When good goes bad

[ZA Dater]

Everything I keep reading from you is you put in minimal effort and expect explosive results because history... or whatever. You go on a date, show up and if the woman doesn't orgasm when you walk in, "I'm out. I'm not chasing. I'm done. She's not attracted. She wants a guy with more money...". Have a little patience and be able to wait weeks to build a connection instead of hours, otherwise your desperation is showing.

 

You do need to sell yourself different. You won't be able to do that until you believe in the product and your brand. You don't believe in it because every post is about how nothing will work.

 

no woman is going to and you'll talk her out of the sale every time.

 

Here's the thing - if you are fun. If you are not worried about the next day, the next date, the history of dating...if you are not bitter, you are more enjoyable to be around. If you are bitter, jaded, feel like you don't have enough money, are not good looking enough...you are simply not too fun to be around despite putting on your fun face.

 

 

 

Not sure where you arrive at minimal effort, I really did try this time but same result as if I tried very little.

 

 

Sure have patience to once again arrive in the friend zone, my bf wont do this but J will, my bf is too busy but J will help. Frankly I am tired of being used as some person to make up deficiencies in peoples relationships. What do I get out of this nothing, perhaps if women saw these men for what they are they wouldn't be with them to begin with but its great if there is someone else around to make up for there deficiencies and self centred attitude.

 

 

I don't believe in my brand because history has shown nobody else does either, all that happened in this instance is I was free, her friends weren't, I could take her places, her friends couldn't. I was placated with some nice experiences but it was all just a sham.

 

 

I am not fun so end that idea quite quickly, all you advocate here is deluding oneself, which is all great and fine until you realise pretending doesn't get you the end result, I cant pretend to be fun, I cant pretend to like things I don't. Forthright best describes me.

 

 

At the end of the day I got some nice experiences from her, I maybe got a feel what it was like to do things with someone, be it shopping, eating, ordinary things but when I have spent my entire life doing those things on my own its quite nice to, at least for a while not feel so lonely. Even if she doesn't seem me as anything more than a helper.

[Normm]

Even if she doesn't seem me as anything more than a helper.

 

 

And a wallet. That's the troubling part.

[Poutrew]

You main problem is, the way I see it, that you want a girlfriend way too much. Girls can smell desperation the way a shark smells blood. You will not begin to have any success until you truly stop caring. Once the blood in the water clears, the gals will begin to scope YOU out, not the other way around...

[ZA Dater]

And a wallet. That's the troubling part.

 

 

 

I walked right into that so its pretty much my fault I suppose.

[edgygirl]

Well that’s your main problem obviously and at least you recognize that.

 

Have you done therapy for it?

 

With no self esteem you can walk into 300 dates and none will work.

 

I have none so I'll have to find another way.

[ZA Dater]

Well that’s your main problem obviously and at least you recognize that.

 

Have you done therapy for it?

 

With no self esteem you can walk into 300 dates and none will work.

 

Not sure I agree with this. When I look at the dates I go on and try and understand why they don't work or the people don't find me attractive its never really this that's the issues, its the market that's the issue, sure someone with very limited options might find me attractive but someone with many options will not.

 

Its really the nature of the game, what I have isn't quite enough to attract the people I want to attract but its enough to attract those with very limited options.

 

I can go out and feign confidence but the result isn't much different. In this instance, nothing I could do would have changed the fundamentals that she is chasing another guy, the polar opposite of me. I actually me another one of the guys she is chasing and when I compare myself to him I don't match up at all.

 

So the result really isn't that surprising and can be rationalised to some extent. The pluses out of this, I did like her enough to push myself out of the comfort zone, I did enjoy some time with her, though part of me wonders if I wasn't being used as a convenience. Maybe I got a glimpse of what it would be like to date someone I like. I really enjoyed the attention, this is more attention than I have ever got before.

 

The negatives, well I still cannot compete. I still have the sense I don't know what the heck I am doing, what I am suppose to do or what I am supposed to say. I still cant read people properly, I still don't seem to say the right things, dinner on Sat night became a non event because she didn't like something I said about the guy she is chasing. At that point I simply didn't care.

 

The big positive was, for a few days I didn't feel the completely empty lonely feeling I feel every single day.

Edited February 4, 2019 by ZA Dater

[edgygirl]

But you know a good therapist could help you with your self esteem right? I do feel it would help you immensely.

