When good goes bad

[BaileyB]

@Bailey - She sent me a text, "oh can we meet up for a yoga session and a smoothie" the kicker here being I pay for the yoga session. No reply as to why we didn't meet up last night and cant meet tonight because she has a dinner with a friend.

 

Guess what I am simply not going to respond. Maybe this is exactly what I need to do, do to others what they do to me, instead of trying to be nice to people who aren't especially nice to me or are nice to me only to take advantage of my inherent want to be kind.

 

Huh? Maybe we are missing something here... When did she ask you to pay for the yoga class? Did she actually say that or are you making an assumption? What’s wrong with replying to say, “would love to join you for a yoga class.” You are under no obligation to pay.

 

Your response is passive aggressive. If you think she is making an unreasonable demand, communicate with her (I’ll meet you at class, but we’ll just pay for our own class and then I’ll buy you a drink, if that works for you...). Or, don’t go. Stay home.

[BaileyB]

The mutual friend paid her for the original "one on one" yoga class with ZA.

 

So, the assumption is that he would pay for the next class? This woman has no money and no ability to pay for her own yoga class...

 

ZA, if that is the case, tell her you want to see her again and pick something free/cheaper. If she really wants to see you again, it shouldn’t be a problem. And if she doesn’t want to meet you... well, then you know she is not the one.

[alphamale]

So, the assumption is that he would pay for the next class? This woman has no money and no ability to pay for her own yoga class...

 

ZA, if that is the case, tell her you want to see her again and pick something free/cheaper. If she really wants to see you again, it shouldn’t be a problem. And if she doesn’t want to meet you... well, then you know she is not the one.

 

my "gold-digger" alarm is going off

[Lotsgoingon]

a "pleasant" date is much harder to find the older you get

 

Oh ... ding, ding. I agree with this! ... Yes, sorry ... I may have missed your angle. Yes, as we get older, a pleasant date ... hadn't thought of it that way before ... can be quite good ....

 

Dang, you used the word "older" and new brain cells came alive.

[ChatroomHero]

@CHATROOMHERO

 

 

Ok I have read through your advice. You tell me HOW you move forward when none of the experiences are positive? Its all good and well to say ok move on and find confidence, but how really when there are never any positive outcomes?

 

 

This is incorrect, you said you had a good time with her. That experience was positive. If your only positive outcome is a love connection and nothing less, you need to adjust your priorities and take it one step at a time. You had a fun date, anything else at this point is irrelevant. That's how you move on with confidence. Dwell on the bad and you will live off that and that is what you are doing.

 

On the face of it this was pretty much as good as it was going to get, she liked me for me BUT Â…

 

 

Stop with the but...Everything after the but was what you felt and not what you knew. You went right to the worst case scenario because she didn't call you? Women will not always call or come through, regardless of interest, during the initial stages. You can complain that is not fair, rant against the world, cry to the heavens, but you are just making noise. Accept that fact and go from there.

FYI bars and clubs don't interest me so I pretty much never meet single people ever. OLD is something I am trying to remove from my life because its dire to the point of laughable. Which leaves me with nothing really. Of course a chorus will now chime in spewing anything from Meet Up to Hiking to Ballroom dancing....fact is people don't naturally use Meet Up here.

 

 

 

Hey, if Brad Pitt said he was looking to date but only red headed women on Wednesdays where the temperature is below 60 degrees and falls on a leap year, he will have as much luck as you. I mean your thought is you have not had luck so your plan is to limit your exposure to many places where women might be? Good luck with that. It's a numbers game, I am sure limiting your numbers greatly will help.

 

If I go to A, B and C and don't meet women I am looking for, I am sure as hell not going to respond by saying, "People will tell me to go to D. I refuse to go to D"...Again, how is that working out for you?

 

How about taking your comfort zone that doesn't work and throw it out the window? Don't be afraid to be uncomfortable.

 

 

I refuse to beg and grovel for dates, been there done that and the result isn't any better.

 

 

Nobody said beg or grovel. That is part of the problem, if you think pursuing is begging and groveling, you are doing it wrong. Know what? If she says she will call tomorrow and doesn't call, a man that wants a woman calls her in a day or two. A man who will always fail will say, "She rejected me. She used me. Woe is me, woe is me". What kind of man do you want to be?

 

Let's say she did call you. Do you think at that point she will always call and always initiate? Do you think she won't NOT call the next week? Women hold the cards initially, you need to beat their hand and call their bluff. Instead you are folding as soon as they raise the pot.

