Why can't people be liked for who they are

[Normm]

I am not going to back down on the assertion that ladies need to put in some effort too.

 

I understand why you feel this way. At 34 you're a dateless virgin with dim prospects for the future. By finding fault with those you meet and are rejected by, you are able to self validate. You can look yourself in the mirror and say to your reflection "It's not my fault, they just wouldn't put in the effort and show any interest".

 

It's an adaptive mechanism that allows you to cope with your countless failures and rejections, however there's a problem. When you couple that bitter, "blame everyone else" attitude with all the reason you've never gotten a second date in the first place, it brings you even further from you goal of ever meeting a girl and getting into a relationship.

 

Over time, you have moved the goal posts. You're no longer really considering a relationship as a viable option, you're simply looking for someone, anyone to validate your position. Unfortunately, as you can see no one agrees with you. But that really doesn't matter does it? You'll just dig your heels in, continue to say the same things over and over again as if that will change anything.

 

My experience those that put in no effort have zero value to me at all.

 

They aren't going to put in the effort because after they sit down with you for 5 minutes and listen to your very weird, flat, boring, unenthusiasic way of communicating they're thinking "WTF is wrong with this guy how can I get out of here".

Edited July 27, 2018 by Normm

[normal person]

I am not going to back down on the assertion that ladies need to put in some effort too.

 

You not backing down from your assertion that has lead you nowhere will continue to take you nowhere. You have no clout to expect a certain level of effort until you command one, which you don't.

 

Going back to my earlier analogy about the stock price, what if you desperately need to buy something with the money you've invested? What if you're starving (as your dating life is)? Will you still insist that someone pay you $100 even though the buyers are only willing to pay $60? Because in terms of your dating life, you're nearing the point of starvation. At what point will the hunger pangs become so great that you to capitulate and accept that no one wants to pay what you're asking, and that you look ridiculous and petulant asking for it, like you have no idea how the whole system works?

 

That being said, any woman you meet puts in some effort and gives you a chance. They chose to go out on a date with you, they got dressed up, and spent an evening of their time gambling on a stranger. But they don't have to do that, and they don't have to do anything else, either. People will do what they like. If you're appealing enough for them to do more, or you're skilled or engaging enough for them to want to learn more about you or converse or share with you more, then they will. If they won't, and you're upset about it and they're not, then it's your failing, not their's. If you're upset by the lack of results, work to be better at getting them. If you're upset by the quality of woman you've been getting, work to be better at dating a different quality.

 

There is no part of your situation that suggests women "owe" you some kind of effort or that they should pay $100 for something they think is worth less than that. If you didn't get the effort you wanted, it's because you didn't command it. If you didn't command it for whatever reason, then the only solution is to work harder to be able to do so. Women do not owe you anything. You are on the bottom rung. If you ascend the ladder and command a higher value, maybe someone will pay up for you.

 

 

No I will do what is likely to net some sort of reward and doing things for the sake of doing them isn't one of those things I am likely to do.

 

How's it been going so far?

 

 

Sure the market values me at zero. I have two options.

 

 

: don't give a f

: pander to the market

 

You could also try not being so entitled, bitter, stubborn, and narrow minded.

 

The former is more likely than the latter. What do I get out pander, no certainty that's for sure. I can go on dates pretend to be dense I suppose, pretend I like booze, clubs and sports. Not sure how well that pretend will go. Pretend to have no opinion on anything.

 

Ahh yes, the old ZA Dater adage: "Women are only attracted to unoriginal, deceptive, men who enjoy booze, clubs and sports, and nothing else. They reject me because I'm a one of a kind, genuine, intellectual and not because I'm an entitled, un-nuanced, stiff who can't understand the basic subtleties of human interaction and sexual market value."

 

 

Reality is I don't really go out so its all mute anyway.

 

Good to know that people here aren't wasting their time trying to help you, then. Joke's on us (again).

[Imajerk17]

I am not going to back down on the assertion that ladies need to put in some effort too.

 

 

No I will do what is likely to net some sort of reward and doing things for the sake of doing them isn't one of those things I am likely to do.

 

 

Sure the market values me at zero. I have two options.

