Tearing down statues

[Haydn]

15 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

Yes. Education. The history books need to accurately reflect the events of our past. I cannot imagine how different our children, people of our country would view current events if they were taught history objectively. Phew. What a shock it would be for many. 

This.

In a West London comp, i was taught about the Romans, the bloody Tudors, but not one word on our own nasty  history. 

`Yes, Winston let them all starve to death`... etc.

[Ellener]

In Houston there's now a monument to the Buffalo Soldiers outside the museum:

The monument, erected outside the Buffalo Soldier museum near Third Ward, was commissioned as part of the national “Cities/100 Memorials” program sponsored by the U.S. World War One Centennial Commission.

 

[amaysngrace]

I was taught about our history, the good parts and the bad parts and so were my children.  

But history means in the past.   Isn’t dwelling on the past some form of mental disorder?  

It sure seems to be with the way some people are behaving. 

[pepperbird]

I assume you live in the UK. Perhaps it's time for it to start reclaiming some it's past. Put up some prominent statues of heroic Celts and Brittons- you know, the ones who were slaughtered and enslaved by the Romans? Bodecia et. al. 

More people speak Gaelic where i live than do in Scotland, and that's just sad.
 

[pepperbird]

Will one be erected in New Orleans to honour the Acadians?

[Gr8fuln2020]

5 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

I was taught about our history, the good parts and the bad parts and so were my children.  

But history means in the past.   Isn’t dwelling on the past some form of mental disorder?  

It sure seems to be with the way some people are behaving. 

I have, never, ever, heard anything like this. In fact, people who do not know their history are doomed to repeat the most egregious elements of it. The greater mental disorder is those, despite their past, do recognized the tremendous impact it makes on the present. 

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

More people speak Gaelic where i live than do in Scotland, and that's just sad.

Highland Clearances?

[schlumpy]

34 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

You go to a Civil War battlefield, they are covered inch by inch with memorials, statues, plaques etc. to the soldiers who fought and died there. Confederate soldiers too. It's not an advertisement for white supremacy. 

Crap! I forgot about Civil War Battlefields. What to do? What to do?

Plow them under?

[Gr8fuln2020]

Just now, schlumpy said:

Crap! I forgot about Civil War Battlefields. What to do? What to do?

Plow them under?

Yeah. Leave them. No one is talking about the battlefields. 

[pepperbird]

Just now, elaine567 said:

Highland Clearances?

Sort of. They got sent here and it reminded them of home. Much of their language and culture was lost, but in the 50's and 60's, there was a period of revival. 

[amaysngrace]

8 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

I have, never, ever, heard anything like this. In fact, people who do not know their history are doomed to repeat the most egregious elements of it. The greater mental disorder is those, despite their past, do recognized the tremendous impact it makes on the present. 

In what ways does the past dictate the present?  Please enlighten me.

Oh and dwelling on the past is a form of mental weakness, at least according to psychologists.

Edited June 11, 2020 by amaysngrace

[rjc149]

2 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

Yeah. Leave them. No one is talking about the battlefields. 

Not yet. You tear down every statue from a public place, trust me, they'll look to the battlefields. Clear them out of any Confederate monument, so they're all Union. 

It's like -- where would it end? What's the agreed-upon boundary?

[Gr8fuln2020]

6 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

In what ways does the past dictate the present?  Please enlighten me.

Oh and dwelling on the past is a form of mental weakness, at least according to psychologists.

I don't know if this is a serious question or what, but... 🙄

I will make this simple. I don't know if you are an American, but if you think our political fractures in the USA are not due to our historical past. Look. at how the country is divided, politically. I will keep it to this single, simple example. 

[Gr8fuln2020]

8 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

Not yet. You tear down every statue from a public place, trust me, they'll look to the battlefields. Clear them out of any Confederate monument, so they're all Union. 

It's like -- where would it end? What's the agreed-upon boundary?

I don't see it going that far. People are concerned about the public, overt displays of Confederate leaders. No battle fields. 

[Emilie Jolie]

14 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

In what ways does the past dictate the present?  Please enlighten me.

You make a fair point - we don't seem to be learning from history, so what's the point? Despite everything we know about the Holocaust, the Crusades,  WW1 and 2, Iraq, war of colonisation etc, Hiroshima, Tibet, Jim Crow, etc  - events rgar are still in living memory, we are still colonising or mistreating others in different ways (we humans). So what is history actually teaching us? Is that your question? 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[amaysngrace]

1 minute ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

I don't know if this is a serious question or what, but... 🙄

I will make this simple. I don't know if you are an American, but if you think our political fractures in the USA are not due to our historical past. Look. at how the country is divided, politically. I will keep it to this single, simple example. 