 

How do I go on a date and have a good time if nobody I want to date goes on a date with me? I am forced to try and impress people to make them like me because they never do like me, unfortunately its just how it is here. Ladies have tons of choice and the only way is to try impress them enough to maybe choose me, which they wont do because I am nearly 35 with no dating experience and that becomes VERY obvious to the point where I might as well wear a sign proclaiming such.

 

 

This is why you have no confidence. Trying to impress? Wtf? When you try to impress you look like a clown. What's impressive is you walk up to a girl and say, "hi", order a drink, smile at her and walk away. What impresses is when a woman says something and you have nothing of value to add, you don't try to add something.

 

What impresses is when another guy is telling her about his corvette and how he drove it to his amazing skydiving experience last week and you THINK she is all into that, you tell her, "Hey, this Friday I'm going to rent a corvette, go for a drive up to the putt-putt golf course and jump off the Camel's back. Wanna come with me and talk me down if I freeze up on the Camel?".

 

Stop trying to impress. That wreaks of desperation, but I know you think if you don't try nobody will look your way. When you are trying to impress, honestly, it's better if they don't look your way. Unless they love clowns.

 

What you aren't getting is 99.9% of dates I am NOT into, I force myself to go on them to try and learn something but ostensibly they are a complete waste of time from the outset and never am I really surprised by the people either.

 

 

If you are going to go on the date and you are not into it, you will get nothing out of it. If you are going to learn, you need to go on the date knowing you are into going on the date and planning on having fun. What you are saying here is you go into 99.9% of your dates with an attitude of already defeated, nothing is going to happen. No doubt you walk in, see the girl and immediately the date is over, even if you stay two hours. What would you ever learn like that? Stop doing this.

 

Chasing, I have chased people for years, its largely pointless because not matter what I do its never enough I am passed over in favour of someone who in my mind and objectively is inferior so no I don't feel the need to chase anyone anymore, again I waste time chasing what doesn't want me anyway.

 

 

So your plan is to sit back and wait for "the one" to come running up to you on the street or something with a ring and asking you to marry her?

 

 

This right here is the defeatist attitude. Do you realize you are judging and punishing any new woman you meet based on women in your past that have nothing to do with her? You must understand that when you go on a date, you expect this to be the outcome. You ask how do you come to not expect that? By going on a date and not expecting anything.

 

 

You are chasing the wrong way and bailing the chase at the wrong points. All of your instincts are wrong. That is why you chased them away.

 

If someone tells me "lets meet tomorrow, I will let you know" and they don't let me know, I then text them to reschedule and I get no response then clearly the person isn't interested.

 

 

Because you look desperate as hell. Because you are desperate as hell. because both times you are waiting with bated breath.

 

Here is an example. I have a friend who moved 3 hours up north. He told me to add this girl he met at work on FB, we'd hit it off. She is very attractive, so I added her. I said hello. We chatted a while, she lives about 7 or 8 hours away right now. We chatted daily for a couple of weeks and got a long fine. I sent her some texts on Jan 2nd and she responded later that day. two days ago, I was like, you know I never heard back from her, it's been a month. So I texted her, said, Hey stranger, hope all is going well. Two days later, this morning, she texted, Hey babe, how are you...

 

I got a babe. A month later and two days after follow up. If I wanted to see her, I am pretty sure I could make plans to drive 8 hours this weekend and she would agree.

 

You would have bolted on that girl Jan 4th saying, "It's been two days!" you never would have texted her a month later. You would have been feeling rejected again if you did and it took her two days to follow up to you reaching out.

 

You have no patience and it wreaks of desperation. You just had a fun date, from what I saw the girl's only crime was not following up the next day and then right away in desperation to KNOW where you stand, you text her again and she doesn't respond right away, and so you turned it into she is not attracted, she was using you, she was this, she was that...Chill out. Maybe she will maybe she won't respond, who cares? You went on one date, she should rank a .000001 on a scale to 1 million in your life right now.

 

 

You try being confident after 15 years of dating failure with no success to balance that out, put on those shoes and walk in a mile in them and tell me you would be confident. You wouldn't be. Reality is this time I believed I could succeed and guess what I didn't so why believe in something that proven to never happen in 15 years?

 

Nothing I do makes a difference so I may as well not even bother.