 

 

: don't give a f

: pander to the market

 

The former is more likely than the latter. What do I get out pander, no certainty that's for sure. I can go on dates pretend to be dense I suppose, pretend I like booze, clubs and sports. Not sure how well that pretend will go. Pretend to have no opinion on anything.

 

 

Reality is I don't really go out so its all mute anyway.

 

1. BUT, women HAVE been putting in the effort with you. The woman who asked you about the novel you were writing was an example. She cared enough to read your profile and remember that fact about you, and she was hoping to find out more about you on the date. You shut that down though, as already discussed in several earlier posts.

 

2. The 2nd blurb I bolded above is telling. You seem to view learning social skills--so you can relate to others in a way that they would enjoy--as "pandering to the market" as in, you'd be some kind of suck-up selling out for approval. It's just not true, and unfortunately, I just don't see how your results will improve until you change this attitude.

 

Every time you post a specific example--the woman who asked about your novel, your conversation patter on dates, you are given some really good suggestions on how you could have handled differently/could handle much better for the next time. Instead of taking it in though, you have been resisting--defending yourself. Well, but there really isn't anything to defend yourself from here. You aren't under attack, your stubbornness is exasperating though and it is showing through in the responses. We all want to see you succeed in dating ZA but that will not happen unless you make some changes.

 

Anyway I do think your posting how you approach your dates--the list of the kind of questions you tend to ask--was a great idea on your part and I agree with the comments that you have gotten so far. I am hoping you take in the suggestions, AND if you aren't sure how to take the suggestions into actionable items that you can use going forward, that you ask how.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Imajerk17

[Normm]

Ahh yes, the old ZA Dater adage: "Women are only attracted to unoriginal, deceptive, men who enjoy booze, clubs and sports, and nothing else. They reject me because I'm a one of a kind, genuine, intellectual and not because I'm an entitled, un-nuanced, stiff who can't understand the basic subtleties of human interaction and sexual market value."

 

ZA Dater HAS to think this way. It's the only way he can accept the fact that he's never gotten a second date in his entire life and probably never will. What's the alternative? Dealing with the cold, hard truth that the problem falls squarely on his own shoulders? He is clearly incapable of doing this, it's about as foreign a concept as me sitting at a piano and playing Beethoven's 5th symphony.

 

Good to know that people here aren't wasting their time trying to help you, then.

 

They're not? What about the thousands of replies he's gotten over the past 3 years, most of which have been completely dismissed?

[brigit87]

 

What about the thousands of replies he's gotten over the past 3 years, most of which have been completely dismissed?

 

Well OP you might not be great at dating but apparently you're great at making interesting dating threads.

 

This is actually a good sign.

 

What you need to do is to apply your "thread skill" into dating.

 

 

When you post you're forced to give space to others to respond because you have life to attend to but when you're on a date you probably monopolize the conversation with long winded stories and a massive amount of questions.

 

Go on a date force yourself to "shut up" and refrain from asking questions.

[Imajerk17]

Well OP you might not be great at dating but apparently you're great at making interesting dating threads.

 

This is actually a good sign.

 

What you need to do is to apply your "thread skill" into dating.

 

 

When you post you're forced to give space to others to respond because you have life to attend to but when you're on a date you probably monopolize the conversation with long winded stories and a massive amount of questions.

 

Go on a date force yourself to "shut up" and refrain from asking questions.

 

Or maybe instead WE are the ones with too much free time on our hands

 

But yes good advice. Let HER carry more of the conversation. Silence at the right time, and being comfortable with the silence, can be golden.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I haven't read the whole thread but I would hate to be on the receiving end of questions you describe. It feels so tedious and doesn't help to create any emotional connection. Next time, try not asking a question at all. Start talking about a random part of your day. Prepare a few light hearted stories about yourself and your life and then wait for her to share something in return. Talk about your surroundings. You are trying to create a fun vibe and let the organic flow of conversation develop. If she doesn't talk much or share much in return, not to worry, she is not interested but the next one might be.

[Normm]

Well OP you might not be great at dating but apparently you're great at making interesting dating threads.

 

 

I do find his threads interesting despite the overwhelming tendency towards repetition and complete lack of productivity. It's like getting an inside look at a mind that views the world from a very skewed perspective and is completely and utterly incapable of deviating even slightly from an extremely rigid and inflexible way of thinking.

