In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

June 16, 2019

I don't see the OP as weak or vulnerable, in fact throughout this affair she has been the one to take decisive actions.

Yes but her actions come from a place of weakness, she is scrabbling around trying to make this vastly unsuitable man hers...

A strong women would have sent him packing back to his wife, a strong women would have thought "Danger! Big mess ahead, AVOID. Abort mission"

June 16, 2019

It's not about you Bailey, I've said it a few times also. It does not make sense though. It's like another form of gas lighting, being dishonest, not telling OP the truth.

Asaysno, stop having sex with this guy until he is divorced. Do that, you will have your answer.

It's not that Asaysno doesn't know, it is that she won't accept it. She already knows if she cuts the sex, he will be gone. She doesn't want him gone at any cost.

She's less confused about where he stands, and more confused about how to jockey him back to the way things were before he 180'd back to wife...as futile her efforts may be.

There's an element of control here from OW perspective, and a hope that she will finally prevail as the clear 'winner.'

Acceptance of the truth of this situation means acceptance of a whole bunch of truths, and she's not ready to face any of it...yet. Maybe in a few weeks, few months, few years, who knows? I hope she will post here whenever that day comes.

June 16, 2019

Exactly, yet we still get OWs here wondering why does he do it?

Because the only other method of achieving this involves an awful lot of cash.

OP, you are in a hotel room just a few doors down from where he is with his family. Downstairs is the concierge, just a few floors below where he is staying with his family.

You are both service workers, but only one of you is getting paid.

Please wake up.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Turning point

June 16, 2019

Because the only other method of achieving this involves an awful lot of cash.

OP, you are in a hotel room just a few doors down from where he is with his family. Downstairs is the concierge, just a few floors below where he is staying with his family.

You are both service workers, but only one of you is getting paid.
Please wake up.

Most OW are not with psychopaths who simply pretend to care about them in order to manipulate them for sex. They see the genuine excitement and affection in their MM's eyes. They are having consensual affairs with MM who enjoy pretending their affairs are justified and meaningful. The problem is when OW think that this consent equals a future.

June 16, 2019

Many of us who have been MW/OW recognize the fact that while in the affair, we told ourselves things to make what we were doing okay. I call it the "mental gymnastics." We take things MM said and look at it in the way that fits the narrative we want to see. We look at our actions and explain them in a way to justify the poor choices we make at the time.

I see those mental gymnastics in your posts. And I think, for this situation, that is normal...but you need a jump out of this vicious circle. I would recommend full NC for at least the few weeks you are not seeing each other. Not to stick it to him, or to get him to do anything...this NC would be solely for YOU.

So you can clear your head, and focus on what you want from life, what kind of person you want to be, how you want to be treated. Focus on the steps you can take to move forward how you want, in a healthy and authentic way. To let some of those mental gymnastics fade so you can see reality and what you want to do about it. I think this would be a positive step forward for you since you seem to be flailing a bit right now. Good luck.

June 16, 2019

op,if I didn't know better, i would swear your mm is my brother.

He's also terrified to be alone. So much so that he will become whoever the person he is with wants him to be to avoid that.

For example, in his first marriage, he was the devoted husband and father, working hard for his family. When he was away working on his MBA, he met and got involved with the woman who would become his second wife. To her, he was the savvy businessman who put himself and making his company grow first because that is what she valued. After they split up, he met the woman he is engaged to now, and he's suddenly the devoted father. She's nice, but a bit of a new agey flake, and he's picked that up from her.

If one were to ask his new fiance about the situation, she would say he's this devoted wonderful father and if he missed out on his kids' earlier years, well, that's because of his second wife. She places no responsibility for his behvaior at his feet, and what she doesn't see is he's like a chameleon. He's terrified of being on his own, and will do whatever it takes to keep that from happening.

I love my bother to death, but he can't be trusted in a romantic sense, and he is a piss poor spouse. I fully expect that, the next time he has to be on his own for a couple of weeks he'll meet someone new and become whatever it is they are looking for. To his current fiance he is a man who was downtrodden by his former wife and taht's why he acted the way he did. The truth? He is a cheater, plain and simple.

June 16, 2019

There are a couple of points I want to address:

His reluctance to be alone does not explain why he has not divorce, it explains why he entered an affair. He was lonely on the road.

