A messed up MM’s story

[pepperbird]

Can I be blananty honest. You can’t do anything to help your wife bc you’re in absolutely no place to do so.. You’re still lying to yourself which means you’ll still be lying to her. You say OWneas your “best friend” well if you treat a best friend by lying & only worries to cover your own butt...how do you treat people you don’t like? In another post you say “if someone tells you’re in for a whole world of hurt”...which means scream you only care that it came out.

 

This is how I see It (going by what “you’ve” written) you knew OW was unstable & took advantage of it, then it blew up in your face & now you’re only worried about damage control. That’s not love in any shape or form all the way around. You love yourself & statuesque & hate having to deal with your consequences.

 

I had an affair & I’m the one that told my H...bc I wanted out of my marriage at that point & the only reason I had an A was bc I used It as an easy exit. Hated my H & thought he’d leave. I never Once lied to OM, I told him I couldn’t leave for him, that I wanted To leave bc I was unhappy in my marriage & no matter what happened I’d need time to myself. My H begged me to give him a try to fix things & I figured I owed it to him to give it one last chance & things got better. I’ll always love the OM in a certain way but I showed It by being honest.

 

I’m happy I told Bc I couLent stand not ever wanted to live that way...but that’s how my H knew & choose to still be with me. I’ve never been that way & never want to be again. As I read What you’re writing, it’s all surrounded by “you pretty much got caught” & you have to deal with it. That’s not guilt, it’s not understanding how low you are...until you actually understand how low as a human you hit, why even be with your wife...she deserves someone that at least truly is regretful for hurting her...not a guy that just wants to hold bc he doesn’t want to deal with backlash of a divorce.

 

OW did make her own choices but her choices have nothing to do with you at this point...you made the choice to take advantage of a weak woman, only for fun. That’s one heck of a character flaw....I hope for your wife’s sake she finds some self respect & sees who you really are.

 

 

This woman is hardly "vulnerable". She is using her threats of suicide to get her own way and to try and inflict as much and guilt as she possibly can. I highly doubt she will harm herself in any way shape or form. She's just using psychological blackmail to try and get her own way.

 

She is hardly being taken advantage of, nor is she vulnerable.

[Whoknew30]

This woman is hardly "vulnerable". She is using her threats of suicide to get her own way and to try and inflict as much and guilt as she possibly can. I highly doubt she will harm herself in any way shape or form. She's just using psychological blackmail to try and get her own way.

 

She is hardly being taken advantage of, nor is she vulnerable.

 

Anyone that says they’re going to kill themselves due to a breakup of any kind

Is not right I’m the head to begin with...people that use psychological blackmail are statistically people with massive emotional issues. Now, does that defend their behavior, no but it’s like the drug dealer that preys on the weak drug addict. Yes the addict is at fault for doing the drugs but the dealer is worse for taking advantage of weak people...same goes for a mentally stable person that can see someone isn’t mentally stable & continues at it.

[somanymistakes]

This woman is hardly "vulnerable". She is using her threats of suicide to get her own way and to try and inflict as much and guilt as she possibly can. I highly doubt she will harm herself in any way shape or form. She's just using psychological blackmail to try and get her own way.

 

She is hardly being taken advantage of, nor is she vulnerable.

 

I think they can both be true, it can be a manipulative threat but that doesn't mean she isn't vulnerable and hurt in her own way.

[Petofadiva]

Thanks whoknew pepperbird and Somanymistakes for your perspectives.

 

I think there are a few broad topics that got touched.

 

1. Lies and selfishness

Anyone having an affair is an embodiment of Selfishness and lies. So am I. But if I were to look back I definitely lied to my wife in the course of my affair. With regards to the OW, we both knew we were married and and never did we speak about getting together. We always spoke about pulling back. We both thought we genuinely loved each other and if we had met earlier, things could have been different. I definitely should have thought this through to clarity before.

 

2. Manipulation and preying on a weakness

We were best friends for 6 years before this happened. Inexplicably we kept getting closer and closer and crossed the line. For this to be manipulation it has to be pre meditated and planned. I certainly don’t think it’s the case. Also all of this extreme behavior only manifested after she wanted in and I wanted out. I only saw her nice side till then. Definitely she was in immense pain and maybe her reaction to pain was to get aggressive. There was no way for me to know this side and pre plan an affair. Even after months of this I still don’t feel anger for her. Just guilt and sadness at leading her down this road. Whatever happened later is a consequence of the affair and the subsequent break up.

 

3. Disclosure methods

This is also an interesting thought that I grappled for months. How should an affair be disclosed . In case you are not caught Should it even be disclosed or hidden?

 

If you choose to disclose, are you doing it to transfer your pain and guilt to your partner so you feel good about yourself? Is it to satiate the need to start being honest and start to like yourself again? Is it so that the final decision of which road to take is made for you versus you having to choose?

 

If you choose to hide it, are you doing it to shy away from the consequences? Are you carrying it to the grave to protect your partner from more pain? Are you doing it to get away Scott free and start another affair soon?

