something wrong about how I communicate w men I date

[grays]

The problem is that I basically end up having to make all the moves, big and small.  So a big thing:  bringing up exclusivity, he looks at me like he’s been hit by a truck bc he assumed we were, I had NO IDEA.  Usually it’s small stuff tho:  

He texts:  I’m gonna be in town tomorrow.

Me: yay!

Him: Checking into my hotel...

ten more vacuous back and forths  before I just can’t take it anymore, and finally:

Me:  do you wanna hang out after your meeting?  

Him:  absolutely

as if this is a foregone conclusion, but we have had this convo probably 40+ times over 3 1/2 years and it has never gone this way:

Him: I’m gonna be in town tomorrow, wanna hang out?

I’ve fallen into this pattern with all of the men I’ve dated for years now.  The first time I really hung out with my current it happened bc I told him I was gonna make for dinner and he was like, “oooh my fave”.  At first I kinda missed it, but then I realized he was fishing for an invite, I capitulated and he enthusiastically accepted.  Second time I just asked out of the blue bc I didn’t feel like playing around, didn’t want to see if he was gonna, just wanted to get it over with.  But the third time I was just not gonna.  I really should not have to be the one to always put my neck out, ffs.  So he thought of a total excuse to drop by, wanted to bring me something that he said I could borrow that was truly not worth a special trip, but he clearly just wanted to come over.  I jumped at it bc I really wanted to see him and I could read between the lines enough to mostly believe he really wanted to see me, too, but it would’ve been so nice if he’d just said, “I wanna see you tonight.”  

I am so frustrated!  I don’t mind doing some or even more than my share of the hard stuff, but I can’t always be the one because eventually I start doubting myself.  I’m really in a pickle now with this current one bc he’s the first that I’ve *really* felt compatible with in like 6 years.  It’s put me into a whole different head space where I’m questioning things more, feeling less secure, hoping I’m not coming off as clingy.  But the last time I saw him he told me something really personal that he was worried about.  I texted him the next morning so that he wouldn’t have to text me first wondering if I was really ok with it, I wanted to let him know that it wasn’t throwing a wrench into things.  Then the next day, yesterday, I texted him first bc of all the crazy political stuff going on that I just wanted to talk about.  So now there’s been nothing since maybe 2 pm yesterday.  It’s the first time we’ve gone that long without some kind of communication in almost a month.  I feel like an idiot to think in terms of “it’s his turn to text me.”  But ffs, I’m sitting here wondering if I’ve said something wrong, he’s lost interest, etc, even tho when we talk it’s obvious that’s not the case.  

I think there’s a 90% chance he’s still feeling insecure about having told his secret and I truly don’t wanna make him squirm about that.  But he has to know I’m squirming over here or very well might be.  And I want whoever I’m involved with to be conscious of how I am/might be feeling and care enough to be able to take a chance on texting first to lmk things are cool.  That’s really the thing I want — for a man who wants to make me feel good badly enough that he will hit send even if he has to hold his breath while he does it and even if he’s feeling insecure, too.

Soooo, what is it about me or how I’ve behaved that is fueling this behavior in them?

 

[lovebooks]

I understand your frustration.   You should explain to him how you feel about him contributing equally to the relationship.  He should feel secure enough to plan dates, call you and text you every day.  Let him know how you feel in a serious conversation (not a fight)  What kind of relationship does he want?  That's not being clingy.  If he wants to be with someone who makes him doubt his own existence he should get a cat not a girlfriend.

[grays]

5 minutes ago, lovebooks said:

I understand your frustration.   You should explain to him how you feel about him contributing equally to the relationship.  He should feel secure enough to plan dates, call you and text you every day.  Let him know how you feel in a serious conversation (not a fight)  What kind of relationship does he want?  That's not being clingy.  If he wants to be with someone who makes him doubt his own existence he should get a cat not a girlfriend.

Ha!  See, that’s what I needed to hear!  I seriously had not considered just talking to him about it.  I had a nightmare vision of having this go on for so long that I actually exploded on him.  Talking about it would be so much better.  Of course, I have the urge to give it a little time to see what happens first.

