This is what happened

[ZA Dater]

Then tell us why you aren't making a separate project for yourself to bond with women just for the experience? To at least go the first few steps in relationships, to know how bonding with women is different than it is with the mates?

 

I need to find someone who I like who likes me. Truthfully I don't bond well with people...

 

What sort of project would this be

[Garcon1986]

This will be a bit nerve racking because it's outside your typical comfort zone. Sit down and tell yourself, I am going to talk with three separate women for the first two weeks (three per week). The conversation topic will be about an observation you make about the environment. It can be as easy as the weather or whatever is happening at the time. Even if the conversation lasts 2 minutes, it's a win. Then on the next two weeks, I am going to talk to three women per week, and talk to them long enough to know what they like. Women interested in dating should be willing to teach you their craft so you can share in the enthusiasm. You at this point want to sit down with these people and actually have a full on conversation. Then on the next two weeks, you talk to three women again, per week, but try to now ask at least one of those six women out on a date.

 

 

Throughout the entire time you are doing this, you should pick a safe place to peoplewatch at least two people a day. The idea is to watch body language, human interaction, and women's reactions to various things. You might have some personality characteristics that go along the Aspie spectrum but you can still teach an old dog new tricks.

 

 

 

The idea is to improve your social anxiety around women and the attitude of Ohhh man I'm going to muck this up.

 

 

At the same time you should browse the meetup.com link I sent you, and meet at least a few of the people on those clubs.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Garcon1986

[Chilli]

Surprised there's not more women at the car shows and stuff woulda thought they'd be crawling with women but, maybe because they've gone along with their guy so it's probably not much help.

The thing is anything at least gets you out and around people , hopefully women, is not so much about later sharing that hobby or whatever, more so just a starting point and hopefully a way to meet someone a little like minded because often one like spins off into personality and other likes and connection.

l've rarely shared a hobby with my women , it's more about the other stuff

 

Like ex w and l both loved renovating , so we were similar people in lots of other ways too. That was the thing.

 

Anyway , that friend , can you talk to him , are you close ? He could probably spot the issues in a heartbeat and help you out.

 

Here's a thought , got any markets there? Back in the day l loved markets, fulla women, easy to talk to just looking at stalls and stuff.

But parties were always the ultimate l found, even if your not a live wire just spot that chick that's twiddling her thumbs too. lf anyone invites you to parties , go.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Chilli

[Gretchen12]

Why do you need to bond with women initially? That's an express train to the friendzone. Aren't you supposed to romance the woman? and then you bond later as a couple.

You know who can help some men with dating? Nigerian dating scam criminals. They succeed in winning the hearts of (some) women and the fake photos they use are just average looking guys. Obviously these scammers know what to say to women.

[Garcon1986]

I would venture that jumping from zero to romance is rather difficult? We are asking a bloke who has had little success with being with women overall, to reach that level. How would you break it down for someone who has a really hard time with it? I proposed that approach so he can have some little successes to build confidence.

[ZA Dater]

This will be a bit nerve racking because it's outside your typical comfort zone. Sit down and tell yourself, I am going to talk with three separate women for the first two weeks (three per week). The conversation topic will be about an observation you make about the environment. It can be as easy as the weather or whatever is happening at the time. Even if the conversation lasts 2 minutes, it's a win. Then on the next two weeks, I am going to talk to three women per week, and talk to them long enough to know what they like. Women interested in dating should be willing to teach you their craft so you can share in the enthusiasm. You at this point want to sit down with these people and actually have a full on conversation. Then on the next two weeks, you talk to three women again, per week, but try to now ask at least one of those six women out on a date.

 

 

Throughout the entire time you are doing this, you should pick a safe place to peoplewatch at least two people a day. The idea is to watch body language, human interaction, and women's reactions to various things. You might have some personality characteristics that go along the Aspie spectrum but you can still teach an old dog new tricks.

 

 

 

The idea is to improve your social anxiety around women and the attitude of Ohhh man I'm going to muck this up.

 

 

At the same time you should browse the meetup.com link I sent you, and meet at least a few of the people on those clubs.

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing. I have tried similar before, random people in shops etc. check out ladies, waitresses but its just passing conversation.

 

 

Thing is I am not that interested in what check out lady likes...The idea is a good one IF you can get people you find genuinely interesting/ attractive or is the objective to talk to anyone?

 

 

Luckily I have managed to take the pressure off my shoulders by virtue of going on these few dates with no real expectations or very low ones.