 

Over the last few months and seeing the impact of this break up had on my ow and now seeing the pain in my wife, there is no way in hell I am doing this again. There certainly was a fear of the consequences.

When we did get caught through the ow’s disclosure, what helped my wife heal was hearing from the Ow on how I had been trying to end this for months. She saw the whole event live.

 

 

4. Pain involved

 

If you read my message to aloha I mentioned not just her pain but the pain of a whole lot of innocent people.

 

So what’s driving me towards depression now:

A. Seeing the pain of my wife while she deals with my betrayal.

B. Seeing the pain of my ex best friend as her life unravels due to my actions.

C. Seeing the pain of my friend’s family who are going through a break up for which I was a catalyst.

 

Sometimes the pain of someone you love hurts you much more than the pain that you go through yourself. I actually started feeling a little better ever since It was disclosed to my wife. Conscience is a heavy burden to bear.

 

I certainly loved both women in my life. I should never have but I did. I had to choose one and let one go. I have a long road to walk on the path chosen. I wistfully wish the break up path was not littered with the vitriol it eventually ended up with.

[BluesPower]

@Petofadiva, brother would you just stop it...

 

You know, you may want to remember that people like me have been on both sides of this stuff.

 

So, would you please stop telling us how you loved the other woman, and if we could have met earlier it would have been different.

 

It is all crap, and you need to admit it.

 

You came her confessing how bad you feel about your affair, and how you are trying to reconcile and how to help your wife that you "Love" heal from your betrayal.

 

Let me tell you why you had and affair, you were bored with having sex with your wife, you bored with your marriage. That's it, there was not deep abiding love with the OW, hell I loved a lot of my OW, just not that much.

 

No brother, you had a hot woman that was more interesting than your wife, and she wanted to bang your brains out, so you went ahead with it.

 

You did it because you thought you would not get caught, you could have two women that "Loved" and wanted to have sex with you.

 

That is all, that is the sum total of it. I frankly, when I was like that, actually was not satisfied with having 2 women loving me, I got up to 4 at one time. So really you are a light weight.

 

Look, Do you want to have a reconciled happy fulfilling marriage with your wife? If you don't then divorce her.

 

If you do, the stop all of this drivel about how in love you were. You wanted to have sex with a different woman, you loved being "loved" in a hot dirty sexual affair.

 

If you want this to work, please brother, get real. Clear your head and get real or get out of your marriage and stop hurting your wife, she at least does not deserve what you have caused...

[Aloha123]

Thanks whoknew pepperbird and

If you read my message to aloha I mentioned not just her pain but the pain of a whole lot of innocent people.

 

.

 

Just so you know, this point really hit home with me and made me understand the potential devastation other than just from my own selfish perspective.

[Aloha123]

@Petofadiva, brother would you just stop it...

 

You know, you may want to remember that people like me have been on both sides of this stuff.

 

So, would you please stop telling us how you loved the other woman, and if we could have met earlier it would have been different.

 

It is all crap, and you need to admit it.

 

You came her confessing how bad you feel about your affair, and how you are trying to reconcile and how to help your wife that you "Love" heal from your betrayal.

 

Let me tell you why you had and affair, you were bored with having sex with your wife, you bored with your marriage. That's it, there was not deep abiding love with the OW, hell I loved a lot of my OW, just not that much.

 

No brother, you had a hot woman that was more interesting than your wife, and she wanted to bang your brains out, so you went ahead with it.

 

You did it because you thought you would not get caught, you could have two women that "Loved" and wanted to have sex with you.

 

That is all, that is the sum total of it. I frankly, when I was like that, actually was not satisfied with having 2 women loving me, I got up to 4 at one time. So really you are a light weight.

 

Look, Do you want to have a reconciled happy fulfilling marriage with your wife? If you don't then divorce her.

 

If you do, the stop all of this drivel about how in love you were. You wanted to have sex with a different woman, you loved being "loved" in a hot dirty sexual affair.

 

If you want this to work, please brother, get real. Clear your head and get real or get out of your marriage and stop hurting your wife, she at least does not deserve what you have caused...

 

I really appreciate your bluntness. it is helping to snap me out of the denial and delusional thinking i have been engaged in for the past year with regard to my own MM's motives.

[Poppy47]

I really appreciate your bluntness. it is helping to snap me out of the denial and delusional thinking i have been engaged in for the past year with regard to my own MM's motives.

 

Blues is good. He tell is like it is because I reckon he's done it all.

 

Poppy

[bathtub-row]

If you think you can’t rebuild trust in your marriage, then you can’t. The truth is, you can. Marriage is a very long business. It will have many ups and downs. You may be down now but you can get it back. Just by staying with your wife, year after year, you show her you’re there for good. You have to let time do the work it’s best at — heal.

 

Yes, you could’ve done better but the OW is not only answerable for her own actions, but she has made things worse by guilting and blaming you. She took the vows with her husband, not you. And vice versa. Her marriage broke because it was breakable. Yours has a couple of broken wings but the wings can heal. It’s up to you. But if you continue to carry this weight of the OW, she’ll continue to haunt your marriage. I understand you need to heal and grieve - all that. But then let it go and get back to your life.

