amaysngrace Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 (edited) @SumGuyWe wouldn’t want to live in a society that didn’t have a strong economy. There is nobody who would like that since we know no other way. Even when our economy is crap it’s still pretty strong compared to most. Edited May 17, 2020 by amaysngrace 1 Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said: As you can see I am not the only one who took your comment to mean that you were not going to wear a mask. Yeah actually you were but it’s okay. I’ll forgive even if you can’t apologize. Link to post Share on other sites
gaius Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, nospam99 said: @gaius. then it may surprise you that I have a years-long history of reviewing research and data. Almost all (90%+) research for which I've had access to 'look under the rock' (or hood to use another metaphor) has been flawed: poor experimental design, wrong statistical methodology, clearly designed to reach a predetermined conclusion. One example of poor design i.e. failing to ask the right question, that I can cite for the covid-19 situation - I see no indication that diagnosed patients in NYC were asked 'did you ride the subway in the last three weeks?' What do you think the correlation would be? I'll speculate with confidence pretty close to 100%. Add to that likely correlation the causal mechanism of what great petri dishes subway cars are .... well that's a research study that I'll be surprised to see done. The conclusion wouldn't be politically correct. You can't just assume that because our academics and scientists are more often than not a bit of a joke that they're wrong in this case. If you look at the basics of droplets and how they operate, just thinking logically it makes a lot of sense that putting something over your mouth and nose will help prevent the spread. And that idea is reinforced by the most competent people in the world when it comes to coronavirus at them moment, the Chinese. And honestly nospam, if you don't want to believe the basics of droplet transmission and that what they've learned about the virus is accurate so far, why on earth would you still not recommend mask usage. If you don't know either way, err on the side of caution. You seem to be more interested in just being adversarial than figuring out what's going on and what the best way to combat it is. And that might get people killed. Edited May 17, 2020 by gaius Link to post Share on other sites
SumGuy Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, amaysngrace said: @SumGuyWe wouldn’t want to live in a society that didn’t have a strong economy. There is nobody who would like that since we know no other way. Even when our economy is crap it’s still pretty strong compared to most. Agreed. It's just how the costs and benefits are distributed...won't get into the whole Chicago school philosophy...it's just you could roll out the economy with regulations in place to not just protect the workers but also control the spread. It is not an either or, you can have a good economy and protect your workers...and I would argue if you don't want a round two you will roll out protection as well. You could even combine the regulatory protection for workers with a safe harbor from liability for companies, as in if they provide a certain minimum they get protection form lawsuits. It is just the people in power want you to think the only way you can get the economy back up is their way, and anything less than their way is doom and disaster (and ti certainly is for them maximizing heir profits, I mean masks and shields cut into profits sure there is a cost in sickness and death but not one they bear). I personally will not suffer either way, to me enlightened self interest says protecting your workers means protecting your economy because without there work you have none, and more importantly without there spending you have none. There is also the kind of society you want to live in and how you define a strong economy and who it is strong for. Rome at it's height had a strong economy, but one based on slave labor (a huge percentage of Rome being slaves) and conquest. Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 Fortunately @SumGuy we live in a free-market capitalistic society where slavery has been abolished. 🌝 Link to post Share on other sites
Tamfana Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 (edited) You make an interesting point. It isn't free-market capitalist to bail out people and businesses. Which makes you wonder, if we take payments from the group/govt do we also "owe" or reciprocate to/for the group/govt? Taking is a form of buying into a social contract so a lot of people just "bought in," if you will. So what do we owe to each other in exchange for the help, both businesses and people? For instance, does everyone agree that we're going to have to pay taxes to pay for the virus responses, or is there disagreement on that? The more I think about it, it seems that if one takes a business approach- fair exchange underpinning to market theory- yeah, we do have a responsibility to the whole especially if we've taken compensation because we're part of the whole. Edited May 17, 2020 by Tamfana Link to post Share on other sites
