Wealth inequality

[preraph]

On the subject wealth inequality, Judge Joe Brown defends Trump saying he's not racist and in the 80s and 90s was one of the only ones loaning money to black people. He also says he financed the Jesse Jackson run for president. 

 

[Libby1]

4 hours ago, schlumpy said:

You've caught me by surprise Libby. If it was a lie then I've been living that lie for many years. I hate to think you have a such a bleak outlook 

 

Schlumpy, I'm not thinking of the situation previous generations faced.  I'm talking about what young people face now. 

Generation X and baby boomers heard our parents talk about how much tougher it was back in their day...and they'd have been right.  But Gen X and BB had it good.  In the UK, babyboomers in particular really scored.  Not only did they get free tuition at university, but if their parents income was low enough then they got pretty generous student grants to live on.  They could get qualified in a profession and they were set for life.  If they wanted to start a business, it wasn't that hard for them to find affordable premises.  Of course they had to work, but so long as they put those hours on they stood an excellent chance of succeeding.   Young people now face very different challenges, and without some of the benefits previous generations were lucky enough to have.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Libby1

[preraph]

Well, I can tell you that baby boomers in the United States but yet didn't get free college except for the very rare scholarships. Usually their parents paid for it or they didn't go on their parents paid for part of it and they paid for part of it with a job. Baby boomers worked hard. 

[Ollie180]

3 hours ago, Ellener said:

I @Ollie180 if you or your family needs shelter or support I will make sure you get it.

You’re a diamond 😘

I’m less ‘on the breadline’ and more ‘steady/normal working class’ these days though... so I guess I did move up in the world!

[Ollie180]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

And this is the rule for most. If you’re born into poverty you end up being poor. If you’re born middle classed, that’s how you end up. But the key is that there is opportunity to move up, although understandably most people wouldn’t really know how, or even desire it as it’s so far out of their knowledge base. 
I think as a gross generalization, the key to moving up is having parents that will sacrifice so their kids can have a better life.

Thing is there’s so many little barriers.. that don’t seem big on their own but all together make it difficult..

take me and my gf as a good example..

Aged 9: I was cycling myself to and from school, some days I was going their hungry... She was driven there on a full belly.

Age 15: I was working some evenings or (very)early mornings on a busy market stall in central London (Wind, rain & shine) to get some cash to live on... She was at home doing her homework

Age 16: I left school because I had limited time before I aged out of foster care, I needed to start earning money. Gf went to college and then later uni fully supported by her folks, she got a degree.

Age 17: I was very lucky to have a friends brother teach me to drive, I wouldn’t have learnt if it wasn’t for him.. whereas gf had lessons and they bought her a nice car...
I spent the next few years paying board and bills and she was living at home saving hard!  

 

I’m NOT saying that my gf was spoilt, she wasn’t, she was supported!! Her parents aren’t even rich, just middle class - if you can afford to then any parent worth their salt would support their kid/help them out in a way that enables them to succeed!! What I’m saying is - their are a lot of barriers for folk who are born ‘poor’ to work their way up that income scale and it isn’t always a case of work ethnic (as people who have never experienced it so often claim)

Also, importantly, none of those barriers are excuses - you can still achieve, it’s just it will require a way high degree of sacrifice, dedication and luck, that it would from someone from a more advantaged background. That’s the problem you’re fighting if you want to even out the growing ‘wealth gap’.

(As things work out me and my gf were both motivated into our respective career paths not by money - I was desperate to see the world and fell into my career out of a love of ‘making a difference’ - I’ve worked for non profit charities most of my life, sometimes I’ve even worked for free - doesn’t mean I’m not working hard. As for my gf, her parents encouraged her to pursue a career she truly loved, even if it wasn’t the best paid)

[thefooloftheyear]

1 hour ago, Libby1 said:

Schlumpy, I'm not thinking of the situation previous generations faced.  I'm talking about what young people face now. 

Generation X and baby boomers heard our parents talk about how much tougher it was back in their day...and they'd have been right.  But Gen X and BB had it good.  In the UK, babyboomers in particular really scored.  Not only did they get free tuition at university, but if their parents income was low enough then they got pretty generous student grants to live on.  They could get qualified in a profession and they were set for life.  If they wanted to start a business, it wasn't that hard for them to find affordable premises.  Of course they had to work, but so long as they put those hours on they stood an excellent chance of succeeding.   Young people now face very different challenges, and without some of the benefits previous generations were lucky enough to have.