[FMW]

Petofadiva, it seems that maybe the biggest hangup for you with OW is because you were friends for years before you started the affair and had a real connection in that way. Your love for her didn't come from having sex with her for a several months/a year, but from those previous years of shared experiences. That's not the case with most of those posting here, so keep that in mind while sorting through the advice.

 

Whatever the love you felt/feel for OW, your wife is clearly your priority and your love for her and with her is deeper. She's giving you the chance to try and rebuild your relationship, not all wives would. Don't blow it by staying stuck in this confusion. This is the price for the affair. It could have been much worse, as I said, your wife could have just walked away.

[bathtub-row]

Petofadiva, it seems that maybe the biggest hangup for you with OW is because you were friends for years before you started the affair and had a real connection in that way. Your love for her didn't come from having sex with her for a several months/a year, but from those previous years of shared experiences. That's not the case with most of those posting here, so keep that in mind while sorting through the advice.

 

Whatever the love you felt/feel for OW, your wife is clearly your priority and your love for her and with her is deeper. She's giving you the chance to try and rebuild your relationship, not all wives would. Don't blow it by staying stuck in this confusion. This is the price for the affair. It could have been much worse, as I said, your wife could have just walked away.

 

From what I’ve seen, the majority of affairs are highly emotional and not strictly about the sex. They’re typically deeply formed friendships, which make them extra-hard to disconnect from. What happened with these two is actually very common. The other scenario where it’s all about screwing around for the sheer fun of it is actually the most uncommon one.

[BluesPower]

From what I’ve seen, the majority of affairs are highly emotional and not strictly about the sex. They’re typically deeply formed friendships, which make them extra-hard to disconnect from. What happened with these two is actually very common. The other scenario where it’s all about screwing around for the sheer fun of it is actually the most uncommon one.

 

Actually... for women, it is the way that you describe, most of the time.

 

For men, even OP here, it is about sex. I know all the MW, OW want to think differently, and maybe a few a very few are correct.

 

But most, I am sorry men, but men can be pigs, and most of the affairs for men are about extra sex or the ego trip of having two women...

 

And please, all of you sensitive guys that want to get up in arms about this... Spare me... please.

[FMW]

I think most of us women, regardless of whether we're an OW or not, should pay attention to what Blues is saying, whether we accept it or not.

 

I've been involved in an A for over 3 years now. We're spending most of day together today - there may or may not be sex, and I certainly want to believe him when he says he loves me. But the bottom line is that I'm single now and he chooses to stay married. I can explain it away any way I want to, but that's the bottom line. His marriage is more important than "we" are to him.

 

I think when we get too tied up in believing we're fated to be together and that he will eventually leave his wife, that's when we get stuck for years waiting and being miserable. Or going off the deep end like Petofadiva's OW. I chose not to cut MM out of my life because I do love him, I do believe he sees me as a real friend. But I'm not waiting around for him to choose me and certainly won't be "disclosing" or blowing anything up.

[Overtaxed]

Actually... for women, it is the way that you describe, most of the time.

 

For men, even OP here, it is about sex. I know all the MW, OW want to think differently, and maybe a few a very few are correct.

 

But most, I am sorry men, but men can be pigs, and most of the affairs for men are about extra sex or the ego trip of having two women...

 

And please, all of you sensitive guys that want to get up in arms about this... Spare me... please.

 

Well, I'll chime in only because I just want to reinforce what Blues and a few others have said. But let me give you a slightly different angle on it. Look at the A's you see here, look at what actually happens during the A. Is it "love"? Are their long walks on the beach? Are there actions to leave the wife (real actions, divorce papers, moving out, etc)? Or is it just a complete f**kfest? Does the A, after it's established (all the lovey/wonderful things said) and a PA, what does it look like? Most A's turn into nothing more than an unpaid prostitute. It's planning when to meet up; having sex as much as physically possible, then going home to the wife.

 

I won't even go as far as saying "men are pigs". Most men really enjoy sex, and know that an A is a great way to get more sex without losing their marriage. So, they take a logical approach; I want sex, women in an A offer up sex, so I'll have an A. The place it becomes "pigish" is when the man starts with the "love of my life" and "soulmates" crap that's usually part and parcel of an A. But I honestly think that a lot of men, myself included, believed that women just "expected us to say it". Like, we all knew everyone was lying, it was all a dance. You (women) need to hear "I love you and your so special" so I say it. Just like I (man) "I can't wait to sleep with you again" even when the truth is that you'd much rather I take you out to dinner and treat you as something other than a sex toy.

