudence V]

7 hours ago, Uruktopi said:

An optimist, a pessimist, and an engineer walk into a bar and there is a glass that is half filled.

The optimist says: “The glass is half full”

The pessimist says: “The glass is half empty”

The engineer says: “The glass is two times too big”

The scientist says: “The glass is full. Half with liquid, half with air.”

[Wiseman2]

10 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

The scientist says: “The glass is full. Half with liquid, half with air.”

Don't worry, be happy 🙂

[Uruktopi]

2 hours ago, Prudence V said:

The scientist says: “The glass is full. Half with liquid, half with air.”

...and the scientist is right.

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

Don't worry, be happy 🙂

Yeah!

[Fletch Lives]

22 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

I agree... As an example, my mother has arthritis and has pain from time to time.  Instead of asking her "How is she doing??" or some sunshine/happiness/"look on the bright side comment", I've scoured the internet looking for homeopathic or over the counter creams/medicines to help her.

I've drop shipped (to her) many different items and I stumbled across one that seems to help a little bit more than the others.

I think (if we really care about the other person) we should go the extra mile, to assist them by suggesting something that might actually help vs. some flowery "tomorrow will be a better day" comment/post.

I imagine one could post/say "I wanted to acknowledge your post/statement. I don't have anything constructive to add, but I'm here and will listen, if you need to talk"

I've seen a gluten free diet cure arthritis.

[Uruktopi]

12 minutes ago, Fletch Lives said:

I've seen a gluten free diet cure arthritis.

True but only if gluten intolerance is the origin of the arthitis and there are others.

When uric acid is involved, tea made of dried advocado leaves may help.

And medical docs should have the last word about in any case. 

 

[Taramere]

Obviously there's certain situations where positive thinking can achieve really noticeable results...and I think that's particularly true in sport where approaching a goal (whether it's hitting or kicking a ball to a particular point on a court/pitch, clearing a jump or running just that bit faster) will help you to accomplish that goal where negative thinking would increase the likelihood of failure.  I agree, though, that it can be dangerous for people to take the notion of positive thinking to a place where they expect it to accomplish miracles, heal sickness etc.  Or using it in a "snap out of your depression" way.  

 

[Uruktopi]

10 minutes ago, Taramere said:

Obviously there's certain situations where positive thinking can achieve really noticeable results...and I think that's particularly true in sport where approaching a goal (whether it's hitting or kicking a ball to a particular point on a court/pitch, clearing a jump or running just that bit faster) will help you to accomplish that goal where negative thinking would increase the likelihood of failure.  I agree, though, that it can be dangerous for people to take the notion of positive thinking to a place where they expect it to accomplish miracles, heal sickness etc.  Or using it in a "snap out of your depression" way.  

 

Such kind of "goal oriented" images are linked with the neurological "what if / predictive" mechanism. The "visual side" of them are the emergent and secondary correlate of a wider "getting in focus" that help to coordinate our perceptions of the enviroment whith our synesthesia for a better muscular coordination.

Nothing magical / mistical at all.

  

[Cookiesandough]

4 minutes ago, Uruktopi said:

Such kind of "goal oriented" images are linked with the neurological "what if / predictive" mechanism. The "visual side" of them are the emergent and secondary correlate of a wider "getting in focus" that help to coordinate our perceptions of the enviroment whith our synesthesia for a better muscular coordination.

Nothing magical / mistical at all.

  

🤯

[Uruktopi]

3 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

🤯

LOL!

Your answer made my day!

[SumGuy]

On 6/29/2021 at 10:01 AM, Prudence V said:

I have several friends who have chronic health conditions, disabilities, or very challenging circumstances. Many of them have stopped posting about their challenges on SM because of “toxic positivity” responses - I’m sure you know the kind of thing, about “looking on the bright side”, “not dwelling on misery”, etc. As though they can just mindset themselves into a rose-tinted world where everything is easy. 

It can be a fine line between someone trying to provide a positive comment, a positive view, and discounting or minimizing another's experience.  As it can be a fine line between a giving advice on how to avoid injustice and it seeming like one is not seeing or excusing the injustice.  Just abroad view here, not excusing things.

"Looking on the bright side" may help people feel a ray of sunshine...it may be an attempt at dark humor..it may be tone deaf.

"Not dwelling on misery" has a whole host of ways it is meant well and others where it is oblivious, although inelegant it is an idea in grief counseling.  Context matters though, is it really dwelling on misery in an unproductive manner, or is the person asking you to ignore great loss or  injustice when they say don't dwell on it.