 

 

So you've been doing things wrong. Someone is telling you what to do and you tell them that they are wrong. I don't know, if I were you I would protest less and listen more. I mean if I don't know how to cook meatloaf, I am not going to watch a Chef and say, "But that's too many onions...Gravy doesn't get thick enough that way...potatoes should be mashed like that..." just because I eat a lot of meatloaf. I am going to check my ego and learn.

 

I don't agree, you can delude yourself and focus on the good but you cannot ignore the bad, frankly if the outcome is the bad, then there is no good.

 

 

That is loser speak. I play have played baseball my entire life. you fail 6 or 7 out of 10 times, and you are considered very good. Every time I go to bat I feel sorry for the pitcher because I am going to lace the next one right at his throat. I strike out...instead of crying and giving up, I go up there even more confident that there is no way he can get me out twice in a row, the odds are in my favor!

 

I say again what you fail to understand...Confidence is = not being afraid to fail and not caring about the failures and not giving them the time of day. You are afraid to fail.

Unfortunately yes, looks, money, glamour and stature are vital, why because every time I loose out to guys who are better at those than I am, never mind the fact these guys are objectively mostly selfish insular people, that's irrelevant really.

 

 

 

You know this how? Because you are close friends with the guys that woman choose over you? You are close friends with guys that are awful and they happen to pounce on your dates or are you just pretty much making this up based on TV or something?

 

 

See YOU think those guys are better than you. You just admitted it. How can you blame the girl when YOU think the guys is better than you? See, here is a big problem, those guys are not better than you because of looks and money but that is your sales pitch to the women. "Hi, I am not good. Those guys over there are better looking and have money and status. Wanna go on a date with me?"

 

Either you change this about you or don't. But if you want to succeed, either this changes or you lose.

 

 

 

All that happens when I try and date is I get picked apart like a plate of food, the good is never what people want.

 

 

Funny, do you realize you are the one picking yourself apart? So you say you are not as good as other guys and then pick yourself apart.

 

 

YOU are saying you are not as good as other guys and picking yourself apart, but you think somehow a woman see it differently than YOU? Read that again and understand it.

At the end of the day I just see any upside, I can try and try and try but really maybe there are better things to try and try and try at

 

 

if you put the same defeatist attitude in those other things you try as you do with women, your success will be exactly equal.

 

 

.

 

 

 

I was bored. Take my response however you want, but understand I really wish you luck. I hope you succeed, but I think you are tucked in your comfort zone and if you stray one toe outside and aren't met with blazing success, you retreat right back to the deepest part of your comfort zone again.

[ZA Dater]

So, the assumption is that he would pay for the next class? This woman has no money and no ability to pay for her own yoga class...

 

ZA, if that is the case, tell her you want to see her again and pick something free/cheaper. If she really wants to see you again, it shouldn’t be a problem. And if she doesn’t want to meet you... well, then you know she is not the one.

 

She is a yoga instructor, gives classes for a living. Friend paid for the first one I had with her.

[ZA Dater]

@chatroomhero

 

 

There is one big difference between dating and other spheres of life, in my case being mergers, acquisitions and property management/development. I can sit and sit and work on something, feel like I am getting somewhere and for the most part the result is up to me, yes negotiations happen but there is some sort of control there over the end result. If the end result isn't fantastic then the negotiations no matter how pleasant and nice are a waste of time. The point being with work and I work at a problem, rationalise it, see the pros and cons and if it doesn't work I can understand why.

 

 

Doing a deal there are ups and down, the ups keep you going, the downs make you learn. I learn nothing from dating at all, absolutely nothing and sure, there ups but mostly they are artificial ups which have very little to do with how desirable I am as a person but rather my ability and want to help where others wont. Essentially I am just good for one thing: the friend zone.

 

 

The actions of people speak a lot louder than words and when someone ignores you that action is very clear and the inference is clearer still. So tell me what the point is of chasing that person when clearly they are not interested? Its like investing in a building that's going to fall down, sure you can prop it up, perhaps enjoy the pool but the building itself will still fall down irrespective of what you do because the base is not sound.

 

 

I hardly ever find that sound based because I am judged from the outset, this was the ONLY time in my entire dating life I wasn't judged.

 

 

There is no limiting of exposure, I don't work at bars and clubs, I have nothing to add there and yes I have actually tried this, I tried it for a long long time but you tell me how well a shy guy is going to do in a bar or a club? The answer is not well and the already sense of awkwardness I feel is heightened. Nothing I can showcase matters there.

