In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

June 2, 2019

Hi, OP. I believe you that his wife is awful, he's genuinely unhappy in the marriage, and he has genuine feelings you. Nonetheless, you are where you are, not where you want to be with him.

In addition, consider that:

His wife appears to be good at manipulating him
There will be a very large cost to divorce (even if she starts working, presumably at entry level)
There is a large logistical cost to divorce in terms of restructuring one's life
He will always be worried about the impact to his son (ironic since the impact of staying married is probably actually worse, but that's another matter)

I think the reality is that you're simply making his awful marriage more bearable for him. Not only are feelings for you balanced against the points above, everything he gets from you makes his marriage easier to tolerate. So, by continuing the affair, you're (paradoxically) making it easier for him to stay.

You're asking for advice - my advice to you is to look at the above and consider realistically what's most likely to happen.

June 2, 2019

Sex is a power play, and taking it "one day at a time" after you made that play is very transparent. As far as I can tell, you're simply working a plan to steal another woman's man, and in the process you've been played by someone who's better at this game than you are.

Harsh I know, but this one's pretty easy to untangle.

June 2, 2019

Have you read LiliKitKat's Never Thought I'd Be the Other Woman thread at all? You're situations are very similar and it's a cautionary tale. But it also should give you some solace in that she came SO far by getting advice hear, reading others' stories, and is now ultimately trying to move on with her wife.

Spoiler alert: Her MM never did end up leaving his wife

June 2, 2019

Yes. We mutually began a relationship because it was something we felt we both desperately needed. We have both said we learned and grew so much we have no regrets. My preference would have been that he go home immediately and break things off with his wife so as to legitimize our path asap. For several reasons that could not occur immediately, which I understood. I supported his path and encouraged him to make decisions on his own happiness - not because of me.

Wow. ... and you engaged in this affair anyway?

To a previous poster's comments about gaslighting, - friends don't do this to a friends family. As much as these married men gaslight their OW to keep them in their place, the OW typically enters the affair with gaslighting of her own. The classic "we're just friends" lie.

Looking at this from the window of a plane above - you are not, and never were a friend to him, or the people around him. The entire basis of your assumptions about why the two of you are together is a step by step rewrite of this history.

June 2, 2019

Have you read LiliKitKat's Never Thought I'd Be the Other Woman thread at all? You're situations are very similar and it's a cautionary tale. But it also should give you some solace in that she came SO far by getting advice hear, reading others' stories, and is now ultimately trying to move on with her wife.
Spoiler alert: Her MM never did end up leaving his wife

is now trying to move on with her LIFE, not WIFE, lol

June 2, 2019

He is the one now moving on with his wife...

June 2, 2019

Lots of good points for sure. I’m not certain where is will end up but in the short term we/I need to make some decisions about whether we continue casually (as there is little “future talk” at this point other than him saying he may regret breaking off our relationship (the path we’d been on anyway) and that some of the things we had planned for the future couldn’t happen “this year at least”. So he rather leaves the door open for something with those kind of comments.

He might tell me in a few days that we have to be completely done as lovers, but I have my doubts on whether that will hold, as we will continue to have contact as colleagues and friends.

Is this him stringing me along? I don’t believe it’s intentional- I think he is still conflicted and may be for awhile.

Hi, OP. I believe you that his wife is awful, he's genuinely unhappy in the marriage, and he has genuine feelings you. Nonetheless, you are where you are, not where you want to be with him.

In addition, consider that:

His wife appears to be good at manipulating him
There will be a very large cost to divorce (even if she starts working, presumably at entry level)
There is a large logistical cost to divorce in terms of restructuring one's life
He will always be worried about the impact to his son (ironic since the impact of staying married is probably actually worse, but that's another matter)

I think the reality is that you're simply making his awful marriage more bearable for him. Not only are feelings for you balanced against the points above, everything he gets from you makes his marriage easier to tolerate. So, by continuing the affair, you're (paradoxically) making it easier for him to stay.

You're asking for advice - my advice to you is to look at the above and consider realistically what's most likely to happen.

June 2, 2019

Have you read LiliKitKat's Never Thought I'd Be the Other Woman thread at all? You're situations are very similar and it's a cautionary tale. But it also should give you some solace in that she came SO far by getting advice hear, reading others' stories, and is now ultimately trying to move on with her wife.
Spoiler alert: Her MM never did end up leaving his wife

Thanks for the shout out Aloha!