Thing is to me with these words, they have valid helpful uses and are also used by people to dismiss or diminish others.   Specifics, facts, and context matter...as well as the speakers direct experience.

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My view is, no one should have to self-censor in this way, and if people are insensitive enough to comment on your FB post telling you to think yourself better from your disability or belittling your experience of racism because their ethnicity has never exposed them to racism, etc, you’re better off muting/blocking them. I’m sure Andi has tried to “walk more like a man” so he doesn’t get beaten up for “being gay” and Glen has used positive thinking to move the baggage stored in the wheelchair space on the train, and I know Linzi has tried thinking herself out of her bipolar many times… but sometimes what people need is an acknowledgement that struggles are real. 

Agreed no one should have to self censor in this way.   

So true if you post things to the wide world, all the a**hats are going to come roost on your post, as well as pure trolls.   

My view is not to self censor but to keep them out or just educate them (it does not need to be kindly) on why their advice is a crock, dismissive, denigrating, disconnected and down right ignorant (also whatever the general term for mansplaining is...where someone who knows little to nothing of a topic tells someone else who know it inside out they are wrong and how it really is...the internet is full of people like that as they get shut down pretty fast in real life).

I think you come backs to the examples are the kind of thing to "educate" these people.   The walk like a man to not get beaten up for being gay, wow!  Only if given in the clear context of it is f*ed up people attack you but one way you may stay safer is this cover...but otherwise it smacks of (wait it is) victim blaming.  I could say, has America tried to pass some Sharia law, you know it might keep you from being attacked by Al Queda. 

Mental illness is a horrible one, people do think it is just a matter of will or how you think.  Like WTF, you can't just think it away anymore than you can think away cancer....and know there are those who think you can think away cancer. 

In my view, and some expereince with it, there are real physical, biochemical bases for a lot of mental illness, that is they are physical illnesses...just ones that are far more complicated than a virus, and with biological mechanisms that alter neurochemical (not our insulin level) that show up as "mental" symptoms.   A lot of people every day alter their mental state with alcohol, mental illness is just more nuance than that (we poorly understand the chemicals involved) and unlike alcohol consumption involuntary.   The brain is also plastic, in that it it very adaptive and responsive, traumatic experiences can and do alter ones neurochemistry, memories can and do trigger neurochemicals.  People expereince this all the time, you have fond memory, that "fondness" is a neurochemical produced by the memory.  Those with trauma, just not so nice or so simple. 

In one regard how you think can help, but it is not easy or some switch you throw.

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(I’m not talking about posts on these boards - obvs when someone posts here, they’re inviting replies from all kinds of people with all kinds of perspectives, and as long as someone posts within the guidelines, any response is valid. I’m speaking about the kind of interactions people have in more controlled spaces, like, among FB friends, or IRL, where the people you’re sharing with are there because there is some kind of relationship beyond chance.)

Oops, thought you meant in general above.  In controlled groups would hope the moderators would expel the trolls, but if they have not the only solution I have found its to find a site where they do.    

IRL what to do but educate if they are not strangers?  At least those I know IRL would not say the more specific examples you give, and do not mean to offend or diminish if they say "look on the bright side" and willing to be educated and will understand when you say they don't get it. 

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I’ve read responses on these boards over the years that IMV probably count as “toxic positivity”, so I’m sure there are people here who would disagree with my view, and maybe even some who would agree with me, but I’d be interested to hear from people who have a view on this (either way) what you feel about this, and why. 

Here, I don't think read enough forums to have a say as those kind of topics are just not in the forums I frequent. 

I do say often that the mindset you have can have a big impact on how a date goes (no guarantees though) and ones world view has a big impact on what you seek and will find and how you filter information (and perhaps filter it wrong and hence draw conclusions that are wrong). 

I do believe in "positive" thinking as in a can do attitude but do not believe simply positive thinking alone does anything, positive thoughts help inspire positive action...but they don't guarantee anything...as opposed to negative thoughts that can lead to self fulfilling prophecies. 

Always to the extent the facts of the situation support it, there is no positive thinking for example if things are abusive, the positive thoughts are there are people to help you, you are not alone, get out as safely as you can.  So positive thoughts are different than apologetics to me, but plenty of apologetics mascaraed as "positive thoughts."