 

 

There are so many ways to make money now, compared to when I started in business, its silly...

You have morons with youTube accounts making incredible money...The Kardashians is a billion dollar empire,....Just the mere fact that a lot of people work from home now, not having to deal with all the hassles of cars/public transit eic...is a huge advantage...The internet literally revolutionized the way business is done....It leveled the playing field for the little guy in  a myriad of ways...

Civil servants now readily make over 100K ...in the 80's those were shyt jobs that paid nothing and no one wanted them...Now. everyone dreams of one..

Its simply mind boggling that people think its harder now than it was then...

TFY

Edited June 19, 2020 by thefooloftheyear

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

1 hour ago, thefooloftheyear said:

Its simply mind boggling that people think its harder now than it was then...

 

The only thing I think is harder now than then is teenagers finding jobs.  So many places require 18 as a minimum age! When we were young it was so easy to find a job at 15 or even 14.  Where I live that is impossible these days and some kids actually want to work.  

[Ellener]

7 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

The #1 reason for financial ruin and bankruptcy in the U.S. is medical debt. The biggest strain on my budget for most of my adult life has been health insurance and health care. I'm probably in the top 5% of healthy in my age group, always have been, but even routine and minor health care costs an absolute fortune. I never enjoyed any kind of safety net or support in this domain.

that's what everyone has been saying for years. PPACA was supposed to address it in the US but it was just more health insurance. I think people overseas would be stunned to know what it's like for the sick or disabled or dying here, what we've been criticised for about the pandemic focus is what people just live with. 

 

[basil67]

11 hours ago, Ellener said:

you think?

We have a severely mentally ill president and no one even tries to help him....see that's a sign of weakness in me to many people, compassion. I should either support unconditionally or hate on someone. Not me.

Running with the idea that he's mentally ill for argument's sake...

We don't know what is said behind closed doors with close friends, family and even medical practitioners.  And it would be completely inappropriate for people to "help" publicly.  So it cannot be said that nobody is trying to help.    That said, those who's mental illness involves grandiosity will generally refuse help because of the nature of their illness.  

This then brings us to the point of knowing when to walk away.  We cannot help someone who will not accept help and it's a fools errand to try. 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

We cannot help someone who will not accept help and it's a fools errand to try. 

sometimes it has to be enough to have tried though.

 

[basil67]

1 minute ago, Ellener said:

sometimes it has to be enough to have tried though.

 

Sure. Give it a try.  But if they reject help, there's nothing to be done.   And when giving it a try, doing it privately is essential

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

Sure. Give it a try.  But if they reject help, there's nothing to be done.   And when giving it a try, doing it privately is essential

I am embarrassed that no one seems to care about Trump, I know that sounds weird but I read his article with Wall Street Journal this week, I see all this acting out and I have been there, had severe mental illness myself: I had friends who just discretely took over my life for a bit. I'm always going on about kindness cures everything, and I stand by that, but the president desn't seem to be being treated fairly either. Maybe I'll write to his niece, his wife. Somebody always has to start the ball rolling on what is compassionate.

[TheStickisback]

Wealth inequality is a complex issue. On a personal level we live in the information level we live in the information age so people would really be surprised what they really can do to have a side hustle or start a business. On the corporate level we have some issues with true competitiveness. The goal seems to be to reach the top and prevent others from reaching that level through competition

[Weezy1973]

@thefooloftheyear what’s harder now is home ownership vs income and education vs income. In the US also healthcare vs. income. Those three things have risen in cost far more than salaries have. 

[pepperbird]

12 hours ago, Libby1 said:

One of the problems there is that welfare has become a way of plugging the gap between low wages and the cost of living.  A friend of mine was stressing out about managing financially during the furlough.  I asked her to send me details of her earnings, and worked out that even when she's on full earnings she's entitled to welfare assistance for her rent.   She works full time. In the UK, welfare top ups like working tax credit and help with rent are the only way that a lot of working people are able to get by. 

Smaller businesses such as the one my friend works for can't afford to pay them a living wage - ie a wage that would fully cover their rent and basic necessities, and then you have bigger businesses who could afford to pay better wages, but who'd prefer the profits to go to increased dividends for shareholders.  Then there's the sort of corporate welfare big business gets in order to persuade it to keep operations in particular areas (and sometimes those businesses will scoop up everything that's on offer, then leave anyway.  I think Boeing is supposed to be one of the biggest offenders there.

