Anti-Masker protesters spreading the infection

[QuietRiot]

A friend of mine in a neighboring county of Florida sadly posted an article of a streetfull of anti-mask protesters (without masks on, of course) protesting the new mandate in their county.  When the Florida Health Department would post the big 3's of "Social distancing, wear a mask in public, and wash your hands", comments blow up on that post with anti-maskers and maskers a like. The made-up, fake ID cards saying "I can't wear a mask, and I should be allowed entry...anywhere". So on and so on.  Of course, most of the commenters where I live are uneducated rednecks, so...that doens't help matters.

Are you getting the same kind of flack in your communities?

I dunno, I just feel that people are just making up arguments, to make them sound like facts...in order to get what they want. It' slike "Why I don't want to eat my Brussels sprouts!" Also, I liken this new normal to that of the health inspectors citing businesses for not having people wear masks. In addition to looking for rat turds, they'll be keeping an eye out for masks.

 

[d0nnivain]

there will always be people who don't want to conform.  People still don't wear seatbelts, or motorcycle helmets.  There are people who won't use condoms.  

People make dumb choices all the time.  All you can do to protect yourself is stay away from them

[QuietRiot]

Just now, d0nnivain said:

there will always be people who don't want to conform.  People still don't wear seatbelts, or motorcycle helmets.  There are people who won't use condoms.  

People make dumb choices all the time.  All you can do to protect yourself is stay away from them

Wow..yeah, good points! I remember some southern woman that said her older family members said they don't believe in cholesterol much less the Covid.  Tons of people out there that don't care about their health, but this time, them not caring is impacting other people that do not want to get infected.

[Kitty Tantrum]

1. Not okay to acquire virus through natural spread.. this must be stopped.

BUT

2. Everyone better line up to acquire the virus as soon as it's available in a syringe.

🤡 🤡 🤡

[FMW]

You can google for the story, but a vintage store Antique Sugar in Phoenix posted this sign:

“If you choose not to wear a mask, we respectfully ask that you postpone your visit.  We’ll be happy to debate the efficacy of masks when this is all over and you come in to sell your dead grandmother’s clothes."

[vjk]

They are now making masks mandatory where I live.  The problem I have with a mask requirement is that it might become permanent like wearing pants. Some other people probably feel the same.

[NuevoYorko]

1 hour ago, enigma32 said:

As someone who works with the public on the daily, I can assure you that the people who refuse to wear masks are much more diverse than what the media makes it seem. 

More in common among them than differences.  It takes a pretty specific set of traits to go that route.

[Ellener]

Face-covering now mandatory indoors in public in Texas.

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Ellener
clarification

[QuietRiot]

On 7/2/2020 at 4:04 PM, Kitty Tantrum said:

1. Not okay to acquire virus through natural spread.. this must be stopped.

BUT

2. Everyone better line up to acquire the virus as soon as it's available in a syringe.

🤡 🤡 🤡

Of course, vaccines have existed for a while.That's a no brainer. And it sounds like you don't know how vaccines work, the virus in the vaccine is attenuated or particles. Not the real live virus.  (In layman's, not the real deal that is spreading naturally).  

[Kitty Tantrum]

The vaccine isn't even in production yet. I know quite a lot about how vaccines work, and until they've ACTUALLY DEVELOPED ONE and put it through all of the standard testing and control procedures, it's anyone's guess what the outcome will be of a mass-vaccination campaign.

I hear they're using human guinea pigs in Africa right now for preliminary testing. Some folks in Africa are up in arms about it... because vaccine testing on people in third world countries has enough history of going poorly (sterilization, injury, vaccine-strain illness, etc.).

I swear, people in first-world countries broadly have such a simplistic idea of how vaccination works big-picture. We only ever get the "safest" version - proved through trial and error in third-world countries, and people think it's just as simple as "make vaccine, eradicate disease." It's a whole lot messier than that, even when they DO follow all of the standard procedures for development and testing, and DON'T rush it through into production, like they're doing now.

Given that coronaviruses and other respiratory illnesses are notoriously difficult to vaccinate against effectively without unacceptable side effects (this is also pretty well-known), I'll be very surprised if this anywhere near as straightforward as people are hoping.

And even with our "safe" vaccines that are "tried and true" - they tell you to stay the F away from the very elderly and immune-compromised for a period of time after receiving them. I remember someone wasn't allowed to visit me in the hospital after giving birth because they'd been recently vaccinated.

