Hypergamy. why 'good'men get left behind?

[basil67]

10 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I don't dispute that, I was speaking of being attracted to lazy.  

Sitting on your arse all day playing video games for example or watching soaps (are they even still around?) eating bonbons.

I dunno, maybe you're right; I can't imagine that for myself (or anyone in my social circle) but there's a lid for every pot I suppose.

Indeed there is a lid for every pot.  If being on benefits and not looking for work is all you know, you're not going to perceive it as being a problem when you see it in someone else. 

[jspice]

1 hour ago, Cookiesandough said:

Do you think it’s gendered ? Like men equally feel the same about women that are lazy or have no work ethic? Let’s just say that she had no job or ambition. Just liked playing video games all day long? And she wasn’t like one of the top 10 Youtubers who make crazy $ doing that 

A quality man will want a quality woman. 
I love a man who loves my work ethic and my intelligence. 
 

Men who I’ve been serious with valued my education. I caught one of them boasting about my language skills once. He thought I was sleeping and I had no idea he even spoke about me that way  🤣

The ones who wanted the pretty, airhead arm candy that was 15-20 years younger than them eliminated themselves. 
I wasn’t for them and they weren’t for me  

 

[Cookiesandough]

13 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I don't dispute that, I was speaking of being attracted to lazy.  

Sitting on your arse all day playing video games for example or watching soaps (are they even still around?) eating bonbons.

I dunno, maybe you're right; I can't imagine that for myself (or anyone in my social circle) but there's a lid for every pot I suppose.

 

 

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

If they weren't attracted to each other, they wouldn't marry and have more babies.   I think that having similar life experiences and outlook creates much connection.

Of all my friends - from school friends to friends I've made as adults....and now my daughter and her friends, they are all ending up with people from similar backgrounds.   Of my daughter in particular, while she does want a guy who's at/graduated uni (like her).  But experience has taught her that she does not want to date the private schooled boys from the posh end of town because in terms of their outlook in life, they have nothing in common.

Yes, I don’t doubt that there are some that are attracted to each other, but that doesn’t mean they are most attracted to those people. If they had their pick of anyone, how do you know they wouldn’t want someone else? However, those people have picks  higher up on the totem pole as well so they are spoken for. If they want marriage and children or sex at all, they’re going to have to go somewhere. I hate to think of it like that but I just venture a guess that even people that are morbidly obese, no job, ambitions and only hobby is sitting on the computer playing league of legends is strongly attracted to the same? But they will probably settle for the same if they want a family/sex/partner 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[basil67]

4 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

OK... no problem.  I concede your example is actually better than mine.

So substitute "Home Depot Clerk" or "Walmart Greeter" into the comparison vs. the cardiologist, the results will be the same.

Why are we putting the cardiologist on a pedestal?   The guy could be a complete a**.  No amount of money makes up for a rotten personality.

[Cookiesandough]

Sorry I am just going with this theory I am not saying that I espouse it., I’m also using voice to text on my phone , so I hope is intelligible. 

[Happy Lemming]

Just now, basil67 said:

Why are we putting the cardiologist on a pedestal?  

OK... he is a nice cardiologist and so are the Walmart Greeter and Home Depot Clerk, they are nice people.

[poppyfields]

3 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

It’s hard to say. I’m not the best person to ask. See my thread where I went on a date with a homeless guy. That’s part of why I asked the question. Because it’s interesting to me where these things overlap and where things seem to be in a category of their own.  We see often that wealthy people are also often intelligent and resourceful, but this is not always the case. It is actually sometimes a convincing illusion.  When I see someone with A LOT of money I sometimes automatically equate them with someone that is successful/ resourceful. When they could’ve just won the lottery or inherited it. I think the fact that they even have that money can be very attractive to a lot of women. Especially women who are... “highly hypergamous” The lifestyle that comes with that also could create certain traits. For example, a guy that’s born into wealth might seem more carefree and confident than a guy who has worked hard but is struggling financially. Then there are different kinds of intelligent and resourceful. Someone gave an example of an ex-boyfriend who was successful, but she did not feel a connection with him because he was kind of… Dull. Book smart, but not the type of smart that she was into. Oh yea and I have friends who date borderline  deadbeats  but they find them physically attractive

I’m not really sure. But I appreciate all the answers here. They are very interesting and something to ponder.

cookies, I agree it's too nuanced a topic to say definitively one way or the other.  Different degrees of intelligence, resourcefulness, and well, just about everything.

My sense from reading your homeless man thread was that you and this man shared a certain energy; he was intelligent in ways you could identify with, a bit "off the beaten path," a non-conformist, an iconoclast, a social isolate - qualities that you found appealing and attractive.

I could see myself attracted to that as well, or a variation thereof.  Doesn't mean I will end up marrying the guy, but I might have wanted to share time with him, and whatever else struck our fancy .

And you're right, a man born into wealth or who won the lottery obviously has the resources to pursue other more creative endeavors, like say a writer or musician.  And if struggling in that regard to gain success, would still be highly attractive to many women.

I could see myself falling hard for a man like that myself.

Again, what I was referring to in my earlier posts was a man being lazy.  Sitting on his a$$ playing video games all day, drinking beer and basically doing jack shyt.