 

A's, in general, are good at one thing. More sex. They absolutely suck at creating a real relationship, they are awful at "love and respect" (and if you think yours is good, wait until D-day), they are terrible at creating a safe and comfortable environment for both people.. But they excel at having a whole lot of sex. Men (or women) who enter into an A for more sex, while they are morally compromised, are at least going to get what they came for. Women (or men) who enter into an A looking for love are about as likely to find it as they are to find bluefin tuna sushi on the menu at McDonalds. You go to a high end sushi restaurant if you want a chance at bluefin tuna, and you get married or date seriously if you want a chance of someone to love and respect you as a person. You go to McDonalds when you want you dinner served up in a bag and within 60 seconds of ordering, and you have an A when you want to have sex in the back of a car and be 2nd person to have sex with someone that day.

 

But getting annoyed they didn't get Bluefin tuna at MCD or that your meal took 60 minutes to come to the table at a fine dining establishment? It makes no sense. A's are great for "drive thru" sex. That's what they are for. Acting like most men are there looking for love is a joke. Some men might mistake MCD for the Capital Grille but almost all of them don't. They know this is "drive thru" for sex and orgasms. Frankly, and I sincerely believe this, once the A fog wears off, and the partner not out for sex looks back on the A, in many cases, what they did (their actions) during the A are a hell of a lot closer to "unpaid prostitute" than they are to "wife" or even "girlfriend".

 

I have friends who've had an A. While I never approved of it, I never really condoned it either (my mistake). I thought they were pigs for doing it, but I understood their motivation, and their stories of sex were pretty amazing (if I'm frank, it made me jealous; at the time, I thought they might be lying, now I realize after my W's A, those stories, if anything, were tame compared to some here). But you know what I'd tell a man (before this happened) who came to me and said "I'm having an A, and I love her"? The same thing I'd tell my 40 year old friend who said "I met this amazing girl, she's a stripper and hot as h*ll.. I'm going to marry her". I'd say "Are you a f**king idiot??". You don't marry strippers and you don't fall in love with APs. That's "the line" for a lot of men, men I know (including myself before the A) generally will cosign an A. We don't judge the same way that a lot of women do, because we know it's "just for fun". But a man telling me he fell for the AP? Dude, I know the statistics. It's like telling me your new investment idea is buying lotto tickets. It wouldn't be "good for you" it would be "your an idiot".

Edited June 8, 2018 by Overtaxed

[Aloha123]

Well, I'll chime in only because I just want to reinforce what Blues and a few others have said. But let me give you a slightly different angle on it. Look at the A's you see here, look at what actually happens during the A. Is it "love"? Are their long walks on the beach? Are there actions to leave the wife (real actions, divorce papers, moving out, etc)? Or is it just a complete f**kfest? Does the A, after it's established (all the lovey/wonderful things said) and a PA, what does it look like? Most A's turn into nothing more than an unpaid prostitute. It's planning when to meet up; having sex as much as physically possible, then going home to the wife.

 

I won't even go as far as saying "men are pigs". Most men really enjoy sex, and know that an A is a great way to get more sex without losing their marriage. So, they take a logical approach; I want sex, women in an A offer up sex, so I'll have an A. The place it becomes "pigish" is when the man starts with the "love of my life" and "soulmates" crap that's usually part and parcel of an A. But I honestly think that a lot of men, myself included, believed that women just "expected us to say it". Like, we all knew everyone was lying, it was all a dance. You (women) need to hear "I love you and your so special" so I say it. Just like I (man) "I can't wait to sleep with you again" even when the truth is that you'd much rather I take you out to dinner and treat you as something other than a sex toy.

 

A's, in general, are good at one thing. More sex. They absolutely suck at creating a real relationship, they are awful at "love and respect" (and if you think yours is good, wait until D-day), they are terrible at creating a safe and comfortable environment for both people.. But they excel at having a whole lot of sex. Men (or women) who enter into an A for more sex, while they are morally compromised, are at least going to get what they came for. Women (or men) who enter into an A looking for love are about as likely to find it as they are to find bluefin tuna sushi on the menu at McDonalds. You go to a high end sushi restaurant if you want a chance at bluefin tuna, and you get married or date seriously if you want a chance of someone to love and respect you as a person. You go to McDonalds when you want you dinner served up in a bag and within 60 seconds of ordering, and you have an A when you want to have sex in the back of a car and be 2nd person to have sex with someone that day.

 

But getting annoyed they didn't get Bluefin tuna at MCD or that your meal took 60 minutes to come to the table at a fine dining establishment? It makes no sense. A's are great for "drive thru" sex. That's what they are for. Acting like most men are there looking for love is a joke. Some men might mistake MCD for the Capital Grille but almost all of them don't. They know this is "drive thru" for sex and orgasms. Frankly, and I sincerely believe this, once the A fog wears off, and the partner not out for sex looks back on the A, in many cases, what they did (their actions) during the A are a hell of a lot closer to "unpaid prostitute" than they are to "wife" or even "girlfriend".