[d0nnivain]

Some people just can't plan.  I've been married for 12+ years.  If I didn't plan our activities DH & I would never do anything.  Planning is easier then doing nothing. 

Our compromise was he's required to plan our anniversary.   Every once in a while I will say "I want you to plan a date for Saturday."  That was before Covid.  There's no place to go now.

In the beginning, you may need to hold back a bit more & let the guy come to you but with this guy because it's been going on so long, your the planner & that is all there is to it.  It's now your relationship dynamic & it will be almost impossible to change. 

[grays]

53 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

Some people just can't plan.  I've been married for 12+ years.  If I didn't plan our activities DH & I would never do anything.  Planning is easier then doing nothing. 

Our compromise was he's required to plan our anniversary.   Every once in a while I will say "I want you to plan a date for Saturday."  That was before Covid.  There's no place to go now.

In the beginning, you may need to hold back a bit more & let the guy come to you but with this guy because it's been going on so long, your the planner & that is all there is to it.  It's now your relationship dynamic & it will be almost impossible to change. 

This guy is new, just around a month since we met in person.  And I really don’t wanna make this our dynamic.  I wanna break out of it somehow.  Right now I’m sitting here feeling like I wanna just go ahead and text him a HRU? or something just to end the torture.  But I know if I do that it’s one more example of me showing him how much I like him with no assurance whatsoever that he likes me.  Like I said, I’m ok with doing a lot of that work but I don’t wanna keep blindly throwing myself at someone who’s not interested or appear too needy for someone who is.

[Wiseman2]

Sorry this is happening. It doesn't seem you're inspiring any particular behaviors in men one way or the other.

It seems you are choosing men who are distant geographically, emotionally and physically.

This particular guy seems to want a drive-by FWB situation.

Trying to create a full and satisfying relationship out of these casual situations can cause a lot of headaches and heartaches you don't need.

Next time, if someone isn't ready willing and able to date and won't get in with both feet, let them go early on.

[grays]

3 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Sorry this is happening. It doesn't seem you're inspiring any particular behaviors in men one way or the other.

It seems you are choosing men who are distant geographically, emotionally and physically.

This particular guy seems to want a drive-by FWB situation.

Trying to create a full and satisfying relationship out of these casual situations can cause a lot of headaches and heartaches you don't need.

Next time, if someone isn't ready willing and able to date and won't get in with both feet, let them go early on.

You are probably right.  I don’t want it to be true, but there are indicators pointing in that direction.  This is the first one in forever that I’ve wanted something more than casual with, so that kind of sucks.  It’s rare to find someone that I feel so comfortable with.  When we’re in a room together he’s very available emotionally, but if he’s not that keen on being in a room with me that’s not doing me any good.

[d0nnivain]

It's been a month & you feel like you always reach out 1st & you plan the dates.  It's a modern world & modern men have been taught to back off, not act so alpha & let women come to them.  This is what happens.

Also you have unreasonable expectations.  You are upset because it's been 24 hours since you last communicated.  That really isn't a long time so you need to sit on your hands some more & give him time.  By time I mean 3-4 DAYS.  Just because we have the ability to be in touch 24/7 doesn't mean that we have the obligation to check in with a new romantic partner at the same frequency as an established relationship.

Do not send the HRU text. 

When you do get together again, in person, have a discussion about your expectations & what you want from him.   Do NOT attempt this conversation over text.  That will backfire & there will be miscommunication.  You will also come across as needy rather than confident.  When you do see him, tell him point blank you would like it if he reached out more frequently.  He probably needs permission to do so because he's so afraid of being clingy & because he's been brainwashed by all the PUA BS that tells him to hang back. 

[introverted1]

14 hours ago, grays said:

we have had this convo probably 40+ times over 3 1/2 years

 

10 hours ago, grays said:

This guy is new, just around a month since we met in person. 

I'm confused. Is it 3 1/2 years or 1 month?

Are you exclusive?

How did you meet?

Are you local to each other?