Another poster wrote that all women care about is a man with a huge wallet, that a huge wallet trumps everything else, and I refute that.  Because a man could have a huge wallet and be the laziest son of b**** this side of the Pacific Ocean, and I can't speak for every woman but for me and the women I know, would be a huge turn OFF, despite the huge wallet.

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by poppyfields

[basil67]

3 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Yes, I don’t doubt that there are some that are attracted to each other, but that doesn’t mean they are most attracted to those people. Like if they had their pic they would probably want someone else how do you know they wouldn’t want someone else? 

I assume you mean 'pick'.

Short of providing data to back up our claims, the only thing we have to go on is anecdotal evidence.  My anedotal evidence is that people want and marry those who have similar backgrounds and life experience because it provides connection.   

Are you and all your friends trying to marry up?  Is it was your mother did?   I'm wondering what you see in real life which gives you the idea that it's common. 

[jspice]

5 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Why are we putting the cardiologist on a pedestal?   The guy could be a complete a**.  No amount of money makes up for a rotten personality.

Because apparently money is the only thing that women are after ... 🙄🤣

[basil67]

5 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

OK... he is a nice cardiologist and so are the Walmart Greeter and Home Depot Clerk, they are nice people.

And what is my background?

Edit to add:  It's just that I can't imagine having anything much in common with either of these guys.

Edited March 24, 2021 by basil67

[Cookiesandough]

8 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I assume you mean 'pick'.

Short of providing data to back up our claims, the only thing we have to go on is anecdotal evidence.  My anedotal evidence is that people want and marry those who have similar backgrounds and life experience because it provides connection.   

Are you and all your friends trying to marry up?  Is it was your mother did?   I'm wondering what you see in real life which gives you the idea that it's common. 

Yes, sorry. I’m using voice to text. And no no, I am not saying it is common in those around me specifically, but I have definitely seen it occasionally with friends. If we are specifically talking about anecdotal evidence,  I have first hand experience where I have desired/dated men out of my ‘league’ and vice versa. Lastly , all the time on message boards/second hand ( there’s actually a running thread in this sub forum which is all about it)  I am just saying that if we are to believe in leagues, there are leagues that are above and below based on certain characteristics, we should believe that the most people would be attracted to the ‘higher ones’ and that scales everyone? . I know that you think that his personality alone, basil. But again, if we are talking about anecdotal evidence, I’ve seen it extend to other areas of a person and I was just throwing out one part of that to see what others thought. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[Happy Lemming]

6 minutes ago, basil67 said:

And what is my background?

 

You are "Jane Average"... you are a receptionist at a roofing company and make just over minimum wage.

[basil67]

1 minute ago, Happy Lemming said:

You are "Jane Average"... you are a receptionist at a roofing company and make just over minimum wage.

Are our socio economic backgrounds the same?

[Cookiesandough]

14 minutes ago, basil67 said:

And what is my background?

Edit to add:  It's just that I can't imagine having anything much in common with either of these guys.

I guess it just makes sense that laziness is pretty much a universally  negative trait in human beings so it makes sense that we wouldn’t want that in a partner, particularly a long-term partner. It’s not conducive to bettering our lives as a team right. And that good work ethic and intelligence is pretty universally positive. If it takes those steps to gain a higher position, wouldn’t a woman rather have that? Or you’re saying all things being equal , the average woman is   just as likely to pick a janitor over a cardiologist? 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[basil67]

6 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Yes, sorry. I’m using voice to text. And no no, I am not saying it is common in those around me, specifically, but I have definitely seen it there. If we are specifically talking about anecdotal evidence,  I have seen it among celebrities ( who are highly desirable, have many suitors, high league) I also have first hand experience where I have desired/dated men out of my ‘league’ and vice versa. Lastly , all the time on message boards/second hand ( there’s actually a running thread in this sub forum which is all about it)  I am just saying that if we are to believe in leagues there are leagues that are above and below based on certain characteristics. I know that you think that his personality alone, basil. But again, if we are talking about anecdotal evidence, I’ve seen it extend to other areas of a person and I was just throwing out one part of that to see what others thought. 

How many celebrities marry people who either don't run in the same circles or have a decent job?   

Yes, you may have dated/desired men who are out of your league and vice verca, but how many of those ended up in a serious, ongoing sustainable relationship?

 

[poppyfields]

27 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Why are we putting the cardiologist on a pedestal?   The guy could be a complete a**.  No amount of money makes up for a rotten personality.

He may not even be an a** with a rotten personality.  He may be a great guy, but not right for that particular woman.

It's funny, I recall when I was contemplating dumping my doctor boyfriend right before I met my recent ex, many of my friends were like "wha???"  Like they couldn't understand it.  Only one of my friends did cause she knows me really well, and knows I need a certain amount of emotional stimulation, and he just wasn't capable (or desirous) of providing that.

I suppose there are women who would have remained with him, being unsatisfied and unhappy merely because he was a "doctor" but for me it was irrelevant.  So he had a great job and made a decent salary, big whoop.  

