In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

June 25, 2019

I know you view MM as a puppet master for me and BS. I am really questioning his motivations... is he really trying to keep me as OW? Sometimes I think so but a lot of times he seems to be trying to juggle everything and everyone so as not to disappoint anyone. I know you will see that as self serving on his part but to me that’s where I observe him being the most miserable. So why do it?

Why would he seek short-term, instant gratification at the cost of long-term pain and drama? Are you not doing the same thing?

My answer is that he doesn't know what he doesn't know. He doesn't have what he doesn't have. He lacks self-control and self-awareness. He doesn't see the games that he is playing. You have plenty of time and motivation to analyze all of this. He likely does not.

It is self-serving to avoid short-term conflict when logically it will lead to more harm down the road. Or perhaps it is just weak, since it won't serve him when his world blows up. You are flattered that he's putting some effort into keeping you happy at his own expense, but I think that's just a reflex of his. He doesn't want to deal with an angry ex-girlfriend and gossipy coworkers at work. At least he's told you he's focusing on his marriage and not leaving, so he can wash his hands of your expectations. If you want to play at love in the meantime, why not enjoy it? Who knows, maybe BW will kick him out and he can see where things go with you?

I don't think there's anything deeper going on. Having sex and being adored is fun. It feels good. Whatever guilt he feels and pressure to be a better husband and dad feels bad. He deals with that a little, then he needs an escape, then he feels guilty and wants to put more energy into his family, then he needs an escape, etc. Vicious cycle.

June 25, 2019

I know you view MM as a puppet master for me and BS. I am really questioning his motivations... is he really trying to keep me as OW? Sometimes I think so but a lot of times he seems to be trying to juggle everything and everyone so as not to disappoint anyone. I know you will see that as self serving on his part but to me that’s where I observe him being the most miserable. So why do it?

I think you give him far too much credit...

Why does he do it? As heartwhole said, because he can. Because, it feels good. You said it yourself - he doesn’t like to be alone. He stays in an unhappy relationship, he works excessively, he has developed a relationship with you because it meets his needs - it’s better than being alone.

He is not selfless and he’s is not trying to please everyone. Everytime he texts you, he does it because it benefits him to do so. When it doesn’t benefit him, he doesn’t text you.

And yes, you are like two teenagers seeking immediate gratification - to hell with the consequences. The future? That’s another day... So far down the road, let’s not think about that... We want to be together and we will be together, regardless of what anyone says and regardless of the consequences! And, dare I say it but you are much like a teenage girl in the way that you have thrown your good judgment out the window because “a boy” has paid you some attention and given you some validation...

June 25, 2019

he seems to be trying to juggle everything and everyone so as not to disappoint anyone.

And the fact that he's juggling you and BW means he is disappointing you both. Neither of you can be satisfied while the other is in the picture. So the juggling is an exercise in futility.

Again, I think his motivation at this point is to avoid the drama of a full-on break-up with you. He tested the waters with that, but he's wishy-washy and you're willing to stick around on any terms, so it didn't stick. His priority is his marriage but you're an OK diversion and back-up for someone who isn't authentic, self-aware, and mature.

At a certain point you'll simply have to accept that his motivations and actions are a mystery, and you'll need to focus on the person whose motivations and actions you can control . . . you. Your choices are just as puzzling and self-defeating as his, so save some of that energy for looking inward and not outward.

June 25, 2019

He is not selfless and he’s is not trying to please everyone. Everytime he texts you, he does it because it benefits him to do so. When it doesn’t benefit him, he doesn’t text you.

I genuinely want to know how you think him texting me is a benefit to him... asking about my day, maybe sharing a funny meme or a bit about his day- especially right now the communication is light... there is no chance of any further benefit to him for another few weeks. Is the timeline irrelevant? I just don’t know why he continues if he doesn’t really want to and/or truly wants to focus on the family. I can’t think of any gratification he is getting at this point - please let me know your thoughts.

