Honestly, is it possible to love someone and cheat on them?

[Uruktopi]

1 hour ago, neowulf said:

You're entitled to your thoughts on this.

All you're going to get here are other perspectives.
  
You'll find a lot of people here who've lived through a lot of different experiences.
Some people appear to live very cut and dry lives.  That's doesn't hold true for everyone. 

Of course you're entitled to your thoughts on this.

And you're going to get here are other perspectives.

You'll find a lot of people here who've lived through a lot of different experiences

Some people appear to see life and love as you do.  That's doesn't hold true for everyone

[Uruktopi]

neowulf, thank you

Just in case and with my full respect, my reply was to your post.

As, given my own personal experiences and view of love, I agree with snowcones.

So, both situated in a wider spectrum of also valid answers, he is not the only one to see it as he does.

We are part of those "other perspectives".

Edited March 15, 2021 by Uruktopi

[hotpotato]

Yes. Some people want to taste the rainbow but still love their partners. 

Some people think that if the woman cheats, the relationship is over, whereas if a man cheats he may still want to be with the SO. 

[Wiseman2]

On 3/13/2021 at 3:45 PM, snowcones said:

By love I mean real love.  The way everybody wants to be loved.

No. Cheaters only love themselves. They do not care about their partners or whoever they are cheating with..

When they are with the primary partner the person they cheat with is out-of-sight-out-of-mind and the reverse is true.

All the "guilt" and crocodile tears are pure acting . Cheating is about manipulating .

The high of the deceit. The thrill of the game. It's never about love. It's about entitlement at the expense of others.

It's about power and control and playing everyone for  their own needs and fun.

[DKT3]

Yes...in fact i would say most cheaters do in fact love thier betrayed partners..the question is, is that the kind of love the partners want.

I think there are some factual basis to suggest that most people don't stay with unfaithful partners.  Men less so than Women, but over the past 30 years that gap has closed a great deal.

Most of those that do stay are really just going through the motion of staying married and for all romantic purposes are in fact done. Faithful and unfaithful alike. 

[neowulf]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

No. Cheaters only love themselves. They do not care about their partners or whoever they are cheating with..

When they are with the primary partner the person they cheat with is out-of-sight-out-of-mind and the reverse is true.

All the "guilt" and crocodile tears are pure acting . Cheating is about manipulating .

The high of the deceit. The thrill of the game. It's never about love. It's about entitlement at the expense of others.

It's about power and control and playing everyone for  their own needs and fun.

So where does the sexless marriage of 10 years fit into that? 
The otherwise loving partnership, with a critical, tragic flaw?
The woman who's husband won't touch her, but is tireless in raising his kids and providing for his family?

You can argue, from a clinical point of view, that in each of these cases, the people involved should simply leave.
To which I say, that's about as useful as telling a fat person to "stop stuffing their face".  Having simple solutions
doesn't mean they're easy solutions.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't people who cheat callously, but I think this kind of black and white thinking about the 
issue isn't helpful.  People are flesh and blood.  They make mistakes.  They fall victim to addiction.  They self sabotage.

I'm not trying to justify infidelity.  It's one of the most hurtful things a person can do to someone they love.  
But I disagree it's always as machiavellian as people think it is.  Sometimes people just screw up.
 

[Marc878]

From what I’ve  seen during an affair the spouse doesn’t exist.
 

The affair trumps everything. Love for the spouse doesn’t exist.

[Soul-shards]

1 hour ago, neowulf said:

I'm not trying to justify infidelity.  It's one of the most hurtful things a person can do to someone they love.  

But I disagree it's always as machiavellian as people think it is.  Sometimes people just screw up.
 

This.

This is the main problem with people who vilify cheaters indiscriminately, across the board. They miss the nuances, the exceptions to the rule, the cases where you can't just "talk it out" or fix through counseling, situations where divorcing is much easier said than done and would have catastrophic consequences for the entire family. If one partner cannot change to meet a need, neither can the other given up the need (irreconcilable differences), but neither can the marriage go even if the law makes it 'easy' - then sometimes, something's gotta give, and that may not be according to pristine social ethics.

[SumGuy]

On 3/12/2021 at 10:08 PM, snowcones said:

I really would like to know.  What say you?

Yes...in their heart or intentions perhaps, but by cheating their actions say otherwise.  I never by the it was the situation/temptation excuse.  If one is so weak willed avoid such situations.

I call such love, they love to be with you, they don't love YOU.

[RecentChange]

From my personal experience, I would say yes, it is possible for someone to cheat on someone they love. Now, again from experience this pertains to sexual "flings" and not the type of thing where someone has a full on second relationship - that goes on for a long period of time and has confessions of love and things like that. 

You see, my husband cheated on me, oh, 13 years ago. And I cheated on him 6 years ago. 

