Why don't more women speak up for themselves?

[Tamfana]

On 3/9/2021 at 3:19 AM, SaraSays said:

Could  you back this up with stat's,  showing a correlation between a reduction in the number of victims of s3xual attacks if we say something to our abusers? Based on all the instances I know of directly, experiences I know of indirectly, and experiences through volunteering, saying something didn't bring about anything observable as different from those who stayed quiet, or those who ran and raised the alarm, other than we've observed a greater risk for women who speak out of being gossiped about, of being managed out, of being subject to further abuse and called a troublemaker, of losing their jobs because of spurious claims them made in performance reviews).

It's incredibly damaging for those of us who've been victims of male on female violence and verbal abuse, and who support victims of such men, to see words like "weak" thrown around. You're blaming women for the crimes and miscondict of men. Take your fight to the men, not the victims, who are largely unable to control their response to being abused, as it's a physiological response.

Really good points and yeah, the idea of being weak/prey has been not only damaging but wrong. 

Random thought, from a kid of a union member... I wonder how much the loss of workers rights (with the decimation of unions) has affected the thinking and responses by the targets of sexual harassment. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Tamfana

[Tamfana]

On 3/5/2021 at 10:39 AM, d0nnivain said:

I am not blaming her or any other woman because some man decided to target them.  I am upset because in the moment the women didn't say Stop!, No! or get up & leave.  Coming forward 6 months after the fact is not enough, IMO. 

Clearly many people disagree.  

Some are shocked.  I typically am when someone's aggressive toward me. I also tended to blame myself or examine what I could do to avoid it- back then.  I was raised by the "girls are to be seen and not heard" paradigm and that has taken some decades to sort out.  lol!

I really identified with the women who have described how Representative Madison Cawthorn acted.  That community at Patrick Henry and how the RA warned the girls was very much like my college in 1980.  And it was considered a raging hotbed of liberalism!  

Edited March 11, 2021 by Tamfana

[Fletch Lives]

On 3/4/2021 at 8:49 PM, d0nnivain said:

I am a woman but listening to this woman talk about the inappropriate things Gov. Cuomo allegedly said to her, I really don't understand.  I have said no, that's not appropriate or outright stop to male bosses when they veered toward inappropriate conversations.  

Once I had a boss literally grab my butt.  I turned around & slapped him across the face.  When he got mad I said, "I thought were were doing inappropriate touching.  You grabbed my a$$.  I slapped your face.  What's the problem?"   He never touched me again & gave me great assignments thereafter.  It wasn't a quid pro quo.  I simply earned his respect.  

So if this woman had enough clout to get the job in the governor's office, why didn't she have enough fortitude to just tell him to stop?  If he retaliated her she'd have a better claim and she wouldn't look so weak & meek.  Women like her make me nuts.  

Here's the thing about sexual predators.  They can spot the weak.  So if you don't want to be a victim, use your voice.  Why is this so hard?  

It's good that you have strong boundaries but not everybody is like that. Some people are just too nice, have a long fuse, and don't realize they were taken advantage of until after the fact, and much later. 

 

Quote

Ummm, because in these situations the predator is in a position of POWER over the other person.  The boss has the ability to fire you.  A woman who is being harassed by her boss also doesn't know if she might lose her job.  Some people can't afford to lose their job and can't afford to do something crazy like talk back to their boss and risk it all.  You're acting like it's so easy and that's not fair or realistic at all.  And it's not cool to blame the victim.

 

This is true also.

 

Rule number one for guys (and girls) is, don't touch a woman you are not kissing and dating (other than mutual handshakes and hugs). Men need to learn how to treat women. I need to start a class on how to be a gentleman.

 

The guys should not being doing this in the first place, then you would not have to worry about year-old complaints.

 

This is not a matter of victims being volunteers - it's about Some ignorant men. 

[SaraSays]

21 hours ago, Fletch Lives said:

It's good that you have strong boundaries but not everybody is like that. Some people are just too nice, have a long fuse, and don't realize they were taken advantage of until after the fact, and much later. 