Edited June 26, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote edited

June 25, 2019

This is a really bad situation he has put himself in and I guess is so difficult to now extricate himself from.

Co worker.

Co worker he closely works with

Co worker he travels for work with.

Co worker who is now known to friends & colleagues as his OW.

June 25, 2019

Yes- but in that regard what does he have to lose by *really* breaking with me? He knows I won’t “cause trouble” in regard to BS or the workplace.

June 26, 2019

But he did break up with you. Unless I missed a post saying you're back together, all you have from him now is that he's working on his marriage and a few ILYs and IMYs over text or call. Not much of a relationship and if it is, it's a far cry from 2 months ago. Crumbs ....

June 26, 2019

Yes- but in that regard what does he have to lose by *really* breaking with me? He knows I won’t “cause trouble” in regard to BS or the workplace.

The trouble he wants to avoid is an angsty break-up and all the ensuing stress and drama.

You are viewing this through the wrong lens. It shouldn't be, "If he really didn't love me he would fully reject me." It should be, "If he really loved me he would fully embrace a real relationship with me."

(I'm using "love" here as we use it in affairs, as a passionate feeling.)

June 26, 2019

But he did break up with you. Unless I missed a post saying you're back together, all you have from him now is that he's working on his marriage and a few ILYs and IMYs over text or call. Not much of a relationship and if it is, it's a far cry from 2 months ago. Crumbs ....

He called me in mid-May and said something along the lines of “I love you and I want you in my life and I may regret this but I need to focus on the family right now”. We had NC for 2.5 days which he broke and he continued to spend hours each day initiating texting and the occasional phone call. He also arranged to spend five days with me on a trip (last week of May), and then another five days together two weeks later- only interrupted by his anniversary (at the last minute he felt guilty and spent that night alone). That week, he invited me to join him for a long weekend two weeks from now when he will be traveling in my area.

Last week and this week he is on holiday with his family. Communication has been all over the place, from spending several hours with me (via text) on Saturday (he was at home over the weekend), to x-rated messages on Saturday night, to very little communication the past three days (they are traveling again) - although he has “checked in” every day.

The difference between now and “before” is that there is little to no future faking, and limited “us” talk... otherwise communication has been similar, although the being on holiday part is challenging; this is the most amount of time he has spent away with family since I’ve known him. Whether things resume more or less as normal in terms of frequency and content after his holiday will become more apparent next week.

No joke, the last week and a half has been very hard, and tonight I’m barely sleeping- when I do doze off I dream about him... not necessarily a good thing right now when my mind needs some peace. I have wondered several times whether this holiday time would result in ghosting or a slow fade of some kind, but the last couple of times I thought that might be starting he then was very attentive when he had the opportunity.

So I will see what the next couple of weeks may bring to know more about where we are at. “Back together”? Certainly not like before, but much is the same as far as his behavior.

I found myself starting to have a few little waves of anger- his behavior regarding his anniversary started to piss me off... spending time and sleeping with me all week, not telling me of the occasion, going to dinner with me that night, then at the last minute telling me via text what the day was and that he felt too bad about it to spend the night- and he wrote BS a very public declaration of love and commitment on social media. He was back the next day though.

At the time I was in such emotional turmoil that I went with it... now I realize how unfair he was to both BS and me. He could have chose me and more or less ignored his anniversary; he could have chose BS and spent it with her. Instead he was smack in the middle; which seems illustrative of his mindset lately. It makes it hard for me to keep up, which I don’t appreciate. In some ways I’m hoping these flickers of anger fan into a flame that I can use to make my decisions... hoping I can finally get good and angry about the ramifications for everyone involved... hoping the anger does not turn to despair too quickly.