Yes OP read my thread. It's 100 pages and near the top but it is literally the diary of the destabilization phase of the relationship. I'm heading out shortly but will post my thoughts to you later. BTW, if you read my thread and don't see the similarities in the plot, I will be very surprised.

June 2, 2019

Well he obviously has regrets now and is trying to put you back into your side piece box.

Still no guilt about breaking up a family. Of course his wife is the evil manipulating one when he is the person who has absolutely no problem lying every day to the person he swore to love and protect. If nothing else he is a coward and a liar, his wife deserves so much better.

How would your 2 household future work? You still work in separate locations, so is it basically 2 separate households with you taking turns flying in for the weekends?

You have to realise it's unusual for MM to leave for the OW, I won't say they never do because obviously that's not true but they're the exception. Then you get the ones who say they leave but in reality are only there because their BW threw them out and they had nowhere else to go. The thing is if you read different forums, inc the separated and divorced ones you'll see that a number of these men never stop trying to go back! Especially when there are young children involved.

June 2, 2019

Neither of us think his wife is evil as I’ve mentioned. She and he have a lot of relationship issues including codependency and emotional abuse and I have witnessed her being extremely manipulative- probably because he responds to it by trying to fix everything. They’ve been in MC for several years trying to learn how to communicate without attacking each other- I think the mileage has varied on that one.

I believe they are very mismatched and both deserve better- because neither one are happy as it stands now. And yes, if splitting would make both of their lives better and it meant their son wasn’t around two unhappy parents I don’t think it’s a bad decision... obviously it is not my decision. As I mentioned, I wouldn’t be surprised if she eventually threw him out.

We live in separate locations but mostly work remotely and could be based in either city... I’m not worried about those logistics.

Well he obviously has regrets now and is trying to put you back into your side piece box.

Still no guilt about breaking up a family. Of course his wife is the evil manipulating one when he is the person who has absolutely no problem lying every day to the person he swore to love and protect. If nothing else he is a coward and a liar, his wife deserves so much better.

How would your 2 household future work? You still work in separate locations, so is it basically 2 separate households with you taking turns flying in for the weekends?

You have to realise it's unusual for MM to leave for the OW, I won't say they never do because obviously that's not true but they're the exception. Then you get the ones who say they leave but in reality are only there because their BW threw them out and they had nowhere else to go. The thing is if you read different forums, inc the separated and divorced ones you'll see that a number of these men never stop trying to go back! Especially when there are young children involved.

June 2, 2019

We live in separate locations but mostly work remotely and could be based in either city... I’m not worried about those logistics.

You have all the logistics worked out aside from the wife. That logistic is proving a little more difficult to deal with...

Seriously, how is it possible that you made this “commitment to each other” when the man is married to another woman... in much the same way lilkitKat booked a trip with her MM thinking that they would be together and had to cancel it because he didn’t leave his wife...

June 2, 2019

His actions and intentions are crystal clear. He’s never going to leave. If you weren’t so head over heels for him you would be able to see how he is gradually detaching from you and lowering your expectations...

This only goes one way from here. I’m sorry.

June 2, 2019

We made a commitment because there was a specific timeline we were following for him to leave based on his wife successfully finishing a vocational retraining program so that she would have a degree, a waiting job, and be able to be self sufficient financially. He was afraid if he left her with just a few months to go she would not be able to finish and it would cost tens of thousands of dollars to pay back based on the program terms. These plans were not in doubt until three weeks ago when he got scared and stressed and guilty and broke it off with me.

We reunited last week but did not solidify anything with regard to the relationship. This is why I am “in a rough place”.

You have all the logistics worked out aside from the wife. That logistic is proving a little more difficult to deal with...

Seriously, how is it possible that you made this “commitment to each other” when the man is married to another woman... in much the same way lilkitKat booked a trip with her MM thinking that they would be together and had to cancel it because he didn’t leave his wife...

June 2, 2019

This is entirely possible... I’m not sure how much back and forth we will have in the meantime. I am scheduled to take a five hour road trip with him in a week to our next business destination so at the very least there is time to talk then and sort things out one way or another.

His actions and intentions are crystal clear. He’s never going to leave. If you weren’t so head over heels for him you would be able to see how he is gradually detaching from you and lowering your expectations...

This only goes one way from here. I’m sorry.

June 2, 2019

Why are you leaving it up to him?

You’re single now - go date!

Tell him to buzz off! He is NOT available.

Yes, he’s definitely stringing you along!

1. Because the only choice I have is to officially break it off. I don’t want that.

2. I’m not ready to date as I’m still in love with this guy.

3. I don’t want him to buzz off.

That all probably sounds lame... but it’s my current truth.