Agree generally with your post. Just wanting to comment on this point specifically.

The instinctive reaction to an attack on our bodies isn't relative to boundaries; it's a physiological response, beyond our control. I've been attacked an handful of times in my life, and couldn't have predicted how I would respond then, nor now. Through my conversations with others, and experiences volunteering to help women,  I haven't identified a link between boundaries and how someone reacts to abuse in the moment it happens, and I haven't found such a link in literature I have studied either. I also haven't seen a pattern in how a woman responds to each attack.

Beyond the attack, we have a bit more control over how we react, as time goes on, but there are things that feel important in any given moment, that are neutral in reality, yet they provide a bit of comfort in the moment (carrying a rape alarm, locking ourselves in a women's bathroom, being amongst people who won't ask questions, coming up with an excuse to not need to sit in the vicinity of our attacker, adjusting our meeting schedule so we're rarely near to our attacker).

Even with time, we're sometimes disguising how we're reacting because of the pressure to be women who blend-in, and the pressure to make everyoneelse's comfort a priority, rather than our own (our true reaction is shown when we're alone in the office, or when we're in the women's toilets, or when the person who's abusing us has left, or when we get home and feel there's a barrier between them and us).

[Prudence V]

On 3/11/2021 at 3:24 PM, Fletch Lives said:

don't realize they were taken advantage of until after the fact,

...or have been conditioned to think of it as “nothing” because many women experience far worse. As Marina Hyde illustrates:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/12/what-happened-women-uk-harassed-street

 

[Fletch Lives]

17 hours ago, Prudence V said:

...or have been conditioned to think of it as “nothing” because many women experience far worse. As Marina Hyde illustrates:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/12/what-happened-women-uk-harassed-street

 

That's not sexual harassment, that's just a kook.

[elaine567]

26 minutes ago, Fletch Lives said:

That's not sexual harassment, that's just a kook.

Maybe but there seems to be an awful lot of "kooks" around in London where some women, especially younger women and teenagers are saying that similar stuff is happening to them almost daily...

[elaine567]

On 3/11/2021 at 1:46 PM, Tamfana said:

the idea of being weak/prey has been not only damaging but wrong

But to some men women in general ARE weak and vulnerable, and as they can harass and abuse often with impunity, then why would they need to "behave"?
I know it is perhaps damaging for women to adopt the "weak" role, but the reality is that even the strongest women are weak when compared to a man, especially a man hell bent on raping or abusing or even killing her..

[Fletch Lives]

10 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Maybe but there seems to be an awful lot of "kooks" around in London where some women, especially younger women and teenagers are saying that similar stuff is happening to them almost daily...

I'm surprised they don't video them and call the cops on them - everybody caries a cell phone these days. While that type of harassment may not be criminal, the police could detain them and make those nuts think twice about doing it in the future.

I have a lady friend who was parked at a liquor store, and some drunk guys were stumbling around on her car - she video taped them - smart.

[Wiseman2]

On 3/12/2021 at 10:09 AM, SaraSays said:

  coming up with an excuse to not need to sit in the vicinity of our attacker, adjusting our meeting schedule so we're rarely near to our attacker.

It's unclear why someone who raped or assaulted you would be at a meeting with you, rather than in jail.

What exactly do you mean by the word "attacked"? Do you mean harassment? Or actual physical contact or a violent crime such as rape or assault?

All of these are illegal. Workplace harassment is illegal but a civil matter, not a criminal matter.

So it's very sad that you have to hide in the restroom if your workplace allows  someone who raped/assaulted you to sit at a board meeting next to you.

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Wiseman2

[Angelle]

8 hours ago, Fletch Lives said:

I'm surprised they don't video them and call the cops on them - everybody caries a cell phone these days. While that type of harassment may not be criminal, the police could detain them and make those nuts think twice about doing it in the future.