We are not "finished" nor is the romance or sex life gone from our now nearly 20 year relationship.

We're bad, selfish,  hurtful choices made? You bet. Did we both care enough to put in the work to address not only the issues in the relationship, but more importantly the issues within ourselves? Absolutely.

Cheating doesn't have to be the end of things, but it does have to be the catalyst for serious change and self reflection. It's not something to be swept under the rug.

And of course this all depends on the individuals involved and their personal beliefs etc.

The psychologist Ester Perel has some interesting thoughts on the subject (if one wants further reading)

[Wiseman2]

7 hours ago, neowulf said:

You can argue, from a clinical point of view, 

Ah, the "but we're just flawed poor creatures, unfortunately stuck in this predicament through no fault of our own" argument.

Unfortunately I would simply put that in the 'crocodile tears' folder of rehearsed excuses.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Wiseman2

[neowulf]

5 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Ah, the "but we're just flawed poor creatures, unfortunately stuck in this predicament through no fault of our own" argument.

Unfortunately I would simply put that in the 'crocodile tears' folder of rehearsed excuses.

That's a gross oversimplification.  I didn't say "no fault of their own".  I said "people make mistakes".  Not some people.  ALL people.

Some people are simply lucky that their particular brand of weakness doesn't happen to destroy their lives.

Edited March 16, 2021 by neowulf

[pepperbird2]

On 3/13/2021 at 11:34 AM, central said:

I'd say yes.  This has been researched.  In many cases, the wayward spouse does love their partner.

My wife and I have been swingers, and have had an open or poly relationship (intermittently) for over 20 years.  We've both had sex with dozens of other people, and even loved other people.  Yet we have always loved each other.  The only difference is that we give each other permission, and don't stigmatize extra-dyadic sex as a negative.

Just me, but I don't see that as cheating. You and your wife were honest and upfornt. It doesn't sound to me like you would go behind her back.
it's the lying and deceit that are the crux of the issue.

[pepperbird2]

18 hours ago, neowulf said:

So where does the sexless marriage of 10 years fit into that? 
The otherwise loving partnership, with a critical, tragic flaw?
The woman who's husband won't touch her, but is tireless in raising his kids and providing for his family?

You can argue, from a clinical point of view, that in each of these cases, the people involved should simply leave.
To which I say, that's about as useful as telling a fat person to "stop stuffing their face".  Having simple solutions
doesn't mean they're easy solutions.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't people who cheat callously, but I think this kind of black and white thinking about the 
issue isn't helpful.  People are flesh and blood.  They make mistakes.  They fall victim to addiction.  They self sabotage.

I'm not trying to justify infidelity.  It's one of the most hurtful things a person can do to someone they love.  
But I disagree it's always as machiavellian as people think it is.  Sometimes people just screw up.
 

If it was a one time act. you could be right.
the extended affair where someone chooses to "feed the beast" so to speak over and over and over, all while trying to make excuses for why what they are doing is okay?
That isn't love. I don't know what it is.
It's my belief that when someone is involved in an extended affair ,they don't love their spouse. You dont knowingly hurt someone like that.

[pepperbird2]

17 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

This.

This is the main problem with people who vilify cheaters indiscriminately, across the board. They miss the nuances, the exceptions to the rule, the cases where you can't just "talk it out" or fix through counseling, situations where divorcing is much easier said than done and would have catastrophic consequences for the entire family. If one partner cannot change to meet a need, neither can the other given up the need (irreconcilable differences), but neither can the marriage go even if the law makes it 'easy' - then sometimes, something's gotta give, and that may not be according to pristine social ethics.

 the "i don't want to hurt my family" logic, all while engaging in an activity that has a high risk of blowing a family part in the worst possible way.

[NYAG]

On 3/13/2021 at 3:08 AM, snowcones said:

I really would like to know.  What say you?

Depends on what you mean by love. You can care for someone and want to protect them in the same way you would your children or parents but not want to sleep with them. If the intimacy has gone that doesn't mean you don't love them, you just love them in a different way.

[serial muse]

I honestly don't know the answer to OP's question. Cheating IMO is an act of hostility, and of course an act of selfishness. (I'm not talking about polyamory or swinging or any other consensual choices, by the way, which was raised upthread - I'm specifically talking about the lying and betrayal of trust involved in cheating.)

But you can be hostile to people you love, and you can be selfish in love. Feelings are complicated.

In my personal experience of being cheated on, I did not feel loved by him in the aftermath, which is honestly the thing that matters in the end. Whether or not he would say he loved me, I honestly don't know. But I also don't think I'd take his word for it - that's part of the self-serving thing. One pattern I have noticed in many cheaters is that they claim to be overwhelmed by their feelings and driven by those feelings, which makes it all seem more pretty and airy-fairy than it actually is, heh. My observation, from my own experience and also decades of reading boards like this one is that cheating is generally a highly calculated act that involves a great deal of planning. 

