How to decide to propose or not yet?

[Artdeco]

I feel bad being a Debbie Downer here, but I am just not feeling it for this relationship.

 

Aside from the fact that the age difference is quite significant -- maybe not so much now as in the future -- I am not reading that this woman is all in. I am particularly concerned about this:

 

 

 

Combined with the breakups-that-aren't-actually-breakups, I get the sense that she is not serious about this relationship at some level.

 

I don't think it's a good idea to move nor get your vasectomy reversed without a lot more initiation from her. I see you being willing to make changes to make the relationship work. What is she doing?

 

Yeah - what’s the bold above all about?

Sounds like she’s eager for attention. Maybe she’s a little insecure and immature? Do you not give her enough attention, or do you think she’s provoking you with the fake break-ups? And if so, why? If nothing else - this right there would make me think twice.

 

[she has also told me several times that we won't work out long-term, she loves me, and she wants to split because we are perfect and if we stay together, we like each other so much that we will just get closer and closer, and it will be harder to split later.]

 

This is just plain weird. Split “because we are perfect?” Say what now? That really reminds me of Highschool a little bit.

[elaine567]

She has also told me several times that we won't work out long-term, she loves me, and she wants to split because we are perfect and if we stay together, we like each other so much that we will just get closer and closer, and it will be harder to split later.

This may be insecurity/immaturity ie testing to the limit to see how much you love her, or how much you will put up with maybe.

OR she actually believes this. It is a relationship that has no future as far as she is concerned, she knows this is not her destiny.

Her destiny looks a lot different, but this will do in the meantime.

Mr RightNow as opposed to Mr Right perhaps, a "filler" relationship.

OR it is something else...

Whatever it is, push/pull, on/off. is not IMO a good sign.

I know you have no kids and she wants a child, but does she have any other kids?

 

Seems you are in a hurry to lock her down in case you lose her.

7 months is a very short time, but it may be oK if you were properly seeing each other and it was all going swimmingly, but I do not have a good feeling about this.

It, IMO at least needs more time.

[Sunlight72]

As I was reading your original post, I couldn't help wondering why you haven't proposed if the relationship is going so well. I also wondered why you haven't moved to her city. But now your post above is telling. It seems you are not certain of her commitment. You know she probably loves you and many other things but you are not sure if she's really on the same page.

Yes, this is true about not being clear on her level of, or even ability or openness to, commitment. Also, I hadn't proposed earlier as I had been holding myself back to be more sure of her and us in some objective way, and also the ring is expensive and took time to order.

You have to do things in the right order:

 

1. One or both of you move so that you live close by. Or move in together.

 

2. After that, then consider proposing. By that time you should be sure of where she stands.

 

3. After being married, then consider having a child.

I have been thinking on this a lot since reading it several times now. I appreciate what you've lined up. I also am eager (what is the difference between eager and impatient? I'm not currently sure) to be closer in a significant way - either engaged or moved in together feels better to me than leaving it as it is. ... ... I'm not saying I'm right, which is why I started this thread.

To talk about surgery before you're even comfortable to go rent an apartment nearby is simply daydreaming! A fantasy. You sign a lease with the landlord - that's reality. And that's where you stopped yourself?

Thanks for the cold water. I don't like this, but it is important.

In general, having a child is the most serious decision. Many people think the marriage is the big decision and having a child is automatic. But you can get a divorce while you can't undo a baby. By comparison to bringing a life to this world, moving to a nearby city is not a huge decision. Because it is so doable, it is real.

Thanks for the thoughtful, direct reply. Still considering what you wrote.

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That's a bit of twist, you don't want to move in with her? Why is that?

I do want to move in with her. She doesn't yet want me to move in with her.

About 2 1/2 months ago we'd talked about me moving there, and she invited me to start moving there part-time, so I did move some clothes, a big stereo system and one of my motorcycles, etc. up to her place. After a few weeks she seemed to be feeling it was too real, and started saying that we should call it quits before we got too entangled (I'm paraphrasing). After I moved my things out, I guess her feelings changed right away. She walked back into the relationship, was more relaxed and in more frequent communication. I think it was just too soon.

 

I also think (in hindsight) that by me listening, and responding calmly to her concern, even to the point of showing her I would leave her home, city, her, and actually leave the relationship if that is what she wants, she realized I am mature and respectful enough that she doesn't need to be fearful of a difficult situation with me. I think that helped her feel safe, which is an issue for everyone.

------------------------------------

 

Seems to me it is already pretty one sided, why are you doing all the running to her place? Does she make any effort to come to yours?

Yes, I have thought of this too. She's only been once to my place. For a time that bothered me. I do work in her city 2 to 3 times a month, so logistically it is simple for me to see her. I have also told her I want her to know me in my home town, meet my friends, see me at my own pace, etc., and she has said in a kind way that yes, she should come visit me here.

 

She is very uncomfortable around cats (I know she has some long-time friends whom she will not visit specifically because they have cats, and she's broken up with one guy and refused to date another largely because they have cats). I have two cats. When I pressed her about not visiting she said it is due to my cats.