Edited June 26, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

June 26, 2019

I genuinely want to know how you think him texting me is a benefit to him... asking about my day, maybe sharing a funny meme or a bit about his day- especially right now the communication is light... there is no chance of any further benefit to him for another few weeks. Is the timeline irrelevant? I just don’t know why he continues if he doesn’t really want to and/or truly wants to focus on the family. I can’t think of any gratification he is getting at this point - please let me know your thoughts.

Because he’s dangling the carrot on the end of the string. He is putting in minimal effort to keep you putting out when he sees you again. He also truly cares about you, that isn’t a question. However, he cares about himself more. And he might be addicted to the drama just as much as you are. The point isn’t that he texts you or doesn’t- it’s that he won’t make a decision and stick to it.

If he truly loved you he would either let you go completely or divorce his wife and be with you. This whole wishy washy half relationship gives him an out to not have to make a decision.

June 26, 2019

He called me in mid-May and said something along the lines of Â“I love you and I want you in my life and I may regret this but I need to focus on the family right nowÂ”.

The difference between now and Â“beforeÂ” is that there is little to no future faking, and limited Â“usÂ” talk... otherwise communication has been similar.

So I will see what the next couple of weeks may bring to know more about where we are at. Â“Back togetherÂ”? Certainly not like before, but much is the same as far as his behavior.

now I realize how unfair he was to both BS and me. He could have chose me and more or less ignored his anniversary; he could have chose BS and spent it with her. Instead he was smack in the middle; which seems illustrative of his mindset lately.

asaysno ... you are the only one that doesn't see it. He has demoted you from the girlfriend he was making future plans with to the side piece he has fun with on his road trips. You are back with him, on his terms, as his travel bed companion. Yes he wants you in his life as an OW. That's it. He's told you he's focusing on his marriage. He was even too guilty to spend the night of his anniversary with you despite the fact BS wasn't there.

Yes he is being unfair to both of you, but less so to you because whether implicitly or explicitly, you have agreed to his terms. BS has agreed to none of this. And don't condemn him for walking the middle line or sitting on the fence. You can't because you have agreed to it. He's walking the middle because he can and will do so until you say no or BS gives an ultimatum. You will have to learn the hard way like most of us do. And it will hurt like nothing else ever.

Edited June 26, 2019 by LilKatKat

June 26, 2019

If he truly loved you he would either let you go completely or divorce his wife and be with you. This whole wishy washy half relationship gives him an out to not have to make a decision.

Yes- he actually told me several times early in our relationship that he was great at making decisive strategic moves and decisions professionally but sucks at it personally - he says he is a coward in that regard. I guess there is at least enough self awareness there to fit this narrative.

What does he lose?

DonÂ’t you think itÂ’s hard for him to give up the ego strokes youÂ’ve offe
HeÂ’s not giving you up...just like heÂ’s also not giving up his wife and cushy home life. He wants both - and he will get it all as long as you keep providing all that for him.

But heÂ’s never going to give you what you need/want - and he knows that.

He will always pull WAY back if you have the slightest little expectation or demand.

Interesting. IÂ’m still not quite sure why it is worth it to him- not a reflection of my worth, but why he would not give me up if it causes him so much conflict and drama. That seems like I do have some power of sorts, because I can give/have something he wants.

Edited June 26, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Merge

June 26, 2019

Interesting. IÂ’m still not quite sure why it is worth it to him- not a reflection of my worth, but why he would not give me up if it causes him so much conflict and drama.

Cost benefit analysis.

At the moment the benefits surpass the risks.

There is a balance there.

In April/May you rocked that balance, he had to cut you off for fear you would ruin the whole thing.

Now you are "behaving" again, balance is restored.

He reminds you to not get too far above yourself, the anniversary night was a case in point, as are the times where you receive little or no contact.

No more future faking and there are few mentions of "us" as that is now irrelevant.

He needs to keep subtly/unsubtly reminding you that his wife is his wife and you are the OW.

He is slowly moulding you to accept the role without question or argument.

June 26, 2019

What elaine says exactly. He is showing you, telling you, that all he wants is side action. And dont be confused, it isnt just sex.

