Cuties - Netflix film causes uproar and causes people to cancel accounts

[Ruby Slippers]

7 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

The thing I will agree on was that the marketing for the movie did push the sensationalistic aspects and didn’t delve into the more thoughtful aspects of the film. Netflix has apologized, but I suspect the controversy is likely gaining them more subscribers than they’re losing. 

100%. And this was 100% a marketing strategy. Of course in these dark times it works. These slime balls used little girls as sexual lures.

People including myself might have felt different if it had been presented as an examination and critique of meaningful issues. But that doesn't entice interest like little girl T&A does 🤮

[LivingWaterPlease]

7 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

I still think everybody on this board that’s vehemently against this film hasn’t seen it. Is that right? I understand not wanting to see it of course (lots of movies I don’t want to see too), but criticism of the movie without actually watching it can’t really be considered valid at all. 
 

 

You don't need to see the movie to know there is sexualization of children in it. You just need to see the posters and the trailers.  I've seen two posters for the movie that portrayed little girls in a totally inappropriate way.

Using sexualization of children to claim to be discouraging sexualization of children makes no sense at all.

 

 

[Veronica73]

Seriously? It’s not an after school special meant to teach kids a moral lesson. The director won an award for the film at the Cannes Film Festival. And don’t worry... the “Conservatives” don’t even enter into it. The girls are treated like girls. Nobody teaches them to dance that way. They mimic what they see on the internet.

(unless by “Conservatives” you mean people who are Muslim.)

Edited September 25, 2020 by Veronica73

[basil67]

@enigma32, Libby gave a full synopsis on the first post of page three.

That said, my understanding is the movie isn't about child exploitation.  Rather, the movie is about young girls growing up too quickly because of the sexed up media which has become commonplace in our world.   If there's an 'evildoer' in all of this, it's the culture of mainstream popstars choosing to make all the raunchy videos which go along with the popular music which tweens like.

None of this was a thing back when ugly people were able to make music.

Edited September 25, 2020 by basil67

[Veronica73]

Also, does anyone remember the last Super Bowl halftime show?

https://www.loveshack.org/forums/topic/592465-the-superbowl-halftime-show/?tab=comments#comment-7753337

Edited September 25, 2020 by Veronica73

[basil67]

15 minutes ago, Veronica73 said:

Also, does anyone remember the last Super Bowl halftime show?

https://www.loveshack.org/forums/topic/592465-the-superbowl-halftime-show/?tab=comments#comment-7753337

Interesting looking at the comments.    I particularly noticed that @LivingWaterPlease has stayed solid on her views between the two different threads despite being very different performers (respect 👍).   It's more problematic when adults don't see the connection between the performance and the kids who want to emulate it.

I think music media (and probably now Tic Tok etc) are increasingly blurring the lines between what is and isn't appropriate for general consumption.  What are tweens meant to make of their favourite musicians doing all those sexy moves in video clips?    Rhetorical question I guess, because as I mentioned early in the thread, I only allowed our daughter to watch indie music videos because I felt mainstream ones were so inappropriate for a girl.  I also overloaded her on information about photoshop, women in porn (when she was a bit older)  and body image to try and give her the tools a kid needs to tell the difference between fact and fiction.

 

 

 

[Veronica73]

I imagine it’s confusing. To say the least. I doubt that trying to hide it and pretend it doesn’t exist is the best thing. Look at all that is available on the internet. And you KNOW kids are seeing all of that. Even if you do a good job with internet security and monitoring their devices, etc. You can’t control what all their friends have access to. There is no real way to control what your kids see. That even is a plot point in this film. She steals her dad’s phone. That’s how she gained access to the videos she was watching.

[Veronica73]

*nevermind*

Edited September 25, 2020 by Veronica73

[Ellener]

20 minutes ago, basil67 said:

It's more problematic when adults don't see the connection between the performance and the kids who want to emulate it.

Where I live there's a huge problem with people trafficking, and the children and women who are being exploited have no say in the matter. That's what makes me annoyed when Ted Cruz jumps on his moral high horse. I remember saying when I first came to Texas, who the hell are all these men willing to take advantage of vulnerable women and children? That it's so easy to prostitute helpless people? If people knew the difference between right and wrong no one would go there. 

That's why people should not make movies like this one- it normalises something very bad.

I wouldn't watch anything like this, as sexually liberal as I am, because I don't think anyone should ever accept child abuse for a minute, and the people who try to justify it as artistic are wrong. 

 

 

 

 

 

[basil67]

I guess the difference is that that I view child abuse as something which could be punishable by law.    While I don't like child acting and modelling, I don't see a that playing a role about a girl who's actions have been negatively influenced by media would be categorised as being abusive.   Especially when the role they are acting is a cautionary tale.