 

Have you noticed a lot of cute looking women with ugly men and the opposite is true? Looks are not what does it for most people in the end. And no, it’s not always about money for women.

 

Is there an actor or famous person you look a little like so we can have an idea of your type? And are there any celebrities that look like the type of women you’re aiming for? Just trying to see if you’re being realistic in your search.

 

You probably feel that you’re saying the wrong things because it hasn’t been working. But you sound clever here. I have a feeling you might be coming off as a little desperate and with no self esteem to them. It’s not about looks. It’s because we smell desperation and it’s the opposite of sexiness. Same for men I guess.

 

Not sure I agree with this. When I look at the dates I go on and try and understand why they don't work or the people don't find me attractive its never really this that's the issues, its the market that's the issue, sure someone with very limited options might find me attractive but someone with many options will not.

 

Its really the nature of the game, what I have isn't quite enough to attract the people I want to attract but its enough to attract those with very limited options.

 

..

 

The negatives, well I still cannot compete. I still have the sense I don't know what the heck I am doing, what I am suppose to do or what I am supposed to say. I still cant read people properly, I still don't seem to say the right things, dinner on Sat night became a non event because she didn't like something I said about the guy she is chasing. At that point I simply didn't care.

 

The big positive was, for a few days I didn't feel the completely empty lonely feeling I feel every single day.

[ZA Dater]

But you know a good therapist could help you with your self esteem right? I do feel it would help you immensely.

 

Have you noticed a lot of cute looking women with ugly men and the opposite is true? Looks are not what does it for most people in the end. And no, it’s not always about money for women.

 

 

Therapists are in my view much the same as snake oil salespeople, ask 5 the same question and you will get 5 different answers so I don't really take them seriously at all.

 

Never seen cute with ugly ever (unless there are money involved), its like with like here. Unfortunately my exposure here as been its all about looks and money, if you don't have those and some degree of bad boy about you then you may as well not play.

 

I don't find most celebs attractive at all and no I don't look like a celeb, I am tall, slim and blue eyes.

 

How do you not come off desperate if nobody ever gives you the time of day?

 

At the end of the day she spent time with me, which is more than any other women has ever done, sure it was convenient for her (especially when I paid for everything), I felt comfortable with her, again I very rarely feel this. So really my choice is as it is with K, be the doormat friend who does whatever the bf will not do and try find some companionship benefit from that or just close the page, see the experience as good even if the outcome is poor.

 

Again I suppose I got an idea of how nice companionship is when it really works but I also realise I am severely compromised and maybe it worked here because she was equally awkward, however I suppose a petite fit, fitness instructor is going to have a load more options than me irrespective of how awkward she is.

Edited February 4, 2019 by ZA Dater

[elaine567]

Stop going out with women who are in relationships with, or who are chasing other guys. I know you are lonely but all this altruism is doing you no favours whatsoever.

You are placing yourself in a lackey role and women in general are not attracted to lackeys. Guys who pander to the whims of taken women are not rated highly.

By running errands and being the "go to" guy when she is in trouble does not make you better than the bf, it makes you her servant, and "ladies" do not date servants...

 

 

If you feel you need to be appreciated for your goodness and kindess, go help out at a homeless shelter or raise money for disadvantaged kids or go save a donkey, but do not spend your time doing the "good bf" work for other guys...

She is never going to turn round and say "Oh J, I need to reward you for all those kind things you have done for me by marrying you."

NO, she is going to go, "Boo hoo, my bf's left me, J can you pass me a tissue please... you need to take me out to lunch to discuss my problem, I need to find some other guy soon..."

[ZA Dater]

Stop going out with women who are in relationships with, or who are chasing other guys. I know you are lonely but all this altruism is doing you no favours whatsoever.

You are placing yourself in a lackey role and women in general are not attracted to lackeys. Guys who pander to the whims of taken women are not rated highly.

"Boo hoo, my bf's left me, J can you pass me a tissue please... you need to take me out to lunch to discuss my problem, I need to find some other guy soon..."

 

You say that but what do I chase then? I didn't know she was chasing a guy, how was I suppose to know? She is single by the way.

 

I don't mind helping, at least it achieves the objective of helping someone else and I feel a bit less lonely and irrelevant.

 

The reality for me is the bold piece is probably as close as I can get to a "date" with someone I actually like, which is pretty sad but its also the reality.