[Ruby Slippers]

Age may be a factor in this - but I've never pursued a man in any way. I only like go-getters who are interested enough that they're motivated to take initiative. I'm completely turned off by passive men without any initiative. I let him ask me out, call, text, and initiate in pretty much all ways. My philosophy is to make myself attractive, convey my openness to romance, and let the interested men take it from there. You're the flower and he's the bee. Just about every man I've gotten serious with has told me it's so refreshing to date a woman who isn't chasing him down, that it's much more of a turn-on.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Ruby Slippers

[grays]

6 hours ago, introverted1 said:

 

I'm confused. Is it 3 1/2 years or 1 month?

Are you exclusive?

How did you meet?

Are you local to each other?

It’s two different guys!  Right now I’m feeling super frustrated about the current guy but it has happened so much in the last couple of years that I feel like it’s a pattern with me, and not sure if it’s something I’m doing or maybe like wiseman said, who I’m picking.  
 

I am not officially exclusive with the current guy, it has only been a month.  (These are strange times, though, and we have talked about some kind of covid-based exclusivity, that we are each only exposing ourselves to our children, no other adults).

We met on tinder.  It’s kinda funny bc I would not have swiped right on him if his profile had not been “1 mile away” and actually kind of convincingly looking for “friends.”  I really don’t have the emotional energy for OLD or multi-dating right now.  I have not been swiping as a regular thing.  And I deleted the app as soon as I met this guy, not bc I felt like he was “the one” but bc I just don’t feel like meeting a bunch of new people.  The initial attraction for me was mostly that he lives three blocks away and he’s more uptight about covid than I am.  I wasn’t expecting to like him for real.

[grays]

8 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

It's been a month & you feel like you always reach out 1st & you plan the dates.  It's a modern world & modern men have been taught to back off, not act so alpha & let women come to them.  This is what happens.

Also you have unreasonable expectations.  You are upset because it's been 24 hours since you last communicated.  That really isn't a long time so you need to sit on your hands some more & give him time.  By time I mean 3-4 DAYS.  Just because we have the ability to be in touch 24/7 doesn't mean that we have the obligation to check in with a new romantic partner at the same frequency as an established relationship.

Do not send the HRU text. 

When you do get together again, in person, have a discussion about your expectations & what you want from him.   Do NOT attempt this conversation over text.  That will backfire & there will be miscommunication.  You will also come across as needy rather than confident.  When you do see him, tell him point blank you would like it if he reached out more frequently.  He probably needs permission to do so because he's so afraid of being clingy & because he's been brainwashed by all the PUA BS that tells him to hang back. 

I’m going to really try to follow this advice.  I think you’re right.  I wish this wasn’t all complicated by the fact the I am really f’ing lonely and in need of entertainment.  He’s the only adult that I’ve had any contact with in probably six weeks, at least.  And there’s the added pressure of only having two nights a week that are kid-free.  

4 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Age may be a factor in this - but I've never pursued a man in any way. I only like go-getters who are interested enough that they're motivated to take initiative. I'm completely turned off by passive men without any initiative. I let him ask me out, call, text, and initiate in pretty much all ways. My philosophy is to make myself attractive, convey my openness to romance, and let the interested men take it from there. You're the flower and he's the bee. Just about every man I've gotten serious with has told me it's so refreshing to date a woman who isn't chasing him down, that it's much more of a turn-on.

I don’t mind doing some of the work, but I am not ok with chasing a man down.  If he’s not interested enough to show he’s interested, that’s no good for me.  I really like the flower and bee model.  I don’t think this guy is up to it, though.  I’m willing to give it a little time to figure out if that’s bc of lack of interest or fear of jumping in too quickly.  But I’m not willing to feel this uncomfortable for too long.

[introverted1]

So you understand that there is nothing you can do to change someone else, only your own behavior.  What do you think would happen if you stopped being the engine in your relationships?  Are you prepared to sit back and let whatever happens, happen? 

As I see it, you either do that or, as @d0nnivainsuggests, accept that you will be the planner/organizer for your relationships.

[Ruby Slippers]

2 minutes ago, grays said:

I don’t think this guy is up to it, though.

I agree. My suggestion is not to do any of the initiating, just let the proactive men approach you. That's what I've always done. I'd feel so turned off if I had to drive things with a man.