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by SumGuy

[Happy Lemming]

6 hours ago, Fletch Lives said:

I've seen a gluten free diet cure arthritis.

 

6 hours ago, Uruktopi said:

When uric acid is involved, tea made of dried advocado leaves may help.

 

I don't want to derail the thread, but wanted to Thank both of you for the suggestions.  I had to call my Mom about another matter and forwarded your suggestions.  She is going to ask her doctor about them.

Again, Thank You!!

[Uruktopi]

1 hour ago, Happy Lemming said:

 

I don't want to derail the thread, but wanted to Thank both of you for the suggestions.  I had to call my Mom about another matter and forwarded your suggestions.  She is going to ask her doctor about them.

Again, Thank You!!

You are welcome.

Of course, asking her doctor is the right thing to do,

Some diseses have a common name but may have various causal origins. 

 Arthritis is frecuently an autoinmune one, like in part of my family, and that have specific medications,

In some other cases, like in my father, was caused by uric acid (also asociated with one origin of kidney stones). 

In that and only case, my suggestion may help (as helped him a lot), provided that there is medical approval for it.

If the doc finds it right, feel free to msg me for more details on how to do about.

Best wishes.

[basil67]

23 hours ago, MsJayne said:

Hmm, it's one of my favourite current topics, and a very curly one. I find it really offensive when I hear someone trying to jolly along a person who's facing real life challenges, some sort of hardship or illness, but I find it equally offensive when someone who's facing those sort of challenges complains to the point that they're unpleasant and toxic to be around. 

I missed this post earlier, and you're absolutely right.  While it's OK to tell someone how you're feeling, there is a limit as to what others can reasonably bear.   

This guy sounds like the type who you don't greet with "how are you?" because they will tell you.

[basil67]

4 hours ago, SumGuy said:

IRL what to do but educate if they are not strangers?  At least those I know IRL would not say the more specific examples you give, and do not mean to offend or diminish if they say "look on the bright side" and willing to be educated and will understand when you say they don't get it. 

On the topic of respectfully educating, my son's paediatrian did this for me.

My son was missing all the milestones, had behavioural and eating issues...and I was so overwhelmed.  I went in for an appointment and listed every terrible thing which was happening.  He gently asked me about the positive things which had happened and I had an epiphany about the mindset I'd been having.  Of course, I still had all these issues, but I did change my mindset to help balance them with the good.  

That said, I had long before stopped sharing how I felt outside of my husband and paed.   Of the times I had shared my concerns about his development with friends and family, my concerns were minimised.  ('Ah, they're all the same by the time they are 4').   It's one thing to tell someone not to worry when their kid simply toilet trains late, but it's so harmful to dismiss concerns when there are so many things wrong.   For the record, he's now 24 and is learning to do kid's jigsaw puzzles with me and can cook (and eat!) scrambled eggs.  I'm so proud  🥰    (Sorry, I had to squeeze in a mama boast)

Edited June 30, 2021 by basil67

[Versacehottie]

On 6/29/2021 at 9:18 AM, d0nnivain said:

Alas social media is probably not the best forum for this.  

 

This is exactly what I was going to say....Social media is an illusion, an acquaintance type thing, very surface-y.  I don't think it's the place for actual deep problems to be discussed or put out there really.  Let's say you have 500 friends or followers--how many of those would you be sharing this deep information with in real life...a handful?  I know some people who when we will be out will say oh I think I know that person over there we follow each other on social media or he/she follows me or is my "friend" on social media.  So in public they don't even really speak or aren't even sure they know each other.  I know this is an extreme example perhaps but also there are levels to friendship--all the examples mentioned in the OP are life altering events (serious mental illness, or disability limitations etc and all the person who post about them in a semi-public place deepest disappointments or struggles with them)...all things people should choose a handful of truly close and trusted people (or maybe a therapist) to share that info with that actually can be supportive and helpful.

It is true that lots of times even trusted people don't know what to say.  I think a lot of people on social media over-share.  I think kind people are trying to respond or say "something" to acknowledge the person posting's pain, hurt or what have you. They, not being that sacred handful of the right people and perhaps farther removed from the person say what one might say to a stranger or their barista at Starbucks.  Also commonly people in general, in any venue, approach it as they would probably appreciate if in the same situation. Also if happening now, I think it's such an extreme time of bad information after bad information, people are just full up.  Not to make light of anything going on but their capacity to give more is limited so they default to easy and short--which also fits the venue on social media.  But first and foremost, I think your friends are sharing their information and woes in the wrong place with the wrong people.  Change that and they will likely get different responses.  Speak to people in a position to give real and helpful advice and not blanket every tier of your friend group with the same information.  Not everyone needs to know.