Another: saying he only wants sex and if she stops having sex, he will stop communication also gives false hope. While sex is a large portion of is about sex, it is also the attention and admiration. The MM likes the way they look to OW. In most cases, OW are trying to win them from the BS (there are some cases that OW is fine with the set up and have no desire from MM to divorce and be legit, but those people arent on LS), and that OW is giving him all the attention, all the admiration that she can. Praising him. Lots of "I dont understand why your wife doesnt appreciate you?" (Nvm the fact that he is cheating on his wife). MMs are addicted to that as well. So when we tell an OW, it is all about the sex and to see what happens when she cuts it from the "relationship", it just reaffirms that if she doesnt have sex for awhile, yet he is still calling, texting, etc.... he must truly love her and pick her. Also, in this case, they are LD, so to OP, it doesnt seem like only sex (and it isnt fully). So you are just encouraging her that he must really care about her since they barely see each other to be about sex.

Seems like OP will be happy to stay where she is. Always being the OW, as long as he still texts her sometimes and pretends his wife is awful. I have heard other women believing their MM was sleeping in another room because he would sometimes send pictures of himself in the guest bedroom. And of course, that was easy to fix. Run to the guest bedroom while wife is in the shower or doing whatever... take off the shirt, get in bed, snap a picture. Boom.... seems like he is sleeping in separate rooms. All so easy to fake. All so easy to construct the picture the MM wants so that OW will stick around.

OP, if you are ok with that, as long as he is giving you attention, fair. Just be honest with yourself. Also, be realistic about what could happen if his BS finds out.

June 16, 2019

Another: saying he only wants sex and if she stops having sex, he will stop communication also gives false hope.

I haven't given this advice, but I imagine people expect that he will lose interest in her fast this way. Who knows, it could go either way. Given their distance, he might find this a relief since he has been trying to extricate himself but is loathe to give up the sex. Or she might turn herself into the one he can't have and then he'll be in pursuit again, until the cycle repeats.

Wanting what we can't have is a powerful force. We see this so often on DDays when the tough BWs have their husbands groveling to be allowed to stay, when hours earlier they were wishing to be free of the old ball and chain. I think this was at play here when the MM decided he was leaving for the OW. It was so exciting to dream about, but once OP was all, "Hi! I'm ready for our happily ever after!" reality set in and he realized what he would be giving up, just like the MM who think their BW are a drag until they can't take her for granted anymore.

We cannot manipulate others into seeing our worth or doing what we want. We can only determine what we will accept and, most importantly, how we will enforce these boundaries and expectations. If having sex with a married person who is sending mixed signals with no concrete plan for the future is causing you issues, then you can stop at any time. I think it's a rational choice to stop having sex with him until he is separated, but that's for you and your mental health, not to drive him mad with desire so he'll leave.

I don't think you're ever going to get a straight answer out of him as to whether he's open to ending his marriage or this is just a FWB thing. That's because neither of you is in possession of clear self-awareness or a reason for honesty. He's conflict avoidant and would rather tell you what you want to hear than deal with your emotions. You're heavily invested in this working out and are afraid to speak the truth in case you spook him.

Are you OK being "FWB" with this married man long-term?

June 17, 2019

I am trying to figure out exactly what I want and am okay with. In the long term, no, that is not the answer.

I talked at length with a friend about this yesterday and they were understanding of why I am so conflicted on next steps based on recent history and current feelings. The advice was to weigh the pros and cons, and when the pros stop being a longer list, it is time for something different.

So that’s something I need to work through... when I am spending time with him, the pros very much outweigh the cons, and when I am not, it is mixed.

June 17, 2019

You might want to look up “intermittent reinforcement”. It’s a REALLY powerful thing and extremely hard to break away from. And I think it probably happens naturally in affairs. It kind of has to, because of the secrecy.

EDIT: Even the way he stopped telling you he loved you for awhile speaks to that.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Veronica73

June 17, 2019

People tend to look out for number one.

Asaysno was desperate when she came here, her MM had cut her loose and she was lost.

Now after days back to "normality", and a few cooing noises from his end, she is feeling so much better.

He now again says he loves her, so "obviously" he is pretty likely to leave his wife sometime, so she just needs to accept the here and now and it will all eventually be hunky dory...

Only we know that is not how it usually pans out.

Veronica is spot on, "intermittent reinforcement" is exactly what this is.

June 17, 2019

You might want to look up “intermittent reinforcement”. It’s a REALLY powerful thing and extremely hard to break away from. And I think it probably happens naturally in affairs. It kind of has to, because of the secrecy.

EDIT: Even the way he stopped telling you he loved you for awhile speaks to that.

