Anti-white Prejudice - does it exist?

[Emilie Jolie]

A increasing number of white people (therefore voters) seem to feel like they are the victims of a form of anti-white racism, and I feel like it's at the heart of the 'cultural war' many of our societies are facing.

My personal position is closely aligned to the following quote by Dr Pragya Agarwal, author and behavioural scientist

Quote

White people can indeed face stereotypical assumptions based on their skin colour and hence encounter racial prejudice. But this cannot be called racism, because of the inherent systemic imbalance of power between those with lighter skin colour and people of colour. Racial prejudice can affect people on an individual level, but it would not have the same effect on a larger social and cultural level because it is only when stereotypes are bolstered by power, such as through a eurocentric model of thinking, that it creates systemic and structural racism and oppression that people of colour have encountered throughout history

I don't believe anti-white racism as concept exists for the reasons stated above, even though I accept the notion of anti-white racial prejudice.

I'm white, from a relatively sheltered background acquired through merit, not money, with a dual European background from my parents and a multicultural ethnic background through my extended family. My mixed heritage and travels have allowed me to be exposed to different perspectives on the issue of race and racism, and I like to think of myself as accepting of other people's views, up to a point. I have a fairly hard line in my personal life as far as developing friendships with bigots or racists, and I admit that I really struggle with the notion that 'whites' as a race are a threatened species. I understand that people have this perception however, and would like to know what drives these perceptions.

Any thoughts or personal experiences appreciated.

 

[homecoming]

Yes, racial prejudice can exist, but anti-white racism cannot, for the reasons you've stated. 

The 'white genocide' narrative is a myth, there is no evidence of white people's existence being threatened by minorities, and is a concept that even David Duke's godson (KKK member) dismissed. 

The fear of the Other is an interesting concept, as to why these fears develop. To really articulate it I'd have to go into all of my old essays, but basically it is that the psyche of a racist person feels fear and a threat by the presence of something they are unfamiliar with, so they project all of the world's wrongdoings onto those who are different, so as to keep their own narcissistic internal core 'pure' - thus creating the idea and belief that the white race is being 'threatened'. This concept would have led to narratives such as "they're stealing all our jobs" and "they're taking all our women", etc.  The same concept would apply to homophobic behaviour. 

Edited June 13, 2020 by homecoming

[Emilie Jolie]

I agree with you, with one caveat: I don't necessarily associate it with racism. My take is that there is a lot of repressed, unresolved, unspoken, unaddressed guilt and shame carried by 'whites' as a group for obvious reasons. I feel like this 'anti-white prejudice' movement is a rejection of the shame and guilt over past action. Almost like a self-protective measure, if that makes sense? (I'd love to get a hand on your essays, by the way!)

[homecoming]

4 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I agree with you, with one caveat: I don't necessarily associate it with racism. My take is that there is a lot of repressed, unresolved, unspoken, unaddressed guilt and shame carried by 'whites' as a group for obvious reasons. I feel like this 'anti-white prejudice' movement is a rejection of the shame and guilt over past action. Almost like a self-protective measure, if that makes sense? (I'd love to get a hand on your essays, by the way!)

That's an interesting point, yes! The rejection of guilt and shame, yes - all of those negative feelings are projected onto the Other, instead of dealt with by the individual themselves. Psychoanalysis applied to all of this is so eye-opening, actually. The concept of 'splitting' (Melanie Klein) would really apply, here. And I'd be happy to share them with you, DM me if you'd like

[major_merrick]

Anti-white racism exists.  Violently, in fact.  Any time you're the "other" it can get ugly pretty fast.  I grew up as part of the white minority in an urban neighborhood.  Got me into plenty of fights.  Sexual assault was almost always a risk, and being blonde made me an automatic target.  About the only protection was to be part of a gang of some kind.  After moving away from the area where I grew up, it took me a while to interact with people of other races/cultures without being afraid.  But after years of being treated with disrespect, seeing plenty of violence, and surviving attempted sexual assaults - you just end up not trusting people.... and the "other" is first on the list. 

Putting the shoe on the other foot, I can see how people from minority groups might feel in a white-majority area.  While their experience and mine are not the same, there's a principle of human interaction that is common:  Being the "other" is not fun at all!

I have no shame or guilt, thank-you-very-much. I didn't deserve the crap I went through when I was younger.  I sure didn't benefit from any kind of "system."  Racism is racism, no matter who does the action and no matter who the recipient is.  When people deny that anti-white racism exists, that perpetuates racism.   And it gives ammunition to the Klan and the fascists. 