schlumpy Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 There is a optimum point at which taxes and the ability to pay cross on the graph. Past that point rising taxes reduces economic activity so that you collect the same money as if there had not been a tax increase. Keep raising taxes and there are people that will not continue to work so the government can take a good part of their income. Instead, spend the next thirty years reducing the size of government. Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Tamfana said: You make an interesting point. It isn't free-market capitalist to bail out people and businesses. Which makes you wonder, if we take payments from the group/govt do we also "owe" or reciprocate to/for the group/govt? Taking is a form of buying into a social contract so a lot of people just "bought in," if you will. So what do we owe to each other in exchange for the help, both businesses and people? For instance, does everyone agree that we're going to have to pay taxes to pay for the virus responses, or is there disagreement on that? The more I think about it, it seems that if one takes a business approach- fair exchange underpinning to market theory- yeah, we do have a responsibility to the whole especially if we've taken compensation because we're part of the whole. People who just got compensated are the ones who contribute to the system all along. The payments were based off recent tax returns. It’s my understanding that if you didn’t file you didn’t get a stimulus. So basically it’s our money anyway. By helping us out and keeping us afloat (the workforce) the government is guaranteed to get taxes off of our future anticipated revenue. Giving us that $1200 is a good investment for them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
sothereiwas Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 4 hours ago, Tamfana said: It isn't free-market capitalist to bail out people and businesses. If the government shuts down a business for some public good, it's completely capitalist to expect the government, representing the public, to make amends. It's a lot like taking a strip of land when a road has to be widened - fair market value is supposed to be paid. Link to post Share on other sites
sothereiwas Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 2 hours ago, amaysngrace said: People who just got compensated are the ones who contribute to the system all along. Most of the people who will be getting checks pay very little in federal income taxes anyway, and even less if looked at in the net. IIRC the payouts start to get clipped at $75K and stop around $100K or something like that. Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 17 minutes ago, sothereiwas said: Most of the people who will be getting checks pay very little in federal income taxes anyway, and even less if looked at in the net. IIRC the payouts start to get clipped at $75K and stop around $100K or something like that. Well they pay more than 100 a month in tax I’m sure. Link to post Share on other sites
sothereiwas Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, amaysngrace said: Well they pay more than 100 a month in tax I’m sure. I'm not sure precisely but back of envelope a $75K taxable income means about $16K in income taxes? That's basically break even point as far as paid in vs paid out, speaking in terms of averages. Most people who are getting checks are not anywhere this level anyway, a large number are $40K or below, which is essentially the no income tax range. Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 4 minutes ago, sothereiwas said: I'm not sure precisely but back of envelope a $75K taxable income means about $16K in income taxes? That's basically break even point as far as paid in vs paid out, speaking in terms of averages. Most people who are getting checks are not anywhere this level anyway, a large number are $40K or below, which is essentially the no income tax range. 10%, 12% all the way up to 22% for the top end of $40000 is not nothing. Link to post Share on other sites
sothereiwas Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, amaysngrace said: 10%, 12% all the way up to 22% for the top end of $40000 is not nothing. It's not actually nothing, but it's essentially nothing. I'd certainly love to trade. On top of that, if one takes the annual budget, divides that by the number of taxpayers, that's a really rough figure of what each taxpayer receives back as a 'benefit' from the feds. Subtract that from the tax a $40K taxpayer pays in. Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 1 minute ago, sothereiwas said: It's not actually nothing, but it's essentially nothing. I'd certainly love to trade. On top of that, if one takes the annual budget, divides that by the number of taxpayers, that's a really rough figure of what each taxpayer receives back as a 'benefit' from the feds. Subtract that from the tax a $40K taxpayer pays in. Whatever. I’ll never crap on someone trying to earn a living. Link to post Share on other sites