 

[Libby1]

4 hours ago, enigma32 said:

Ok, so everyone keeps saying that this film is supposed to be a message against the culture that at first glance at least, it seems to promote. So, to those who have actually watched the film in its entirety, allow me to ask a few questions so I can figure out exactly how the message differs from what the trailer seems to portray.

Who are the main antagonists in the film? It would be easy to make this culture of sexualizing children seem bad if the film portrayed those doing it as the bad guys of the story. So, in Cuties, who is the bad guy? Is it the girls dancing sexually? Is it the people who teach them to dance like strippers? Or is it the Conservatives?

 I'm not keen on these forum exchanges where one poster assumes the role of cross examiner and demands that others put forth great effort.  You could always watch the film, and try to answer your own questions which is the point of films like this (ie to make you challenge yourself). But to answer purely according to my perception of the film (which may be completely different from yours were you to watch it)

Some antagonists

1. An older dance troupe - one of whom pulls down the main character's trousers when she attacks them for bullying them (and the other members of the troupe take photos of her which they intend to upload to social media.

2. Social media - particularly a platform with its false and shallow methods of temporarily propping up ego with "likes", which results in the insecure main character going further and further in the bid to get attention and likes.  In this film it's like an extension of the school playground filled with short term, shallow friendships that can quickly turn into feuds, bullies and social humiliation - except that on social media there's no system of supervision from caring, involved adults.  Just people making money out of the whole thing.

3. The adults running the dance contest.  Again, these contests often tending to be money making vehicles (and in this case there seem to be more than a few lecherous audience members).

4. Islam, controversially, to the extent that a fundamentalist version of it in this film results in the main character being given negative messages about the life that awaits her as a woman...these messages helping to push her towards what initially seems to be a form of escapism and an opportunity to make friends (getting in with the dance troupe).

5. The girl's father - who is taking a second wife.  Although he isn't present in the film, throughout the film there's a sense of waiting for his arrival with his new bride. They will move into the small, shabby apartment with the main character, her siblings and mother.  A special room has been set aside for them, which is decorated in a glammed up style, in sharp contrast with the rest of the apartment.  The mother is under pressure to pretend to friends and family that she's pleased and happy with this arrangement, but Amy sees her quietly crying about the situation....which puts her (Amy) under additional stress.  The director has said that this mirrors her own family situation as a child.

6. Various other antagonists.  Amy herself - the hypersexualised dance videos she watches and gets ideas from (before her input, the dances the troupe perform are relatively tame), the pressure to consume, the celebration of people who have money etc.  Amy steals from her mother in order to go on a shopping binge buy sexy clothes for the dance troupe  - which buys her temporary glory with the rest of the girls.

How does the story end for the girls that are dancing sexually? An easy way to make sexual dancing seem unappealing would be to have a story where this sort of dancing has a really bad effect on the girls doing those dances. Are the girls able to enrich their lives or gain some advantage via their dancing?

Films like this don't win acclaim because they opt for easy routes to pass on messages or manipulate the audience to accept a certain message.  The point of the film is to get you, the viewer, thinking.  I believe the director's hope would be that once a person starts thinking more deeply about issues like this, they'll start trying to think of solutions to the unpleasant situation this character finds herself in.  For instance "what sort of responsibly supervised facilities and resources might help children in this situation to avoid the ultimately harmful choices the character is making?"

As to how the story ends, as basil said...I already gave a precis of the storyline.  Towards the end, during the contest, the main character suddenly freezes during the contest and walks off, leaving the rest of the troupe to continue without her.  So basically she's encouraged them to adopt these hypersexualised moves and then betrays them...having got herself into a situation where there's no "good guy" option.  Either she would continue with the dance, despite the sudden bout of trauma and self loathing it invokes in her, or she would betray her friends by walking out on them in the middle of the dance - which is the option she goes for.  There's no indication that any of the girls will gain any advantage from the dancing, beyond the temporary sense of popularity I mentioned, which comes from getting likes on social media.  There isn't a sense of the dance contest leading to anything great.  It has an aura of exploitation by adults about it.

At the end of the film, do the main protagonists ever come out and say they regret sexual dancing for children? Maybe the film shows a future sequence of the girls as older, wiser ladies, regretting their experiences when they were younger? Do they frame this story as a regrettable learning experience that others should not do? Is there any obvious message like this at the end? 

Again, it's a French arthouse film, not an episode of the Springer show.  You, the viewer, are expected to put forth effort too...rather than simply waiting for the film to spoon feed you lessons, messages and conclusions.  