Well one side keeps stoking that fire, using people rather than empowering them.  

One side would like to move forward, have stronger citizens and a stronger nation and would like to see everyone doing well, while the other enjoys basking in past wrongs and keeping them victims.

I sincerely hope this pattern of behavior becomes something of the past soon, something we can throw into the history books to delve into at a later date.

  

 

[rjc149]

15 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

I don't see it going that far. People are concerned about the public, overt displays of Confederate leaders. No battle fields. 

A lot of Civil War battlefields aren't in remote, deserted fields in the middle of nowhere. Towns and cities across the south were sites of important and bloody battles, and the monuments are right there in public view. What about those? Or we limit it to only the leaders? Okay, then which rank? Would a monument to a Confederate lieutenant killed in battle be considered a leader? Or just the generals? 

Edited June 11, 2020 by rjc149

[Gr8fuln2020]

2 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

Well one side keeps stoking that fire, using people rather than empowering them.  

One side would like to move forward, have stronger citizens and a stronger nation and would like to see everyone doing well, while the other enjoys basking in past wrongs and keeping them victims.

I sincerely hope this pattern of behavior becomes something of the past soon, something we can throw into the history books to delve into at a later date.

American history in a simple, inaccurate, nut-shell devoid of any understanding and denial of our historical past. Yep. This has been done over the centuries as well...

[amaysngrace]

8 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

American history in a simple, inaccurate, nut-shell devoid of any understanding and denial of our historical past. Yep. This has been done over the centuries as well...

Nobody is denying the history.  But it happened not in my lifetime or yours probably.  

Hell, I’m not even British.  My ancestors were slaves by the Brits.  Go figure.

I’m proud of how far my people have come though.  Therein lies the difference of the two different mindsets.  

If you see people doing well of any oppressed people throughout history they’ve probably made the mental shift from victim to survivor and that should be celebrated.

Tearing down statues is a temporary band-aid.  A feel good moment but does nothing to generate any real change. That would be up to each individual but that isn’t what one political side desires.  

They're total hypocrites in that way.

Edited June 11, 2020 by amaysngrace

[Gr8fuln2020]

2 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

A lot of Civil War battlefields aren't in remote, deserted fields in the middle of nowhere. Towns and cities across the south were sites of important and bloody battles, and the monuments are right there in public view. What about those? 

What about those? They need to remain as historical sites. They, in themselves, are not celebrations of leaders who were traitors, slave-holders, perpetrators of the human injustices of the South. 

[Gr8fuln2020]

5 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

Nobody is denying the history.  But it happened not in my lifetime or yours probably.  

Hell, I’m not even British.  My ancestors were slaves by the Brits.  Go figure.

I’m proud of how far my people have come though.  Therein lies the difference.

Shoot. Black Americans have come very far. No denying that. I would recommend you spend a considerable amount of time researching American history. What is happening now is very much connected to our past, even prior to the revolution. Fascinating...

[rjc149]

1 minute ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

What about those? They need to remain as historical sites. They, in themselves, are not celebrations of leaders who were traitors, slave-holders, perpetrators of the human injustices of the South. 

No, not to you, but what about to someone who thinks it is? Someone walking to a grocery store in Manassas VA comes across a statue of a Confederate lieutenant who was killed near that spot. He wants it taken down, because the statue celebrates the Confederacy. The lieutenant wasn't a slave-holder, but he was in command of troops. He died leading them into battle. So what about him? Is he a leader, or is his statue okay? 

Where does the line get drawn?

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

Yes. Education. The history books need to accurately reflect the events of our past. I cannot imagine how different our children, people of our country would view current events if they were taught history objectively. Phew. What a shock it would be for many. 

I don’t think an objective account of history is possible. 

[rjc149]

12 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

I don’t think an objective account of history is possible. 

No, but it can be more well-rounded and include as many perspectives as possible. 

[rjc149]

Just goes to show you how complex these legacies are. Our founding fathers were all slave-owners... so how do we memorialize them? Do we just totally sterilize everything? Just censor out all the bad parts of history? That wouldn't leave a whole lot left.