sothereiwas Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 1 minute ago, amaysngrace said: Whatever. I’ll never crap on someone trying to earn a living. Me either, I say good for them, up to the place where they stop earning their living and start reaching into my wallet - then I've earned the right to complain about it. Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, sothereiwas said: Me either, I say good for them, up to the place where they stop earning their living and start reaching into my wallet - then I've earned the right to complain about it. Whatever gets you through the day man. Link to post Share on other sites
CaliforniaGirl Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 (edited) Believe it or not, the topic here used to be "on wearing masks" so I was hoping I could share some further weirdness. We went for another "town" walk today. Masks on. This week there were dozens of people. And there were people maskless, clustered together at outdoor tables, eating, etc. As many as 10 people or so. People at a couple cafe tables leaning to each other to exchange comments and kind of laugh, like pre-pandemic normal stuff. And this one big group, looked like maybe two famlies? We passed them. And one of their kids, maybe 5-ish? pointed to us with giant eyes of shock and yelled, "Mommy, look! They're wearing masks!" in the scandalized filterless way little kids do when they see somebody smoking or spitting on the sidewalk or something. Not kidding... The parents said nothing to the child...silently watched us as we walked by... We kept walking...we got smirks everywhere... We left and just took a drive up the mountains... What the actual fark... FWIW, no, I do not live on Mars, yes, it is a red city, yes, people WERE wearing masks before (last week and earlier, I mean) with the occasional exception, it is not a case of literally not knowing about the whole mask thing. We're just not going to him to my town again for a while. It's sad. And weird. I am 100% sure nobody on this thread is going to step up and say, yeah, this happened to me too, because no wah could it have...trust me...I by no means believe this could be some sort of trend of anything. We'll just stick to out wilderness trails, I guess. Saw people there, distancing, having fun, biking, painting, walking, enjoying the sunshine. I...have no idea what just happened. Edited May 18, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl Link to post Share on other sites
Snow_Queen Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 What does one do if you have anxiety over wearing masks? I feel like I am some kind of monster because wearing a mask makes me feel suffocated. It then causes panic attacks. Many businesses won’t provide service if you’re unmasked. I will soon need someone to go to the store for me. The only advice I have come across is to stay home at all times. That becomes depressing. No one else around me seems to have this problem. It really makes me feel alone. Link to post Share on other sites
Happy Lemming Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 9 minutes ago, Snow_Queen said: What does one do if you have anxiety over wearing masks? Have you tried taking some type of anti-anxiety medicine prior to putting on your mask?? Klonopin or similar?? Link to post Share on other sites
Snow_Queen Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 13 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said: Have you tried taking some type of anti-anxiety medicine prior to putting on your mask?? Klonopin or similar?? No, but I practice aromatherapy as an alternative. I do have lavender and other oils/sprays I can try. Maybe that will help. Link to post Share on other sites
schlumpy Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 27 minutes ago, Snow_Queen said: No one else around me seems to have this problem. It really makes me feel alone. Contact the leader of a local church and see if some of the church members will help you out. Link to post Share on other sites
Happy Lemming Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Snow_Queen said: No, but I practice aromatherapy as an alternative. Maybe ask your doctor for a prescription for specific circumstances (like wearing a mask to go to the store). My girlfriend has some "triggers" that cause her anxiety and before things escalate, she'll take a klonopin to settle her. I'd look into this... better living through modern medicine. Link to post Share on other sites
Snow_Queen Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 30 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said: Maybe ask your doctor for a prescription for specific circumstances (like wearing a mask to go to the store). My girlfriend has some "triggers" that cause her anxiety and before things escalate, she'll take a klonopin to settle her. I'd look into this... better living through modern medicine. I’ve had really bad experiences with side effects which is why I practice alternatives. The triggers are fortunately known so it’s more mind over matter. Link to post Share on other sites
Happy Lemming Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Snow_Queen said: I’ve had really bad experiences with side effects which is why I practice alternatives. There are new drugs coming to market (all the time) for anxiety and anxiety disorders. There may be a new one that does not cause you side effects. Link to post Share on other sites
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