I have a lady friend who was parked at a liquor store, and some drunk guys were stumbling around on her car - she video taped them - smart.

Smart, but could also be considered to be escalating the situation, if they see her filming. People can get really pissed if they think they're being recorded.

 

On 3/13/2021 at 10:50 AM, Prudence V said:

...or have been conditioned to think of it as “nothing” because many women experience far worse. As Marina Hyde illustrates:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/12/what-happened-women-uk-harassed-street

 

Right. A woman I've mentioned in a political thread, told me that AOC was lying about what happened to her, because she was still alive. (This is on topic, not political.) If they'd really been out to kill her, she would be dead. So she was just hysterical, or lying, in her opinion. As long as you aren't killed, you should be fine, according to some. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Angelle

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, Angelle said:

Smart, but could also be considered to be escalating the situation, if they see her filming. People can get really pissed if they think they're being recorded.

Most women do not want to upset the guy as she has no idea what he is really capable of.

[Angelle]

53 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Most women do not want to upset the guy as she has no idea what he is really capable of.

Exactly.

[Taramere]

8 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

It's unclear why someone who raped or assaulted you would be at a meeting with you, rather than in jail.

What exactly do you mean by the word "attacked"? Do you mean harassment? Or actual physical contact or a violent crime such as rape or assault?

 

I can't speak for Sarasay's experience's, but I've certainly had unpleasant incidents at work that left me feeling attacked.  It's not necessarily sexual harassment either.  Male lawyers, getting right in my face and screaming at me just before a court hearing, so that I'm psyched out and panicky in the hearing.  Not often, but there are two guys I encountered professionally who would do that.  And they'd switch very easily from what looked like uncontrolled rage to being cool as you like in court while I was trying to get it together to avoid showing fear and anxiety.  One time it happened, there were a group of other lawyers standing nearby.  I could see them glancing over in that sort of disapproving way where you don't know whether they're disapproving of the guy for behaving like that, or thinking "I wonder what she said to annoy him".

Would I complain about that to anybody?  Not a chance.  I remember one time going back to the office and sounding off to the boss about it.  On that occasion I was seriously contemplating writing a complaint to our professional body about his behaviour (which my client also wanted to do, since she'd over heard it and was absolutely appalled).  My boss, a female, told me...don't you dare.  People will think you're weak.  And sadly, she was right.  They would.  So you just have to maintain as calm and collected a demeanour as you can and deal with it.   Because let's face it...if we do complain about incidents like that, we're going to get questions like "well, did he actually get physical with you, or did he just yell?  When you say he was in your face, was he an inch away? Two inches? Did he verbally threaten to assault you? Do you think it was rational for you to feel as though he was going to?  Is it possible he might deal with a male lawyer in exactly the same way?"

So in those situations, all you can really do is pull yourself together asap and get on with it.  Because let's face it...however much people talk on here about what is and what isn't acceptable, out in the world we face plenty of the types of situations that aren't supposed to happen.  If we complained every time, our credibility would be shot to pieces pretty quickly.

[Cookiesandough]

Yeah, it’s not just women versus the patriarchy in this case either. It’s more about a person of any gender being in a position of power over another in a way. I knew this guy that was verbally and  physically abused by his boss to the point that his boss tied to a chair with duck tape  over his mouth outside in the dead of winter. He didn’t say anything because he didn’t want to lose his job and livelihood that much. It took a bunch of people who witnessed it taking pics and going to HR to get that guy fired. Seriously messed up

Edited March 14, 2021 by Cookiesandough

[Taramere]

1 minute ago, Cookiesandough said:

Yeah, it’s not just women versus the patriarchy in this case either. It’s this is more about a person of any gender being in a position of power over another in a way. I knew this that was verbally and  physically abused by his boss to the point that his boss tied him to a chair with duck tape outside in the dead of winter. He didn’t say anything because he didn’t want to lose his job and livelihood that much. It took a bunch of people who witnessed it taking pics and going to HR to get that guy fired. Seriously messed up