 

 

Perception is also a problem here and let me explain why, most of my experiences have been really bad so the want to actually try and invest is pretty low, if I am going to try then I usually do so half heartedly because

 

 

1: The person really isn't for me.

 

 

The truth is I am not just meeting people I am interested in, those I meet I try to convince myself I like them but I simply don't. Conversely nobody I find attractive is really interested in me either.

 

 

I'd rather have a great exceptional friend than an average girlfriend.

[Garcon1986]

Can you describe the personality traits, desires, and wants of the people whom you find attractive, and why they aren't interested in you?

 

 

You haven't told me what you thought about the groups on meetup.com Capetown yet.

[ZA Dater]

Can you describe the personality traits, desires, and wants of the people whom you find attractive, and why they aren't interested in you?

 

 

You haven't told me what you thought about the groups on meetup.com Capetown yet.

 

 

I have no real idea to be honest, I just never get any sort of interest at all. I'd assume its because I am just awkward even when I try not to be, its because I am not funny or because I don't drink. Or because I am not fun.

 

 

Unfortunately I just think what I like isn't compatible with me in any way at all.

 

 

What I find attractive: Someone who has some opinion on something and can actually articulate that, someone who thinks about things, someone who has some general knowledge, someone who speaks well, someone ambitious to name a few. Good looking.

 

 

Meet up. I have tried this before and if anything else I just felt even more out of it, why because integral to everything seems to be either alcohol or religion. It seems the misfits like me either go one way or the other, hide behind either of these two things. I like neither.

 

 

Also the ratio of guys to girls is very poor and sociable Joe is always going to be more attractive than quiet me. So I get left with people with like me who don't interest me at all.

 

 

Edited to add

 

 

The real problem is the people I am around some of the time are the ones everyone would like to be with , I see the guys they go out with and I don't stand any chance at all, looks, charm, I am beaten comprehensively. When I go onto OLD I then try find his same calibre of person and as in person they aren't interested in me but the mom with 3 kids is, the 33yo au pair is, its never the pretty 25yo dynamic ambitious person and yes I do meet some from time to time but no surprise none are single.

 

 

All I really want is some sort of positive experience so I am trying to accomplish that but with no real idea of how to. At the moment its looking like I might have to play economics. Let me emphasise for me positive would be a great date with someone interesting who I liked, its been years since I had one of these. Let me give you an example of the last one, a 29 yo nurse from Denver, worked with terminally ill kids, talked to her for 4 hours and it was great and she was a really nice person and it was a really nice time. Nothing came of it because she was leaving the next day.

Edited November 10, 2018 by ZA Dater

[Garcon1986]

Then have you tried other clubs on Meetup? Surely you haven't been to every single one?

 

What happened to friends in your life who can point out why you are being unattractive to women? Or friendgirls? None of the lads who you go out with are willing to do that for you?

 

Are you knowledgeable about topics that women like to chat about, if you really don't want to learn a new hobby? If not, are we working on that?

[ZA Dater]

Then have you tried other clubs on Meetup? Surely you haven't been to every single one?

 

What happened to friends in your life who can point out why you are being unattractive to women? Or friendgirls? None of the lads who you go out with are willing to do that for you?

 

Are you knowledgeable about topics that women like to chat about, if you really don't want to learn a new hobby? If not, are we working on that?

 

 

 

Friends don't really help much at all most have just accepted me as I am and the fact I never have anyone as a partner. They like clubs and drinking, I don't so I seldom see many of them, some others are married and have their own lives.

 

 

I live from one work challenge to another, one event plan to another, one objective to another. The reality is I have used work to patch over dating, I can sit and work and feel ok about being alone on a Sat night, feel like I am working towards and objective. Or I can go out and feel like a complete misfit, watch everyone around me have what to them is fun, see guys charm ladies while I sit in the corner (metaphorically).

 

 

Here is what I am talking about, I arranged an event a few months ago and we had a premium book presented (it costs $25k) and he one lady...Italian, tall, absolutely stunning and we actually chatted really well, part of me wanted to try my luck but logic said "she definitely isn't single don't bother". I am very logic driven, being rejected so many times I tend to reduce everything to logic because it doesn't become emotive then.

 

 

What to women like to chat about? Honest question.

 

 

I really believe the reason I am unattractive is because I am awkward and have no experience, people say you cant see that but people can and do and I have heard remarks to that effect, once a friend even went as far as to try have me set up as a sort of "pity project" "you know he doesn't have any experience and is very shy do you have any friends who would like him" I actually went along with that and it was singularly the worst dating evening, what turned up were three party type ladies, they took one look at me and proceeded to rather talk to anyone else at the table but me.

