Scientific Dictatorship

[endlessabyss]

Hello all -

I was interested in seeing what peoples opinions here are on two people who constantly keep popping up in the news, in regards to Covid-19.  Those two people are this Fauci character and the evil one, Bill Gates.

Frequenting this forum for some time I have gained the impression most lean heavily progressive.  Maybe that has changed, because I haven't been too current.  Anyhow, progressivism is always accompanied with high esteem for science and it's practitioners.

So, I am curious to see if people are comfortable with giving up personal liberties to remain safe from viruses, as what Fauci and Gates are recommending.

Fauci may be a smart guy for all I know, but when he speaks he just doesn't come off that bright; more like a politician than anything else.  He seems to have flip flopped on the sensationalism of this "pandemic".  First it's not very lethal....then it is very lethal. 

Do you believe that humans should never shake hands anymore?

‘I don’t think we should ever shake hands ever again,’ Fauci says

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/i-dont-think-we-should-ever-shake-hands-ever-again-fauci-says-2020-04-08

If so, do you believe we shouldn't hug, hold hands, kiss, have sex?

Furthermore, I was wondering if people are ok with the idea of needing paperwork to prove they are immune from Covid-19, and in the future to prove that you have been vaccinated, to travel and participate in society/gatherings/economy?

"Can you imagine a time where Americans carry certificates of immunity?" Camerota asked Fauci during an interview Friday.

"You know, that's possible," Fauci responded.

And as Gates said: "So eventually there will be this digital immunity proof that will help facilitate the global reopening up." It appears Fauci and Gates are on the same page.

I'm an anti-science guy,  because the institution is too political, and I don't believe these people should have any say so in public policy.  I find it disturbing that this Fauci guy is pretty much running the country right now.  Ron Paul recently said Trump should fire him ASAP,  because he is a threat to civil liberties, and I agree with him.  Gates is just a nutcase, and I've never took him seriously.  He parades himself as a doctor of some sort, when he has no merit.  I often question why he is always making headlines.

 

So, with all that being said, what is your take.  Interested in comments and opinions.

Edited April 12, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed links

[major_merrick]

I think that some are in love with a leftist variety of science.  Fauci should be fired and Bill Gates ought to retire and shut up.  These guys are aligned with the Deep State, and Trump would be a fool to listen to them. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again - mandatory vaccination is a lethal force issue.  If you can't control your own body, you basically have no rights.  We are swiftly approaching the line in the sand....

[Eternal Sunshine]

If it's not mandatory then anti-vaxers will go around infecting others.

[carhill]

They're no Jonas Salk, to be sure.

When was the last time the US economy was shut down by anything scientific, ever? Think about that. Not in my lifetime and that goes back over 60 years. The country has been through a lot and many of we older folks went through diseases and vaccinations when young and the 'cure' was new. My only hospital experience in life was viral pneumonia at age 5. Still, life went on. Some people live and some die and eventually we all die. That's how it's always been and will be forever.

[basil67]

2 hours ago, endlessabyss said:

‘I don’t think we should ever shake hands ever again,’ Fauci says

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/i-dont-think-we-should-ever-shake-hands-ever-again-fauci-says-2020-04-08

If so, do you believe we shouldn't hug, hold hands, kiss, have sex?

Furthermore, I was wondering if people are ok with the idea of needing paperwork to prove they are immune from Covid-19, and in the future to prove that you have been vaccinated, to travel and participate in society/gatherings/economy?

With the hand shaking thing, let's look at it in context.    He said that when we start to reduce social distancing, that shaking hands should not be done.  This is a sensible recommendation and I believe it will be recommended in many countries.

He then went further and spoke of changing our ways so that we don't handshake and how it would reduce regular influenza too, but this was opinion rather than recommendation.  There is one culture (sorry, I can't remember which) which, when greeting, people place their hand on their chest and do a small bow.  Not unlike Japan I guess.   I think this is a delightful way to greet each other and would have no problems with it.

I have no issue with not hugging extended family or friends or even strangers I've just met at a party.  And perhaps people will get more discriminate on kissing and sex if their actions will put others at risk?   For those in committed relationships, it's simply about staying faithful.  

 

[Ellener]

3 hours ago, endlessabyss said:

I have gained the impression most lean heavily progressive.  

Not seen that myself, more the opposite in recent months I've been online here.

Is there such a clear-cut label though? I mean I'm very progressive, but I don't believe in unearned income like benefits except in cases of dire need.

And I wonder how many people in the US who are often ranting against the stimulus payouts or previously against benefit systems etc are now clamouring to sign up for money they don't actually need themselves?

3 hours ago, endlessabyss said:

Gates is just a nutcase

Not seen that. Why?

4 hours ago, endlessabyss said:

Do you believe that humans should never shake hands anymore?

