Compromises in long-term relationships

[Cookiesandough]

“I could do much worse” is just a really concerning way to look at things. Just the language  in your OP seems to suggest that you aren’t completely satisfied with the relationship overall, but you don’t think you can do better. Hope I am wrong though 

 

Also, not to be an armchair psychoanalyst (this is hardly that) but I think you might be attracted to that dynamic in part  because of your parents dynamic,  but at the  same time it doesn’t make you alll that happy ... 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[Happy Lemming]

3 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

During lockdown, we've spent 99% of our time together.

I think the "lockdown" is the problem, that and the anxiety of Covid-19.

You two went through some "bumps in the road" in the beginning of your relationship and got through it.  The lockdown and COVID-19 unknowns add a HUGE amount of stress to any relationship.

I predict things will get better (in your relationship) when we have a vaccine for this virus and life goes back to normal.

[Ruby Slippers]

2 hours ago, Allupinnit said:

If you're determined to make this work you guys have got to stop breaking up and just TALK.

That's exactly what happened this time, which is why it's promising.

I can give you one example - in general, I'm a clean freak and he's messy. For a while, a daily frustration was that I'd leave my kitchen with the primary workspace spotlessly clean, then return to it later with food crumbs and wet spots all over it. So if I wanted to do anything in the kitchen, every single time I'd have to clean up another little mess that he left behind. At first it wasn't a big deal - I'd think to myself, well, he does X for me, so I'll just try to accept it, clean it up and move on. But eventually it started to wear on me. It removed my motivation to keep the kitchen clean at all, because why bother? Then it kept me out of the kitchen, a place I love to be, because I hate working in a dirty kitchen and hate having to constantly clean up after him and his messes.

Then it started to feel rude and disrespectful. I thought to myself that if he can't be a decent guest, he should go home. I told him many times this bothered me, but it wasn't till I got more worked up about it that he responded, and even then his response was insufficient. I had to show him step by step how to clean up this area properly before he started doing it. That felt ridiculous. I noticed he was leaving messes on the countertops of what we designated as "his area" of the kitchen, and those messes were staining my countertops, potentially causing permanent damage. He found a strong bathroom cleaner that removed the stains, but only after I raised a fuss about it. So I suggested that if we ever live together for real, we'll need 2 kitchens - one for me that I can keep nice and clean, and one for him that he can leave in a constant mess.

Another variation of this is that I keep the fridge clearly organized and clean, whereas he just sticks stuff anywhere and somehow manages to spill things on the shelves often. So it's a constant process of me organizing and cleaning and him disorganizing and making messes. Sometimes I just get tired of it and let it descend into chaos, try to ignore it. Then the food runs low, I clean it up again, and the process starts all over.

This is a lot easier to accept when it comes to the bathroom, as most of the time he uses the second bathroom. My bathroom countertop is clean and tidy, and his has stuff spread out all over it - several different bottles of mouthwash, toothbrushes, razors, bits of floss, spills, balled-up tissues, etc.

By the way, the kitchen at his place is pretty much a constant wreck, unless I want to cook there and clean it up so I can. Even though he's still messy, he's much less messy at my house than his own. So he is trying to meet me in the middle, and I'm trying to accept the degree to which he's doing so. Sometimes easier said than done.

[Cookiesandough]

14 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

I think the "lockdown" is the problem, that and the anxiety of Covid-19.

You two went through some "bumps in the road" in the beginning of your relationship and got through it.  The lockdown and COVID-19 unknowns add a HUGE amount of stress to any relationship.

I predict things will get better (in your relationship) when we have a vaccine for this virus and life goes back to normal.

My folks relationship is better than ever... and it was already great.  I do agree that whatever strengths/weaknesses you have in a relationship can become exacerbated in the lock down 

[NuevoYorko]

Regarding your post above:

1) your housekeeping differences are absolutely one of the things that would need to be on the "compromise" table IF you are  doing well together otherwise.  

If you are not, it could signify part of a  core incompatibility.  I don't know any solid couples who broke up because somebody left a lot of messes around.  If this could signal  the relationship's death knell, there are more troubles brewing.  

Frankly (you're not going to like this), you sound like a bit of a control freak.  You won't have the level of control you like over shared spaces if you co-habit.  I think that is one of the pitfalls of being single for decades and then deciding to share a home with another person.

Being tidy and clean is evidently more virtuous than being a slob, but I have to say that he may be feeling just as disrespected and stepped on by your ire over the refrigerator and countertops as you feel about his mess.  