 

As to the future and my cats - I have found a good future home for each one in case I do move. I like the cats, and I also can be content in life without them if I know they are well cared for. They wouldn't need to go anywhere in the next couple years anyway, as I have a longterm roommate who loves cats and takes very good care of them when I'm away.

 

Anyway, this still leaves me seeing her at her place, her environment, her city, her friends and she doesn't visit me. Presently I'm not feeling bad about it, as we see each other often, but I would like to see some kind of stronger effort on her part to know my life more deeply. This is an unresolved area for me, but doesn't feel critical to me. Perhaps it should be a more serious topic...

Edited October 7, 2018 by Sunlight72

[elaine567]

I am always a great believer in "progression".

Relationships may be dead slow or slow or fast or very fast but when there is progression there is hope.

Here you progressed into moving your stuff up to her place, which was a rational move as you are there frequently BUT she was a lot happier when you removed it. That is not to my mind progression that is a backward step.

You were cramping her style, for what reason I am not sure but is this a woman you ask to marry? Personally if a guy I was frequently travelling to see asked me to remove my stuff from his accommodation, I would stop going to see him - other woman would be my first thought, too selfish would be my second.

She doesn't want to visit your place meet your friends, engage in your life, and she is territorial about having your stuff at hers, so that doesn't sound to me like a woman who wants to mesh your lives together in a marriage really does it?

[MidwestUSA]

I am always a great believer in "progression".

Relationships may be dead slow or slow or fast or very fast but when there is progression there is hope.

Here you progressed into moving your stuff up to her place, which was a rational move as you are there frequently BUT she was a lot happier when you removed it. That is not to my mind progression that is a backward step.

You were cramping her style, for what reason I am not sure but is this a woman you ask to marry? Personally if a guy I was frequently travelling to see asked me to remove my stuff from his accommodation, I would stop going to see him - other woman would be my first thought, too selfish would be my second.

She doesn't want to visit your place meet your friends, engage in your life, and she is territorial about having your stuff at hers, so that doesn't sound to me like a woman who wants to mesh your lives together in a marriage really does it?

 

 

Progression would involve her wanting to get to know cats better. Unless she's deathly allergic, she'd be willing to try if she loved the OP. But she's not willing to put up with them even for a visit? Hell no.

 

I'd never expect a man to give up his pets for me, and anyone who's expected me to part with mine has been given the swift boot. The relationship ends, and you're left without the best friends you parted with. Nope, and nope.

[Sunlight72]

I am always a great believer in "progression".

Relationships may be dead slow or slow or fast or very fast but when there is progression there is hope.

Here you progressed into moving your stuff up to her place, which was a rational move as you are there frequently BUT she was a lot happier when you removed it. That is not to my mind progression that is a backward step.

I hear what you are saying. I can also see that after 4 1/2 months it may have been too soon, as opposed to a rejection. Any thoughts on this elaine? I appreciate your input. Tnx

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Progression would involve her wanting to get to know cats better. Unless she's deathly allergic, she'd be willing to try if she loved the OP. But she's not willing to put up with them even for a visit? Hell no.

 

I'd never expect a man to give up his pets for me, and anyone who's expected me to part with mine has been given the swift boot. The relationship ends, and you're left without the best friends you parted with. Nope, and nope.

Mmm, well, I can see this is different for you and I. I like my cats, but if it's an either/or choice, over the next 40 years I would comfortably choose to build a marriage and/or family. I am glad to see them when I get home, but I don't miss them when I am gone.

[elaine567]

Progression would involve her wanting to get to know cats better. Unless she's deathly allergic, she'd be willing to try if she loved the OP. But she's not willing to put up with them even for a visit? Hell no.

 

I'd never expect a man to give up his pets for me, and anyone who's expected me to part with mine has been given the swift boot. The relationship ends, and you're left without the best friends you parted with. Nope, and nope.

 

Trouble with giving up pets for a relationship is that it is not a short term thing, it may mean giving up pets for life or at least for the length of the relationship, as the "intolerant" person will not change their stance.

[elaine567]

I hear what you are saying. I can also see that after 4 1/2 months it may have been too soon, as opposed to a rejection. Any thoughts on this elaine? I appreciate your input. Tnx

Try leaving some stuff with her again and gauge her reaction. Talk to her about it, tell her you are fed up lugging stuff around the country and living out of bags.

I'd forget the huge stereo though... unless she is into that retro stuff.

[BaileyB]

Progression would involve her wanting to get to know cats better. Unless she's deathly allergic, she'd be willing to try if she loved the OP. But she's not willing to put up with them even for a visit? Hell no.

 

I'd never expect a man to give up his pets for me, and anyone who's expected me to part with mine has been given the swift boot. The relationship ends, and you're left without the best friends you parted with. Nope, and nope.

 

I'm very allergic to cats. My boyfriend has a cat. He got the cat for his son when he divorced his exwife and his son loves the cat. My boyfriend jokes that if it was ever a decision between the cat and me, we know who would win for his son.

 

I visit the house and stay over often. I don't love the cat, although it is a very affectionate and loveable cat. But, I suffer through the symptoms because I love my guy, and I love his son. I would never ask him or his son to give up their pet. In fact, I go to their house to feed the cat and let him outside when they are out of town visiting family.