June 2, 2019

I'm sorry but you reunited last week because it was easy sex during a work trip. I think you're seeing what you want to see. If this man was planning to leave his wife he would not be bringing her (and his son) to celebrate their anniversary! No matter how much she insists, it's a business trip after all.

June 2, 2019

I kinda confused as to why you're confused. I somewhat get it when a MM is saying we will be together as soon as....then having opposing actions, but here, he is telling you he doesn't want a future and backing it up with actions. Oh, but after you've hounded him he says something to give you hope for the future but still shows opposite actions.

At the end of the day, if a man wants a woman that wants him he will make it happen sooner then later. I suspect most of what is being said is not computing with you, I know in your head you're thinking "they dont know him, we are different, he is different, we share something special, they dont understand " ask lilkatkat, ask Aloha, ask the countless other women here that was once in your position if they at one point thought the same.

9%....that is the number of men who leave their marriage for OW. Every OW that is looking for that believes they are special, that their situation is unique and different. 91% are wrong.

June 2, 2019

I don’t think he is actively planning to leave her- not at this point. He has said as much with breaking it off with me because of wanting to focus on the family and try to make his son happy. But I also know that he is conflicted and that his marriage is still miserable in many ways... so who knows if/when the next flip flop will be. It’s not something I’m counting on. However I still have very strong feelings and am trying to figure out if/where any sort of relationship fits into all this... colleagues, friends, more, whatever.

I'm sorry but you reunited last week because it was easy sex during a work trip. I think you're seeing what you want to see. If this man was planning to leave his wife he would not be bringing her (and his son) to celebrate their anniversary! No matter how much she insists, it's a business trip after all.

June 2, 2019

I hear you- I really do. I’m confused because he is all over the place in his communication... he broke it off, then planned last week for us to be together for five days, then spent the weekend with family, then told me he will let me know on things when I see him again next week.

I kinda confused as to why you're confused. I somewhat get it when a MM is saying we will be together as soon as....then having opposing actions, but here, he is telling you he doesn't want a future and backing it up with actions. Oh, but after you've hounded him he says something to give you hope for the future but still shows opposite actions.

At the end of the day, if a man wants a woman that wants him he will make it happen sooner then later. I suspect most of what is being said is not computing with you, I know in your head you're thinking "they dont know him, we are different, he is different, we share something special, they dont understand " ask lilkatkat, ask Aloha, ask the countless other women here that was once in your position if they at one point thought the same.

9%....that is the number of men who leave their marriage for OW. Every OW that is looking for that believes they are special, that their situation is unique and different. 91% are wrong.

June 2, 2019

How do you suggest I use my power?

Ok then. Accept your role as ONLY his OW when it’s convenient for him.

You have handed this married man all of YOUR power - so expect to feel used and abused... because that is what you have agreed to every time you see him.

That is your reality. If you don’t intend to change it - then accept it as a secondary role you fit into for his benefit.

June 2, 2019

I hear you. I’ve also heard him say something completely different just a few weeks ago so I’m trying to figure out where this will really settle out. I’m not clear today whether he wants me on the side or not.

Once that’s sorted I need to figure out my own response, anywhere from come find me when you are divorced (knowing that may never happen) to yes, we enjoy each other’s company so let’s make the most of it when we are together.

I say you need to figure out your own response NOW. Why must your response be contingent on his? By making it such you are simply putting him in the omnipotent power seat, which will only further degrade you, diminish your value in his eyes (bc you are teaching him you will settle for crumbs and he will learn to value you less and less), all while your self-esteem and confidence takes a nose dive.

The only way to "win" here is for you to take a huge step back, disentangle yourself emotionally, make it clear you will only interact with him on a strictly platonic (no flirting) and business level unless he takes steps to leave his marriage...because he's demonstrating that he never plans to make any changes. I see a man who fancies you, enjoys your company and sex a great deal, but is unwilling to upset his applecart to make anything between you real and lasting. The longer you allow this, without taking charge of the situation by extricating yourself, the more entrenched he will become in these cake eating habits.

Don't mistake his sentiment and passion for commitment to you. He is very much still committed to his wife and family, and has told you as much. Please don't deceive yourself because you have too much to lose by "waiting" while he has everything to gain.