2)  Your concept of "if he can't be a good guest then he should go home" ... you have given the impression that your place IS his home, and he just hasn't got rid of his own place yet.  Is this not the case?  If it is, it is a problem for you to maintain a position of "my house, my rules."  If it's not - then he SHOULD go home, and you can spend your time together without wasting  emotional energy over this type of thing.  You don't need to live together to have a passionate relationship and in fact, it will be easier to maintain the honeymoon phase that you value if you don't have to accommodate for life's grungy realities.

3) One more element of the control thing;  at some point you posted about your typical day together which was something along the lines of: Morning sex, working out together, cooking a meal together, eating it together, working in the same room with your computers set up so you are facing each other the whole time, another duo workout, another meal cooking and sharing,  P.M. sex.  There are also massages, pampering, adoring, etc.  fit in along the way.

That would be ... hellish.  Probably for almost any man, but especially for one who has been single for any length of time and used to having plenty of his own space. I even consider myself a romantic person.   Women I know would feel the same way.  I don't think that any relationship could realistically sustain this much togetherness.

[Cookiesandough]

I agree with NuevoYorko... I thought it seemed so exhausting even for someone a person is crazy about...but I wouldn’t know and based on things I’ve read I thought I just was someone who needed more space than typical. It seems like even that much of a great thing and  you could wear on each other’s nerves... I wonder if you ever sometimes not want to do those things

Edited May 26, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[DKT3]

I'm type A with a touch of OCD, it's got better over the years.  I'm a firm believer in the 5S philosophy Sort, Set in order, Shine, Standardize, and Sustain, my wife is hide it in the closet or drawer. Sometimes its nor about compromising as much as it is unreasonable.  We have three kids soo, I realized I was being unreasonable. 

[lana-banana]

Differences in household habits aren't what I would call a "compromise" situation, it's just learning to live together (unless there are radically different views on hygiene, how cleaning should be done, etc). You can figure out a system that works for you even if it's just as simple as "you use it, you clean it" or subdivide washing and drying duties. But if these habits are part of a larger issue, like your desire for control/togetherness, then that's going to be harder to resolve.

My husband is generally a neat guy except when it comes to clothes. He could not put his clothes in the hamper if his life depended on it. After trying many different things, including multiple hampers strategically placed around the bedroom, I realized I'd never win.* Some battles aren't worth fighting and part of a long-term relationship is figuring out what those are. Sure, stand your ground if it's upsetting or meaningful to you. But you have to accept you probably aren't going to see many major and permanent life changes from a man in his 40s. 

*= but he knows this, and when he really wants to get me in the mood he'll say "hey baby" in a sultry voice and slowly put his jeans in the hamper, all sexy-like.

[DKT3]

14 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

Differences in household habits aren't what I would call a "compromise" situation, it's just learning to live together (unless there are radically different views on hygiene, how cleaning should be done, etc). You can figure out a system that works for you even if it's just as simple as "you use it, you clean it" or subdivide washing and drying duties. But if these habits are part of a larger issue, like your desire for control/togetherness, then that's going to be harder to resolve.

My husband is generally a neat guy except when it comes to clothes. He could not put his clothes in the hamper if his life depended on it. After trying many different things, including multiple hampers strategically placed around the bedroom, I realized I'd never win.* Some battles aren't worth fighting and part of a long-term relationship is figuring out what those are. Sure, stand your ground if it's upsetting or meaningful to you. But you have to accept you probably aren't going to see many major and permanent life changes from a man in his 40s. 

*= but he knows this, and when he really wants to get me in the mood he'll say "hey baby" in a sultry voice and slowly put his jeans in the hamper, all sexy-like.

I agree with you,  but I'm assuming you,  like myself are in a LTR. I think we might view it differently if we were just getting there after spending the majority of our time single or living alone. Those things we might view as minor can be a much bigger deal because its change

[Happy Lemming]

2 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

My folks relationship is better than ever...

I'm making the assumption that your parents have been married in excess of 25 years.  They have probably been through a lot of "ups and downs". I'm also assuming they worked as a team to raise you to adulthood.  

Ruby has been dating her boyfriend less than a year.

You're trying to compare apples to oranges...

[Ruby Slippers]

@NuevoYorko, I don't think either of us would argue that we're both control freaks in some ways. He's a control freak about groceries and what we eat (health nut, very anti added sugar, fat, etc.), I'm a control freak about the cleanliness of my kitchen.