It's a tenuous thread of hope, at best. At worst, pushing a vaccine through too quickly could have some pretty dire consequences for recipients AND their contacts.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Kitty Tantrum

[QuietRiot]

11 minutes ago, Kitty Tantrum said:

The vaccine isn't even in production yet. I know quite a lot about how vaccines work, and until they've ACTUALLY DEVELOPED ONE and put it through all of the standard testing and control procedures, it's anyone's guess what the outcome will be of a mass-vaccination campaign.

I hear they're using human guinea pigs in Africa right now for preliminary testing. Some folks in Africa are up in arms about it... because vaccine testing on people in third world countries has enough history of going poorly (sterilization, injury, vaccine-strain illness, etc.).

I swear, people in first-world countries broadly have such a simplistic idea of how vaccination works big-picture. We only ever get the "safest" version - proved through trial and error in third-world countries, and people think it's just as simple as "make vaccine, eradicate disease." It's a whole lot messier than that, even when they DO follow all of the standard procedures for development and testing, and DON'T rush it through into production, like they're doing now.

Given that coronaviruses and other respiratory illnesses are notoriously difficult to vaccinate against effectively without unacceptable side effects (this is also pretty well-known), I'll be very surprised if this anywhere near as straightforward as people are hoping.

And even with our "safe" vaccines that are "tried and true" - they tell you to stay the F away from the very elderly and immune-compromised for a period of time after receiving them. I remember someone wasn't allowed to visit me in the hospital after giving birth because they'd been recently vaccinated.

It's a tenuous thread of hope, at best. At worst, pushing a vaccine through too quickly could have some pretty dire consequences for recipients AND their contacts.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-vaccine-approved-military-use-china-1.5630947

 

Ad5-nCoV vaccine has also been approved for human testing in Canada

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by QuietRiot

[Inflikted]

The whole "anti-mask" thing just seems so ridiculous to me. My three coworkers are all vehemently anti-mask (and also against any and all restrictions businesses are using for peoples' health and safety), and my boss is just borderline insufferable with her opinions on the matter. She says "It's just the flu", she says everyone is going to get it and that we should stop fighting it with restrictions and just let it run its course across the country and be done with it. She says telling someone to wear a mask is against the constitution. She whines that you can't breathe when wearing a mask, that you get overheated when wearing a mask, that you can't understand what people are saying when you wear a mask. Now that places are starting to fully mandate masks, she's complaining because "those dirty democrats are a bunch of whiny entitled 'for the greater good' cowards trying to control us by making us wear masks". She balks at the idea of masks being to protect others because, as she says, "I don't care about anyone else. Why should I? I take care of myself, you need to take care of yourself. I don't need to worry about other people's problems".

I wear a mask every day at work, sometimes for hours at a time. I'm short, a little chubby, and I had asthma when I was a kid. Yet, I don't have trouble breathing in it. I don't get overheated. I don't feel like it impairs my speech in any way. If I can do it, anyone can. Do I enjoy wearing a mask? No. Is it a little inconvenient? Sure. But it's not a big deal at all.

As far as "having to take care of yourself", yeah, that's all well and good in situations where we're not talking about a highly contagious disease that we still don't have effective treatment against, and is still a bit of a coin toss as to whether it's going to affect you badly or not. Heck, even if it doesn't kill you, if you end up having to go the hospital, you'll probably end up spending days, if not weeks there, possibly end up on a ventilator for a time, and then you walk away with a big hospital bill hanging over your head. On top of that, it sounds like it's not super uncommon for recovered people to end up with permanent organ damage or very long lasting after effects. So, if you want to play fast and loose with your own health, that's your prerogative, but when it potentially directly affects everyone around you, that's a real crappy mentality to have. Like, if you want to go run through busy traffic and possibly get hit by a car, go for it, be my guest; I can't catch "getting hit by a car" from you. But when we're talking about an easily transmissible disease, "You do you, I'mma do me" doesn't cut it.

And this whole "My rights! My freedoms!" thing is so stupid. It comes down to the fact that coronavirus has become a political issue instead of a scientific issue. 

My boss acts like wearing a mask and adhering to some safety restrictions is having to bend over backwards and carry the entire weight of the world on your shoulders just so some strangers around you don't get "a flu". She rants nearly every day about this stuff. About the masks, the restrictions, the "crooked democrats trying to control us and cheat Trump out of office", etc. It's so frustrating to listen to day in and day out. And the funny thing is, she sits there calling democrats a bunch of whiny entitled cowards, but then also sits there whining and throwing temper tantrums about the idea of wearing a mask. Ironic much? It's like a child throwing a fit because they don't want to eat their vegetables.