[salparadise]

In a  group I used to volunteer with, there were two Hispanic women. One was showing a photograph of her boyfriend to the other. The other one exclaimed, “OMG, he’s white, WTF are you doing?” She then went on to denigrate white people generally, and the other girl for dating a white person, claiming it was some sort of transgression. The one with the boyfriend said that’s racist. The one making the comments said “no, it’s not; only whites can be racist.” Other people witnessed the interaction and everyone agreed that it was racist. There was backlash, and the one who made the comment ended up resigning.
I don’t understand how anyone  can claim this wasn’t racist. I’m calling BS.

 

[Emilie Jolie]

@major_merrickThank you for your reply, and for sharing your experience. Of course you didn't deserve that tough upbringing, I appreciate how hard it must have been for you.

My caveat to your point is this, and I hope you understand that this is not me dismissing your experience (not at all the case), this is just me offering this perspective: the white minority you were part of is not representative of the whole country. It does not reflect how all (or most) white are treated. This is why, although you definitely a victim of racial prejudice, it is not racism. Minorities have not taken over institutional power, they are not on superior level compared to whites in almost any aspect of society, even though our societies are now more diverse.

Racial discrimination? Yes. Racial prejudice? Yes. Racial hate crime? Yes. Racism? No (in my opinion).

[major_merrick]

@Emilie Jolie  In other words, you're arguing that the word "racism" applies only to a regional or national system?  Correct me if I'm wrong....

Again, I disagree.  I think in America things vary tremendously based on your zip code.  Prevailing political views, culture, and overall demographic makeup.  I just don't see the United States as "united" in really any way except by a Federal border.  About the only "system" that goes nationwide is the media, and in areas like where I live that has somewhat less effect than elsewhere.

 

[Emilie Jolie]

@salparadiseThat's totally f***ed up, I agree. I fully get the backlash and the resigning, and I see the racial prejudice. I'm still not sure this constitutes racism. At this point, I feel this may just be just be a definition issue. Racism as a concept is different to racial prejudice. 

[homecoming]

23 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

Anti-white racism exists.  Violently, in fact.  Any time you're the "other" it can get ugly pretty fast.  I grew up as part of the white minority in an urban neighborhood.  Got me into plenty of fights.  Sexual assault was almost always a risk, and being blonde made me an automatic target.  About the only protection was to be part of a gang of some kind.  After moving away from the area where I grew up, it took me a while to interact with people of other races/cultures without being afraid.  But after years of being treated with disrespect, seeing plenty of violence, and surviving attempted sexual assaults - you just end up not trusting people.... and the "other" is first on the list. 

Putting the shoe on the other foot, I can see how people from minority groups might feel in a white-majority area.  While their experience and mine are not the same, there's a principle of human interaction that is common:  Being the "other" is not fun at all!

I have no shame or guilt, thank-you-very-much. I didn't deserve the crap I went through when I was younger.  I sure didn't benefit from any kind of "system."  Racism is racism, no matter who does the action and no matter who the recipient is.  When people deny that anti-white racism exists, that perpetuates racism.   And it gives ammunition to the Klan and the fascists. 

This sounds awful, and no one deserves that. However, I don't believe that anti-white racism exists. Anti-white prejudice, yes. The experience you've had isn't shared by white people around the world, instead existing in isolated cases like yours. 

While the area you grew up in had you classed as a minority, had you moved to another area, you wouldn't have been targeted for your hair colour/skin colour. It won't follow you around, wherever you go. You can turn on the television, or watch any film, and see yourself represented. You can walk past magazine stands, and be represented by all the covers on the stand. You can go onto a dating app, and not be met with "no blacks, no Asians". You can go into an airport, and board a plane without being scrutinised while wearing a backpack. You can enter a conversation with someone you don't know, without being asked "no, but where are you REALLY from?". You can express discontent at your country's government without being told "well, why don't you leave?". 

White priviliege ("I sure didn't benefit from any kind of system") isn't about receiving financial or social benefits. It's all of the above things. 

No matter where I have gone, as a black person, I am seen as black. I can't move out of one area and move to another and then things are fine. It will follow me and pervade every area of my life - from dating, to employment, to even travel! I can recall an occasion in which I went to board a bus, at night. The white simply driver looked at me, and shut the doors, then drove off. I'm a 5'4 female. When I was a child, on holiday, a group of white men called me a "coal baby" and then just walked off. I've had rocks thrown at my car in a different area. In yet another area, I was met by monkey noises. So, wherever I have gone, the racism is there. 