 

I have friends who've had an A. While I never approved of it, I never really condoned it either (my mistake). I thought they were pigs for doing it, but I understood their motivation, and their stories of sex were pretty amazing (if I'm frank, it made me jealous; at the time, I thought they might be lying, now I realize after my W's A, those stories, if anything, were tame compared to some here). But you know what I'd tell a man (before this happened) who came to me and said "I'm having an A, and I love her"? The same thing I'd tell my 40 year old friend who said "I met this amazing girl, she's a stripper and hot as h*ll.. I'm going to marry her". I'd say "Are you a f**king idiot??". You don't marry strippers and you don't fall in love with APs. That's "the line" for a lot of men, men I know (including myself before the A) generally will cosign an A. We don't judge the same way that a lot of women do, because we know it's "just for fun". But a man telling me he fell for the AP? Dude, I know the statistics. It's like telling me your new investment idea is buying lotto tickets. It wouldn't be "good for you" it would be "your an idiot".

 

Um, this is brilliant, and painfully accurate.

[BluesPower]

If it is possible...

 

I would say that @Overtaxed is actually more cynical than I am.

 

And OT I want to thank you for taking that moniker from me.

 

Cannot disagree with anything you said.

 

Now, with all the things I have done, which I don't do anymore or for a while.

 

I did love some of those women. I have loved a lot of women.

 

But none more than my newest current GF. I think I was starting to settle down before I met her, but this one is the best ever.

 

OT how is your marriage going, well I hope?

[BourneWicked]

I'm going to lean towards Bathtub Row's assessment and say that many affairs aren't just about sex for the man. Mine involved very little though there was flirtation, dirty talk, etc. But actual sex was a minimum due to distance. A friend of mine's husband was in a very long EA, got what he wanted physically at home, but apparently could only share his feelings

 

I think men and women are diverse in their needs, and that should be recognized. I had a good long laugh at a website that said "men seek affairs because they need sex weekly if not daily, while women have the urge rarely, once if possibly twice a month." My sex drive does not match my SO's but I like it two or three times a week thanks (just not the 7+ times weekly my SO likes).

 

Even Petofadiva's story talks about friendship and feelings of security, not just sex. But, agree that most of the time women do fall more on the side of love/a future, and men fall more on the side of some strange/sex.

 

Petofadiva, I'm sorry for what you are going through. I appreciate the office stories because they hit home with me. Your story could be the MM in my situation, except the bit about the OW threatening suicide and telling your wife. So I appreciate the bleak warning about whiat can happen if you don't stop.

 

I quit before it got worse. I asked him to stop emailing me from his work email and made it clear that we cannot talk about non work, and I will not tolerate him crossing boundaries with me. He's wanted us to be 'friends' but I know I'm not capable at this point. So it's silence from me and sadness from him. It's been really, really awful.

 

Thank you for reminding me how awful it really could be.

 

I feel sympathy for the OW only because I've been there, desperately in love with someone that I can't have. However, the difference was, when I realized there was no future (beyond a rollercoaster ride of pleasure and pain), I stepped back and got out. And it really hurt to recognize that I wasn't enough to change things. It hurts to lose a friend too. In my instance, I think it was really our childhood traumas that brought us together; I think we were able to replay perfectly our childhood hurts on each other. For me, this guy was unavailable and distant (like my father), but kept coming back even when I rejected him (unlike my father). In some small ways, repeating this as an adult has helped me heal from my childhood hurts. It doesn't matter if MM wants me, doesn't want me, stays with his wife, bangs someone else at work. I am worth caring about, and I don't need his approval or attention for that to be a constant truth.

 

So anyway, if your OW experienced some sort of trauma when she was younger, this may be where the suicidal ideation came in. As stated by others, although a horrible thing, not your problem and absolutely agree she needs to get some help. These days, I listen to piles of youtube videos about overcoming jealousy, narcissism (lots of that at my workplace), forgetting someone, self-improvement. I also listen to meditation videos sometimes before I sleep. Life isn't perfect, but it's better.

 

Sorry for the ramble. Hope things improve for you. And yeah, I learned the hard way too. Not anything I'll be repeating this lifetime.

[BourneWicked]

 

But getting annoyed they didn't get Bluefin tuna at MCD or that your meal took 60 minutes to come to the table at a fine dining establishment? It makes no sense. A's are great for "drive thru" sex. That's what they are for. Acting like most men are there looking for love is a joke. Some men might mistake MCD for the Capital Grille but almost all of them don't. They know this is "drive thru" for sex and orgasms. Frankly, and I sincerely believe this, once the A fog wears off, and the partner not out for sex looks back on the A, in many cases, what they did (their actions) during the A are a hell of a lot closer to "unpaid prostitute" than they are to "wife" or even "girlfriend".

 

But you know what I'd tell a man (before this happened) who came to me and said "I'm having an A, and I love her"? The same thing I'd tell my 40 year old friend who said "I met this amazing girl, she's a stripper and hot as h*ll.. I'm going to marry her". I'd say "Are you a f**king idiot??". You don't marry strippers and you don't fall in love with APs. That's "the line" for a lot of men, men I know (including myself before the A) generally will cosign an A. We don't judge the same way that a lot of women do, because we know it's "just for fun". But a man telling me he fell for the AP? Dude, I know the statistics. It's like telling me your new investment idea is buying lotto tickets. It wouldn't be "good for you" it would be "your an idiot".