 

 

Essentially they just looked down on me.

 

 

Your logic is very good but I look at my friends, they are themselves, they don't go and learn new hobbies to meet ladies, they just do what they like and it just seems to work for them. I can go out now, dress up, go and sit in a bar and get not attention whatsoever and just come home feeling sh*t about myself.

 

 

What I try and do on Tinder is match with people with the view of trying to get them to like me via conversation in the hope if I can get a decent match the date will go better and deal killers are less bad. The problem is I don't match with anyone I like.

 

 

Truthfully I keep chasing this because I just want the experience, just one great experience will do. But I know it wont happen logically because why would anyone exceptional want me, a guy with no experience and awkward. Being kind, caring and thoughtful isn't enough, having in some respect a fairly glamorous lifestyle, that not enough either. Being tall and slim, not enough either. Being fairly intelligent, not enough either.

 

 

How do I mitigate everything that's bad?

 

 

The thing is I don't have issues talking to people if there is some decent common ground and I feel comfortable with them but even at things like meet up I just find the same sort of person, they cannot relate to me and while I can relate to them I am just not interested in them because there is no "wow" about them.

[Garcon1986]

Have you tried:

 

You don't have to drink if you don't want to.

 

Have you tried:

 

 

Have you tried:

 

You've identified the central problem. Many women's worlds are ruled by emotion and how you make them feel. Your awkwardness is easily sensed by socially experienced women, and they simply project it back it at you. Until you take a deep breath and explore this world, nothing will change. I interpret this as you asking for too many variables to align at the same time. I would take my chances with those women who aren't really "wow", and try to at least fake being interested. The idea here is to get some practice in on dating, and the nuances of social cues and awkwardness. The woman across from you might be a bit awkward too, but you might learn something really cool about her. I would strongly suggest you read about how Aspies have conquered dating - I'm not giving you a diagnosis, but some of their strategies may really strike a chord with you.

[ZA Dater]

Have you tried:

 

You don't have to drink if you don't want to.

 

Have you tried:

 

 

Have you tried:

 

You've identified the central problem. Many women's worlds are ruled by emotion and how you make them feel. Your awkwardness is easily sensed by socially experienced women, and they simply project it back it at you. Until you take a deep breath and explore this world, nothing will change. I interpret this as you asking for too many variables to align at the same time. I would take my chances with those women who aren't really "wow", and try to at least fake being interested. The idea here is to get some practice in on dating, and the nuances of social cues and awkwardness. The woman across from you might be a bit awkward too, but you might learn something really cool about her. I would strongly suggest you read about how Aspies have conquered dating - I'm not giving you a diagnosis, but some of their strategies may really strike a chord with you.

 

 

I simply cannot do that anymore. I have done it too many times in the past, in fact probably 90% of the people I have met fell into that category, I tried to be interested in them but there was nothing to be interested in and more so they didn't show any interest either, when you sit for 2 hours and someone asks you nothing about yourself....I take the hint.

 

 

They have to make me feel something too and mostly I just don't unless there is something different and unique about them.

 

 

On my day I can get things mostly right, put me in a situation where I feel comfortable and I can to some degree put on a much better representation of myself but that's never going to happen in a bar or a club. For example the club I run is primarily well to do, successful people, I am happy to do public speaking in front of these people, all learned and at the top of their game in their respective careers and I don't feel intimidated in the slightest.

 

 

I can speak with authority and confidence and carry myself with the same confidence. Put me in front of someone pretty and it just falls away completely, every bit of confidence is gone and I just feel awkward again.

 

 

Each time I try and be more outgoing, project being relaxed, try some humour but its useless when the person sitting in front me of doesn't interest me or has major deal killers. I resorted to this simply to try and practice whatever I thought I might accomplish.

[Garcon1986]

What you said about being less confident around pretty desirable women is true for many male professionals. The likely reason why ladies aren't that interested in you is either because you don't share common ground, or they unconsciously don't like something about your body language. The reason I suggest one of those clubs is that there is no social consequence (or little consequence) if you get it wrong, and the woman dislikes you. If you are less confident around pretty women then more social experiences with pretty women are in order.

 

The confidence around pretty women will be harder to achieve if you only insist on women that are accomplished, pretty, and have lots to talk about. It's like asking a high school physics student to operate an experiment on the Large Hadron Collider. There is so much subtle body language cues and ways to turn a conversation that you can learn from women that aren't stunners in the physical department. The kicker here is pretty women reject men with ease for the smallest things. Practice is what can allow you to break into this world. I will insist again that you need more experience because you said it yourself, pretty women shake your confidence and give you performance anxiety.