I wish I could say "that's unbelievable" but it's amazing how a slow build up of abuse can end up in terrible situations.  I dread to think of all the incidents that poor guy probably went through before it culminated in such a horrible assault.  That's a case where it should be cut and dried that the boss not only gets fired but gets criminal charges pressed on him.  The trauma something like that would subject a person to.  Apart from everything else, the humiliation of it.  It's that thing of "why did this person think they could get away with treating you like that?"  Well, because they could get away with it.  But people who have been subjected to horrible treatment at work do, I think, internalise it and think "it's because it's me.  It's because while everybody talks about how this kind of thing is really not okay, so long as it's me it's happening to, apparently it is okay."

I'm so glad he had witnesses who got justice for him...though it doesn't sound as though that process of justice went far enough.

[elaine567]

15 minutes ago, Taramere said:

they'd switch very easily from what looked like uncontrolled rage to being cool as you like in court while I was trying to get it together to avoid showing fear and anxiety

This is a common abuse trick.
Some abusive men have no anger issues whatsoever.
They have merely learnt that feigning uncontrollable rage makes women (and some men) scared and thus compliant.
 

[Taramere]

31 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

This is a common abuse trick.
Some abusive men have no anger issues whatsoever.
They have merely learnt that feigning uncontrollable rage makes women (and some men) scared and thus compliant.
 

I know.  It's part of psyching you out.  But while I do get psyched out and anxious in a situation like that, it makes me the very opposite of compliant.  Both times, the guys involved didn't have a good case and were out of their depth.  So they were hoping to bluster and bully their way to success.  Somebody who really knows what they're doing in that situation is far more likely to be smooth and charming.  When somebody starts yelling at you like that before a court hearing, it's desperate.  But I think their psychology is often something along the lines of "well, even though she's going to win...I'm going to make it as unpleasant as possible for her." 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Taramere

[poppyfields]

51 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

 I knew this guy that was verbally and  physically abused by his boss to the point that his boss tied to a chair with duck tape  over his mouth outside in the dead of winter. He didn’t say anything because he didn’t want to lose his job and livelihood that much. It took a bunch of people who witnessed it taking pics and going to HR to get that guy fired. Seriously messed up

Yeah employees need to understand that this shyt (literally) is against the law (U.S. Labor Laws) and they have rights!  

They should report it to HR immediately and gather witnesses. 

That incident cookies should never had happened, the company is liable for this pathetic person's deplorable actions and I hope your friend received some sort of compensation monetarily for what he experienced. 

I work in this field of law and even with all the seminars companies are required to conduct warning supervisors against this behaviour, sadly this crap still happens, employees sue and often win big BIG $$$ awards.  

What that a-hole boss did amounted to kidnapping in the eyes of the law, along with a bunch of other extremely egregious causes of action. 

Ever see the movie "Swimming with Sharks" with Kevin Spacey as an abusive sadistic boss?  He did the same thing, tied his employee to a chair and verbally and physically abused him. 

It's appalling that this shyt still happens. 

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by poppyfields

[Cookiesandough]

4 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Yeah employees need to understand that this shyt (literally) is against the law (U.S. Labor Laws) and they have rights!  

They should report it to HR immediately and gather witnesses. 

That incident cookies should never had happened, the company is liable for this pathetic person's deplorable actions and I hope your friend received some sort of compensation monetarily for what he experienced. 

I work in this field of law and even with all the seminars companies are required to conduct warning supervisors against this behaviour, sadly this crap still happens, employees sue and often win big BIG $$$ awards.  

What that a-hole boss did amounted to kidnapping in the eyes of the law, along with a bunch of other extremely egregious causes of action. 

Ever see the movie "Swimming with Sharks" with Kevin Spacey as an abusive sadistic boss?  He did the same thing, tied his employee to a chair and verbally and physically abused him. 

It's appalling that this shyt still happens. 