[Prudence V]

10 hours ago, Versacehottie said:

Social media is an illusion, an acquaintance type thing, very surface-y.  I don't think it's the place for actual deep problems to be discussed or put out there really.

If that’s how you use it, fair enough. Many of us use it differently, especially since the start of the lockdown, when meeting up F2F has been impossible. Also, for those of us whose friend and family circles are widely dispersed across the globe, in very different time zones, it’s been the best way of staying in touch, and several networks have been either largely or wholly forged online. I have close friends I’ve never met F2F, who live in countries like the US that I’ve never been to and never will. So it’s very much “different strokes for different folks” where that is concerned. 
 

10 hours ago, Versacehottie said:

I think a lot of people on social media over-share.

If social media is your best means of communicating with those who are closest to you, it’s not over-sharing. And people always have the option to glance and move on if they don’t want to interact, or don’t have the resources to respond appropriately at that time. (Even just clicking the “care” react on FB would be preferable to asking Nomonde if she’s sure the racist interaction she experienced really was racist, and not just Nomonde being oversensitive…) 

 

10 hours ago, Versacehottie said:

I think your friends are sharing their information and woes in the wrong place with the wrong people.

In the wrong place, I don’t agree. With the wrong people - I think that’s what we’re all discovering, that some people who have been “friends” since whenever actually don’t really belong in that category, even if they’ve been masquerading as such for decades

[Wiseman2]

1 minute ago, Prudence V said:

. I have close friends I’ve never met F2F, who live in countries like the US 

Agree . Social media is a good place to get conversations going about all sorts of things. 

For example, with the recent Cosby news, the metoo movement comes to mind.

Anyway when I close my door the window opens. Have a nice day. Every silver lining has a cloud 🌦️

 

[Prudence V]

3 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Every silver lining has a cloud 🌦️

Especially in these parts… 🤣🤣🤣

[d0nnivain]

1 hour ago, Prudence V said:

If social media is your best means of communicating with those who are closest to you, it’s not over-sharing.

Yes it is still oversharing.  The platforms have ways to make things more private & those should be used. 

If somebody has 500 "friends" on a platform, telling that huge group everything IS oversharing.  My college sorority sisters & I formed a small private FB group.  I'm in another private FB group filled with DH's extended family.  DH is in a group of his fellow Marines.  Stuff gets put on those pages that would inappropriate IMO for the regular page.  

You throw stuff out there for the whole world -- your family, your BFFs, your neighbors, your co-workers, people you went to HS with, somebody you met once on a vacation -- you are going to get varied reactions.  People need to learn to keep their own counsel better.  

[Versacehottie]

4 hours ago, Prudence V said:

If that’s how you use it, fair enough. Many of us use it differently, especially since the start of the lockdown, when meeting up F2F has been impossible. Also, for those of us whose friend and family circles are widely dispersed across the globe, in very different time zones, it’s been the best way of staying in touch, and several networks have been either largely or wholly forged online. I have close friends I’ve never met F2F, who live in countries like the US that I’ve never been to and never will. So it’s very much “different strokes for different folks” where that is concerned. 
 

If social media is your best means of communicating with those who are closest to you, it’s not over-sharing. And people always have the option to glance and move on if they don’t want to interact, or don’t have the resources to respond appropriately at that time. (Even just clicking the “care” react on FB would be preferable to asking Nomonde if she’s sure the racist interaction she experienced really was racist, and not just Nomonde being oversensitive…) 

 

In the wrong place, I don’t agree. With the wrong people - I think that’s what we’re all discovering, that some people who have been “friends” since whenever actually don’t really belong in that category, even if they’ve been masquerading as such for decades

There is a huge difference putting something in private message to your close friend on social media vs blanketing your entire audience. That's where you are getting things confused. It's not really different than real life expectations.  If you are "friends" with 500 or even just 50 people on social media, they all have different levels of intimacy of friendship--thus dictating what they should or should not know or be privy to in your life.  Perhaps you/your friends have expectations for social media "friends" or acquaintances that they are never meant to be--and that is really the issue.  Have you ever been on the other side of someone oversharing with you and been completely stunned as what to say?   I have. 