[ZA Dater]

What you said about being less confident around pretty desirable women is true for many male professionals. The likely reason why ladies aren't that interested in you is either because you don't share common ground, or they unconsciously don't like something about your body language. The reason I suggest one of those clubs is that there is no social consequence (or little consequence) if you get it wrong, and the woman dislikes you. If you are less confident around pretty women then more social experiences with pretty women are in order.

 

The confidence around pretty women will be harder to achieve if you only insist on women that are accomplished, pretty, and have lots to talk about. It's like asking a high school physics student to operate an experiment on the Large Hadron Collider. There is so much subtle body language cues and ways to turn a conversation that you can learn from women that aren't stunners in the physical department. The kicker here is pretty women reject men with ease for the smallest things. Practice is what can allow you to break into this world. I will insist again that you need more experience because you said it yourself, pretty women shake your confidence and give you performance anxiety.

 

 

 

What I do is when I go on dates is I try different thing, different humour, different approaches, different topic and different questions but it becomes disjointed because all I am doing is fishing to find out about her, see if there is anything I like. BUT the kicker always is I am only there really because I want to try and practice, just tired of more of the same. I can sit and drink hot chocolate with miss ABC but that doesn't help me when I need to go to an event. I suspect you may have had a similar problem based on what I read your occupation was in another thread.

 

 

Anything dancing related is a big no, no, I have the co ordination of an elephant so dancing isn't something I do.

 

 

If I was sitting with people I thought had potential it would be another matter but ostensibly what I end up doing is trying to learn something but you can line up 20 women and none will be the same as the next. Seemingly.

 

 

You are right, there is never any common ground at all, nothing. I basically have to live with this face so I try make the most out of any conversation with pretty people I can converse with, I have achieved nothing but I feel better.

 

 

Social experiences here usually mean a club or party. Where I compare poorly with virtually every other guy there so my game has always been to simply just be me and differentiate myself by the fact I don't conform with the rest, that's been my plan for years, I don't conform that way I tend to stand out at least but turns out people don't like non conformists quite as much as I thought....this method did actually work to an extent in my early 20's where I maybe got 2 nice people interested but that soon fell on its face when they realised I don't drink and party like seemingly everyone else.

 

 

Perhaps the biggest problem here is a have complete and total contempt for the manner in which some guys treat their ladies, the lack of kindness, the lack of consideration is frankly astonishing, there have been at least a dozen examples of this and its always me picking up the pieces but these guys are still fantastic...why I have no idea.

 

 

I have always been that guy who will always help and I like doing it because its the right thing to do and yes at least I have some sense of belonging.

 

 

I change my style, watch my body language to ensure my arms never cross, maintain good eye contact, remain attentive and take an interest in the person.

[Garcon1986]

I started out as an uncoordinated Asian geek, now I dance ballroom and Riverdance. I started out with no dancing rhythm. This is a venue where you can potentially get a physical encounter with a pretty lady that you are discounting because of fear of more awkwardness. There's nothing inherently unhealthy about dancing.

 

Have you read any pamphlets or websites on Aspies and dating yet? I sense a highly logical lad living in South Africa feeling alienated from women because they don't easily bond with you. You might gain something from their dating tactics.

[ZA Dater]

Well I went and signed up to another site and sure enough there are the same people from tinder. No surprise.

 

Let's see I don't have high hopes because again they aren't what I am interested in.

[Garcon1986]

There's always more meetups mijn zuid afrikaanse broer, South Africa is a big place.

[ZA Dater]

The way I see it there is another option, put dating aside and chase material wealth exclusively, hopefully accomplish that and then I'll have something to offer.

[Chilli]

l dunno , don't get it.

Sounds like you already have plenty to offer it just needs the right person.

Focusing on wealth as something to offer just takes you further away from who you are and closer to just buying a women , so to speak

 

Ls and the world too actually is fulla alone 40 and 50yr olds that focused on wealth and careers.

l think that'll only make your sitch worse as you'll wake up older and even more out of relationship mode.

 

Your still young don't waste it,

[ZA Dater]

l dunno , don't get it.

Sounds like you already have plenty to offer it just needs the right person.

Focusing on wealth as something to offer just takes you further away from who you are and closer to just buying a women , so to speak

 

Ls and the world too actually is fulla alone 40 and 50yr olds that focused on wealth and careers.

l think that'll only make your sitch worse as you'll wake up older and even more out of relationship mode.