I think this is a valuable concept to be aware of - thank you.

June 17, 2019

Now after days back to "normality", and a few cooing noises from his end, she is feeling so much better.
He now again says he loves her, so "obviously" he is pretty likely to leave his wife sometime, so she just needs to accept the here and now and it will all eventually be hunky dory...

Nope- not feeling “so much better”. Trying to get through one day at a time. The snarky/sarcastic assumptions are not helpful. I understand you are trying to prove a point but none of the above is true.

June 17, 2019

Nope- not feeling “so much better”. Trying to get through one day at a time. The snarky/sarcastic assumptions are not helpful. I understand you are trying to prove a point but none of the above is true.

OK not precisely now that he is back to his wife.

BUT I guess you were feeling pretty good that night in the pub and when he told you he did love you.

Not trying to be mean, just trying to wake you up

June 17, 2019

Acceptance of the truth of this situation means acceptance of a whole bunch of truths, and she's not ready to face any of it...yet. Maybe in a few weeks, few months, few years, who knows? I hope she will post here whenever that day comes.

OK not precisely now that he is back to his wife.
BUT I guess you were feeling pretty good that night in the pub and when he told you he did love you.
Not trying to be mean, just trying to wake you up

She's not going to wake up, Elaine. She's going to have to do this the hard way. Anyone who tries to stop her is a snarky, sarcastic meany. That's why I stopped posting after the post I quoted here. I hope she gets out sooner than later though. The more one invests, the more difficult and devastating it is to get out...but no-one is going to be able to get OP to see the truth until she experiences what everyone has been trying to save her from. It's hard to watch, but it's part of her process. Life has an interesting way of bringing us what we need when we need it. Sometimes those are painful experiences to help us grow and be more empathetic people.

June 17, 2019

She's not going to wake up, Elaine. She's going to have to do this the hard way. no-one is going to be able to get OP to see the truth until she experiences what everyone has been trying to save her from. It's hard to watch, but it's part of her process. Life has an interesting way of bringing us what we need when we need it. Sometimes those are painful experiences to help us grow and be more empathetic people.

This is sadly true - it is becoming more apparent with every post.

OP still very much believes that her ship will come in, if she waits long enough. Let’s not discuss the ethics of her decision, as those are not relevant. The only thing that matters here is finding a way to get him back on board, so she can have her happy ending...

June 17, 2019

This is sadly true - it is becoming more apparent with every post.

OP still very much believes that her ship will come in, if she waits long enough. Let’s not discuss the ethics of her decision, as those are not relevant. The only thing that matters here is finding a way to get him back on board, so she can have her happy ending...

Right. The options are:

1) Be OW indefinitely;

2) Walk away;

3) then there's the option OP wants which is NO LONGER ON THE TABLE...ride off into the sunset with MM.

I almost edited my post above to add:

OW get caught up in the mentality (like you said 'ship will come in')...it's very much like playing casino slot machine. I distinctly remember feeling that way before I first cut contact with xMM. It's like 'I'm so invested, and I could hit the jackpot at any moment.' It's one of the features that keep OW addicted and 'in play.'

One thing that I really like about this thread is that it's helped a lot of people... both those who are LS community and those who lurk. There are probably more lurkers facing tough decisions in their own lives, and hopefully we make a positive impact on them besides trying to help OP.

Reading PinkSunset's thread years ago got me to start seeing my situation with xMM for what it really was, which got me into counseling and eventually posting my own story. LS was hugely instrumental in me finding my way out. Someone said this thread should be pinned in the OW forum due to all the incredible insight offered in it. I hope the mods will consider it.

Edited June 17, 2019 by HadMeOverABarrel

June 17, 2019

A snarky tone makes it hard for us to believe that the speaker feels true empathy and concern for us. As a BW posting in the OW forum I try to be cognizant of the fact that I have my own psychic wounds and triggers regarding these topics, and I try very hard to view the OP as objectively and compassionately as possible. You can offer tough love without sounding like you're making fun of the OP. It's counter-productive to use a condescending tone because the recipient focuses on your tone and not your message. If I'm going to spend precious minutes of my life here dispensing advice, I'd at least like to make it as relatable as possible.

June 17, 2019

To your credit, Heartwhole2, you've been amazing and incredibly kind. When I first started my own thread I felt the BS's were particularly harsh on me, grinding their ax against me bc of their anger from their own situations, so I immediately discounted their advice. Looking back I can see the validity of their points and how I also equated them with my xMM's 'evil' wife. Over time I've come to see the similarities between BS and OW/OM, especially in how we realate to the WW and demonstrate our worth (by how much we tolerate in the triangle).