After setting a firm boundary about what terms you are willing to accept, force yourself to date around. You will be disappointed by the men you meet because none will measure up to him in your eyes...but force yourself to get it there and mingle. The longer you fixate on the romantic idea of him leaving his current life behind and running into your arms, the more isolated you will become, and the more damage to yourself you will do. I very much doubt you'll agree with me in your current state, but I hope you'll sincerely take my words into consideration. I have been through the entire spectrum with MM...even to the point of feeling like we finally got to a good friendship without any expectation of each other...he would always be married and I was happy to date others to find my life partner while we enjoyed friendly conversions only. Even that ended in disappointment.

Please save yourself the inevitable heartache. If he really intends to be with you in a meaningful way, he will only do it on his own when he realizes your value. He won't do that while you are offering yourself to him at his convenience. It will not matter the friendship or history you previously shared once he begins to see you as a woman who will wait around for his crumbs at his beckon call.

Honor yourself. Only you should determine your destiny. Until he makes a full (lifetime) commitment to you with his past neatly sorted, he should not get a say in your destiny. Be strong and well. Take care of yourself.

June 2, 2019

^^^^this^^^^^

You want to clarify, here is what you do. Tell him no sex, no texting, no anything until you, him and his wife have a sit down. Of course you cant really do that it's a horrible idea in reality. Watch how quickly he cuts you off. Then you will have your answer

June 2, 2019

I’ve often imagined what that kind of meeting would look like.

^^^^this^^^^^

You want to clarify, here is what you do. Tell him no sex, no texting, no anything until you, him and his wife have a sit down. Of course you cant really do that it's a horrible idea in reality. Watch how quickly he cuts you off. Then you will have your answer

June 2, 2019

I'm a BW whose husband had created a set of justifications that were easily popped like hitting a balloon with a dart. I've seen so many OW base their life plans on the justifications of a MM, so when I can I like to share my perspective in case it will help.

MM (and their OW) like to think that it's possible to have an affair and for its impact on the marriage to be net-neutral, but the truth is that the grass is greenest where the MM is watering it. His marital grass is going brown from his neglect and then he's saying, "Well look how brown my marriage is! No wonder I need to have an affair!" Vicious cycle.

MM who have some morals and empathy will need to vilify the BW in order to cheat on her. So he will engage in confirmation bias and will read malice and manipulation into all of her actions, and he will then react like he would to a manipulative and malicious person. Unless the BW is Mother Theresa, she will probably respond in kind with frustration, resentment, and acting out. Vicious cycle.

In order for any relationship to thrive, the participants need to be self-aware (and your MM is minimizing, blame-shifting, and engaging in confirmation bias, so that's not him). They need to give each other the benefit of the doubt that when they say they don't feel well, they really don't. When they say they need something, they really do. Which came first, MM viewing BW as an enemy or him cheating on her? I believe this is a lot less black and white than most OW believe. Only a fool thinks he can improve a relationship while secretly bringing a third party into it.

If you wind up with MM some day, he will still be the guy lacking self-awareness. He will still only know how to be in a transactional relationship, not a transformative one. He will still be the fool who thinks the rules don't apply to him when he feels like it.

It's highly unlikely that his cheating was simply caused by a terrible marriage outside of his control. It's much more likely that his cheating was caused by the same character issues that make his marriage unhealthy.

I've read that 10% of MM leave for the OW. Of those, 3 out of 10 will marry, and then they have a 75% divorce rate, leaving a whopping of 0.75% of affair couples who remain married until death, though to be fair there may be couples who do not admit to affairs who make it. Of the two-thirds of marriages that stay together after infidelity (the discrepancy is because many couples divorce but the MM and OW do not wind up together), a third of those will be transformed like mine has been.

It takes a big catalyst for someone to enter therapy and work hard to unlearn unhealthy coping mechanisms and to develop resilience and maturity. Being some selfish cake-eater and then realizing you are actually going to lose your wife and children is such a catalyst. Even then, it takes time . . . years . . . to become a different and better person. Will he be motivated to make those changes in the midst of a messy divorce, when the OW was perfectly happy with him when he was a cheater? Probably not. Selfish cake-eater will think, "Well, she knew what she was getting into." So even in the rare circumstances you do wind up together, it will just be MM's Dysfunctional Attempts at a Relationship, Part II.

Women can put a lot of stock in feelings. He has feelings for me so he must be serious. I'm showing him happiness but he's too cowardly to choose it for himself . . .

The truth is that it's not our circumstances that make us happy or unhappy. I would still be happy and whole if my husband had left on DDay (after a period of grieving, of course). MM's house cannot be a happy home because he only knows how to be a good partner in the absence of conflict. Every relationship will have conflict, but the nature of an affair induces the OW to deny her feelings and accept the unacceptable.