[poppyfields]

4 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Age may be a factor in this - but I've never pursued a man in any way. I only like go-getters who are interested enough that they're motivated to take initiative. I'm completely turned off by passive men without any initiative. I let him ask me out, call, text, and initiate in pretty much all ways. My philosophy is to make myself attractive, convey my openness to romance, and let the interested men take it from there. You're the flower and he's the bee. Just about every man I've gotten serious with has told me it's so refreshing to date a woman who isn't chasing him down, that it's much more of a turn-on.

Amen girlfriend!  

Edited January 8, 2021 by poppyfields

[LivingWaterPlease]

I'd just quit initiating and believe if he's interested he'll begin taking the lead. If he doesn't, so be it! Who wants to be in a R with a guy who is lukewarm about them?

I never contact guys. The last guy I was involved with (broke up with in June) chased me like crazy and complained that I never called him. As I got less and less interested in being more than a friend, the last month or two of the R, I began to call him some. This guy then began to back off contacting me! He was pushing me to marry him before that and often in touch with me during the day. He ended up breaking up with me because I went an entire weekend without calling him! This was after only a week or two of calling him now and then, not much. He hadn't even tried to call me during that last weekend but had gotten used to me doing some of the contacting the last month of our friendship and took offense that I went an entire weekend without calling him!

When he broke up with me (over email and text) I didn't respond. He then started trying to contact me again explaining in his texts he really hadn't wanted to break up with me. I didn't respond and after he contacted me once or twice more that was it. He let it go.

I personally believe testosterone causes men to chase women they're interested in so I just let it do its work!

What I do is act very enthused and warm toward a guy I really like when he contacts me! I make it worth their while to do so never trying to play it cool, so to speak. I have no problem with paying close attention to who they are and blatantly complimenting them (not swooning but close to it!) for their strong points!

Right now (four months into the R) I'm involved with someone who is moving very slowly in the relationship. I would like to be in touch with him more often but I'm sure not going to try to move things along faster bc I believe it would make me less attractive to him.

 

 

[Ruby Slippers]

^ Same. A man I like who takes the initiative to reach out to me will never have to wonder if I'm interested because I'm receptive, enthusiastic, and encouraging. 

[grays]

27 minutes ago, introverted1 said:

So you understand that there is nothing you can do to change someone else, only your own behavior.  What do you think would happen if you stopped being the engine in your relationships?  Are you prepared to sit back and let whatever happens, happen? 

As I see it, you either do that or, as @d0nnivainsuggests, accept that you will be the planner/organizer for your relationships.

I don’t mind planning.  The part I don’t like is not knowing where he stands.  I do make it clear that I’m interested and I think it’s un-generous for him to keep me wondering if he is interested.  Of course, it’s possible he’s not, but I kinda think he is.

In the mean time, the guy who randomly flies into town has been blowing up my phone.  He can always tell when my attention turns away from him.  I don’t want to have to not be interested in someone to get them interested in me, ffs.

9 minutes ago, LivingWaterPlease said:

I'd just quit initiating and believe if he's interested he'll begin taking the lead. If he doesn't, so be it! Who wants to be in a R with a guy who is lukewarm about them?

I never contact guys. The last guy I was involved with (broke up with in June) chased me like crazy and complained that I never called him. As I got less and less interested in being more than a friend, the last month or two of the R, I began to call him some. This guy then began to back off contacting me! He was pushing me to marry him before that and often in touch with me during the day. He ended up breaking up with me because I went an entire weekend without calling him! This was after only a week or two of calling him now and then, not much. He hadn't even tried to call me during that last weekend but had gotten used to me doing some of the contacting the last month of our friendship and took offense that I went an entire weekend without calling him!

When he broke up with me (over email and text) I didn't respond. He then started trying to contact me again explaining in his texts he really hadn't wanted to break up with me. I didn't respond and after he contacted me once or twice more that was it. He let it go.

I personally believe testosterone causes men to chase women they're interested in so I just let it do its work!

What I do is act very enthused and warm toward a guy I really like when he contacts me! I make it worth their while to do so never trying to play it cool, so to speak. I have no problem with paying close attention to who they are and blatantly complimenting them (not swooning but close to it!) for their strong points!