I am uncertainly how or why you feel this is flattering. It is quite insulting that he does not deem you worthy of a real piece of his life.

He will keep you here as long as you allow it. You went to be lonely tonight and had a rough night. He went to bed with his wife, snuggled closed to her. He no doubt kissed her goodnight and told her he loved her... and since they are on holiday together, no doubt had sex. He loves her. He has told you such. He has told the world such. He has told you in everything he has said and done, he is not leaving her. Just because he keeps in contact, just because he plans more trips together with you, does not mean he is planning to change his mind. It just means he has no issue having a side piece.

June 26, 2019

I would be unbelievably insulted about the anniversary.

We know that he has no respect for his wife. A man who loves his wife does not sleep with the other woman the day before and take her for dinner on the night of his wedding anniversary.

We also know that he has no respect for you. Poor tortured soul, left your bed to write a declaration of love to his wife on their anniversary.

Is this the kind of relationship you want? Because - it’s what you’ve got. It’s all you’ve got. A few x-rated texts on the weekend and then nothing - for days. Is that enough for you? Even when he’s “spending time with you” - it’s by text when he is on vacation with his wife. As my boyfriend tells me often, texts are stupid. They are meaningless. They take no time at all and they are easy to do. But, at the end of the day they mean NOTHING.

But you ask, why does he do it? You can’t actually be that obtuse. You are thinking about immediate gratification. I’m sure there is some of that for him - it must be an adrenalin rush to know that your wife is cooking dinner or putting your child to bed and you are sending x-rated text s to another woman who is waiting by her phone to hear from you... But, more importantly, he is looking ahead. He is dangling a carrot because, he wants to keep you on the hook. Are you thinking about him? Does it bring a smile to your face and make you feel good inside when he asks about your day, or sends you a meme? Doing this occasionally, does it make you believe that he is thinking about you... He hopes you are thinking about him. He wants to go for dinner and have sex with you again in a few weeks... He’s looking forward to it!

He is offering you so little. Why do you settle for so little...

Edited June 26, 2019 by BaileyB

June 26, 2019

I think the above analyses are correct, but I'm afraid you may be taking them too literally. I don't believe MM is forming those conscious, explicit thoughts. I don't think he's sitting around saying to himself, "I am training asaysno to accept a crumb." I think he lacks the self-awareness. And I believe he does care for you, and he is mistaking that feeling for love. But I think that deep down, he simply wants and needs the feelings and ego strokes he gets from you, and subconsciously he is doing all these things to keep you there. Even he doesn't know he's grooming you to be a permanent side piece. But it's the de facto behavior of a needy, cheating, conflict-avoidant man.

And if you go along with it, why SHOULD he have to make a choice?

June 26, 2019

I’m still not quite sure why it is worth it to him- not a reflection of my worth, but why he would not give me up if it causes him so much conflict and drama. That seems like I do have some power of sorts, because I can give/have something he wants.

Yes, you do give him something he wants. He wants an escape, he wants an ego-boost, he wants companionship and fun when he's away from his wife.

Keep in mind that maintaining the status quo creates a lot less drama and conflict than ending it does. I think this is more inertia than conscious choice on his part.

I have to say that I can't think of a relationship where I thought to myself, "I have power because I have something s/he wants!" The fact that you are entertaining these thoughts should show you how far from healthy this relationship is. Relationships are mutually agreed upon and mutually beneficial partnerships in which we can state our needs and boundaries and know they will be met and respected. They shouldn't be power struggles, enigmas, or secrets where we don't know if the other person even wants to be with us and we strategize how to secure the other person's commitment.

I found myself starting to have a few little waves of anger- his behavior regarding his anniversary started to piss me off... spending time and sleeping with me all week, not telling me of the occasion, going to dinner with me that night, then at the last minute telling me via text what the day was and that he felt too bad about it to spend the night- and he wrote BS a very public declaration of love and commitment on social media. He was back the next day though.