 

In my opinion, this relationship is VERY one sided. I would not be willing to have surgery, move, or give up my pets for a woman who is not willing to give an inch. Nope, and nope.

[BaileyB]

OP, has she met your family and friends? Does she do some stuff that you like but she may not like? Has she made any other attempts to compromise and show you that she is seriously committed to the relationship?

[introverted1]

 

In my opinion, this relationship is VERY one sided. I would not be willing to have surgery, move, or give up my pets for a woman who is not willing to give an inch. Nope, and nope.

 

Relationship happens at her house.

OP gave up his cats.

OP is willing to have surgery.

OP is changing position on children.

OP is willing to move to her city.

 

That's 5 concessions OP is making in order for this relationship to work.

 

Has she even made 1?

[MidwestUSA]

 

I visit the house and stay over often. I don't love the cat, although it is a very affectionate and loveable cat. But, I suffer through the symptoms because I love my guy, and I love his son. I would never ask him or his son to give up their pet. In fact, I go to their house to feed the cat and let him outside when they are out of town visiting family.

 

 

You wouldn't get my boot; you'd get a ring.

[Sunlight72]

Art_Critic - Thank you for your thoughtful post. I'm still absorbing it.

....However in your case neither of you have kids but she may still feel you are in different places since you had already have taken the avenue of no kids(yes, this is true).. maybe she feels you are both in different places in your life and her asking you to do the reversal isn't good enough, that you will still be on different pages(also true)

 

Time to talk it out, I wouldn't move to her without moving in with her, that commitment IMO should require a commitment from her too..(thank you for this ArtCritic. I agree, and I feel it is an appropriate amount of commitment to ask of her that if I move to her city, we live together. It may still be too soon, or she just may not want to get that close, which I will need to listen to and respect. I certainly feel to move myself to another city just to be in the neighborhood is way too one sided. Reading this ^^ written by you, instead of rolling around my own head, is really helpful as it looks reasonable and minimal as a litmus test that I can clearly read to determine if I should move there or not)

 

Maybe you are closer to being on the same page and she needs encouragement that you are okay with the reversal and that you are REALLY okay with having kids(I believe this is a 75% chance)...

 

Do you see how at odds having a vasectomy is with having the reversal in YOUR situation ? it means you will have changed a life long decision for her.(I do see that, and this is something she does not believe to be sincere. Which is sensible on her part.

 

I made that decision when I fully expected my entire life to be spent with a woman who should not be a mother. Once she left me for her girlfriend, I spent 3 years trying actively to reunite before yielding and granting a divorce. I really did not have a plan B when I married the first time. Now, 20 years later I am here.

 

It was not a straight path, and I feel strongly that with my girlfriend I could literally make a life and family that I wrote off 25 years ago. But, that also does not mean my girlfriend owes me anything, nor that she would necessarily see me as the best candidate for what she wants from life. I can accept it if that is her determination, but in the meantime I do not want her to pass over us because I am too cautious or reserved)

 

Good luck man, you deserve happiness and it seems you have found it..(Damn dude. I appreciate the sentiment deeply.)

now you have to figure out if the future has you both in it..(True indeed)

[Sunlight72]

Thanks Artdeco...

Yeah - what’s the bold above all about? Sounds like she’s eager for attention. Maybe she’s a little insecure and immature? (she does like attention, but she also gives a lot of attention to me, which I like)

 

or do you think she’s provoking you with the fake break-ups(Good question. I thought about this for a while before answering.

 

No, I don't think she is provoking me.

 

I think she is divided. She is not certain I am the one, but I am good enough that she doesn't want to walk away because I might be the one after all...

or I moved too fast and she's unsure what that means and doesn't want to get trapped in case I am not sincere, and also to be sure that I realize who she really is and I really want to be with the real woman she is.)

[Sunlight72]

Try leaving some stuff with her again and gauge her reaction. Talk to her about it, tell her you are fed up lugging stuff around the country and living out of bags.

I'd forget the huge stereo though... unless she is into that retro stuff.

Thank you, I think this sounds good too. And actually, she just asked me to bring the stereo back... I'm going there Wednesday, so I'll see what I can determine this trip. I'll be there 5 days.

[Chilli]

Trouble with giving up pets for a relationship is that it is not a short term thing, it may mean giving up pets for life or at least for the length of the relationship, as the "intolerant" person will not change their stance.

 

 

How bizarre pets should come up and cats at that.

My now ex sadly , in the end just couldn't bring herself to risk flying her two cats across the world to come and live with me here , which was always originally the plan from day one.

l get it yaknow , she loved those cats and they were the only ones there for her when no one else was through the hardest period in her life.

They basically saved her life.

She had her issues and it was always a touch rocky but it was always too love , from the minute we met, but everytime we had a fight which were often about how to overcome this, it was always the cats that came out in the end.

 

l can understand it and what they mean to her, but what do you do , yaknow.

lf they were my cats l'd find them a nice home cry for awhile and go be with my love.

But l couldn't ask her to do that .

 

l know , crazy.

[Chilli]

She was a bit of a pain in the ass anyway never know , maybe the cats saved me too