Starbucks contributes a tiny amount (relative to its size) in terms of tax payments in the UK thanks to its ability to exploit all sorts of loopholes.  They suck up a lot of business that could otherwise go to independent chains, and they don't give much back in terms of tax.  When so much effort goes into pandering to big business and its shareholders, it encourages this situation whereby people are increasingly just becoming state funded consumers of everything big business churns out...instead of being an active part of the economy by building businesses of their own.

here, you're not allowed to work if you're collecting welfare. A lot of people who can't collect welfare work for a few months doing seasonal work and then go on unemployment (the pogey) until it runs out and they start the cycle again. It's a way of life. Even lobster fishermen who are clearing overt $150,000 grand per season do it.

[pepperbird]

13 hours ago, Ellener said:

I know I'm just an old hippie but everything comes down to kindness and empathy. Everything. 'Let me be, let you be'. That's the balance. And then that balance equals out some of the time. 

Well-functioning equals happy and kind. 

I like your viewpoint. I was always taught that if one is privileged enough to have an opportunity to do a kindness for someone else, they should. I have been very fortunate in my life, and if I can make someone elses day better, it's the right thing to do.

 

[pepperbird]

9 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Libby1 said:

The payment issue is very difficult.  Common practice in my profession is to ask for a payment up front,  because otherwise you can end up expending a huge amount of time chasing payments which in some cases you'll never get (eg if a client goes bankrupt).  In that situation, we're doing work over a lengthy period of time, so instalment payments make more sense.  With healthcare that's going to be a lot harder especially where it's a case of one off surgery.  If the surgeon does a few operations that she ends up not getting paid for, and there's no recourse (eg if the patient has no assets and legal action isn't likely to accomplish anything) then she could soon go from being a millionaire to having a business that's in serious trouble. 

I absolutely sympathise with you.  I hate asking clients for money up front, and have always tried to be accommodating of their means.  The easiest, most pleasant job I had was where our clients were all insurance companies.  No worries about getting paid there.  Helping people is a much tougher gig.  Far more emotionally draining and that awful situation of having to chase people for payment.  The professionals who do well financially in that area tend to be pretty ruthless in getting as much money as they can up front.  The nicer ones you found...they're the ones who might end up struggling and having sleepless nights about how staff salaries.  Some of those nice ones might, a few years down the road, become more ruthless not because they want to be but because the future of their business depends on it.  

Of course, universal health care would prevent the sort of problem you're talking about...yet still allow those who are very wealthy to go down the private medical care route if they preferred (as a lot of them probably do).   My father worked in the health sector and he did a mix of National Health Service work (the bulk of what he did) and some private patient work.  When a person is working that way,  not only are they able to help people who wouldn't otherwise have the funds for much needed treatment...but if they do some private work that they end up not being paid for then at least there isn't the same high risk of running into serious difficulties if they don't get paid.  Especially when it comes to surgery (the cost of setting up operation and recovery facilities and having a fully trained team is no small beer).  Working in any sector where you're providing people with a service they desperately need is no easy task.  I have a friend who's a vet who constantly struggles with the unhappy situation of having to chase people for payment after they've had their beloved pet put to sleep.  But if they don't get paid, they go under.

I absolutely agree with you, however, that payment arrangements should have been discussed at the outset.  To schedule a surgery and suddenly land that demand on a patient just a few days before the surgery is due to take place is outrageous.  No excuse for it.

 

Please, please PLEASE don't mention universal health care without having lived in a country where said system has failed. Too many look to us in the north and think we have "free" health care.

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by pepperbird

[Weezy1973]

8 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

 

 

Please, please PLEASE don't mention universal health care without having lived in a country where said system has failed. Too many look to us in the north and think we have "free" health care.

 

Universal healthcare isn’t free. Where has it failed (I.e people have worse health outcomes than countries without universal healthcare)?

[pepperbird]

1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said:

Universal healthcare isn’t free. Where has it failed (I.e people have worse health outcomes than countries without universal healthcare)?