Please, tell me what story mechanics the film uses to send a message that is against child exploitation. Don't just repeat that we all need to watch (support) the film to find out. 

That's a huge part of the problem here.  You don't want to put forth the effort of watching a film that you may well (if you can't put yourself in the shoes of a black 11 year old girl) find quite boring for the most part.  You just want somebody to deliver the main lessons and messages.  But that's not how films like this function.  The point of them is to make you the viewer think - not just about the film, but about who you are and what feelings, thoughts and responses it triggers in you.  I watched it as a woman who recalls being an 11 year old girl, and although I'm not a black immigrant it nonetheless felt fairly easy and natural to place myself in the shoes of the main character thereby seeing things from her perspective.  That would probably be a far more taxing challenge for men, who may find it impossible to see things from the perspective of an 11 year old girl, or who may resist trying to see things from her perspective.  In which case, it's going to be a boring film for those men to watch.     

But if the viewer is capable of placing themselves into the main character's shoes - feeling her desperation to escape a grim situation, understanding the temptation to join the dance troupe, become popular etc, then it's incredibly jarring for all sorts of reasons to suddenly be confronted with these lingering, voyeuristic shots that push the viewer into "passive watcher/consumer of hypersexualised culture" mode and reduce the children into "objects/consumables".  Which is indeed, a controversial move which rightly gives rise to concerns about child exploitation.  

I've already mentioned in previous posts steps that the director took to try to counter the potential harms involved in employing children in roles like this, but nonetheless it's right and natural that people continue to have concerns about something like that.  What I believe is ignorant is to refuse to believe that the director had strong, non-salacious reasons for including those shots.  With those lingering shots, she's no longer inviting you to walk in the main character's shoes.  She's confronting you, the viewer, with the question of what kind of a consumer you are?  What are your consuming choices?  Are you generally happy with those choices?  Will you still be happy with those choices after watching this film?    

Part of the function of films like this is to hold a mirror up to you the viewer.  Demanding that others tell you what you should think of the film, how you should perceive it, what it all means etc is a bit like asking somebody else to look in a mirror and use what they see there to tell you who you are.   

 

[jspice]

3 hours ago, basil67 said:

@enigma32, Libby gave a full synopsis on the first post of page three.

That said, my understanding is the movie isn't about child exploitation.  Rather, the movie is about young girls growing up too quickly because of the sexed up media which has become commonplace in our world.   If there's an 'evildoer' in all of this, it's the culture of mainstream popstars choosing to make all the raunchy videos which go along with the popular music which tweens like.

None of this was a thing back when ugly people were able to make music.

I was talking to a colleague from Spain last week about his 4 kids. Kid 3 is 5 and he was very upset because “she’s 5 but she dances like she’s 25”. She got a stern talking to. They’re very hands-on parents and the kids are into sports and outdoor activities so they don’t even have a lot of tv or internet time. 
 

Needless to say, the kids’ YouTube time is even more limited now 
You can’t get them away from it. It’s everywhere. 

[Libby1]

I'd like to add something.  A long time ago, I worked in a residential setting with troubled teenagers (mainly 12 to 16 year olds).  I think this film might be for 15 + only, but it's a film I'd have nonethetheless watched with them.  Art is one of the things that can break down barriers and get conversation going.  With your average teen, if you were to ask "what do you think about some of these videos on Tic Toc?  How do they affect you?" you'd probably get a shrug.  I mean maybe not with very middle class, articulate American kids (who often seem to be very confident and self assured), but with the sort of kids I used to work with you wouldn't have got much of a response.

But watch a film like this with a group of girls who are going through stuff you don't know about, and there's a good chance that they're going to start talking.  I think that's a big part of why I feel so strongly about this film, and really quite angry with all the people who want to cancel it because of the way it makes them feel.  It just seems like such a closeted...and I hate to use this word, but privileged perspective.  The child actors who featured in it are certainly old enough to have conversations about what a film like this might accomplish in terms of helping people to understand what life can be like for teenage girls.  My guess is that they could probably give most of the adults on this thread a run for their money when it came to debating whether a film like this should be made.

People who don't have any role to play in the life of a teenage girl, or who are very satisfied that they're great parents whose kids will make great choices, aren't obliged to watch it if they don't want to.  But there are children out there who don't find it easy to talk, and who are not at all easy for adults to engage with, who might actually end up having a real conversation as a result of watching this film with an adult.  And before anybody starts with the "it's not appropriate for 12 to 15 year olds" (because I just know somebody will)...I think anybody who has worked with troubled teenagers knows that their entire lives have often been the epitome of inappropriate.  Sitting down and watching Frozen with kids like that might be nice, but it's really unlikely to lead to any helpful, meaningful conversations.