At the time I was in such emotional turmoil that I went with it... now I realize how unfair he was to both BS and me. He could have chose me and more or less ignored his anniversary; he could have chose BS and spent it with her. Instead he was smack in the middle; which seems illustrative of his mindset lately. It makes it hard for me to keep up, which I don’t appreciate. In some ways I’m hoping these flickers of anger fan into a flame that I can use to make my decisions... hoping I can finally get good and angry about the ramifications for everyone involved... hoping the anger does not turn to despair too quickly.

Good! Anger is good. Don't sit passively by and hope the anger picks up on its own. Make yourself look at how unfair and unhealthy this is over and over until it sinks in.

As long as he's in an affair, he's never choosing either of you. You will know he has chosen you when he has divorced and set up a new life and wants you as his one and only. Anything else is choosing the path of least resistance.

Imagine being wanted by two men, both of whom you care for in different ways. It would be impossible not to develop a sense of entitlement based on how desirable you are. You would give one some affection, and then the other. After all, they lap up whatever you throw their way. Sometimes one or the other gets pissy and needs extra reassurance, so you shift your focus to that one for a short time. You know what you are doing is wrong, but at least the one who's in an affair with you knows that your primary commitment is to your spouse. If he's under any delusions to the contrary, that's just because you're so wonderful and he can't help wishing to be with you full time. And who knows . . . if your spouse left you, maybe he would get to be your one and only. It's fun to dream, anyway.

June 26, 2019

OP, what are your plans for the 4wks you will be working together? Will you be trying to separate yourself even slightly from the situation or do you plan on acting more or less lie a couple for the time he is with you?

Do you think his wife will make plans to visit since it seems like she is suspicious? In fact I would be wary of her arriving unannounced, if she truly had concerns.

June 26, 2019

I was going to comment on your power comment, but then you already received great insights from all the posts that follow it. He is grooming you into your downgraded position, whether he's concious of it or not. True power comes from deciding what you will and will not accept based on what best meets your needs and desires, and then enforcing that by only showing up when those in your life meet them.

Just fyi, my xMM told me in the early days he was a coward. Then I did mental gymnastics trying to figure out if he meant because he was staying in his marriage or because he wouldn't give me the whole truth. Years later, I've come to understand what it means:

1) lies to people involved (fear of and avoid conflict)

2) bamboozles and finagles situations (because it's easier for HIM)

3) makes choices based on selfish reasons

4) would be equally cowardly with me (prime example: ghosting)

There's more because coward means engaging in a whole set of behaviors that hurt people. That's what you have on your hands...a coward. Instead of being honest with people, he does as he pleases because it's easier for him. Is that what you really want for your life? Even if he divorced and furthered your involvement, think of what you're getting: a conflict-avoidant, selfish, lying, cheating coward.

June 26, 2019

I just had another thought...every dollar/euro/pound/yen/etc has spent dining, hoteling, and entertaining with you has been on your employer's expense, right? He hasn't even had to come out of pocket to enjoy your company. He gets to have a good time with an OW, not only at his wife's emotional expense, but also at his employer's financial expense.

Asaysno, think about it...when a man, any man, wants to build a future with a woman, he looks for ways to impress her and show her how he can provide for her. He'll invest his time and money into whatever he believes will make her happy. Your MM gives most of his time and all his money to wife (that's where he's truly invested and continues to invest his future), while spending someone else's money on you. He literally has nothing invested in this. His only risk is if Dday, but I guarantee he's already come up with a game plan to manage his wife. He's strategic after all.

Edited June 26, 2019 by HadMeOverABarrel

June 26, 2019

My husband's affair happened over a big anniversary of ours, and it was the only anniversary where he was silent on Facebook. Every other year he made his profile picture our wedding photo, wrote loving words, etc. I have some theories as to why . . . he didn't want OW to get upset, obviously. He believed his narrative that he was in a bad marriage and was considering getting out of it. He's not fake and not good at being two-faced (though that didn't stop him from having an affair).