The reality is that sometimes unfortunate things happen in the world, and everyone has to adapt to them. Like, I was too young to be aware of what effects it had on travel at the time, but I imagine 9/11 resulted in a lot of strict new policies to air travel, at least for a while. Sometimes things like that happen, and they alter our familiar routines, and it sucks, but that's life. I wish the world were normal again, myself, I mean, who doesn't? But we can't just refuse to properly deal with a bad situation just because it'd mean our lives become slightly less inconvenient for a time. That's utterly ridiculous, and completely asinine. But again, from my perspective, it seems like it's a result of coronavirus becoming a "political" issue.

Edited July 6, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed political comments in non-political forum.

[Kitty Tantrum]

4 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-vaccine-approved-military-use-china-1.5630947

 

Ad5-nCoV vaccine has also been approved for human testing in Canada

 

Will be interesting to see how that goes! I stand by my skepticism for the moment, though.

[QuietRiot]

9 hours ago, Kitty Tantrum said:

Will be interesting to see how that goes! I stand by my skepticism for the moment, though.

I know, right, there is some opinions that this looks promising that they are using military as test subjects, heard later in the year they may be doing this with the US Army....but I am kind of sliver of optimism that being how medically advanced we are...that our progress may not exactly mirror previous vaccine development. Also, I'm sure staff and manpower are putting in more hours on this. 

There is talks not to rush things on this. I heard something on how a polio batch was botched, but by only one company and kids got the brunt of its side-effects.

[elaine567]

First human volunteers were injected with the UK  "vaccine" on 23rd April.

[NuevoYorko]

My sister is in a complicated situation.  She is a veterinarian.  Sold her practice, with a caveat that she will work there part time to ease her client base into the new ownership.  She also agreed to a 7 year non compete contract (within 4o miles of the office) as a term of the sale.

There is an "indoor mask" mandate in her state.  Prior to this,  most of the vets (I live in a different stat but here it is the norm as well) are not letting people inside of the offices.  You call, tech comes and gets the animal, takes it in, whatever happens happens, call client with fees, you pay by CC over phone, they bring pet out.

Not where she works.  He is strongly anti mask and will not enforce mandate.  Every client comes in.  The waiting room is small.  Clients can go in the exam rooms with pets.  They often do.  There will be a tech, the vet, and the client.  Maybe their partner or kid.  Very small closed space.

The whole community tends towards pro-trump, anti-science, and militantly anti-mask, so clients and other employees don't wear masks either.

One of the techs was on vacation in Arizona which is a hotspot.  She was coming back to work the day after returning.

My sister has spoken to the owner often and very diplomatically, because she is that way.  They are both "science people" so it seemed reasonable to expect that he would "believe in" coronavirus, but, no.  

Finally she has resigned.  The vet association offers legal counsel to members.  She had a session and was advised that she may qualify for unemployment though she quit, under these circumstances.

She does not wish to "whistle blow" on the owner, but it may get to that as the labor board looks into her application for unemployment.  He could get shut down for defying the state mandate, which the governor has said will be enforced.  She doesn't want that, but she also doesn't want COVID-19 or to be broke.

She is not ready to fully retire but she lives in a rural community and there are not really any options for her, given the terms of the non-compete, that are closer than an hour commute each way.  

 

[Ellener]

6 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

I heard something on how a polio batch was botched, but by only one company and kids got the brunt of its side-effects.

Yes, 1955, The Cutter Incident.

The Cutter incident had an ambivalent legacy. On the one hand, it led to the effective federal regulation of vaccines, which today enjoy a record of safety `unmatched by any other medical product'. On the other hand, the court ruling that Cutter was liable to pay compensation to those damaged by its polio vaccine—even though it was not found to be negligent in its production—opened the floodgates to a wave of litigation. As a result, `vaccines were among the first medical products almost eliminated by lawsuits'. Indeed, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program was introduced in 1986 to protect vaccine manufacturers from litigation on a scale that threatened the continuing production of vaccines. Still, many companies have opted out of this low-profit, high-risk field, leaving only a handful of firms to meet a growing demand (resulting in recent shortages of flu and other vaccines).

The contemporary climate of risk aversion and predatory litigation deters the introduction of new vaccines and discourages innovation in a field which boasts some of the most impressive achievements of modern medicine. To protect vaccine development—and ultimately public health —Offit proposes that the option of suing vaccine manufacturers should be stopped and that compensation should only be available through the official programme.

( from Michael Fitzpatrick's review of Paul Offit's book )

There are trials in progress all over the world for a Covid-19 vaccine. I don't think most of us will have any choice but to take it if it's offered, I'm not staying home alone for the rest of my life. 