[ZA Dater]

I haven't read the whole thread but I would hate to be on the receiving end of questions you describe. It feels so tedious and doesn't help to create any emotional connection. Next time, try not asking a question at all. Start talking about a random part of your day. Prepare a few light hearted stories about yourself and your life and then wait for her to share something in return. Talk about your surroundings. You are trying to create a fun vibe and let the organic flow of conversation develop. If she doesn't talk much or share much in return, not to worry, she is not interested but the next one might be.

 

 

 

This is interesting. If I didn't ask anything on some of these dates I would have sat there in silence. I find they seldom share anything so I am forced to try and get them to share something or anything hence the approach I thought was reasonable but clearly isn't.

[ZA Dater]

This sums it up nicely.

 

OP no matter who your date is they're not going to be fascinated by you. You're not a astronaut or a surgeon you're just a guy in their 30's.

 

Plus, they don't want pressure to be interesting.

 

Your dating style has this subtext:

 

"I'm massively important and interesting. Are you?"

 

 

 

I hope this helps. If it doesn't then sorry.

 

 

So what is the point then? Seriously what is the point of sitting with someone who doesn't interest you?

[ZA Dater]

I understand why you feel this way. At 34 you're a dateless virgin with dim prospects for the future. By finding fault with those you meet and are rejected by, you are able to self validate. You can look yourself in the mirror and say to your reflection "It's not my fault, they just wouldn't put in the effort and show any interest".

 

It's an adaptive mechanism that allows you to cope with your countless failures and rejections, however there's a problem. When you couple that bitter, "blame everyone else" attitude with all the reason you've never gotten a second date in the first place, it brings you even further from you goal of ever meeting a girl and getting into a relationship.

 

Over time, you have moved the goal posts. You're no longer really considering a relationship as a viable option, you're simply looking for someone, anyone to validate your position. Unfortunately, as you can see no one agrees with you. But that really doesn't matter does it? You'll just dig your heels in, continue to say the same things over and over again as if that will change anything.

 

 

 

They aren't going to put in the effort because after they sit down with you for 5 minutes and listen to your very weird, flat, boring, unenthusiasic way of communicating they're thinking "WTF is wrong with this guy how can I get out of here".

 

 

Yes I am thinking why I bothered meeting a conformist, apathetic, poorly informed person. It goes both ways.

 

 

I am quite happy to admit I messed some of these dates up, the ones I really liked I messed up, considering how seldom I find anyone I like that does sting so don't for one minute thing I don't take responsibility.

 

 

I live with those decisions albeit bad ones. It doesn't help much to look around and see very few good examples of how to meet people to date, truthfully most of my views are garnered from time spent with the few friends I have, all of which has radically different personalities to me. All of which are more outgoing than me.

 

 

I have to live with your first paragraph too, its not especially nice waking up each day with that as the reality but I thought about it do I

 

 

1: Simply just tell people, look you are on a date with me I am useless at dating.

2: No bother at all.

 

 

1 would make me more comfortable but would be a death wish, honestly I have basically looked for people who I thought may cut me some slack and to an extent the few friendships I have allow for that.

[brigit87]

So what is the point then? Seriously what is the point of sitting with someone who doesn't interest you?

 

Like I said if nobody interests you: Don't date.

[Normm]

So what is the point then? Seriously what is the point of sitting with someone who doesn't interest you?

 

That's not the right question.

 

You need to be asking "Why isn't this person opening up to me and sharing more of themselves with me. Why do they feel so uncomfortable, why does literally everyone I date feel uncomfortable with me so much that they go completely silent and act like the last thing they want to be doing is sitting across the table from me".

[Beachead]

Very sensible post. I'd be interested to know how you deal with the social aspect of never having dates, how you deal with the inevitable loneliness.

 

 

I have done the "work and work and work" thing to distract myself but its not working as well as it used to, perhaps because I have been to so many funerals this year the realisation really hit home I am 34, never dated, never really had that whole experience in life.

 

 

Of course I have my interests, things I am working on but it becomes a bit shallow when there is nobody to share any of that with.