 

 

As for what kind of person I want to be, I don't want to be that guy trawling bars/clubs for the next hook up, usually accomplished by deception and alcohol. I don't want to be that selfish guy who parades his gf around like some object, I don't want to be that guy who simply throws up his arms and says "oh well I have to settle for this, well because nobody else wants me".

 

 

Women hold the cards always, unless one is superficially fantastic in which case then the guy has some degree of choice. Otherwise its a women's world of unlimited choice because the reality is most guys just want one thing, if women are clever they would leverage that and exploit that fact to get what they want.

 

 

Sure go on a date and expect nothing and surprisingly I am never surprised on most dates, they all pretty much follow the same template, the people are all much the same as the next, visually different, intellectually the same, judgementally the same. How do I know this, mention on a date you don't drink and the reactions are always the same, the questions are always the same, it boils down the fact women seem to feel comfortable with people who conform to some sort of social template and woe is me if you don't, then you might as well not exist.

 

 

I view dating is like a salesman selling whatever, the best salesman ultimately wins so yes there is selling involved and selling means impressing or it means being a very good flirt and selling and flirting is best down with charming personality, which I don't have. So I am forced to work with what I do have, which is the fact I don't conform which doesn't work or appeal to most.

 

 

I don't need to think what they are into, its blatantly obvious on every occasion I have been passed over, mostly I got to meet the preferred choice and I made note to try understand these people, figure out what they had which I didn't in the eyes of that lady and so call it rubbish, mostly its just the fact they conform, have snake oil salesman level of charm and apparently are that template. It doesn't matter if they are unemployed so long as they can spin some exotic story why, it doesn't matter if they are unfit, equally there is some exotic story why. Most of what I see are relationships built on half truth and frankly blatant lies but that doesn't matter, so long as he conforms, makes her feel good, has a big circle of friends, she can show him off to her friends as being her normal boyfriend.

 

 

You right I would have bolted on 4 Jan, simply because I cannot be bothered to be strung along and then find "oh I am not interested", that's a waste of time and gives her all the control, been here before.

 

 

I have to sell myself differently, why because the reality is I will always loose out to those guys, I haven't won at dating ever, sure I get friend zoned but that's not exactly a success is it. I am never anyone I wants choice so the reason is obvious. Ostensibly I don't have a sales pitch, they either like me or they don't and none I like do like me so that's that I suppose.

 

 

The only way I am going to move forward is to find some success, until then my views on dating, its mechanics and the what people are attracted to will not change. Nothing has suggested I am going to ever find that success, objectively at least, so the only thing I can do each do, is go out and be what those other guys are not, make myself so far different from them that maybe someday someone I like will be tired of that sort of guy and maybe view me as an attractive idea.

[ChatroomHero]

@chatroomhero

 

You right I would have bolted on 4 Jan, simply because I cannot be bothered to be strung along and then find "oh I am not interested"

 

I have to sell myself differently, why because the reality is I will always loose out to those guys, I haven't won at dating ever, sure I get friend zoned but that's not exactly a success is it.

 

 

 

You need patience and it sounds like you expect instant results in dating. You think you have one good date and everything should be easy and everyone should wear their heart on their sleeve after that and live happily ever after.

 

 

Everything I keep reading from you is you put in minimal effort and expect explosive results because history... or whatever. You go on a date, show up and if the woman doesn't orgasm when you walk in, "I'm out. I'm not chasing. I'm done. She's not attracted. She wants a guy with more money...". Have a little patience and be able to wait weeks to build a connection instead of hours, otherwise your desperation is showing.

 

 

You do need to sell yourself different. You won't be able to do that until you believe in the product and your brand. You don't believe in it because every post is about how nothing will work.

 

 

Ever had a salesman selling a piece of crap and not wanting to screw you? He will answer all the questions like normal, be helpful and point out features and then give you a nudge or a clue not to buy it and convinces you to get the less expensive one. He doesn't believe in the product and tries not to sell it. if you don't believe in your product, no woman is going to and you'll talk her out of the sale every time.

 

 

 

Here's the thing - if you are fun. If you are not worried about the next day, the next date, the history of dating...if you are not bitter, you are more enjoyable to be around. If you are bitter, jaded, feel like you don't have enough money, are not good looking enough...you are simply not too fun to be around despite putting on your fun face.

 

 

I think you are focused on stuck on all the things that you know will never work but taking the attitude, won't change, can't change, I tried all the different things so I am not dateable. The problem is none of that is true and until you admit that, it won't work.