 

 

Love this, this rings super true to me. This line of thinking is what finally helped me move on. Like I generally did really care about this guy, I could see it working out someday. Blah, blah, blah. But when he disappeared for a week, then came back full force after a nice family vacation in the bahamas or whereTF ever, and this happened after weekends too, I finally started to realize I was like an unpaid prostitute. Or maybe an unpaid phone sex operator. Or a vibrating ego massager, to be pulled back out of the drawer when he sat down at his work desk again.

 

It didn't feel that bad at first because, in my primary relationship where I don't get the physical affection I need (believe me, I've asked. And asked. And asked. The sex is always there, but there's no such thing as a hug or a kiss outside of sex) the words of affection, and even the mention of the desire for hugs or kisses or cuddling was enough to keep me on the line. Because I think this guy is legit an affectionate, cuddly kind of guy. Or I'm just a sucker. But whatever it was, for a while it was enough. Until it just wasn't anymore.

[Whoknew30]

Actually... for women, it is the way that you describe, most of the time.

 

For men, even OP here, it is about sex. I know all the MW, OW want to think differently, and maybe a few a very few are correct.

 

But most, I am sorry men, but men can be pigs, and most of the affairs for men are about extra sex or the ego trip of having two women...

 

And please, all of you sensitive guys that want to get up in arms about this... Spare me... please.

 

Honestly, most men that behave how your describing are jaded, cowardess & just plainly don’t know how to love...themselves, their wife & or anyone. If a any person be man or woman that basis decision on ego...is someone that is extremely insecure inside & doesn’t feel like they’re enough inside or they wouldn’t behave that way. Men can be damaged too, they just many times show it through sex. Remember for men & women...everything is about sex but sex.

 

The difference is women usually can admit after awhile they have issues...men try to pretend they don’t & many times that comes out in destructive behavior & have sex with multiple women just to make one’s ego feel better...is descuctive.

 

OP...you have deeper issues than just wanting to have sex with another woman. Be smarter than most men & actually try to figure out what’s off in you vs being like most men that cheat & want to make themselves believe “it’s what men do”. I come from not just a culture where men cheating is ok but a family of men in that culture & I’ll be the first to say it’s based on many of those men not feeling like enough on other aspects of their life. Good luck

[Whoknew30]

If it is possible...

 

I would say that @Overtaxed is actually more cynical than I am.

 

And OT I want to thank you for taking that moniker from me.

 

Cannot disagree with anything you said.

 

Now, with all the things I have done, which I don't do anymore or for a while.

 

I did love some of those women. I have loved a lot of women.

 

But none more than my newest current GF. I think I was starting to settle down before I met her, but this one is the best ever.

 

OT how is your marriage going, well I hope?

 

Blue, i have to ask you this & overtaxed...have either of you ever seen a man cry over an AP? Cry over him being in completely distress? When there’s been no DDay? Blue, have you ever been distressed over any of the women you slept with?

 

Bc I’m my life I’ve seen A LOT of men cry over that kind of distress & be not even close to being caught...& I’m talking about “men’s men” sports players, attorneys, construction guys...men that would talk to men as yourselves & explain everything the way you both do...& then an hour later be in front of someone like me & breakdown.

 

Have you ever thought perception is someone’s reality. Do you think men really go to other men & open up about their real feelings? With both of your logics do you really think that other manly men would actually be 100% vulnerable with this kind of logic being stated? Do you really tell other men exactly your inner feelings? If you can’t tell another man that you don’t agree with their A, how would one think any other man would be so open with you?

 

Lucky bc I'm a woman that grew up & around with so many men...I get To see a whole other side. I’m the safe zone for a lot of men in my life & still am. The men that have opened up to me (related & not) would never in a million years tell other men what they’ve told me. So let’s be also honest about that. Men don’t show vulnerability in front of other men...majority just don’t!

 

It goes back to that “men don’t cry” “men aren’t sissies”...men can be way more sensitive than women...they just show it differently & have been trained by society not to be verbal about it. Look up statistics...behavior is always deeper than just what one sees.

[Overtaxed]

Blue, i have to ask you this & overtaxed...have either of you ever seen a man cry over an AP? Cry over him being in completely distress? When there’s been no DDay? Blue, have you ever been distressed over any of the women you slept with?

 

Bc I’m my life I’ve seen A LOT of men cry over that kind of distress & be not even close to being caught...& I’m talking about “men’s men” sports players, attorneys, construction guys...men that would talk to men as yourselves & explain everything the way you both do...& then an hour later be in front of someone like me & breakdown.

 

Have you ever thought perception is someone’s reality. Do you think men really go to other men & open up about their real feelings? With both of your logics do you really think that other manly men would actually be 100% vulnerable with this kind of logic being stated? Do you really tell other men exactly your inner feelings? If you can’t tell another man that you don’t agree with their A, how would one think any other man would be so open with you?

 

Lucky bc I'm a woman that grew up & around with so many men...I get To see a whole other side. I’m the safe zone for a lot of men in my life & still am. The men that have opened up to me (related & not) would never in a million years tell other men what they’ve told me. So let’s be also honest about that. Men don’t show vulnerability in front of other men...majority just don’t!