A few years ago, I got sick. Really sick. I lost over 70 pounds and felt awful. My doctor couldn't figure what was wrong, so I got sent up the line to a specialist. I waited months. My family doctor was so ticked she finally told me to go to the ER and complain about my symptoms.
I finally got to see the hematologist six months later, and was put near the top of the list for a biopsy. I waited more months and thanks to all that waiting, my lymphoma it turned out I had  was harder to treat and the autoimmune diseases I was also diagnosed with  did more damage to my heat and lungs. 
The wait list here for a neurologist? Over a year. Special needs dentistry? The same. Cardiology and procedures like hip injections can take months.

In my province, the wait time to get a  family doctor can be years. People are stuck using walk in clinics and even emergency rooms as family doctors.

An excellent case in point of how it's actually killed people? There's a large care facility near where i live. It's funded by the government , but if you pay out of pocket, you can get some perks.
That care home has over 50n deaths due to covid-19. Almost all of these were among those who can only afford the publicly funded side because apparently none of the perks they weren't getting was PPE being worn by the staff. There was no finding available.

A publicly funded system can be a wonderful thing, but here, we took our eye off the ball.We should have been more careful.

[TheStickisback]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

@thefooloftheyear what’s harder now is home ownership vs income and education vs income. In the US also healthcare vs. income. Those three things have risen in cost far more than salaries have. 

Funny thing about healthcare is if the focus was on preventative the price would drop some. What a lot of people don't realize is something I learned working in the nursing home. The less medication you take the longer you live. The people that make it to 100 taking vitamins or tylenol for pain minimum. The practice of actually making healthier choices would save a person money and help them economically

[Libby1]

4 hours ago, pepperbird said:

Please, please PLEASE don't mention universal health care without having lived in a country where said system has failed. Too many look to us in the north and think we have "free" health care.
 

I live in a country with universal health care.  It does of course take a huge chunk of taxpayer funds (it's supposed to be funded by National Insurance contributions) and there are a lot of problems with it.   Tourists visiting without getting health insurance and benefiting from costly treatment is a problem.  Binge drinkers ending up in accident and emergency is a costly problem.  There are certainly issues with it, but I don't really know how a person looks at a system of universal health care and ascertains whether the inevitable problems and imperfections mean it has failed.  

Is there a private health care option in Canada, Pepperbird?  In the UK, a lot of people get Bupa cover either privately or through their work.  Others will sometimes pay for private treatment if they can afford it and don't want to wait.  So it isn't a case of having no option but to use NHS services.  There are private medical facilities too, but they are of course expensive.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Libby1

[basil67]

6 hours ago, Ellener said:

Somebody always has to start the ball rolling on what is compassionate.

What makes you think that they aren't trying to help?  Alternately, what makes you think that his behaviour hasn't created sufficient discord for them to emotionally separate themselves from him?   Melania's body language when they present together is not unlike Princess Diana's when her marriage was beyond repair.  

 

[Haydn]

 

@Libby1

I live in a country with universal health care.  It does of course take a huge chunk of taxpayer funds (it's supposed to be funded by National Insurance contributions) and there are a lot of problems with it.   Tourists visiting without getting health insurance and benefiting from costly treatment is a problem.  Binge drinkers ending up in accident and emergency is a costly problem. 

 

Tourists without insurance take a fraction of cost and it`s usually emergency treatment. Which is virtually offered in most countries. Plus most EU countries have a form of universal agreement and insurance is covered by various schemes. (Soon to end for us, sadly)

But i totally agree with you on the local drunks taking up cost and time in our NHS. 

Plus we can look forward to it being stripped when we are forced to accept whatever deal the US offers us.

Happy days!

 

[Ellener]

8 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

@thefooloftheyear what’s harder now is home ownership vs income and education vs income. In the US also healthcare vs. income. Those three things have risen in cost far more than salaries have. 

I emigrated to be rich. We came here on a National Interest Waiver- it was for America's benefit too! And I was wealthy in money for a while.

What I've learned since is that all that matters is taking care of each other, surviving alongside each other.

America is the best place in the world because we can do that, we are free, and the things @Weezy1973 mentions are modern-day traps which reduce our freedom- of course people respond.

We need a government who cares about us. For all his faults Trump signed CARES Act, and he'll sign HEROES Act. But ordinary people are done playing his games- if he can't be well and happy as a billionaire then money isn't the answer to our life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

That's why we're dismantling 'the system'.

[Ellener]

2 hours ago, Haydn said:

i totally agree with you on the local drunks taking up cost and time in our NHS. 

You are looking at 'the problem' upside down- why are people getting drunk in our societies?