The point I'm making is that it isn't about area. Those awful people you've mentioned were acting on their own racial prejudice, not systemic and obvious patterns of racism. Those people's actions, while evidently traumatic, didn't affect your space in the world, or how the world sees you. 

I hope you don't think I am being insensitive, I'm just trying to portray the difference between racism and racial prejudice.

Of course, this is only my view, and everyone is entitled to label their experiences however they choose.

[Emilie Jolie]

Just now, major_merrick said:

@Emilie Jolie  In other words, you're arguing that the word "racism" applies only to a regional or national system?  Correct me if I'm wrong....

Again, I disagree.  I think in America things vary tremendously based on your zip code.  Prevailing political views, culture, and overall demographic makeup.  I just don't see the United States as "united" in really any way except by a Federal border.  About the only "system" that goes nationwide is the media, and in areas like where I live that has somewhat less effect than elsewhere.

 

Yeah, I think I can get behind what you are saying to some degree, I see the logic. To me, it's not so much regional or national, it's systemic - not getting a job, a raise, a house, a mortgage, a call back on account of your skin tone. Not really how you are treated, if that makes sense?

[Emilie Jolie]

Just now, enigma32 said:

I really don't know who let these crazy people make the rules. Only white people can be racist? That statement in itself is racist. These people saying that racism against white people can't actually be racism only because it is against white people? They're the racists. 

In white-dominant societies, it's not really structurally, practically possible for the minority group to be racist, even less so if that minority group has no institutional power.

A group of minority people insulting a group of white people at a bar for being white? Racial prejudice.

Black applicants getting half the call backs that white applicants get with the same qualifications for the same jobs (see experiment lead by sociologist Devah Pager in American Sociology Review 2009 Oct 1; 74(5): 777–799 called 'Discrimination in a Low-Wage Labor Market: A Field Experiment' if you are interested)? Racism.

Does that make sense?

 

[homecoming]

8 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

I really don't know who let these crazy people make the rules. Only white people can be racist? That statement in itself is racist. These people saying that racism against white people can't actually be racism only because it is against white people? They're the racists. 

Racial prejudice is just as bad, no one is condoning it, but it isn't considered racism, due to the lack of systemic power it carries.

Racism, however, is backed up by an imbalance of power, and it has the power and authority to affect the person's social/economic/political location and privileges. This isn't the case with white people.

[K.K.]

At my last job, I worked with roughly 300 mostly black women and men with a few whites scattered amongst the crowd. I was tortured and bullied almost the whole entire time I was there because I was white. How do I know it was because I was white? Well .. the endless barrage of “that’s just that white bitch don’t help her!” tipped me off.

 Or maybe it was the way they walked behind me in a large group mumbling “white bitch” every other step I took. Or maybe it was when I walked into the bathroom one day and was met with “this bathroom ain’t for you go to the other one, white girl” Maybe that was it. The men weren’t like that. They just wanted to get in my pants to say they dicked the white girl. Didn’t go well for me when I declined. Got pretty hard to even walk to my car without being screamed at and called a “stuck up white slut.”

I finally did unleash my crazy on one of them and they did for the most part leave me alone after that.  But I’ll NEVER forget the way I was treated when I did nothing but try to be kind and get along with them. 

If you think racism doesn’t go the other way, you’re dead wrong. And you can call it anything you want to. Use whatever wording you want to try to minimize my ordeal. I call it racism. Period. 

That job I finally quit, but it was shocking to me to see how black people really feel about whites. It colored my whole vision of them. I guess the mob mentality of outnumbering me pushed them to speak their real feelings. Before that I had always thought black people were simply ordinary folks just like me. Just trying to get along. 

Now ... not so much. 

 

[deepthinking]

I'm about to be investigated over a false claim of racism. False claim. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by deepthinking

[major_merrick]

@homecoming  So, do you believe that you will be treated poorly or differently no matter where you go?  I know we are from different countries, so is it different in the UK vs the USA?

@K.K. Your experience sounds somewhat like mine.  Seems like it is a general rule of life that it is never good to be outnumbered. 

[homecoming]

1 minute ago, K.K. said:

At my last job, I worked with roughly 300 mostly black women and men with a few whites scattered amongst the crowd. I was tortured and bullied almost the whole entire time I was there because I was white. How do I know it was because I was white? Well .. the endless barrage of “that’s just that white bitch don’t help her!” tipped me off.

 Or maybe it was the way they walked behind me in a large group mumbling “white bitch” every other step I took. Or maybe it was when I walked into the bathroom one day and was met with “this bathroom ain’t for you go to the other one, white girl” Maybe that was it. The men weren’t like that. They just wanted to get in my pants to say they dicked the white girl. Didn’t go well for me when I declined. Got pretty hard to even walk to my car without being screamed at and called a “stuck up white slut.”