I'm hoping that other BS's will look to you as a role model after they finish processing their pain. Since I'm not OP's situation, but I have lived it, I can objectively understand what people here have tried to convey in various tones. A lot of it is tough to hear for OP because she's swimming in emotions. Some tones are harsher than others, but I believe all are well-meaning.

June 17, 2019

Once DDay comes around, BS and OW are often in the same position. All those times MM talked down upon his wife, it is now reserved for the OW. When you thought you could trust your MM with your Hope's, fears, secrets, etc.... he spills them out. To confirm to his wife that OW is NOT someone he would want a serious future in. Roles become a little reverse. But we (BS and OW) become alike. We both come to realize it was all a mask.

I am a BS. I have found more help healing and moving past my ex's affair by being here on the OW. Made me see my ex WH for exactly what he is. He is no different than any of them.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Starswillshine

June 17, 2019

Quite frankly, i never fail to be amazed at the BS who post here sharing their experiences in these forums. The advice that is fair and balanced, presented in a kind and compassionate way, brutal honesty offered when appropriate. That takes a strength of character that others will never know.

It makes me angry when someone dismisses a comment as a “BS with an axe to grind” when in truth - that individual is giving of themselves and their time with the hope that they will somehow say something to help save another from the pain they have experienced. Just because the poster is not ready to hear the message doesn’t make the message any less valid or important. As has been argued here many times before, it is precisely the posts that create emotion that the OP need to read, because there is clearly a truth there that the individual is usually not ready to accept...

Edited June 17, 2019 by BaileyB

June 17, 2019

As has been argued here many times before, it is precisely the posts that create emotion that the OP need to read, because there is clearly a truth there that the individual is usually not ready to accept...

Exactly. I've said this many times, I've found the posts that piss me off the most are usually the ones highlighting a nerve I need to examine. Maybe not at that moment, but at some point.

OP's more recent posts remind me of me toward the end of my A. For some reason, I decided to tell my mother what I was doing. I guess I thought she would be supportive. But she was LIVID. And she really lit into me...I don't think I'd been angry-lectured like that since I was a teenager.

But while I remember the sense of the conversation, I don't remember an actual word she said. Because, at that time, I was just not ready to listen. I could hear her words but I couldn't and didn't listen. So I went ahead and continued to make more errors of judgment.

I feel like that's where OP is now...she's hearing our words but not ready to listen. My hope she can reach the listening stage soon. I do think some true NC, like I suggested earlier, would help her get to that point, I hope she can try it.

June 17, 2019

that's where OP is now...she's hearing our words but not ready to listen

I totally agree. She is very selective in choosing which posts to respond, which makes me wonder if she is also selective in the posts she is reading and/or that she is dismissing without really hearing some of the things that have been shared. I hope I’m wrong, it’s definitely the sense I get...

June 17, 2019

Just want to make sure it's understood that my ax to grind comment pertained to my very early days of exiting the affair. It is unfair. It's unfair for an interloper to blame the BS to justify the affair. It is unfair for the BS to put all the blame on the interloper (rather than also WW). During affairs, WW know 100% of the truth, OW/OM know some of the truth, BS know very little truth (until DDay).

With time and healing, I think both OW & BS become more objective, starting with their view of WW and then their own roles in the triangle to understand how each was duped. Duped includes self-deception. That's not to lighten responsibility of the interloper who eagerly awaits the marriage's decline into oblivion. That is an awful truth, and something that OW/OM should examine about themselves. It's a long process. I started in late 2016 and I'm still learning and growing from it.

I stopped villifying BS a long time ago, esp when I realized xMM was not a peach to her either. Once he even told me she complained about the same traits in him that I did. Confirmation that being married to him hasn't been all roses. They've had their ups and downs throughout over 30 years together, and no-one truly knows what's between them but them.

June 17, 2019

I totally agree. She is very selective in choosing which posts to respond, which makes me wonder if she is also selective in the posts she is reading and/or that she is dismissing without really hearing some of the things that have been shared. I hope I’m wrong, it’s definitely the sense I get...

I read them all - and have reread the whole thread many times. I don’t respond when I feel a post is wildly inaccurate with specific assumptions, or if I feel nothing would be gained by arguing something.

Today is an extremely painful day. Trying to be objective and just feel overwhelmed by sadness.

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In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

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