 

Your still young don't waste it,

 

 

 

I believe that every date is bought to a lesser or greater degree. I know people who were wowed by expensive meals and places, even if the person sitting in front of them wasn't so fantastic at all.

[Chilli]

Yeah for sure , but how would you feel about that.

Me l'd only want her being wowed with just me.

l never flaunted it opposite in fact l'd never been interested in anyone interested in my wallet.

Anyway , up to you.

[elaine567]

Ls and the world too actually is fulla alone 40 and 50yr olds that focused on wealth and careers.

l think that'll only make your sitch worse as you'll wake up older and even more out of relationship mode.

 

Your still young don't waste it,

 

 

I agree.

The people at 40-50+ who are successful dating are often the same ones who when 20-30 were successful dating too.

Some with age and experience may be more successful if they apply themselves to being more attractive, but for most I feel little changes. If you are awkward, geeky, unsociable and undesirable to women at 20, you will be the same at 40, 50, 60... no matter how much money you acquire. Sure you can maybe attract the superficial gold diggers, but they will not want to be with you, not really...

Yes women like money, but not often at the expense of "some" attraction. Without attraction you are then dealing with some very hard bitten, tough, unempathetic women who will basically do anything for money.

 

Similarly if you have charm, wit and presence at 20, you will still be most likely attractive to women at 60 or beyond...

 

All very well wallowing and putting it all off till a later date, but there are no golden times ahead at 40+...You need to grasp the nettle now.

[ZA Dater]

I agree.

The people at 40-50+ who are successful dating are often the same ones who when 20-30 were successful dating too.

Some with age and experience may be more successful if they apply themselves to being more attractive, but for most I feel little changes. If you are awkward, geeky, unsociable and undesirable to women at 20, you will be the same at 40, 50, 60... no matter how much money you acquire. Sure you can maybe attract the superficial gold diggers, but they will not want to be with you, not really...

Yes women like money, but not often at the expense of "some" attraction. Without attraction you are then dealing with some very hard bitten, tough, unempathetic women who will basically do anything for money.

 

Similarly if you have charm, wit and presence at 20, you will still be most likely attractive to women at 60 or beyond...

 

All very well wallowing and putting it all off till a later date, but there are no golden times ahead at 40+...You need to grasp the nettle now.

 

 

 

Well seeing as I am not attractive I may as well try and make money to give me some sort of minute advantage and perhaps be able to have a better choice. Physically I think I am fairly attractive but hey nobody wants a quite guy, they might want a quiet guy if he can give them a great lifestyle.

 

 

You do realise your post makes virtually all "self improvement" advice redundant by virtue of the fact clearly you can never improve at all, if you are bad at it you are bad it.

 

 

I disagree money and "things" do attract people, they create talking points, allow for different experiences.

 

 

I think the bar for a well off guy is considerably lower than someone who isn't, the latter will have to work much harder to get that date and will still probably come off second best against the guy with cash. Unfortunately I have seen this many, many times.

 

 

The reality is the way I see it you either wallow in a lack of dating success or you try find fulfilling success elsewhere in whatever you try and do. I could fix my luck but I would need someone to actually want to constructively help me and that's pretty much impossible to find and NO I don't mean a snake oil dating coach I mean a lady who is actually prepared to go out with me and critique me in a meaningful useful way.

 

 

Basically teach me what everyone else learnt at 17.

[elaine567]

You do realise your post makes virtually all "self improvement" advice redundant by virtue of the fact clearly you can never improve at all, if you are bad at it you are bad it.

No you miss the point.

Of course people can improve, but relying on the myth that unsuccessful guys can suddenly become "babe magnets" in their 40-50s "just because" is just not true.

 

I have no idea why a snake oil salesman and a dating coach seem to mixed up in your mind, as a dating coach is exactly what you need.

[Garcon1986]

You have refused ZA Dater, a couple pieces of advice that you haven't tried enough to know you don't like it - like dancing. This is such an easy skill to learn but you discount it because it makes you feel uncomfortable. Remember I was once a nerdy Asian guy who was kicked out of my favorite dance club by pretty women enforcing the no creeps rule. Now I am quite happy being around women and the feelings are mutual, I just have to find my favourite date. I realize you have told us socializing with women makes you feel awkward - pretty women make you feel awkward even though you want them. You can socialize and do public speeches with men just fine, but attractive women intimidate you in some way. Until you try another approach, which is even necessary if you are settling with a gold digger, you can't win this game by opposing the advice of the community of LS. Sure lots of dating coaches are snake oil, but why don't you seek out one that suits your fancy? They can't all be unsuitable.