I finally did unleash my crazy on one of them and they did for the most part leave me alone after that.  But I’ll NEVER forget the way I was treated when I did nothing but try to be kind and get along with them. 

If you think racism doesn’t go the other way, you’re dead wrong. And you can call it anything you want to. Use whatever wording you want to try to minimize my ordeal. I call it racism. Period. 

That job I finally quit, but it was shocking to me to see how black people really feel about whites. It colored my whole vision of them. I guess the mob mentality of outnumbering me pushed them to speak their real feelings. Before that I had always thought black people were simply ordinary folks just like me. Just trying to get along. 

Now ... not so much. 

 

Sorry to hear about your experience, but I'm unsure why it has now made you dislike black people as a whole. You speak of being a victim of prejudice, but now you are prejudiced? 

Can you see how that might apply to black people who have been victims of oppression for their entire lives, wherever they went, no matter what organisation they entered, and not simply at one job they had? Typically, negative prejudices from black people towards whites are as a result of systemic oppression and intergenerational trauma. Those people sound nasty from what you've said, but those are personal prejudices, not systemic racism.

Those people don't have the systemic power to alter your entire life, you can get another job. Those people's views are not reflected around the world, in every form of media, every song, every band-aid colour, every job interview. The experience you had is unlikely to be repeated if you got a different job. 

 

 

[homecoming]

1 minute ago, major_merrick said:

@homecoming  So, do you believe that you will be treated poorly or differently no matter where you go?  I know we are from different countries, so is it different in the UK vs the USA?

I don't walk around believing that people will treat me badly, but if it happens, I am not surprised by it. In the UK, once you leave London it is very hit-and-miss. Many people of colour only really feel safe in the bigger cities - Manchester, London, Liverpool. More rural areas are very unwelcoming, with bus drivers, shopkeepers, etc being very hostile. From accounts of my male family members, they experience harsh treatment from the police, frequently, in most areas - once, my brother had parked in a legal parking space while visiting his mother in hospital. He was questioned by police - it is so frequent for him that he relayed the story very nonchalantly. From what I have seen and read, it seems a lot harsher in the US, and a lot more tension. 

 

[homecoming]

4 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

Another example of racism against white people. Your advice when a white person is the victim of racism is to just find another job then? Would you give the same advice to minorities who encounter racism? Just tell everyone to find a new job? Why minimize the experience of a white person?

I didn't tell anyone to "find another job" as advice, please don't misquote me. 

I am not minimising, and had offered empathy within my response. I am merely explaining the difference between racial prejudice and racism as a structural form of oppression.

If you are incorrectly going to call me a racist, and engage in a combative way, then I am going to choose to opt out of engaging with you. 

Wish you well.

Edited June 14, 2020 by homecoming

[Emilie Jolie]

21 minutes ago, K.K. said:

If you think racism doesn’t go the other way, you’re dead wrong. And you can call it anything you want to. Use whatever wording you want to try to minimize my ordeal. I call it racism. Period. 

 

K.K. I don't want to minimise your ordeal at all. It sounds rough, and I'm sorry you went through it. This is personal thing to you, and I get it, genuinely. I don't want to undermine it. This is racial prejudice, yes. 

You used a very important word, I think - 

21 minutes ago, K.K. said:

it was shocking to me to see how black people really feel about whites.

This is it, in bold. Racism isn't about how people feel about you as an individual white person. A racist can be perfectly nice and respectable to you, they may even befriend you. But they will always think that you and everyone who looks like you are inferior to them, not deserving of the same rights, lazy, uneducated, ungrateful, violent, aggressive, etc, and they will do everything in their power to make sure you are never equal to them in all aspects of your life, just because of the colour of your skin.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[K.K.]

12 minutes ago, homecoming said:

Sorry to hear about your experience, but I'm unsure why it has now made you dislike black people as a whole. You speak of being a victim of prejudice, but now you are prejudiced? 

I didn’t make me dislike them as a whole. I know there’s good black people out there. I’ve seen them. Heard them. Listen to what they say. They’re the ones that don’t play victim and actually made something out of themselves instead of blaming the white man for all of their problems and “oppression”. But it did cause me to wonder and look sideways at them, yes. Wouldn’t you if you were me? 