It's pretty creepy for a person to spend all day with an OW and then go back to his room and write a glowing post to his wife for their anniversary. How will you ever know he's being genuine when he's writing you sweet posts?

June 26, 2019

Speaking of employers money...

And if this comes to light, will the employer start looking into all this travel and find that maybe some of it was unnecessary? That it was just used as a way to have trips together?

I know my xH was terrified about his employer finding out about his affair. Because his OW was in a different city. Though he had business there and always had legit reasons for his meetings, those meetings could have been a good bit more efficient. (Aka, met with people all within one trip. Versus going back 2 weeks later). Etc. Had they started looking at it from the lenses of his affair, he likely would have lost his job.

And you are both employed by the same employer. Yikes if this ever comes to light.

June 26, 2019

Asaysno has indicated that they've only done what they would normally do as coworkers, minus the sex part. This is a difficult line to walk, though, when a lot of the travel is discretionary. Even so, this doesn't seem to be a concern for OP. The company allows the travel to be discretionary so they have to know people opt in or out as they please.

June 26, 2019

You're angry about his loving FB anniversary post ... the question is why? He told you he was working on his marriage. That at least in some small way proves it. He didn't spend THAT night with you, although he could have. That is further proof. As a husband, absent from his wife on the day of their anniversary, posting a loving message was entirely appropriate. It is also a very strong message that he meant what he said about his marriage and that your role is significantly diminished, if indeed it ever was as significant as he made it out to be.

With my xMM, I always questioned everything. Even subtle things that might go otherwise unnoticed. Mostly things were consistent, until the end. For example, a couple of weeks before we finally broke up, she sent him a long text about how no one cares and he showed me. Then he raced off to talk to her, which he didn't because she took off. He left me hanging for hours not knowing what was happening. That made me angry that he thought it was OK to leave me twisting in the wind when he could have very easily told me. I let him know that. A week later he let it slip that they had signed up for a work out class together. And the last 2 family pictures I saw, he was standing next to her whereas all previous pictures at least one of the kids was in between them. Subtle things that can easily be overlooked. A week before we broke up I made the comment that sometimes I feel like its just easier for him to live with the status quo and before it registered what I was really getting at he acknowledged that it was. That started the real beginning of the end and it didn't take long. Somewhere along the line, in the 6 weeks of our reconciliation, his resolve dissipated. I paid attention. Until then, he had been quite consistent. I tend to be a consensus builder, try to resolve things without too much conflict. But I will create conflict where I think it's needed to solve a problem. And I did.

If my xMM had not spent the night with me when he could have, I would would have asked him why. I would have asked him why the loving message on FB. I may not have liked the answers but it would be more information to work with. This is a man who stayed with a wife who cheated (assuming that was true and not just a rationalization to you of why he is engaging in one). A man who told you he wanted to work on his marriage. A man who couldn't spend the night with you on his anniversary, even though she was miles away. A man who posted a declaration of love to his wife on FB. If he is doing this in ways you can see, imagine what he is doing when you aren't around. I don't know if he tells you they are not intimate but I would bet my last dollar that if he is saying that, he is lying.

You have acquiesced to being the Other Woman. There is no other explanation. No other interpretation. You can either accept that and move forward with him filling the void in your life or you can cling to hope and get angry about the things he is rightfully doing as a husband should. The former may minimize your hurt in the end, the latter will just set you up for a world of hurt, recrimination and loss of self like nothing you have ever experienced before.

June 26, 2019

Another thought about the FB post. If he didn't want you to see it, if he weren't sending a message and didn't want to upset you, he wouldn't have posted it. He would have called her and whispered sweet nothings into her ear. He could have had a romantic online (FT or Skype) dinner and pleasure with her. For all you know, he did the latter which is why he didn't spend the night with you.

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In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

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