There are more important things in life (for me anyway), not to mention I make my own money and didn't need his.  The social status element of it was also a non-issue for me.

Super great guy though in many ways, and like I said we are still friends because of that.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by poppyfields

[Cookiesandough]

13 minutes ago, basil67 said:

How many celebrities marry people who either don't run in the same circles or have a decent job?   

Yes, you may have dated/desired men who are out of your league and vice verca, but how many of those ended up in a serious, ongoing sustainable relationship?

 

I’m not sure the numbers on that, but I was using examples where celebrities married very attractive people who are not famous or talented, like their hairdresser or a model or something. I see that occur quite often, particularly with men. But saying celebrities desire people in their own ranks is not disapproving hypergamy at all. Since most people believe that celebrities are pretty high in the ranks, it makes sense that they would want someone who is also high in rank. I think that would have a stronger case if using the example of celebrities  desiring an average joe over another celebrity. Or a poor carpenter. Do you think Megan Fox would ever date a poor carpenter? How many poor carpenters would date her? ( a lot)  Anyway, I don’t see what my choice in partners or to not sustain a relationship has to do with this topic at all. I choose to end my relationships because I want to be single. That has nothing to do with whether or not they are guys within my league or out of my league. I’ve dated both and they all end the same. If it’s a problem at all, which I don’t think it is, it would be a problem with me, not hypergamy. 
 

Oops. Sry I completely butchered that. still using voice-to-text

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[basil67]

3 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

I guess it just makes sense that laziness is pretty much a universally  negative trait in human beings so it makes sense that we wouldn’t want that in a partner, particularly a long-term partner. It’s not conducive to bettering our lives as a team right. And that good work ethic and intelligence is pretty universally positive. If it takes those steps to gain a higher position, wouldn’t a woman rather have that? Or you’re saying all things being equal , the average woman is   just as likely to pick a janitor over a cardiologist? 

Being lazy/poor work ethic is only a negative trait to those who aren't the same.  Otherwise, it's just "normal"   A person who has high intelligence is going to have nothing in common with a person who has low intelligence and it's not going to get off the ground.

Using the previously mentioned example of receptionist choosing between janitor and cardiologist, I think that using extremes to make a point loses touch with reality.  In reality, she's likely to end up connecting with a guy who travels in the same circles and has a similar outlook on life.  Perhaps a tradesman or bank worker. 

 

[basil67]

12 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I suppose there are women who would have remained with him, being unsatisfied and unhappy merely because he was a "doctor" but for me it was irrelevant.  So he had a great job and made a decent salary, big whoop.  

There are more important things in life (for me anyway), not to mention I make my own money and didn't need his.  The social status element of it was also a non-issue for me.

Super great guy though in many ways, and like I said we are still friends because of that.

Exactly!

[basil67]

7 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

But saying celebrities desire people in their own ranks is not disapproving hypergamy at all.

It doesn't disprove hypergamy, but nor does it prove it.  I think it's irrelevant to the argument.

[Cookiesandough]

12 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Being lazy/poor work ethic is only a negative trait to those who aren't the same.  Otherwise, it's just "normal"   A person who has high intelligence is going to have nothing in common with a person who has low intelligence and it's not going to get off the ground.

Using the previously mentioned example of receptionist choosing between janitor and cardiologist, I think that using extremes to make a point loses touch with reality.  In reality, she's likely to end up connecting with a guy who travels in the same circles and has a similar outlook on life.  Perhaps a tradesman or bank worker. 

 

I’m typing now.. OHhhh. I think I see your point now, basil. Yeah, I don’t think many people disagree that couples tend to match with their relative equal all things considered  ( that hasn’t been the majority of my experience, but studies have shown that is what usually happens). I agree with you there. But like I said before,  this topic is more about desirability. Particularly a woman’s desire for ‘higher status’ mates ( Please see OP) independent if she actually married the EMT. 
 

If I am to understand you correctly, you do not think this is true. You do not think a woman is overall and even genetically more disposed to being attracted to a man with higher social status, career prestige, or income. 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[basil67]

Again, and it's only anecdotally, I think most are attracted to others who have a similar socio economic/work ethic/educational background because they are more likely to relate well to each other.

Does hypergamy exist? I'm sure it does.  But I don't believe it's as common as many make out.    A guy here was recently talking about the hot trailer trash girl who marries a doctor.  I'm sorry, but that's just not gonna happen.  

Edited March 24, 2021 by basil67

[Cookiesandough]

5 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Again, and it's only anecdotally, I think most are attracted to others who have a similar socio economic/work ethic/educational background because they are more likely to relate well to each other.

 

Oh okay. So you’re saying 3 guys being equal, the average woman would be less attracted to her favorite actor if he were as an actor like he is, or if he were a janitor, than he would be if he is exactly like her in social status. She would be most attracted to him if he were her equal socio/economically (hypothetically) 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[Woggle]

Some people men and women just want a good partner who they love and are attracted to to share a life with. This bashing and assuming of the worst intentions between the genders is part of why relationships are so messed up today and yes I realize how hypocritical that makes me sound but whatever. People are so damn negative these days about everything.

[basil67]

I'm sorry @Cookiesandough, I have no idea what you're trying to say here