I'm English where people no longer routinely shake hands as in the past there. I'd prefer not to a lot of times if I'm honest, and I don't like feeling forced to hug strangers for the hell of it either! It's a bit fake. 

 

1 hour ago, carhill said:

They're no Jonas Salk,

Jonas Salk was a very ambitious man, as was Basil O’Connor who headed March of Dimes. Salk took his ideas from the work of Hilary Koprowski and against advice ( and modern protocol until now ) immunised thousands of children as the test for the vaccine and fortunately it worked out. But polio was never as contagious as the current virus we are dealing- it is spread from fecal matter infections like dirty hands though...so maybe Fauci has a point.

 

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

delightful way to greet each other

I love the namaste bow 🙇‍♀️

I'm an affectionate person with those I love and sometimes people needing support but prefer to be merely respectful and friendly to strangers!

[major_merrick]

2 hours ago, Eternal Sunshine said:

If it's not mandatory then anti-vaxers will go around infecting others.

I don't get the assumption that people who are anti-vaccine are somehow automatically infected.  In fact, I'm healthier than average and have never had a vaccine in my life.

[salparadise]

7 hours ago, major_merrick said:

I'm healthier than average and have never had a vaccine in my life.

I'm sure that the fact that viruses such as smallpox and polio have been eliminated, and that 90+ percent of the population is protected from whole list of diseases does not have any bearing on your good fortune. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by salparadise

[schlumpy]

Science is just like any other technological tool in a human beings hands. The choice is made to use it for good or for evil and sometimes it's a mixture of both with good and evil being defined within the context of the society along with the era in which it existed. Societies mores do shift over time.

When I was a kid I dreamed of starships and moon landings. In my imagination I walked the surface of Mars and Venus.

Today because of science I am familiar with the surface of every planet and their moons in our solar system. My name is recorded on a chip with the Martian landers. I regularly take a stroll on Mars once a week through the courtesy of NASA and the current rover Curiosity.

Other planets have been confirmed to circle other stars although I did not need science to confirm that. My own heart and mind assured me it was true.

Science has improved my life immeasurably but it can be misused as it has been in the past and it's up to us to guard against it.

So I welcome criticism and skepticism. I applaud the Major's willingness to test out the vaccine theory by laying her own well being on the line for what she believes.

Science is wonderful when reined in by the freewill of a free people. 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, schlumpy said:

When I was a kid I dreamed of starships and moon landings.

The president too, apparently we're going back to the moon. I better pay some more taxes @carhill 🤣

[Fletch Lives]

Well I hope people will be able to shake hands again. I think in any event, people can have a lover. Eventually they will have a vaccine. Unless new super viruses like this become the norm. I guess we'll wait and see.

America had to give up some freedom after 911. Perhaps we'll have to give up a little more. With everybody shoe-horned into earth like sardines in a can, and population growing, there may be some changes. I emphasize the word MAY. Time will tell.

But lol on mandatory vaccinations - I think enough people will voluntarily get the vaccination and make it a non-issue.

I think some of the social distancing stuff is a bit of a leap - I can't judge distances very well. I think I'll just stay home, work and play at home.......for now, at least - it's easier.

But on the other hand, I wonder if gloves and masks will become the norm. I used to think it was weird that some Asian countries do that. This virus changed my thinking on that real quick!

When you understand psychology, you learn that life changes - and people don't like to change, and actually go through 3 stages of change.

People accepted the 911 changes, right? Those were a lot of big changes. 

 

Edit: The no shaking hands, and no hugging - this is what really scares me  the most (and masks)..... this could alienate people to an extent. This could really be world changing on a social scale never before seen by man (I wish Redhead would chime in on this).

Edited April 12, 2020 by Fletch Lives

[schlumpy]

4 minutes ago, Ellener said:

The president too, apparently we're going back to the moon. I better pay some more taxes @carhill 🤣

I do hope so Ellener. BTW, the current NASA budget for 2020 is 22.6 billion which is a very tiny percentage (.48%) of government largesse. A part of that package is devoted to the defense department for launching spy satellites and the Air forces super secret fully automatic space shuttle. I do know that even that amount is considered wasted by those who advocate for social engineering which sucks considerably more funds then NASA with very little to show for it except more of the same. That's what you pay taxes for.

How would it turn out if every taxpayer could direct their taxes towards those government projects that they considered valid enterprises? It would probably be a cluster but I find it interesting to think about.

[elaine567]

@Fletch LivesFear is something that concentrates minds and makes change possible.
If i had made a rule and TOLD you to stay home, work and play at home, then you wouldn't do it, you would find ways to get around it, you would get angry and start demanding your rights/
Add a deadly virus to the mix, then you don't want or need to go anywhere...