Anyway. Is that level of hostility and cruelty - whether overt or submerged - mutually exclusive with love? I suppose it might not be. But again, what does it matter? If one doesn't feel loved, that's the thing that matters. 

 

[mark clemson]

19 hours ago, Soul-shards said:

 the exceptions to the rule

Given the number of people who cheat at some point in their lives, I'm not sure that people who cheat without feeling some form of love for their spouse/betrayed partner ARE the exceptions. I think it's the ones who are pretty much completely happy but somehow need to cheat anyhow are rare. I could be wrong about that I guess.

"I love you but I'm not in love with you." IMO this = I feel LTR love for you, but I'm also unfulfilled and hoping NRE type love will help me feel better. OR I just "caught feelings" (ie, NRE or limerence) for someone else. IF it's limerence, then the feelings will be extremely strong.

The nuances of this, however, are unlikely to be the focus if the BS finds out.

In a very real way, (most of) our brains are designed to get us to cheat. That does NOT mean we have to, though.

C'est la vie.

[neowulf]

2 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

If it was a one time act. you could be right.
the extended affair where someone chooses to "feed the beast" so to speak over and over and over, all while trying to make excuses for why what they are doing is okay?
That isn't love. I don't know what it is.
It's my belief that when someone is involved in an extended affair ,they don't love their spouse. You dont knowingly hurt someone like that.

It’s never ok.  You will never find me justifying cheating.  It’s destructive and hurtful,

What I’m saying is that these kinds of relationships can possess an addictive quality, much like gambling or alcohol can.  Like those addictions, it can sneak up on you, catch you and your relationship at a vulnerable moment, and sink its hooks in.

Most people don’t suffer from addiction , so it’s difficult for them to understand that kind of compulsive behaviour.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by neowulf

[notbroken]

How can you say what is in the heart and mind of another?  How can anyone say that another person didn't love them (they can't possibly know what that person thinks/feels)?  I strongly believe SOME people can love someone and cheat on them.   SOME can't.    

[dramafreezone]

Yes, I think so.

We all know that love can exist outside of a romantic relationship.  From that perspective, a romantic violation like cheating can also exist independent of love.

[pepperbird2]

45 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

Yes, I think so.

We all know that love can exist outside of a romantic relationship.  From that perspective, a romantic violation like cheating can also exist independent of love.

This begs the question of does that "love" really matter? If so, to who? The BS? The WS?
That's a question a BS who hears " I'm sorry I cheated...I still love you" has to ask themselves. What use is "love" if one can still treat the person they claim to hold this feeling for so badly? Did they not feel this while they were cheating? Why did it only matter ( as is so often the case) when the BS finds out?
It's a pretty confusing landscape for a BS to navigate.

[Marc878]

A mistake is something you didn’t mean to do.

An affair is a choice or decision.

[pepperbird2]

4 minutes ago, Marc878 said:

A mistake is something you didn’t mean to do.

An affair is a choice or decision.

agree100 percent. Even from the pragmatic standpoint of potentially exposing your spouse to disease, a OW/OM who is less than stable, or the risk that they could find out and be really hurt- in what world is this "love"?

[Soul-shards]

2 hours ago, serial muse said:

. Cheating IMO is an act of hostility, and of course an act of selfishness.

I disagree cheating is an act of hostility unless it's done in malicious ways to ensure the spouse will find out.  As for selfishness - just about everything we do is an act of selfishness. Marriage too is an act of selfishness. When we 'call dibs' on another human being with a contract, commitment, and 'vows.' 

"I want you to love ME forever and no one else, no matter how much things change, no matter who else you might meet, etc."

To other women: "Don't touch X, he's MINE, his resources will always go to us and our children only." 

To other men: "Don't touch Y, she's mine. Her body belongs to me, all other penises keep away, so I can keep track of MY bloodline."

Everything is "selfishness." The sooner we accept this basic instinct (see Dawkins), the easier it gets for all of us to understand human nature, work with what we have, and set reasonable limits.  In my experience, people who are quick to accuse others of selfishness are some of the most selfish people out there, but they are good at cloaking theirs in virtue. 

To the extent the WS seeks to have a need met outside the marriage, he/she is selfish. To the extent they also seek to protect the spouse from the hurtful truth by hiding the A - he/she is NOT selfish. Just because they care and think about the spouse, doesn't mean they can always go with that need unmet.

More ofte than not, A-s are a desperate way to reconcile human's natural selfishness with their care about loved ones. 

Few are either completely self-driven (100% selfish) or complete martyrs for the exclusive well-being of others (100% unselfish).