Yes, he still has his own place, and I've insisted that I'm not officially moving in together unless we get married. He was talking about it fairly early on, but I insisted that having our own place to get away to in case we need it, in case it doesn't work out, is mandatory. Only if we determine we can live together peacefully will I agree to get married and live together. 

As for how much time we spend together, he drove that from the very beginning. I've always pushed the "space and time apart is healthy" message. I've told him many times that I'm totally OK with him having as much time to himself as he needs, encouraged him to do his own thing more often. One factor is that when we first met, he was flying out of state for a long weekend every month to where he has a house, to visit his grown kids and go hiking in the mountains with his buddies. So we had 5 days solo built in to every month. That's not happening now with the lockdown, but he's still the one driving that. Just tonight, he asked if I wanted to make a Costco run. I said no, you go ahead. He thought about it and said, "But it's more fun with you." 😛

We just ran a quick errand together, and I brought this up, asked him if he's spent so much time with girlfriends and his ex-wife in the past. He said no, he never wanted to, but we enjoy doing so many things together and he thinks everything is more fun with me than alone. I agree with that. Also, since he has a long-standing big group of friends in his hometown, where before we met he was visiting every 3 weeks for 10 days, he never bothered making close friends here, a city he only moved to a couple of years ago for work. He said he viewed his time here as work time, and his frequent time in his hometown as fun and friend time.

He also said he was so happy to finally meet a woman he enjoyed doing pretty much everything with that he just dove into it. Then he said just because we enjoy doing everything together doesn't mean we should. Yes, I agreed, especially during lockdown.

I have initiated putting more space between us during this time. I initiated moving his desk into the spare room while keeping mine in the living room. I sometimes tell him to go running or run an errand without me. Clearly, more of this could help.

[FMW]

If I remember correctly Ruby, you've been single for several years. You're used to having everything exactly as you want it, used to being completely in control of your environment.  So of course sharing with someone else 24/7 would be a challenge.  I've been single for about 4 years now and don't see myself ever sharing a home full time with anyone ever again. Spending a few days together followed by a few days apart sounds really good to me.  But I'm older and not contemplating having a family, so that's an easy decision for me to make.

As to the breakup/makeup pattern, there are some couples who thrive on a little passionate drama and actually stay together long term even with those cycles.  It sounds way too stressful to me and I would be running really fast the other direction.  But it's your relationship, and you have to decide for yourself if that's what works for you.

Obviously you only have written about select incidents, but it seems like when you have a big argument it's always him that apologizes and then everything goes back to being ok again.  Do you think he's always the one at fault in those situations?  If he is, then hopefully those incidents are getting fewer and farther between and he's becoming a better partner.  If he's not the only one at fault, at some point he's going to start resenting having to be the one to apologize. Just something to think about if it applies, if not, then disregard.  

Obviously when someone posts a "problem" on here we all often head to the dire end of the spectrum in our advice.  Sounds like you've worked this latest hiccup out together just fine.  Just pay attention to your thoughts and feelings over time.  If the negative ones keep reappearing then make sure you're assessing things honestly.  

If you make each other happier than you make each other nuts, then I hope your bond continues getting stronger 🙂

   

[Cookiesandough]

Yea but based on some of my friends relationships too... some people just gel and there’s not a lot of tension. 
 

Not saying ones with tension are necessarily bad or not as good. It’s just different types of couples 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[FMW]

I had a friend many years ago who had a "passionate" relationship with her boyfriend.  They had amazing sex (so they said), laughed a lot and wanted to be together all the time.  They also would storm out on each other every few weeks, slamming doors, raising their voices, etc.  And then they would have a passionate reunion and be all good until the next time.  Rinse and repeat.  Their relationship lasted several years.  

Certainly seemed nuts to me, but they appeared to have a lot of really good times together.  No, they didn't last forever, but plenty of calm and quiet couples don't either.  My parents were somewhere in the middle - more volatile than I would be comfortable with, but devoted to each other for over 50 years until his death.   

[BaileyB]

7 hours ago, lana-banana said:

I have found the most important trait is a dedication to keep going. When obstacles arise your first reaction must be to figure out how to address them, rather than throw up your hands and quit.

Thank you Lana. Your words were exactly what I needed to hear tonight, and I just wanted to say thank you. 

[Ruby Slippers]

@FMW, certainly, I do stupid things that warrant apology. The difference is... I generally am quick to see what I did wrong and apologize plainly and sincerely. Just the other night, we were bickering and I called him a jerk. He called me on MY verbal abuse - pretty much the extent of his "verbal abuse" early on was name calling - and within hours, I directly and simply said, "You're right. I'm sorry."