[Fletch Lives]

Just now, elaine567 said:

@Fletch LivesFear is something that concentrates minds and makes change possible.
If i had made a rule and TOLD you to stay home, work and play at home, then you wouldn't do it, you would find ways to get around it, you would get angry and start demanding your rights/
Add a deadly virus to the mix, then you don't want or need to go anywhere...

 - Absolutely. It's much easier for people to change their mind when it's their own idea to change, rather than being given orders by others.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, schlumpy said:

I do hope so Ellener. BTW, the current NASA budget for 2020 is 22.6 billion which is a very tiny percentage (.48%) of government largesse. A part of that package is devoted to the defense department for launching spy satellites and the Air forces super secret fully automatic space shuttle. I do know that even that amount is considered wasted by those who advocate for social engineering which sucks considerably more funds then NASA with very little to show for it except more of the same. That's what you pay taxes for.

How would it turn out if every taxpayer could direct their taxes towards those government projects that they considered valid enterprises? It would probably be a cluster but I find it interesting to think about.

I want to see something like the Green New Deal passed to deal with the economic and environmental crap here then maybe we can get on with being our higher selves...go explore the universe.

Captain's Log Stardate 2021...🚀

[schlumpy]

2 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

@Fletch LivesFear is something that concentrates minds and makes change possible.
If i had made a rule and TOLD you to stay home, work and play at home, then you wouldn't do it, you would find ways to get around it, you would get angry and start demanding your rights/
Add a deadly virus to the mix, then you don't want or need to go anywhere...

My fear is not for myself Elaine it's for my wife. I can handle personal adversity and make those choice that I deem to be reasonable but this virus does  pose significant threat to her well being. The thought of harm to her is what makes me put on my mask and don my vinyl gloves whenever I break containment.

I agree with you that fear does drive change but fear in it's least rational form can be used to create great evil as attested to by historical events. Healthy skepticism helps us avoid that. 

I hope you had a nice breakfast. I had one of our fake English muffins slathered with butter and topped with a sliced hard boiled egg. 

[Fletch Lives]

9 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

I agree with you that fear does drive change but fear in it's least rational form can be used to create great evil as attested to by historical events. Healthy skepticism helps us avoid that. 

 - but that's a problem with this Emergency. It's a health emergency, and most of us are not doctors and don't know what to do. 

It's like this board - I see people playing arm chair psychologist every day here that have no clue what they are talking about. 

 

 

"Jim, I'm a wuv doctor, not a rocket scientist!!" - Star Trek

Edited April 12, 2020 by Fletch Lives

[schlumpy]

12 minutes ago, Ellener said:

I want to see something like the Green New Deal passed to deal with the economic and environmental crap here then maybe we can get on with being our higher selves...go explore the universe.

Captain's Log Stardate 2021...🚀

If I had my druthers I would bring back the forests that a squirrel could jump form tree to tree all the way to the great plains.

I would have the migrating bison herds that blocked passage to the west for three days while they passed by.

I would have the great lakes so clear that you could see to the bottom while giant sturgeon swam around.

That's my idea of a green deal and not solar cells on roof tops or bird killing windmills.

As far as when we will the explore the universe? We've already wasted fifty years since the last moon landings. Since poverty and social needs will never diminish that exploration will always have backseat in the society you envision.

Did you have a nice breakfast Ellener? Maybe some Texas French toast? 

[elaine567]

3 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

My fear is not for myself Elaine it's for my wife.

Fear for loved ones is still the fear that drives many to stay at home.

Though it seems some sail through it, whilst others who should be fine, succumb.
Toast, orange juice, coffee...

[schlumpy]

6 minutes ago, Fletch Lives said:

 - but that's a problem with this Emergency. It's a health emergency, and most of us are not doctors and don't know what to do. 

It's like this board - I see people playing arm chair psychologist every day here that have no clue what they are talking about. 

 

 

"Jim, I'm a wuv doctor, not a rocket scientist!!" - Star Trek

I agree with you in part on psychology but psychology invites the abuse. It's a soft science without repeatable results and will always depend on the compatibility between the therapist and the patient. The only hard science part of psychology is represented by the drugs that are available for depression and other more major mental conditions.

You have to admit that psychology is regularly invaded by advocates of psycho-babble which rapidly infuse society with labels for mental states that may or may not be valid. 

[Fletch Lives]

1 minute ago, schlumpy said:

I agree with you in part on psychology but psychology invites the abuse. It's a soft science without repeatable results and will always depend on the compatibility between the therapist and the patient. The only hard science part of psychology is represented by the drugs that are available for depression and other more major mental conditions.

You have to admit that psychology is regularly invaded by advocates of psycho-babble which rapidly infuse society with labels for mental states that may or may not be valid. 

 - I agree. For example, there is some pop-psychology out there which is wrong. It actually comes from watching too much TV and movies. I'm not joking.