 

Honestly when I help someone I feel like I something to offer which is probably why I got so much attention from her, she knew nobody in the city but as she got to know people I became less and less relevant. "would you like to come with me to a trance party" "no thanks, isn't really my scene" "oh ok I thought as much".

 

Ultimately women are going to go for guys who meet their need expectation and I simply don't, which just leaves me either totally lonely or puts me in the lackey mode so I can actually feel less lonely. You try and live most of your life on your own, do everything on your own, lunch on you own, dinner on your own, shopping on your own. Then put someone bubbly, fun, quirky into that equation and its not hard to see why I enjoyed it as much as I did. Was I ever going to get lucky, well my friend pushed me to try date her but the same friend says today "she isn't for you, you saw things which were not there, happens to me all the time" yes sure except he can get a date faster than he can get a take away.

Edited February 4, 2019 by ZA Dater

[elaine567]

You say that but what do I chase then?

You need to identify the type of girl you want and then go hang out in places where you are likely to bump into them.

If you want a trance party girl then you need to go to trance parties if you want a political activist then you go to political events... etc. etc.

You obviously cannot tap into OLD and meet the kind of girl you want so you need to get out there and see what is going on.

I think you need to go to organised events, where you can go help out so you do not look like a guy on his own propping up the wall.

You like projects so make this your next project.

- Find like-minded people to go to lunch with, to have a debate with, to chew the fat...

Stop being the dogsbody to attached women. Be your own man tell them, Sorry, you are too busy and go find something else more productive to do with your time.

[MaleIntuition]

You say that but what do I chase then? I didn't know she was chasing a guy, how was I suppose to know? She is single by the way.

 

I don't mind helping, at least it achieves the objective of helping someone else and I feel a bit less lonely and irrelevant.

 

The reality for me is the bold piece is probably as close as I can get to a "date" with someone I actually like, which is pretty sad but its also the reality.

 

Honestly when I help someone I feel like I something to offer which is probably why I got so much attention from her, she knew nobody in the city but as she got to know people I became less and less relevant. "would you like to come with me to a trance party" "no thanks, isn't really my scene" "oh ok I thought as much".

 

Ultimately women are going to go for guys who meet their need expectation and I simply don't, which just leaves me either totally lonely or puts me in the lackey mode so I can actually feel less lonely. You try and live most of your life on your own, do everything on your own, lunch on you own, dinner on your own, shopping on your own. Then put someone bubbly, fun, quirky into that equation and its not hard to see why I enjoyed it as much as I did. Was I ever going to get lucky, well my friend pushed me to try date her but the same friend says today "she isn't for you, you saw things which were not there, happens to me all the time" yes sure except he can get a date faster than he can get a take away.

 

She brought up the other guy at approximately the same time you somehow friend zoned yourself, or slightly thereafter. What was the timeline? Sounds like you did a bit too much platonic stuffs too soon...

 

Honestly, you are sounding more and more depressed. A gf will not solve that. I second the therapy suggestion.

[ZA Dater]

You need to identify the type of girl you want and then go hang out in places where you are likely to bump into them.

If you want a trance party girl then you need to go to trance parties if you want a political activist then you go to political events... etc. etc.

You obviously cannot tap into OLD and meet the kind of girl you want so you need to get out there and see what is going on.

I think you need to go to organised events, where you can go help out so you do not look like a guy on his own propping up the wall.

You like projects so make this your next project.

- Find like-minded people to go to lunch with, to have a debate with, to chew the fat...

Stop being the dogsbody to attached women. Be your own man tell them, Sorry, you are too busy and go find something else more productive to do with your time.

 

I want one who pays me attention, looks good to me, accepts me for me, thinks out of the box, well spoken. I don't really think you can pigeon hole people that easily though. What we do doesn't define who we are, I detest trance parties but need to accept that seems to be where people meet other people. For obvious reasons politics is out here.

 

I just want someone fun, she breathed some life into me, brought me out my shell a bit and it was quite nice, very few people get that right.

 

There aren't really any organised events worth going to, unless one is religious, which I am not.

 

I never debated anything with her, we just did fun things, well I thought they were random and nice.

 

If I had to do as the last paragraph implies I would have literally nothing in life besides work, granted most of it is work but helping out for the slight bit of attention is like pouring water on dry sand.