They had the same opportunities as me. We all had free k-12th grade education. Some of us went to school and did what we were supposed to do. Got jobs and try to pay our bills and get by. While some of us whine and blame everyone else for our problems. It’s getting old. Very hard to have much sympathy anymore. I have NO white guilt either which was stated earlier in this post. I didn’t live in the times  of slavery. Neither did anyone else living today. Which is what this all is about who are we kidding. Revenge isn’t the way to bring about peace. It’s just going to backfire. Forming hate groups like BLM isn’t the way to gain understanding. It’s just going to result in push back. 

[K.K.]

4 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

This is it, in bold. Racism isn't about how people feel about you as an individual white person. A racist can be perfectly nice and respectable to you, they may even befriend you. But they will always think that you and everyone who looks like you are inferior to them, not deserving of the same rights, lazy, uneducated, ungrateful, violent, aggressive, etc,

Says you. When they not only feel it but torture me because of it for no other reason than I’m white, hey... I say it’s racism. No different than if I did that to a black person. Pretty wording doesn’t make it any less true. 

[Emilie Jolie]

1 minute ago, K.K. said:

Pretty wording doesn’t make it any less true. 

It's not about pretty wording; it's about them being 2 different concepts.

6 minutes ago, K.K. said:

Revenge isn’t the way to bring about peace. It’s just going to backfire.

There have been decades of asking for equal rights and opportunities, that have not been reciprocated. Why hasn't peace been considered an option then?

[major_merrick]

@homecoming  I've wondered about what its like in the UK.  Perhaps it is because it is expected to be a "white" nation?  The US is expected to be more of a melting pot, and so things will vary tremendously by location.  In what ways do you see the US as being harsher, and have you experienced the US personally?  I have never traveled outside the US, so I can't compare the two nations. 

OK, so if we accept (for a moment) the premise that racism is a system and separate from individual prejudices, how does that system change when the system largely seems to run itself?  It almost seems like a clock that keeps ticking even though the maker stepped aside long ago.  I know that the system isn't something that I enjoy, because I've struggled at every stage of my life.  But the ways people would like to address that system seem to end up impacting individuals in a very personal way.  For example, when a white person is denied a promotion or a job due to a company needing to fill a quota set by the government (happened TWICE to my husband).

And if the "system" is guilty of racism, how do we deal with that WITHOUT the feeling that we as individuals are somehow guilty simply for being born into it?  And is there a way of creating opportunities for people that the system has shortchanged in life, without the "you didn't build that" pro-socialist attitudes of the leftist politicians?

 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by major_merrick

[homecoming]

18 minutes ago, K.K. said:

I didn’t make me dislike them as a whole. I know there’s good black people out there. I’ve seen them. Heard them. Listen to what they say. They’re the ones that don’t play victim and actually made something out of themselves instead of blaming the white man for all of their problems and “oppression”. But it did cause me to wonder and look sideways at them, yes. Wouldn’t you if you were me? 

They had the same opportunities as me. We all had free k-12th grade education. Some of us went to school and did what we were supposed to do. Got jobs and try to pay our bills and get by. While some of us whine and blame everyone else for our problems. It’s getting old. Very hard to have much sympathy anymore. I have NO white guilt either which was stated earlier in this post. I didn’t live in the times  of slavery. Neither did anyone else living today. Which is what this all is about who are we kidding. Revenge isn’t the way to bring about peace. It’s just going to backfire. Forming hate groups like BLM isn’t the way to gain understanding. It’s just going to result in push back. 

OK. 

Really, yes, it is about slavery. 

Before slavery and colonialism, whiteness was actually inferior, undesirable. Pale people were mocked by the Greeks for being weak, too feminine, physically ill, not able to fight in battle. 

The introduction of slavery and colonialism also produced white privilege. Whiteness was used as a form of social ruling control. 

Then came polygenics and scientific racism, with it's categorisations of white people at the top of a racial hierarchy, and non-whites as animalistic brutes. 

All of these historical movements have directly influenced the dynamics of today's society, there are countless papers and books on these topics. It's not just me sitting here making it up, or trying to be awkward. So yes, it does directly relate to slavery, Imperialism, colonialism, and polygenics. 

I wasn't alive during slavery, but intergenerational trauma is a thing (again, many books on the concept). The systemic negative effects of slavery and other oppressive movements didn't just die, once those oppressions stopped. 

I'm really sorry to hear about your experiences. 

I am not a victim, I just happened to be born brown, and some people don't like that. Oh well. I still chill out and relax, go to uni, do whatever. I don't know any black people with a victim mentality that everyone keeps speaking of. Being aware of the imbalanced system you were born into isn't "having a victim mentality". 

Written a lot here so gonna stop, can't think of anything else, right now.

Edited June 14, 2020 by homecoming