And people that want to get all fired up on social media over every political issue, etc and debate that stuff with their "friends" aren't really for everyone. Promptly get the mute from me let's say if it goes on too long.  That kind of stuff belongs in a forum where it's the subject of the forum like this place.

I don't disagree that people use social media differently but putting the same expectations on a group of people who follow you for various reasons is insane. I don't disagree that some real life friends are more surface than some online ones--that doesn't change the premise that some people are meant for sharing sensitive information with and others are not.  If you can tell the difference, why would you blanket people--some of who you know are surface or masqueraders---with the same exact information as true friends inclined to give sensitive replies and then expect all to be sympathetic.  The phrase: know your audience, comes to mind.  Bolded is a contradiction to your initial post as I understood it.  Initially you said it's rather disappointing when people can't come up with an appropriate response and now in bolded you are saying it's ok to ignore or not respond, to which I would agree.  But after a point some people, I'd imagine you'd be one of them, due to your initial post would see this lack of response as a slight.  It still goes back to why share your innermost thoughts like that?  With anyone and everyone who is your social media friend?  

It's a totally different discussion of social media being a good place to connect with people when face to face isn't possible. Absolutely it is fine but that is different than what you spoke about initially.  Connect is different than dump a big heavy weight of problems on and expect sympathy from a varied group of people and in a way that works for you.  As the positive toxicity you spoke about is a version of wanting to control the response you get.  If you put that sort of business out to the world, expect to get a variety of responses, some of which you don't find particularly helpful or your style. It's funny that your expectation would be different if the entirety of your group gets the information. Of course the responses are going to be varied! Meet the telephone, text message or private message within social media--those are the places for deeper conversations with trusted handful and a reasonable expectation of a helpful response and true support.  Lol, I'm feeling rather baited into a complaint thread TBH. 

I will just end the post by saying: have a blessed day😊🙏

[Prudence V]

16 minutes ago, Versacehottie said:

That's where you are getting things confused.

Oh, I’m not “getting things confused” at all - OTC, you appear to be making assumptions about what I understand, or what I’m referring to, that are way off the mark. SM offers many more options than just PM or public broadcast. Most of us in my networks use it in far more sophisticated ways - we have defined different “audiences” (eg, close friends, colleagues, family, acquaintances, etc) with some ppl obvs being in more than one category, and post judiciously to the “audience” we want (including adding the “not so-and-so” option if we want to post to a particular group minus an individual or two). 
 

I know that’s very different to how some people use SM, but we are informed enough to know what tools are available to us and to use them appropriately. 
 

22 minutes ago, Versacehottie said:

Initially you said it's rather disappointing when people can't come up with an appropriate response and now in bolded you are saying it's ok to ignore or not respond

You see a contradiction here? It’s the same thing. Respond appropriately, or move on. it’s not that difficult a concept. 

 

23 minutes ago, Versacehottie said:

Connect is different than dump a big heavy weight of problems on and expect sympathy from a varied group of people and in a way that works for you.

Nowhere in my OP did I speak about “dumping a heavy weight”. OTC I carefully differentiated between a general “post to whoever is out there”, like one does on these boards, and the use of social media to connect to friends and family. 
 

25 minutes ago, Versacehottie said:

As the positive toxicity you spoke about is a version of wanting to control the response you get.  

Controlling? Not at all. Using it as a device to know who your real friends are, perhaps. 
 

26 minutes ago, Versacehottie said:

If you put that sort of business out to the world

Again, no one I know above the age of 25 posts “to the world”. Your experience might differ. 

 

28 minutes ago, Versacehottie said:

Meet the telephone, text message or private message within social media--those are the places for deeper conversations with trusted handful and a reasonable expectation of a helpful response and true support.

Again, perhaps these media work for you. I know few people under the age of about 70 who use the phone as a phone - most of us use it for WhatsApp, IG, FB, Telegram, etc. Text message is fine 1-on-1 but if you’re wanting to communicate with more people than that, it gets tiresome. And if you’ve just had an experience of, e.g. racist abuse, you really don’t want to be typing that out multiple times and dirtying your brain with the memory. A single post, which allows multiple asynchronous responses, is far better, IMO, but I leave it up to those who’re in that position to choose how they wish to communicate. 
 

 

[Prudence V]

3 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

Yes it is still oversharing.  The platforms have ways to make things more private & those should be used. 

You’re assuming that they’re not? If social media are your best means of communicating *with those who are closest to you*, it’s not oversharing.