 

Goals, friend. Working towards something meaningful. Dreaming. That's all it is. But you have to be extremely strategic and specific with it.

 

I have this mental image in my head of how I want my future to be right down to the specifics. I'm living someplace warm. Tall trees and plant life and a birdbath in my backyard. A big dog by my side. A nice kitchen to cook in. A music studio for me to compose and release music to Documentaries, independent film. A modern looking, home. Teaching music to anyone willing to learn and use it as a basis to show them how in control of their own life they actually are. A nice oldschool Jeep to drive in my slippers when I'm travelling some distance. Maybe a sweet Jaguar F-Type with a V8 so that I can drive it and hear that beautiful roar

 

The best part for that image is I'll finally be able to be in a place to give back to the people I love including the the next generation of kids. Motivate by example.

 

In pursuit of all that, I work on being a better person. I want to have a wealth of knowledge. I want to be able to speak to people comfortable. I want to be able to deal with failure like a champion. Every single move I make in my life is tied to that image in my head and I will sacrifice whatever I have to do to realize it. That's what I live for.

 

Is it hard sometimes? No doubt. We're human and we seek companionship and intimacy and sometimes I miss the people I lost. I see couples all the time. I have friends and family getting engaged, married, having children, moving in together, buying a house together etc. and Social Media just really drives it home.

 

But hey..if I'm going to suffer..I'm going to suffer going after that image in my head. It's worth dying for.

 

People and dating and relationships? I got no control over how other people think, feel, or react. You can't win them with hard work. You can't win them by being a good person. You have no clue how they'll be tomorrow. They can change in a finger snap. Makes no sense for me to bank my efforts and emotions into high risk things like that anymore. Much of my 20's was spent getting over heartbreak.

 

When a time comes when or if I get back to dating or I end up meeting someone..I have my own life going on. Something that I live and breathe I'm passionate about. Something that makes me smile and happy and brings out the best sides of me. If the woman is a proper catch, she'll be there and stick with me and it'll work and if not, I got enough going on in my life where I won't be desperate enough to stay with her destroy myself in fear of being alone.

 

That's how I deal.

 

- Beach

[ZA Dater]

I do find his threads interesting despite the overwhelming tendency towards repetition and complete lack of productivity. It's like getting an inside look at a mind that views the world from a very skewed perspective and is completely and utterly incapable of deviating even slightly from an extremely rigid and inflexible way of thinking.

 

 

I will deviate if that thinking is challenged, you are starting to actually understand that now. Why do I find certain people very attractive because they force me to change my thinking, they force me to do things differently to try and get a different result. A teacher who sits there and offers up nothing doesn't challenge me at all. Someone who regales me with tales of trips to the Congo and trips to the theatre does. Someone who speaks well challenges me.

 

 

I can think differently when encouraged to do so or I see some benefit in doing so but at least 90% of these dates didn't warrant that. Clearly my idea of dating is wrong and I accept that. But then clearly my idea of what is attractive is also wrong. One goes with the other.

 

 

You might not believe it but I do, if there was someone single I really liked wholly then I would change but there isn't so why bother. Simplistic stupid answer but its also a reality. Do I give up before I try, yes actually quite a lot at dating, that athletic brunette over there isn't going to be interest in me so why bother. That's my reply to Normal Person's stock question.

[brigit87]

That's not the right question.

 

You need to be asking "Why isn't this person opening up to me and sharing more of themselves with me. Why do they feel so uncomfortable, why does literally everyone I date feel uncomfortable with me so much that they go completely silent and act like the last thing they want to be doing is sitting across the table from me".

 

 

Normm is correct. Self reflection is difficult and it's a lot less painful to think that everyone is just stupid and boring.

 

Water seeks it's own level. Try to find someone like you. Who is interested in the stuff you're interested in and is at your level of physical attractiveness whatever that may be. And when you find it realize that the person will be majorly flawed as all ppl are and accept them anyway.

[Normm]

if there was someone single I really liked wholly then I would change but there isn't so why bother. Simplistic stupid answer but its also a reality.

 

Real change comes from within, gradually over a period of time, probably years- usually with the help and guidance of others, such as trained therapists. We don't just find a person we like and suddenly turn into this entirely new person so they'll want to be with us. But I do completely understand why you believe this to be true.