[ZA Dater]

I think I have managed to resurrect this in some form, did yoga with her last night, sat chatting after that and got a very complimentary text back. Met up for lunch today on the beach, just the two of us. It was very, very nice.

 

Chatting about family, growing up, experiences. Was really very nice. I think I am starting to experience some of the things I have missed out on. She says lots of nice things to me and I just relax around her, be me, not think too much.

 

Whether she find me attractive I don't know but I probably have dinner with her tomorrow night. Whatever this is I am enjoying it.

[nospam99]

I think I have managed to resurrect this in some form,

 

What was the communication process that resulted in 'resurrection'? Was there a 'lesson learned'? (Dude, I and several other posters are actually trying to help in spite of you being what I'd describe as an 'uncooperative padawan').

[NuevoYorko]

Nevermind ....

[Normm]

Sounds like you might have a live one.

 

 

 

But I'm not clear on who is paying for the yoga classes that she is teaching?

 

 

She contacts you and says "lets do Yoga" and then you do Yoga, and you pay her for it?

 

 

If so that's weird. Especially if you are paying for everything else including the lunches and dinners.

[ZA Dater]

Sounds like you might have a live one.

 

 

 

But I'm not clear on who is paying for the yoga classes that she is teaching?

 

 

She contacts you and says "lets do Yoga" and then you do Yoga, and you pay her for it?

 

 

If so that's weird. Especially if you are paying for everything else including the lunches and dinners.

 

She isn't into me. Is chasing another guy. So all I have is a friend so yeh oh well.

[ZA Dater]

Sounds like you might have a live one.

 

 

 

But I'm not clear on who is paying for the yoga classes that she is teaching?

 

 

She contacts you and says "lets do Yoga" and then you do Yoga, and you pay her for it?

 

 

If so that's weird. Especially if you are paying for everything else including the lunches and dinners.

 

All I am doing here is paying, which I don't mind. At the end of the day I am the paying friend and she is the pretty girl with tons of options, this is just a variation of what I have with K.

 

Still cant get this right but I suppose I had some good experiences out of this even if I am not the option.

 

Not really so happy with this outcome but I just don't have it. Can't be totally unhappy either.

[Normm]

Cheaper than a hooker. Then again you aren't getting sex. At least not yet.

[ZA Dater]

Cheaper than a hooker. Then again you aren't getting sex. At least not yet.

 

Not going to be getting either. What I have paid so far I could have just bought but at least I got some good experiences out of this even if ultimately it's just confirmed to me what I already know on terms of how attractive I am.

[Normm]

I've heard Yoga can be beneficial. I don't have the patience for it.

[ZA Dater]

I've heard Yoga can be beneficial. I don't have the patience for it.

 

Beneficial for work stress. Useless for dating.

[Normm]

You never know. It could relax you.

[ZA Dater]

You never know. It could relax you.

 

It doesn't help me when I have no company and sitting on my own.

[mortensorchid]

I think it was just a no go, I don't think you were used in this situation. It's the same with a lot of others - you meet, have a drink or a meal, then you part ways and ... Never hear a word from them again. Just the other week I had a nice dinner date with a man on Match. We had a good time chatting and all, then never heard a word from him again. It happens. It just wasn't meant to be is all.

[ZA Dater]

I think it was just a no go, I don't think you were used in this situation. It's the same with a lot of others - you meet, have a drink or a meal, then you part ways and ... Never hear a word from them again. Just the other week I had a nice dinner date with a man on Match. We had a good time chatting and all, then never heard a word from him again. It happens. It just wasn't meant to be is all.

 

It's never meant to be, there is always someone seemingly better. Life goes on. I just become a little bit less interested in dating that is all.

[edgygirl]

ChatroomHero your whole post was the best analysis ZA ever got here. I hope he copies it to his notes and studies it.

 

Reading your other threads, it seems you cut and run at the first sign a woman is not all-in with you.

[edgygirl]

Can you stop saying this over and over and over again in all your threads?

 

Let me tell ya something - you know who are the men who get girls? The ones who don't think like this. The ones who try anyway and don't care about the outcome. The ones who show self-confidence. Self confidence is like kryptonite to women.

 

Maybe I am just being stupid but again it seems to me its a case of someone with lots of interest who can choose, why choose me?

[ZA Dater]

. Self confidence is like kryptonite to women.

 

I have none so I'll have to find another way.