 

[introverted1]

I was at Home Depot yesterday.  Loads of people now wearing masks.  More surprising:  about 1/3 of the employees were maskless and another 1/3 were wearing their masks pulled down under their noses.  My county has a mandatory mask order.  It was pretty mind-blowing to see an employer as large as HD not enforcing the law.

That said, if the numbers are to be believed, my county as a <1% fatality rate and a 4% hospitalization rate, which is about half of what it is for my state as a whole.

Frankly, with the constantly shifting numbers and guidance, it's hard to know what to think.

It is interesting to observe how much is being made of covid as compared to diseases like obesity which kills 300,000 Americans annually. I wonder why we've decided that population-wide mask-wearing would be a good thing but have made no similar effort to curb the many lifestyle diseases that plague us as a society.

[QuietRiot]

6 hours ago, introverted1 said:

I was at Home Depot yesterday.  Loads of people now wearing masks.  More surprising:  about 1/3 of the employees were maskless and another 1/3 were wearing their masks pulled down under their noses.  My county has a mandatory mask order.  It was pretty mind-blowing to see an employer as large as HD not enforcing the law.

That said, if the numbers are to be believed, my county as a <1% fatality rate and a 4% hospitalization rate, which is about half of what it is for my state as a whole.

Frankly, with the constantly shifting numbers and guidance, it's hard to know what to think.

It is interesting to observe how much is being made of covid as compared to diseases like obesity which kills 300,000 Americans annually. I wonder why we've decided that population-wide mask-wearing would be a good thing but have made no similar effort to curb the many lifestyle diseases that plague us as a society.

Ironically, its the obesity that's killing people via Covid-19. If you're obese, your chances of survival are slim, sadly. So perhaps that is why. Obesity ties into the Covid 19. I saw a disturbing image of people on ventilators, positioned face down in their hosp. beds...everyone one of them..big guys/gals.

 And sadly, with body acceptance, embracing your fatness has become the norm these days. Some have said, "Sorry, I love food...not going to give that up" as America's obesity has skyrocketed. Even children are little rolly pollys.

Edited July 6, 2020 by QuietRiot

[major_merrick]

The government's own statements on masks has changed at least a couple of times since this thing started.  There are several reasons why masks are more of a comfort to the minds of the proles than an actual safe practice:

1.  If it isn't an N95, it isn't worth much.  All masks are not created equal.  Most masks the common people are using don't filter well enough.  ("Better than nothing" isn't a good reason to make it mandatory.)

2.  Most people aren't disciplined enough to avoid touching their faces.  (If it isn't a gas mask covering the whole face, you're gonna be pulling at it if you haven't been trained.)

3.  Most people don't put the mask on properly, don't wear it properly, and most are reusing their masks (especially the cloth ones). 

4.  If a man has a beard, the mask is not effective because it will not maintain proper contact with the face. 

***These are things the medical folks used to acknowledge as standard in the pre-COVID days.  I've lived through enough of my MIL's lectures about bird flu, swine flu, Ebola, etc...  Funny how the "science" changes when the authorities want it to.***

The only sure way to protect people is for people to be responsible for THEMSELVES.  That means vulnerable individuals need to self-isolate (as I did during my pregnancy).  Vulnerable individuals ought to be wearing high-quality masks, not ineffective rags over their faces.  The health authorities ought to clearly indicate who is most likely to be vulnerable and who is most likely to be ok, rather than scaring everybody.

I highly doubt that unmasked people are spreading the virus much more than people with ineffective masks and poor technique.

Edited July 6, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed political comments in non-political forum.

[QuietRiot]

3 hours ago, major_merrick said:

 The government's own statements on masks has changed at least a couple of times since this thing started.  There are several reasons why masks are more of a comfort to the minds of the proles than an actual safe practice:

1.  If it isn't an N95, it isn't worth much.  All masks are not created equal.  Most masks the common people are using don't filter well enough.  ("Better than nothing" isn't a good reason to make it mandatory.)

2.  Most people aren't disciplined enough to avoid touching their faces.  (If it isn't a gas mask covering the whole face, you're gonna be pulling at it if you haven't been trained.)

3.  Most people don't put the mask on properly, don't wear it properly, and most are reusing their masks (especially the cloth ones). 