This is exactly the sort of film I would want to watch with a troubled teenage girl who was making bad choices.  It doesn't lecture or preach.  It conveys a series of situations that create talking points...and that can be invaluable when you're trying to break down barriers and find out what's really going on in a young person's life.  If you don't like this film or feel so disgusted by it that you need a dose of smelling salts to help you recover, then by all means give it a body swerve.  But don't queue up to ban something that you can't be bothered to even try to understand.

[Fletch Lives]

21 hours ago, Libby1 said:

22 hours ago, vla1120 said:

At least "Cuties" had professionals on staff to ensure the girls were given emotional support  while they were filming this important message. 

They did, and in fact the film was approved by child protection authorities in France.

Doucouré wrote an op-ed in the Washington Post Sept. 16 called “I directed ‘Cuties.’ This is what you need to know about modern girlhood.” agreeing with Netflix’s statement.

She said that at no point were any of the child actors in danger on set, and that the crew employed a trained counselor.

So if it's okay and innocent to make a movie with tweens like that, why did they need the counselors?

I call BS

[Libby1]

3 minutes ago, Fletch Lives said:

So if it's okay and innocent to make a movie with tweens like that, why did they need the counselors?

I call BS

Who is claiming that the film is some cute, innocent thing?  There is a huge grey area between "okay and innocent" and "utterly unacceptable" in lots of areas of life.  Whether we're adults or kids we find ourselves having to negotiate those areas.  A role like that, which explores difficult issues, boundaries, the bad choices people they can make etc is bound to be taxing for child.  That doesn't mean a blanket ban should be imposed on child actors playing difficult, controversial roles.  For a child who has serious acting ambitions, a role like that could set them on the path to a very promising career that they're passionate about.  But because highly sensitive and controversial issues are involved It's a situation in which judgement calls have to be made.  Is the child psychologically equipped to take on the role?  Have the got the mental strength and maturity? Bearing in mind that even a child with far more of that special mix of sensitivity, maturity and strength might struggle with such a role, what extra provisions can be put in place to support them in a difficult role?

 Nobody - absolutely nobody who is commenting in any serious way about this film is depicting it as some cutesy, fun, innocent thing.    It's far from being those things, but that doesn't mean a film like this shouldn't be made.  There are kids out there who compete in sports that could get them killed or seriously injured....but they compete nonetheless because they're passionate about it, and everybody involved puts as many safeguards in place as they can so that the child can get that opportunity to participate while reducing the risks involved.

 

[Ellener]

3 hours ago, Libby1 said:

With your average teen, if you were to ask "what do you think about some of these videos on Tic Toc?  How do they affect you?" you'd probably get a shrug. 

My son said, mum I've watched all kinds of stuff on the internet but I could not watch this- he said people will use this as legitimised child porn. And I'm afraid he's right.

I too worked with young people some years ago @Libby1 and the biggest problem in their lives, no one grown up around them ever had any boundaries. So they got used as surrogate-adult-caretakers, as punching bags, as sex objects. 

And of course it totally messed them up, for a while at least. 

I remember one day running down the street yelling 'she's twelve years old' trying to protect a young woman from men who were using her for sex, I also sat with the same child many times reading Roald Dahl stories and trying to convince her the world is not just a bad place.

She never believed me. 

This kind of media is powerful and evil and wrong.

Just because I doubt Ted Cruz, I won't disagree with him on this one. 

 

 

 

[Weezy1973]

Sometimes it seems like adults forget what they were like when they were younger. Can’t any of the people condemning the movie remember being around this age and wanting to be liked, accepted, or popular? Kids sometimes make poor choices in that pursuit, and I’ve often suspected that kids from troubled homes make even worse choices because the “love” they get from being popular is replacing the love they should be feeling from their parents. 
 

I’m a guy, so dancing and sexuality was never a thing when I was young. But drinking and drugs were. And stealing chocolate bars from the corner store. And fighting. So if nothing else, being able to relate to tweens wanting to be accepted and liked should be an almost universal. 

[Libby1]

1 minute ago, Ellener said:

I remember one day running down the street yelling 'she's twelve years old' trying to protect a young woman from men who were using her for sex, I also sat with the same child many times reading Roald Dahl stories and trying to convince her the world is not just a bad place.

She never believed me. 