I'm positive my husband's feelings for the OW felt very real at the time. I mean, he confessed on DDay thinking I would throw him out, I believe. But when I expressed shock and horror, he backtracked. The world he'd constructed where I didn't care and everything little thing I did confirmed it evaporated. By the second or third week he was chirpily exclaiming, "I can't believe I don't miss her more! I thought this would be harder!" Me, me, me.

He was genuinely in love with how the affair made him feel. He was appallingly not concerned about her well-being after he'd written her off. "She knew what she was getting into" was a direct quote. I do believe he felt some guilt about her. He mentioned in therapy that it resonated for him when he read a passage in a book about infidelity that we were reading that mentioned how the MM stole time from the OW when she could have been finding a husband and having children like she wanted. But mostly he took those bad feelings and stuck them in a box, just like he did with everything negative before having an affair.

I was never a callous person who didn't want to know how he felt; he simply hated conflict so much that he didn't share it. His only complaints on DDay were that I didn't ask about his day enough and I didn't walk around town with him any more (I was suffering from undiagnosed chronic fatigue). Imagine my perspective . . . was this a man who making my chronic illness easier to bear? Was he empathizing with my struggles? Was he giving me the benefit of the doubt that I was doing my best? No, no, no. Vicious cycle.

It will be very, very hard work to have a virtuous cycle with this man. He's not equipped for it. You will have to endure a messy divorce, scandal, blame, and shame. He can't handle minor to moderate marital discord, and you expect him to handle this? The odds are not in your favor.

Whether you continue to invest in this relationship or not, I hope you will invest in figuring out how this all happened from your end. Surely the logical side of you knows that this isn't how life-long partnerships are formed. How is your self-esteem? Your maturity? Your resilience? Your empathy? How are your conflict resolution skills? How has investing in this hidden relationship removed you from opportunities to connect with other people? What are you risking? In what ways is the forbidden nature of an affair augmenting and perpetuating feelings that may have waned in a regular relationship by now?

After the affair I looked at my husband's OW's social media from time to time. She posted things about her sorrow and heartbreak for a long time. I'm sure she hoped he would see it, but he put her in the "This feels icky!" box and locked her away. But I looked. Of course I had many complicated feelings about all of this, but my heart would drop every time she wrote about her heartache. I thought I married someone caring and smart enough not to do that to another person. I felt responsible by proxy, though I know I was not. I hope you can dig deep and find the strength you need to choose good things for yourself and others. Affairs of the heart only work when the participants convince themselves they're being loving and doing good by engaging in them. But if that were the case, then your love would stand up to scrutiny and exposure and upheaval. Are you willing to take that bet?

June 2, 2019

I meant to also comment on his behavior in hopes of shedding some light there for you. I see that his confusion is causing you confusion...naturally so. What's happening with him is he's struggling to reconcile his guilt about what he knows he 'should be doing' with how he feels about being attracted to you.

Basically, he desires you and that 'feels' good but shouldn't because it's 'wrong' morally. Meanwhile, he feels 'guilty' for not wanting to honor his commitments to his wife and child. Throw in his thoughts about being a bad guy, cheater, bad daddy for breaking up the family, dishonest husband (even if unhappy), the guy who abandoned all his responsibilities for his mistress...he is having some serious hesitations about wearing those labels. He is asking himself, "Is this really the man I am? Am I really this type of guy?" To be with you he will have to answer yes, and that will be a monumental hurdle for him. Then, he looks at you and says to himself, "Why is she ok with me doing this, with me dishonoring my previous commitments? What does that say about her?"

Meanwhile you are telling yourself you are willing to be completely selfless and love him through it all while he diets it all out. Trust me that you are each having very different internal dialogues about this affair. At the same time he knows he is partly at fault for involving you in this situation so he feels conflicted over that as well. Ultimately he knows you deserve better but that he isn't in any position to give you better. Stay your current course at your own peril...only pain lies ahead on this path. Otherwise, step back and you will gain perspective. Then, only then will his marriage run its natural course whether or not it will demise. It will do what it will regardless of your presence, except demise will take longer if you continue as is...because your support will make his misery with wifey so much easier to endure. On bad days with her, he will turn to you for comfort. On better days at home, he will focus on family to your detriment. As long as he has you to fill the gaps in his marriage, he will never see any reason to leave it, he will never feel any misery in it because you are there with the balm. Of course, no matter what, he may never leave because he doesn't want to be 'that guy.' I wish you lots of love with someone available and willing to give you as much as you are willing to give.

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In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

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