 

It goes back to that “men don’t cry” “men aren’t sissies”...men can be way more sensitive than women...they just show it differently & have been trained by society not to be verbal about it. Look up statistics...behavior is always deeper than just what one sees.

 

No, I've never seen a man cry over an AP. I've seen a lot of men boast about their AP though and a handful of men who openly make fun of their APs. And a few men who don't say much at all about it unless they're really drunk, then they fall into one of the first two categories.

 

You asked Blues, but I'll answer, no, I've never been distressed over a woman I've slept with, other than to think to myself "wow, that was dumb". Usually when the woman wasn't attractive to me, or I was really drunk and slept with someone without protection. But "distressed" about sleeping with someone? No, that's never happened to me. Well, I should clarify, it never happened to me before I started reading this site. Now I can clearly see that what I was doing was hurtful and harmful to those women; I thought they knew "the game" and were playing it with me, I say nice things/lie/game you, you take off your clothes, we have sex, and sex is what both of us really wanted. The words were just "foreplay". I've come to see that's not at all the case, and a lot of those women who I thought were just listening to me "sing" were in fact, listening to the words and thinking they were true. It was a real eye opener, and yes, now I do feel really bad about it. I feel bad about sex in general to be honest.

 

I think your assessment of men is correct, and no, no man has ever cried in front of me about an AP; if they did, I'd probably have them committed. It's just not what men do. And yes, I'm aware that men act differently around women, and "share more" with them. However, I do wonder; is that sharing "real"? I did that too when I was with women, or trying to relate to a woman, I'd think "what am I feeling right now" and share it, because I know women like that. But, if I'm honest, I had to dig for it, try to make myself feel something and then describe it, because my normal thoughts just aren't about feelings at all. Sure, I have them, but I just don't listen to them or give them much space in my head. The "real me" is much more the me I am with men than women; talking about things that really matter to me; which, to be frank, aren't my feelings. My feelings are ephemeral, they will change by the time I finish this message, they just don't matter very much. So I'd much rather (and do, with men) spend my time talking about things that are more permanent. I share something personal here, as an illustration of this, but my father recently passed away. I've talked to a ton of people about it, how I wish he'd had more time, how I wish I was able to perform better at work, how I wish he'd been able to do some things before he passed. But, my feelings? I've shared them with nobody, and I probably won't; because, in time, they will pass. But if I had a woman in my life I really trusted completely, I might share them, but only to make her feel good, like she was getting parts of me that she wanted, not because I needed to share them, or because it was something that was "more real" than the rest of it. Even his death, my feelings have been all over the place, the things I need to do now, and the things I needed to do during his illness, those were real, and those needed tending to. If I didn't do them, tomorrow, I'd still have to do exactly the same thing. But the feelings change by the minute; if I shared them right now, I could come back in 10 mins and share something totally different. There's no consistency and, because of that, "sharing" them is about as useful as writing a book in disappearing ink. By the time you author the last page, the first is already blank.

 

I feel like I'm a very deep person. I think about things and mull them over and over in my mind. I can discuss things that interest me (which is a long list) for days on end. I have a lot internal dialog that runs through my head. But my feelings, perhaps as you said, because of society, or because of biology, or something else, they just don't impact me the way that facts and action does. I do feel it, and I know they are there, but they just don't seem to be the same as what many women feel. And most of the men I know, they are like that, at least on the surface. And since it's similar to me, I have no reason to believe they are "hiding the real them" from me. The things they relate to me, be it about work, life, their wives, AP's, whatever, they are consistent with the way I view and deal with them. Maybe they are censoring themselves, that is a possibility. But I'm not censoring myself, either with them, or with the other posters here. If I had them to the level you describe, if I really was in love with women I slept with, if I coupled love and sex together, I'd tell you. It's not my ego, in fact, I think it's pretty crappy that I have the 2 so segregated in my head; it's just that's not the way it is for me, it's not my reality. And when other men talk to me, they relate to me in the same reality that I'm used to living in. I know I'm not lying (unless I'm lying to myself), so I have no reason to believe they are.

[Overtaxed]

Honestly, most men that behave how your describing are jaded, cowardess & just plainly don’t know how to love...themselves, their wife & or anyone. If a any person be man or woman that basis decision on ego...is someone that is extremely insecure inside & doesn’t feel like they’re enough inside or they wouldn’t behave that way. Men can be damaged too, they just many times show it through sex. Remember for men & women...everything is about sex but sex.

 

The difference is women usually can admit after awhile they have issues...men try to pretend they don’t & many times that comes out in destructive behavior & have sex with multiple women just to make one’s ego feel better...is descuctive.

 

OP...you have deeper issues than just wanting to have sex with another woman. Be smarter than most men & actually try to figure out what’s off in you vs being like most men that cheat & want to make themselves believe “it’s what men do”. I come from not just a culture where men cheating is ok but a family of men in that culture & I’ll be the first to say it’s based on many of those men not feeling like enough on other aspects of their life. Good luck

 

I agree with some of this, but, some of it; feels like you're saying that men who enjoy sleeping with lots of women all have ego issues. I don't think that's the case at all.