 

I completely agree. I don’t really know what happened to the guy I guess I shouldn’t of said I know him. He was my ex boyfriends coworker and I saw the pic of the poor guy duct taped to the chair outside. The abuse did slowly escalate and people who worked with him said he was a narcissistic sociopath who just enjoyed degrading others.  He found it amusing. My ex ended up taking his spot after he was fired. I hope the guy did get compensated or something because he endured a lot of abuse in the 10 or so years he was there 😔

[poppyfields]

10 years?  How does that happen?  SMH

Re women speaking up, @d0nnivainin CA (and most states), if a woman slapped her boss in retaliation for an egregious act committed by him/her, she would be immediately fired and escorted out.

Physical assault is not right or the proper course of action under any circumstances.

Yes, in the workplace women need to understand that any sort of touching, whether sexually inappropriate or not, or inappropriate joking, flirting, being "hit on" or asked on a date by a person in a superior position is against the labor laws of the US. 

It all falls under the umbrella of sexual harassment.

The entire company is liable when this happens, and yes you should speak up - to the appropriate people, like the HR department.

They will investigate and take appropriate action.

Do not attempt to resolve yourself, by confronting the person, or worse, physically assaulting them by slapping.😳 

As an employee, a subordinate, you have rights!  Please don't ever forget that!  

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by poppyfields

[Taramere]

21 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

I completely agree. I don’t really know what happened to the guy I guess I shouldn’t of said I know him. He was my ex boyfriends coworker and I saw the pic of the poor guy duct taped to the chair outside. The abuse did slowly escalate and people who worked with him said he was a narcissistic sociopath who just enjoyed degrading others.  He found it amusing. My ex ended up taking his spot after he was fired. I hope the guy did get compensated or something because he endured a lot of abuse in the 10 or so years he was there 😔

I bet it was one of these places where there's a culture of hazing.  When I first started out in the workplace, there were a couple of times I encountered the "pranking the new girl as an initation" thing...but it was always harmless stuff.  One time I was sent to ask somebody for a "shift key"  I mean wipe my eyes and stitch up my sides nurse.  The hilarity of it.  But even if the humour was a bit lame, it was just a mild prank and everybody there was nice to work with.

But you hear of places where even in this day and age there's some sort of ludicrous and even dangerous hazing going on.  Probably generally in manual employment.  This one has shades of what happened to the poor guy you mentioned:

 https://www.businessinsurance.com/article/20190903/NEWS06/912330439/Workplace-hazing-emerges-from-the-shadows

That sort of culture is bound to be meat and drink to sadists.  They can do their thing and pretend that it's a just part of a bonding ritual.  I used to be pretty shocked about some of the stories that came out regarding hazing ceremonies in US sorority & fraternity houses.  

[Prudence V]

On 3/5/2021 at 1:49 AM, d0nnivain said:

So if you don't want to be a victim, use your voice.  Why is this so hard?  

I don’t know if anyone here follows Jack Monroe (@BootstrapCook) on Twitter. She posted a thread yesterday about her experience of being stalked. She spoke up, several times. She wasn’t heard. She’s the last person anyone could call “weak”. If you’re actually interested in why women don’t speak up, read her thread. 

[Fletch Lives]

14 hours ago, Angelle said:

Smart, but could also be considered to be escalating the situation, if they see her filming. People can get really pissed if they think they're being recorded.

- That's true, good point

[BC1980]

It could depend on the kind of job it is. In college, my boss followed me into a room and grabbed my breasts. He also called me at my home and asked to come over, presumably to see if I would have sex with him. He had been making inappropriate comments for awhile. Of course, I said no. I told him my roommate was there, but I always wonder what would have happened if I had been alone and hadn't said that. He could have found my address from my work files. 
 

Regarding the incident that happened at work, I rebuffed him and asked him to stop. I left the job soon afterwards, but it wasn't a job that was tied to my career aspirations. It was just a job to make some money in college. So it was easy to walk out and find something else. I later found out someone had accused this guy of sexual assault years earlier. I was in my early 20s, and he was in his 40s and married with children.