[Normm]

People and dating and relationships? I got no control over how other people think, feel, or react. You can't win them with hard work. You can't win them by being a good person. You have no clue how they'll be tomorrow. They can change in a finger snap.

 

 

Perhaps someone who is mentally unstable can change in a finger snap. I've had the displeasure to know a few. But someone who is grounded, in touch with their feeling and who doesn't have major personality flaws or psychology disorders? They're not going to just "snap", or at least the odds are so low you can pretty much plan your life around them being there. Unless problems start to arise in the relationship- and if you are aware and in touch with what's going on and you take care of your partner's needs you'll won't be caught off guard.

[ZA Dater]

Normm is correct. Self reflection is difficult and it's a lot less painful to think that everyone is just stupid and boring.

 

Water seeks it's own level. Try to find someone like you. Who is interested in the stuff you're interested in and is at your level of physical attractiveness whatever that may be. And when you find it realize that the person will be majorly flawed as all ppl are and accept them anyway.

 

 

 

I prefer the opposite of me.

[brigit87]

I prefer the opposite of me.

 

Well it seems you've found lots of that since the women have none of your interests.

 

In my experience men all seems to want the same thing a woman who excites them and calms them at the same time.

 

Have a cup of tea it does the same thing.

[ZA Dater]

Real change comes from within, gradually over a period of time, probably years- usually with the help and guidance of others, such as trained therapists. We don't just find a person we like and suddenly turn into this entirely new person so they'll want to be with us. But I do completely understand why you believe this to be true.

 

 

 

Yeah well I don't have years so that pretty much rules that out. If my pool is bad now I would had to know what it would be like in 5 years. Again I just have to live with what is, it is what it is for whatever reason.

 

 

The critique of the extract was helpful, I saw nothing wrong with those questions. If I go out I usually just let them speak and try then just add to that, sometimes I need to ask questions to get them to speak hence the scripted nature of it.

 

 

I do pretty much own what I am, I know people think I am odd, if I think about that it makes me sad and regretful, if I ignore it life goes on. The choice is simple really. I can tell you its not a nice feeling walking around seeing couples, seeing people who look great and then looking what I can offer versus what they probably want, that to me is ultimate introspection.

 

 

Maybe I do have it wrong maybe it is a game of being the same. Makes me wonder then why some of the same are not more equal to others of the same. What you also touched on was bitterness, again I own that, you try loosing out every time you like someone. I then look at who I lost out to and it just becomes baffling but maybe a bit less so now. Perhaps I just thought I had enough good to make the difference but "people want to spend time with people they enjoy spending time with", I am no different, except few want to spend time with me.

 

 

I have perhaps three people in life I really enjoy spending time with, they are also the same people who try help me move forward. You aren't wrong maybe I don't come across well, maybe in the dating arena I am defeatist but its SO hard to be anything else when all you have taste is defeat after defeat and anyone you have liked hasn't been interested. Maybe you know what that's like, perhaps not.

 

 

How much are we as people worth, I don't know, pretty much everyone I have ever liked hasn't exactly been a model, none have in fact, what most have had were pretty faces and personalities which intrigued me so to me they were amazing people.

 

 

Perhaps Beach is right.

[Normm]

I prefer the opposite of me.

 

Unfortunately the women you date feel the same.

[ZA Dater]

Well it seems you've found lots of that since the women have none of your interests.

 

In my experience men all seems to want the same thing a woman who excites them and calms them at the same time.

 

Have a cup of tea it does the same thing.

 

 

 

I prefer hot chocolate.

[GemmaUK]

So the ones you say you met and liked but messed up the dates..

Give us the script - in detail.

What happened - in detail.

[basil67]

This is interesting. If I didn't ask anything on some of these dates I would have sat there in silence. I find they seldom share anything so I am forced to try and get them to share something or anything hence the approach I thought was reasonable but clearly isn't.

 

Of course you need to ask questions. Just don't ask three in the same sentence and end the sentence by talking about yourself. Just as the book woman was asking questions to get to know you.

 

Out of curiosity, if a woman's interests aren't shared by you, do you ask about those interests anyway or simply not mention them?