 

Let me draw an example with food. Some people have a real problem with food, they are using it fill a hole in themselves. They eat until they are sick, and they kill themselves a little bit at a time every day with their food choices. They are overweight and unhappy with who they are, but they keep eating anyway.

 

Then there are people who just enjoy food. They like eating out, they enjoy the experience, they enjoy the different menus, they are genuinely interested in food; and can describe the difference between a rare and medium rare steak down to the temperature range.

 

I feel like I'm the 2nd, I slept with a lot of women, not to fill a hole in me, not to feed my ego, but because I really enjoy sex. I enjoyed the whole thing, the chase, the excitement of it, the "conquest". The whole experience was enjoyable to me. And I studied it, I wanted to know more about women, how to seduce them and how to make them feel good in bed. It was a skill, and an art to me, something I wanted to be good at, and something that I really enjoyed.

 

Yes, there are people who are having sex not because they like food, but because they have an eating problem. But I don't think that's most men, and I don't think it was me. It wasn't that I was addicted to it, I just enjoyed it. It was fun, just like taking a bike ride is fun, or going for a run. And like both of those activities, I wanted to be good at it, so I studied, improved, and tried to get better both at seducing women and sex itself. But I don't think it's because I was trying to hide who I was/am, I don't think it's because I had an addiction, I just liked it and did it when I had time.

 

I guess the big issue that I now face, to use the running analogy, I thought that women enjoyed it too. I thought we were both going out for a run together. But, what I now have some to realize is that my hobby; it was terribly hurting other people. Those running shoes I was wearing were made my slave children treated horribly. The thing I thought was "fun" was causing far more damage than it was causing me pleasure.

[BluesPower]

Blue, i have to ask you this & overtaxed...have either of you ever seen a man cry over an AP? Cry over him being in completely distress? When there’s been no DDay? Blue, have you ever been distressed over any of the women you slept with?

 

Bc I’m my life I’ve seen A LOT of men cry over that kind of distress & be not even close to being caught...& I’m talking about “men’s men” sports players, attorneys, construction guys...men that would talk to men as yourselves & explain everything the way you both do...& then an hour later be in front of someone like me & breakdown.

 

Have you ever thought perception is someone’s reality. Do you think men really go to other men & open up about their real feelings? With both of your logics do you really think that other manly men would actually be 100% vulnerable with this kind of logic being stated? Do you really tell other men exactly your inner feelings? If you can’t tell another man that you don’t agree with their A, how would one think any other man would be so open with you?

 

Lucky bc I'm a woman that grew up & around with so many men...I get To see a whole other side. I’m the safe zone for a lot of men in my life & still am. The men that have opened up to me (related & not) would never in a million years tell other men what they’ve told me. So let’s be also honest about that. Men don’t show vulnerability in front of other men...majority just don’t!

 

It goes back to that “men don’t cry” “men aren’t sissies”...men can be way more sensitive than women...they just show it differently & have been trained by society not to be verbal about it. Look up statistics...behavior is always deeper than just what one sees.

 

You know I am not that insensitive...

 

I've got feelings and.... emotions and all that.

 

I had to break up with one girl and I cried when I was doing it. That one hurt a lot. So it is not like I don't/didn't have feelings or did not love them.

 

In fact I am a person that can love at some level multiple women.

 

But others, no I was not in love.

 

But I will also say this. Everyone that is screwing around, you are a coward.

 

Either you are too lazy to fix the marriage, or too scared to get out, or maybe some people don't know how to fix it, or maybe they don't realize that they can't fix it, who knows.

 

But I want everyone to know that true love is out there. Maybe it is with your marriage partner, maybe with someone else.

 

With my new GF, we are so in love that it is hard to believe, I am constantly pinching myself to see if I am dreaming.

 

Now with this relationship, I am completely monogamous, and I could not be in love like this with more than one person, her.

 

This is completely different, and completely wonderful.

 

Maybe this was what I was always looking for, and just did not know it existed...

[FMW]

Thanks Overtaxed!

 

Most of us women do live and breath emotions and feelings, and love getting together with our girlfriends to chat about them for hours! We have a hard time then believing that most men are so very different about that. I added "Most" for both descriptions because I'm sure there are always exceptions, but those are by far the minority.

 

Our analysis of what a MM is doing based on our way of thinking and feeling leads to the obsession so many OW get thoroughly stuck in. It's said so many times but seems to be hard to accept by so many OW - look at what he's doing in order to figure out where you stand. As long as a MM stays married, it doesn't really matter anyway whether he loves the OW or not - he clearly does not love her enough, she's clearly not the priority in his life.

[FMW]

Blues pointed out something very important. He is/was able to love more than one woman at a time. But the type of love he has for his girlfriend now is something he can only feel for one person at a time.

 

That's the key. Do you want to be one of two, or three, or......? I want to be the ONE. Again, look at the actions.