4.  If a man has a beard, the mask is not effective because it will not maintain proper contact with the face. 

***These are things the medical folks used to acknowledge as standard in the pre-COVID days.  I've lived through enough of my MIL's lectures about bird flu, swine flu, Ebola, etc...  Funny how the "science" changes when the authorities want it to.***

The only sure way to protect people is for people to be responsible for THEMSELVES.  That means vulnerable individuals need to self-isolate (as I did during my pregnancy).  Vulnerable individuals ought to be wearing high-quality masks, not ineffective rags over their faces.  The health authorities ought to clearly indicate who is most likely to be vulnerable and who is most likely to be ok, rather than scaring everybody.  

I highly doubt that unmasked people are spreading the virus much more than people with ineffective masks and poor technique.

 A mask is better than nothing. It's common sense. Not an exercise in govt. power whatsoever.   Canada and some other countries had success in flattening of the curve due to the lack of people with such an attitude.

The idea of the "rags" over the faces it to slow down the jettison or thrust of the air coming out of the mouth, which in turn, keeps the virus spread to a bare minimum. I'm sure you've seen the peer proven videos and publications on this already.

Also the N95s are more appropriate for those medical personal that are in total close contact with the already sick covid patients. In an area with a very high viral load. A face covering whilst shopping in a grocery store will suffice. Also, it works best with the CDC recommendation of all 3  - Face coverings, AND social distancing, AND hand hygiene.

Face masks alone aren't the panacea, but all 3 combined.

Edited July 6, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed political comments and personal attack

[QuietRiot]

This is a good analogy comparing pants to masks

Maybe this'll help

https://twitter.com/mlipsitch/status/1256603982820188160/photo/1

Also, let's talk about other countries. If other countries won't let us into their borders, it's pretty obvious how other countries see us.

Edited July 6, 2020 by QuietRiot

[major_merrick]

If vulnerable folks or folks who care about the issue want to be safe, all they have to do is wash THEIR hands and put on THEIR masks.  And then wear those masks properly.  Personal responsibility is a beautiful thing - you don't have to rely on the cooperation of anybody else.  Go forth and be happy!

If you think Canada's record with the COVID is great, try Uganda's record.  Zero deaths.  Yep!  And I'm pretty sure they don't have nearly the amount of medical supplies, sanitizer, masks, etc... that the Western world does.  So what did they do right? 

1.  The Ugandan government stopped travel!   In the same way, my county stopped all travel and blockaded the roads from the end of March through Memorial Day.  We still maintain checkpoints forbidding people from the nearby city to enter.  We have a vibrant internal economy, almost nobody wears masks, and the number of cases hasn't gone up.  Borders work.

2.  Ugandan doctors recognized that COVID often kills by exacerbating other conditions.  Where American doctors have focused on the disease itself, Ugandan doctors focused on other issues that the patient had.  Pre-existing diabetes, respiratory issues, etc.  They encouraged the public to focus on their baseline health BEFORE getting infected.  Healthy folks tend to stay alive better....common sense. 

It is time for people to focus on things that actually work, rather than trusting in feel-good measures and demanding cooperation on those measures from others.  The restrictions on people's liberty are not scientifically justified nor do they meet a standard of necessity that our Founding Fathers would have approved.  Thus, liberty-minded people are going to object.  And they have every right to do so!

Edited July 6, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed quoted deleted comment and politics in non-political thread

[gaius]

It's not really realistic to put the entire burden on high risk people to protect themselves from everyone else. Plenty of obese and older people work as cashiers and other jobs which require high interaction with the public. And an N95 mask, which are still in short supply, is not enough to offer them a satisfactory level of protection. They would need to be given the same level of PPE that's given to doctors and nurses treating Covid patients. Which they don't have access to at the moment and probably won't in the near future.

Now, having everyone who has to interact with them wear the equivalent of a surgical mask, that's a much better and more realistic strategy. And even George Washington forced a mass inoculation against smallpox on the army that defeated the British. Whether they liked it or not. This idea that you have every right to cough all over everyone else and spread sickness or else your liberty is being impeded is a very ignorant interpretation of our history and the standards of freedom we've had in this country since it's founding.

[major_merrick]

6 minutes ago, gaius said:

 And even George Washington forced a mass inoculation against smallpox on the army that defeated the British. Whether they liked it or not.

I disagree with the application of your example.  Inoculation of the military in order to be combat-effective is much different than forcing civilians to do similarly. 

As for vulnerable people in high-contact jobs - its a free country.  They can get a different job if they are worried about it.  And if their health is extremely poor, getting a high-contact job wasn't a good idea in the first place.  There's plenty of other stuff going around besides COVID.  I believe that is also unacceptable to treat every single person like a potentially sick leper for the sake of a few.  We cannot be legally obligated to be our "brother's keeper" as this is not some socialist utopia and was never intended to be one. 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by major_merrick