 

People like my ability to help, frankly it seems to be the only thing most do like about me.

Edited February 4, 2019 by ZA Dater

[littleblackheart]

Therapists are in my view much the same as snake oil salespeople

 

Maybe you should revisit your position on this and try anyway?

 

My experience with therapy has been overwhelmingly positive so obviously I'm biased, and I also understand your reticence - I had a bad opinion of it before I started.

 

Why don't you give it an earnest shot with an open-mind? I really think you owe it to yourself to explore all options available to you in order to help you gain the self-confidence you say you don't have.

 

How about looking up a reputable or well-regarded therapist in your area (or a bit further afield if you're worried about the stigma), book an appointment and see what they say?

 

It may take a few goes but with a little bit of good faith and trust in the process, it could yield benefits.

 

Everyone posting on your thread wishes you to succeed in your quest and it's good that you keep posting here as an outlet.

 

It would also be really worth considering all other avenues, including therapy, to give yourself the best chances.

 

They won't help with your dating issues, but they may well be able to help find coping strategies and boost your confidence.

[Interstellar]

I didn’t read the whole thread but I just want to comment on your looks.

 

Tall, slim, and blue eyes is what 95 percent of women online look for lol.

 

Come on dude, how many women are in South Africa? You’re telling me out of millions and millions of women there; you can’t find at least one, nice/girl next door, down to earth babe.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Interstellar

[edgygirl]

Wow I can’t believe you’re dismissing science. Some people have to pass through 10 therapists to find one that works for you - doesn’t mean you can’t find one that will do good things for them and their fragile self esteem. Seriously look into the different types of therapy and try to find out one that could be interesting for you. How would it hurt?

 

And I didn’t ask about celebrities that are “good looking” or so! I dislike celebrity culture, I was just trying to grasp how you look like and what kind of women you’re looking for to see if your desire matched reality and what’s possible.

 

Hey it’s ok to be awkward - everyone can find the lid to their pot. I for one prefer shy introverted men who are intellectuals, many times awkward. I don’t like popular type of guys usually. I’m sure there are many women there who feel the same.

 

I don’t want to say this as people will throw stones but didn’t you say you like intellectual women somewhere? Fitness instructors are not usually exactly into intellectual pursuits. I feel you’re looking for the wrong type of people, fishing in the wrong pond.

 

Again I suppose I got an idea of how nice companionship is when it really works but I also realise I am severely compromised and maybe it worked here because she was equally awkward, however I suppose a petite fit, fitness instructor is going to have a load more options than me irrespective of how awkward she is.

[ZA Dater]

Maybe you should revisit your position on this and try anyway?

 

My experience with therapy has been overwhelmingly positive so obviously I'm biased, and I also understand your reticence - I had a bad opinion of it before I started.

 

Why don't you give it an earnest shot with an open-mind? I really think you owe it to yourself to explore all options available to you in order to help you gain the self-confidence you say you don't have.

 

How about looking up a reputable or well-regarded therapist in your area (or a bit further afield if you're worried about the stigma), book an appointment and see what they say?

 

It may take a few goes but with a little bit of good faith and trust in the process, it could yield benefits.

 

Everyone posting on your thread wishes you to succeed in your quest and it's good that you keep posting here as an outlet.

 

It would also be really worth considering all other avenues, including therapy, to give yourself the best chances.

 

They won't help with your dating issues, but they may well be able to help find coping strategies and boost your confidence.

 

 

 

Perhaps there is a reason I view them the way I do....I don't think sitting talking to some random person is going to do my self confidence any good, well it certainly hasn't.

 

 

At the moment I need to decide what is "enough' a great friend an accept I cant do any better than that or keep trying to do the impossible. Accept I will only ever be the friend and at least have something versus nothing.

 

 

The positive with this lady was I could be me and didn't feel bad about being me, she was warm and friendly in a way mot aren't, she accepted me rather than judged me.

 

 

I fear I am fighting an impossible to win battle with dating, I don't think I am ever going to get what I want out of it, sure I might rarely find something really great but its never more than fleeting, maybe that's all I deserve, maybe that the best I can get? Part of me thinks I am better off with these great "remember this" moments than average ones.

[Normm]

.I don't think sitting talking to some random person is going to do my self confidence any good, well it certainly hasn't.

 

 

Oh, I wasn't aware you've had sessions with a few different therapists.