Right now (four months into the R) I'm involved with someone who is moving very slowly in the relationship. I would like to be in touch with him more often but I'm sure not going to try to move things along faster bc I believe it would make me less attractive to him.

 

 

Thanks for your story!  And lukewarm is crap, IMO, it will cause me to move along pretty quickly.

[d0nnivain]

1 hour ago, grays said:

I’m going to really try to follow this advice.  I think you’re right.  I wish this wasn’t all complicated by the fact the I am really f’ing lonely and in need of entertainment.  He’s the only adult that I’ve had any contact with in probably six weeks, at least.  And there’s the added pressure of only having two nights a week that are kid-free. 

Don't you have friends or adult relatives you can talk to? 

Find other ways to address your loneliness rather than investing too much in some guy you just met

[grays]

37 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

Don't you have friends or adult relatives you can talk to? 

Find other ways to address your loneliness rather than investing too much in some guy you just met

My only living relatives are my 11 and 17 yo sons.  I do have friends that I talk to regularly and for a lot of this pandemic I’ve seen one of them pretty regularly several times a week.  But since covid started going crazy here, maybe six weeks ago, I’ve only seen her once for a minute outside.

I think it woulda be better for me if this guy had just been a friend.  The first three meetings were walks and he showed no hint of wanting something romantic or sexual.  And I wasn’t feeling particularly attracted.  We had great conversations, tho.  Like we were staying up all night facetiming.  And then once he kissed me I was done for. 
 

I am trying not to invest too much, but sadly, his aloofness makes that harder, which I know is stupid.  

[LivingWaterPlease]

1 hour ago, grays said:

 

 

I am trying not to invest too much, but sadly, his aloofness makes that harder, which I know is stupid.  

It's not stupid at all, grays. A natural reaction to aloofness can be the need to try to pull the aloof person toward you. And a natural reaction to someone trying to pull one toward them can be aloofness. It seems to me this guy is sensing your neediness for him is why you're sensing he's aloof. He's pulling back because you're pushing in, it seems.  I'd definitely quit contacting him, were I you.

[grays]

Well, now I feel silly.  He called a little while ago, said “I’ve been wondering what happened to you,” and I said you could’ve always texted, to which he said “you were supposed to call me back.”  
 

I still think he shoulda called or texted and I’m still happy I didn’t.  He has done exactly the same thing to me a couple of times, said he had to get off the phone but would call back and then didn’t.  OTOH, I’m not holding it against him.  I’m happy I didn’t text first bc I kinda needed to know he was interested, he’s very hard to read about it.  I’m obvious, enthusiastic as you guys were saying.  

[Cersei]

I am glad you heard from him. 

But I think for your own peace of mind you should start to talk it out with him. Otherwise you could crack and screw it all up royally for yourself.

Why do I say this? I've been there, done that.  Lol

[grays]

OMG, you guys.  I really like him but he’s by far the most passive guy I’ve been involved with and that’s nearly as hard while I’m in a room with him as it is when I’m hoping he’ll call.  I think almost everyone I’ve been with since my ex-husband has been way more aggressive than average and I like that.  But I think the things I like about this guy are related to the passiveness.  I am very easy going, accepting, non-judgy and I like those qualities in other people and he’s got them and it feels related.  (Kinda weird how it all seems like a package even though I’m really not passive at all.)  

I dunno if this is a real incompatibility or something we can work out (like I can probably drive things if he can make me feel like he wants me, but it won’t feel good to me if I’m not sure of that).  It worries me some because it reminds me too much of my ex-h.  I think I’ve been good at avoiding any qualities that remind me of him, but it has struck me that he and I worked together for 25 years.  So, I’m not sure that the commonalities are a bad thing.

[smackie9]

IMO if you have to strategize to get a man to pay proper attention to you, you need to kick them to the curb.

Hun, date those who treat you the way you want to be treated, ( first and lasting impressions count! ) not because you feel comfortable around them...not a good enough reason. Actions speak louder than words. If their actions don't match what they tell you, that's a pretty good indication it's not going to work and you are being led on, messed with, and wasting your time.

Edited January 13, 2021 by smackie9