 

Working with troubled young people is definitely no picnic.  You need that combination of taking a hard line at times - not just to impose boundaries but to let them know that you're not easily intimidated - after all, they might need you to fight their corner.  You also need to be able to hear some really bad stuff calmly, without reacting in a way that'll make them regret disclosing things to you.  There's definitely a place for innocent escapism for kids who have experienced a lot of darkness in their lives, but they also need to know that you can handle the dark stuff.  

Your Roald Dahl anecdote reminds me of one of my favourite memories of my niece.  She was very small at the time, but old enough to be introduced to good old Dr Seuss.  I was reading Fox in Socks to her, which I absolutely loved as a child. There I was, getting carried away with all the "Fox on clocks on bricks and blocks. Bricks and blocks on Knox on box...." stuff.  It's a lot of fun to read, and reading Dr Seuss aloud was one of the things I'd really been looking forward to when I first became an auntie.   Suddenly I felt this tiny hand rest on my arm.  When I looked up from the book, I saw that her face was a picture of concern as she told me "you can take the book home with you, if you like." 

 

 

[vla1120]

I feel like we're going around in circles and I'm trying to think of a way to express my thoughts about this in a way that is easily understood.  Maybe this will help.  In my opinion, canceling Netflix because of "Cuties" is kind of like swatting at one fly in a room infested with flies. If you're going to swat at that fly, you should also swat at the other flies that have a much more direct affect on our young girls - dance competitions and beauty pageants. In reality, a fly swatter wouldn't do the trick. You would need a spray bomb. 

When my girls were young and participated in dance, there were times I kept them out of certain dances because I didn't like the costumes or the suggestive moves in the routines. They didn't understand why I wouldn't let them dance when all their friends got to dance. It was my job to keep them from being viewed as sexual beings when they were underage. Eventually, it got so ridiculous that I removed them from competition teams and we went to dance companies who did the Nutcracker and more traditional ballet theater. You have to ask yourself what is wrong with the parents who actually allow their young girls to dance and dress suggestively for dance competitions and pageants - and they get REWARDED for that behavior. What message is THAT sending?

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

Kids sometimes make poor choices in that pursuit, and I’ve often suspected that kids from troubled homes make even worse choices because the “love” they get from being popular is replacing the love they should be feeling from their parents. 

I don't know if it is that straightforward, but I do think that normalising the sexual behaviours of children for the entertainment of adults is wrong. 

Some years ago when I was working as a social worker there was a theory that parents should look at pornography with their children, I threw a fit in this meeting and said no adult should ever ever be in a situation where they are sexually aroused in the presence of a child.

It is always up to the adult to be the adult in a situation and show self-control and self-awareness.

When they don't horrible things are going to occur.

 

 

[Weezy1973]

56 minutes ago, Ellener said:

I don't know if it is that straightforward, but I do think that normalising the sexual behaviours of children for the entertainment of adults is wrong. 

Agreed.

However, the dance in this movie is not normalizing sexual behaviours of children. But, if you’ve only seen the trailer, I can definitely see how one would think that it does. If you watch the movie you see how and why the girls end up dancing in a sexualized way. Part of it is emulating a video seen of a pop star, and another part is a desire to be accepted and popular. Both these seem like a reflection of real life.
 

And in the movie, the dance was not glorified. Or seen as awesome or good. It was inappropriate and resulted in very conflicting feelings for the characters. 
 

Out of curiosity did anybody in the thread see the movie “Little Miss Sunshine”? Were you equally appalled by the final dance number in that movie?

[Ellener]

I don't watch a lot of things which are mainstream because they seem inappropriate or harmful to culture @Weezy1973

The issue with this movie seems to be clear- some people will use it as child pornography, and other people don't want to support that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Weezy1973]

1 minute ago, Ellener said:

I don't watch a lot of things which are mainstream because they seem inappropriate or harmful to culture @Weezy1973

The issue with this movie seems to be clear- some people will use it as child pornography, and other people don't want to support that.

 

Yup totally understand. Nobody should be forced to watch anything. But if we ban the movie, we’re getting into “thought police” territory. Best solution is to let the movie continue streaming, and those that don’t want to watch it don’t.  

[Veronica73]

10 minutes ago, Ellener said:

I don't watch a lot of things which are mainstream because they seem inappropriate or harmful to culture @Weezy1973

The issue with this movie seems to be clear- some people will use it as child pornography, and other people don't want to support that.

 

And some people will use photos posted of children in bathing suits on social media “as child pornography”. Or even take their own photos of other people’s children at the beach or pool.(By “Using as child pornography” I’m assuming you mean they are going to use the film to jerk off to. If that’s not what you mean, please let me know.)

[Veronica73]

Most kids who are sexually abused are abused by trusted adults, often adults in their own immediate families.