But you never ask me what I'm having for breakfast or bring me flowers (I'm joking!)!

 

[Ellener]

2 hours ago, schlumpy said:

Did you have a nice breakfast Ellener? Maybe some Texas French toast? 

I am plumping up some raisins in boiling water with cinnamon to put in my oatmeal 🥣

2 hours ago, schlumpy said:

That's my idea of a green deal

I cringed when they called it that, it's just a job creation bill like FDR's...saying that his ideas did result in consolidating our national parks and new farming methods.

2 hours ago, schlumpy said:

hard science part of psychology is represented by the drugs that are available

You think so? It seems to me more 'trial and error' in using drugs to treat mental illness.

And everyone seems to have a mental illness in the for-profit system...

[Tamfana]

15 hours ago, endlessabyss said:

I'm an anti-science guy,  because the institution is too political, and I don't believe these people should have any say so in public policy.  I find it disturbing that this Fauci guy is pretty much running the country right now.  Ron Paul recently said Trump should fire him ASAP,  because he is a threat to civil liberties, and I agree with him.  Gates is just a nutcase, and I've never took him seriously.  He parades himself as a doctor of some sort, when he has no merit.  I often question why he is always making headlines.

So, with all that being said, what is your take.  Interested in comments and opinions.

Science isn't really an institution so much as a method of analysis, the scientific process, which relies upon data and evidence to draw conclusions.  That process plus review are the basis for much of human advancement. 

Neither Fauci nor Gates have decision-making power but Trump and his team do, plus Trump gets intelligence briefings, plus more and quicker information than either Gates or Fauci would- heck even more than Congress does since Trump blocks briefings now that he's shattered checks and balances. Congrats, Trump fans. Eliminating checks and balances has handed Trump unprecedented power but now he doesn't want it because with power comes responsibility/duty and accountability. He told us, he doesn't take responsibility for screwing up.  boo hoo.  

So no, Gates and Fauci aren't nuts and they both have expertise in certain areas.  Expertise is a threat to some, to people who do not want reason and logic to guide society, and to liars and scammers.  

Each time Trump screws up in a major way, the Trump Train scrambles to hide the evidence under a claim of absolute power, and to find others to blame, kind as a bone for his followers to on while he lies and hides evidence.  After four years of this same play over and over, few fall for it anymore.  Many find it pathetic and embarrassing that a president of the United States acts so weak and childish.  

No, Gates and Fauci aren't the problem Trump and his Fox liars are. Internal communications are coming out now.  Trump better dig up more outsiders to blame!  lol

They tried the "but I was being impeached" excuse but that deflated quickly since the only real fight in impeachment was Trump's concealing evidence, his obstruction.  In other words, he did nothing during impeachment so it wasn't a distraction!  He didn't produce docs, wasn't interviewed, didn't testify.  The dummies running his campaign THEN figured out that highlighting Trump obstruction would backfire.  ha!  Such tangled webs he weaves.  

As Bannon said, the strategy is to "flood the zone with "crap." That's all Trump's doing.  

Edited April 12, 2020 by Tamfana

[thefooloftheyear]

I know that the "denominator" for this virus is absolutely enormous...Meaning the people that had it and survived it(or maybe they didn't know it) aren't being accounted for...I think people believe that everyone that gets it will be hospitalized and at the brink of death...NOT the case...I have often observed that the way American's pop pills, its a natural for the immune system to be compromised..  And I have people in my own family that are absolutely paralyzed with fear over this virus...

I heard recently of the story of a former NFL lineman that came down with CV-19...He required hospitalization, while his wife, who also tested positive...had little to no symptoms...Oh,,,and btw, he actually received the controversial and panned  hydroxychloroquine protocol and was released from ICU the next day..

So maybe what this guy is saying is in fact true, but the need to protect the immune compromised is a greater need right now....I get that completely...But the fact remains, the full faith that many people put in the medical profession and its protocols,  may need to be looked at, rather than always taken as gospel...

TFY

Edited April 12, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed external video

[Prudence V]

“Science” cannot be a dictatorship, because it’s not monolithic. The scientific and medical advisors in Sweden are advocating a different approach to those in Italy or South Korea, say. All are informed by “science”, but given the speed of the outbreak and the multiplicity of scientific perspectives, disciplines and orientations, there is no single clear route or one obvious reading of the data especially given how partial the data are. 
 

As a researcher I’m far more inclined to trust experts than I am to trust politicians, and as such I’m reading all the science that’s emerging and acting as guided by the evidence and it’s interpretation by those rational voices I trust. 
 

I don’t know anything about Fauci (or even what country he’s in) but Bill Gates is no scientist - he’s a computer system vendor who dropped out of university, bought someone else’s product and managed to forge an empire on unreliable software. He does have a lot of money and he employs scientists, but he’s not one himself.