I think today is the first time he's EVER said the words "I'm sorry" without any prompting from me. He said he apologizes in different ways. I said those are magic words that, when spoken sincerely, can melt almost any disagreement.

Passion, yes, in spades. I think on a metaphysical level, it's that deep desire for a "perfect union," which it feels like we achieve at times, especially during sex, having fun, being adventurous together, even a good conversation. More and more we're on the same wavelength, reading each other's minds, saying out loud exactly what's tucked quietly away in the other's mind. Then in those boring everyday moments of kitchen messes and petty spats, the imperfection becomes clear and we get disheartened. I suppose I'm growing up as I figure out that love isn't constant perfection - it's believing in each other and the bond even when life becomes messy and imperfect.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Ruby Slippers

[DKT3]

12 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

@FMW, certainly, I do stupid things that warrant apology. The difference is... I generally am quick to see what I did wrong and apologize plainly and sincerely. Just the other night, we were bickering and I called him a jerk. He called me on MY verbal abuse - pretty much the extent of his "verbal abuse" early on was name calling - and within hours, I directly and simply said, "You're right. I'm sorry."

I think today is the first time he's EVER said the words "I'm sorry" without any prompting from me. He said he apologizes in different ways. I said those are magic words that, when spoken sincerely, can melt almost any disagreement.

Passion, yes, in spades. I think on a metaphysical level, it's that deep desire for a "perfect union," which it feels like we achieve at times, especially during sex, having fun, being adventurous together, even a good conversation. More and more we're on the same wavelength, reading each other's minds, saying out loud exactly what's tucked quietly away in the other's mind. Then in those boring everyday moments of kitchen messes and petty spats, the imperfection becomes clear and we get disheartened. I suppose I'm growing up as I figure out that love isn't constant perfection - it's believing in each other and the bond even when life becomes messy and imperfect.

Well said, I don't hand out likes here, but I wish I could give you 20 on this post alone.

It's big picture thinking. Our society has become an instant and constant gratification mixed with entitlement, mess. Where If your relationship isnt all passion and butterflies then something is wrong.  If you have disagreements it means you're not compatible.  Relationships are work, no matter what kind of relationship it is. People who we love can get to us in ways others can't.  You have to stand the storm because its clear just ahead.

[Weezy1973]

Compromise comes from love. That is each person genuinely wanting the other to be happy. 
 

How to deal with it is realizing:

 

1. Everybody’s different.

2. Everybody’s trying their best to be happy.

 

Love is wanting the person you love to be happy. It’s not about what they can do for you. When two people love each other, compromise is easier because each person wants the other to be happy. Meeting in the middle just makes sense.

[DKT3]

9 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Compromise comes from love. That is each person genuinely wanting the other to be happy. 
 

How to deal with it is realizing:

 

1. Everybody’s different.

2. Everybody’s trying their best to be happy.

 

Love is wanting the person you love to be happy. It’s not about what they can do for you. When two people love each other, compromise is easier because each person wants the other to be happy. Meeting in the middle just makes sense.

I'm not sure if many people actually believe this nowadays.  Maybe I'm jaded but it appears that loving someone means they understand you and fills all your needs. Maybe it's just here, where we have alot of people who have been unfaithful in the past and are reluctant to take ownership,  instead they throw around stuff like incompatibility like it's a valid excuse. 

I agree with you 100%. If you're not willing to look out for your partners best interest then it's a conditional love based solely on what they can and are doing for you in that moment.  Of course that person's cant see the benefits in compromise 

[elaine567]

The problem with Ruby's messy kitchen and Lana's empty laundry hampers is that their partner's have made a conscious and deliberate decision to not do something that is so simple to do, yet they are willing to frustrate and upset their partner over it.
He is an intelligent guy he doesn't need to be continually told to tidy up messes.
He knows he is making a mess and frankly he doesn't care, as he knows "his servant" will sort it out for him and next time he has a lovely clean work  top to work on.
Basically all that stuff is "women's work" and so they refuse to do it...
That is why resentment in women tends to kick in, sooner or later.

Edited May 27, 2020 by elaine567

[Weezy1973]

@elaine567 resentment begins when people don’t accept the world the way it is and think it should be the way they want it to be. This applies to relationships to. What you’re describing is simply what I stated above - everybody’s different. Thinking your partner should be the way YOU want them to be, instead of accepting them they way they are definitely would breed resentment. It would also prevent someone from ever being in a healthy relationship. 
 