 

 

I thought you just arbitrarily decided that it wouldn't work for you without even trying.

[Orokotikki]

Some people can lead perfectly fulfilling lives alone. Perhaps you should consider to pursue that route?

[ZA Dater]

Wow I can’t believe you’re dismissing science. Some people have to pass through 10 therapists to find one that works for you - doesn’t mean you can’t find one that will do good things for them and their fragile self esteem. Seriously look into the different types of therapy and try to find out one that could be interesting for you. How would it hurt?

 

And I didn’t ask about celebrities that are “good looking” or so! I dislike celebrity culture, I was just trying to grasp how you look like and what kind of women you’re looking for to see if your desire matched reality and what’s possible.

 

Hey it’s ok to be awkward - everyone can find the lid to their pot. I for one prefer shy introverted men who are intellectuals, many times awkward. I don’t like popular type of guys usually. I’m sure there are many women there who feel the same.

 

I don’t want to say this as people will throw stones but didn’t you say you like intellectual women somewhere? Fitness instructors are not usually exactly into intellectual pursuits. I feel you’re looking for the wrong type of people, fishing in the wrong pond.

 

 

 

There is no science involved at all if people need to pass through so many, a science is exact and therapists are merely idea salespeople.

 

 

I really enjoyed her company because she was different a bit crazy, she didn't take herself too seriously and she was warm and friendly. I could communicate, she motivated me to do things I wouldn't normally, mostly because I saw a chance with her, albeit a far fetched one.

 

 

There is no pond where I fit so mostly I look around with jaded eyes, with her I could look through clear eyes and I had a sense of hope, which was rather fleeting, I mean maybe I could have something like this and that was a nice thought.

 

 

In truth women never pay me any attention so some attention was rather nice and that lonely void was filled for a time, she was cheery and those years of dating disappointment went away for a time. I started to believe in an idea which I don't do with dating because the disappointment is profound when it doesn't work.

 

 

As great as she was my limitations soon showed, dancing, with the amount of touching that evening I should have been able to conjure up something from that but I couldn't even get a kiss, another guy would have been able to sleep with her, I couldn't. People learnt this stuff at 16, not 34 and it must have seemed odd to her I didn't make any moves, she even invited me in and I couldn't make anything out of that situation. Its hard to do something if you are too shy to make any sort of move for fear of rejection, its easier to do nothing at all.

 

 

Ultimately the solution for me is to try one friend like her, I seemingly cant do the relationship stuff but I can do the friend stuff, so the reality is I need someone who feels sorry enough for me to give me the attention I want. Honestly just being frank here. She is never going to go home with me but at least I can get some companionship which is better than nothing.

[ZA Dater]

Some people can lead perfectly fulfilling lives alone. Perhaps you should consider to pursue that route?

 

You tell me what to do to not feel lonely and I'll do that instead.

[ZA Dater]

Oh, I wasn't aware you've had sessions with a few different therapists.

 

I thought you just arbitrarily decided that it wouldn't work for you without even trying.

 

Complete and total waste of time they were. They never could work out why I had no friends, the amazing thing about them is they profess to be the most perfect people on earth and yet when challenged cannot back anything up with anything but irrelevance.

 

I have always been shunned for not fitting in and no so called expert could tell me why I should bother fitting in, no expert could give me any good reason to.

 

No, if I am going to waste money I'd rather waste it on something I enjoy doing.

[Orokotikki]

You tell me what to do to not feel lonely and I'll do that instead.

Get a dog. Hang out with friends. Dive into engaging hobbies.

Youth mentor ship programs.

Its just a few suggestions.

If you're just venting, hey I get it, thats fine.

But sometimes things work out when you aren't trying to force something.

And maybe some time to grow and be happy just with yourself, might be helpful.

[Orokotikki]

I have always been shunned for not fitting in and no so called expert could tell me why I should bother fitting in, no expert could give me any good reason to.

 

Regarding this, an obvious answer they could have answered was 'to avoid being shunned.'

 

Not that that is a good enough reason for me, but obvious from you put forth.

 

I would say there is something about expressing yourself for what you ARE as opposed to what you ARE NOT.

[Normm]

no so called expert could tell me why I should bother fitting in, no expert could give me any good reason to.

 

 

Because you want to.

 

 

Because you need to.

 

 

The copay is on me.