Not saying there aren’t dealbreakers, but not putting clothes in a hamper would be a strange dealbreaker to have. 

[clia]

23 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

The problem with Ruby's messy kitchen and Lana's empty laundry hampers is that their partner's have made a conscious and deliberate decision to not do something that is so simple to do, yet they are willing to frustrate and upset their partner over it.
He is an intelligent guy he doesn't need to be continually told to tidy up messes.
He knows he is making a mess and frankly he doesn't care, as he knows "his servant" will sort it out for him and next time he has a lovely clean work  top to work on.
Basically all that stuff is "women's work" and so they refuse to do it...
That is why resentment in women tends to kick in, sooner or later.

My husband has some of these traits as well (😀), and I wouldn't describe it as being a conscious and deliberate decision to frustrate me.  We just have different perspectives.  It doesn't bother him if he leaves an empty Amazon box on the floor all week.  He'll eventually take it out to the recycling, but I reach the point where that empty box on the floor is annoying to me much sooner than he does.  We are different that way.  He's not "refusing" to do it; he just doesn't view doing it as urgently as I do.  I like to clean things up immediately; he doesn't see the need to do it so quickly.  And lana's husband probably doesn't care if his jeans are on the floor, but would eventually pick them up and/or put them in the laundry, and Ruby's boyfriend doesn't care about the wet counter, but would  eventually clean it up on his own.  We are on different schedules, and we can decide to take or leave this behavior.  When it comes to these kinds of things, I'm not sure people can really change; we are how we are.    

[thefooloftheyear]

20 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

The problem with Ruby's messy kitchen and Lana's empty laundry hampers is that their partner's have made a conscious and deliberate decision to not do something that is so simple to do, yet they are willing to frustrate and upset their partner over it.
He is an intelligent guy he doesn't need to be continually told to tidy up messes.
He knows he is making a mess and frankly he doesn't care, as he knows "his servant" will sort it out for him and next time he has a lovely clean work  top to work on.
Basically all that stuff is "women's work" and so they refuse to do it...
That is why resentment in women tends to kick in, sooner or later.

Yes, but hasn't RS often stated that she desires a "traditional man/role" type of relationship?

Perhaps she chose this guy because she thinks he fits that mold, but now having "buyer's remorse" because he's not also doing the "old school" traditionally female role?  

I think I also remember her saying this guy was of Middle Eastern descent....I know those types of guys, I have some in my family and a few friends......Many were raised to see domestic chores as a woman's job...But I dunno with this guy...I do know a lot of them have different and not so progressive views on what a woman's role is in the relationship...Could that be it, who knows?

But as I read it, it does seem like a mother/child scenario at times...This will run most guys off in no time, no matter what brings it on....

When it works as it should, there is no "scorecard" with this stuff.....There in no tit for tat....Everyone is doing their part...All are on the same page...No one is going to b!tch about a dirty countertop when perhaps he may have worked outside all day and is exhausted...Or maybe there is some other legitimate balancing circumstance,.

Yes, there are always compromises, but people don't grow resentful for others when there is a truly balanced scenario...If one is perceived to be doing more than the other, or starts to keep score and get punitive over it, then there are issues that go beyond dirty dishes or anything...There is something wrong there, because when its right you wont do that, IMO...

TFY

[lana-banana]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

The problem with Ruby's messy kitchen and Lana's empty laundry hampers is that their partner's have made a conscious and deliberate decision to not do something that is so simple to do, yet they are willing to frustrate and upset their partner over it.

Yeah, I don't agree with this characterization at all. For one thing, it doesn't upset me so much as it is an annoyance, and for another thing, sexism has nothing to do with it. He does as much housework as I do without prompting, he just has a thing with clothes hampers. Clia's description above nails it: he just doesn't see it as a priority the same way. I have learned to live with it, just as he's learned to be at least 15 minutes early for everything we do. If these are the only types of "compromises" Ruby is worried about I'm sure they'll be fine. It's only problematic when the differences are indicative of more fundamental incompatibilities. 

[Interstellar]

When you were lecturing him the step by step process on how things should be done I thought that’s emasculating. It sounded like a mother teaching her son, lol. I don’t think he should’ve allowed it to get to that point. You’re clean and organize. Fine, I’m with you on that one. He should’ve honored that. There would be no bickering and more peace in the household which he should’ve realized right away if he’s smart. And that lingering resentment over small seemingly petty and trivial things, boy that kills relationships slowly. That and the cloying sameness of being with somebody day in and day out which is why couples also need space and time apart from each other.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Interstellar