Is this a "thing" acceptable for a married person to do?

[Eternal Sunshine]

I think it's weird that he made no mention of his family. All of my bosses and co-workers are married and nearly every meeting both men and women would reference their spouses or kids in some way. Either as a part of a small talk in what they did or planned to do for the weekend or a place they traveled to or something. My point is that you don't have to be super personal (or even personal at all) for someone to mention the family. Especially when having drinks 1-1 for the first time with someone of the opposite sex

 

I think your intuition is spot on OP. His motives were not entirely pure.

[CardsFan01]

 

Is there no way he had decent intentions? Again, my instinct says, "No." He deliberately hid the fact that he is a husband and father.

 

:

 

Why don’t you just ask him what his intentions are instead of trying to guess? He may be looking for a convenient fwb while traveling. Or he may think highly of you professionally and wants to hire you. A relaxed conversation in a social setting as a perfectly reasonable way to get a feel for a future employee. Just ask him.

[sandylee1]

People sometimes get irritated when a married person mentions their husband or wife...when it's not required...as if to warn them off.

 

He wasn't bothered that you saw his marital status on FB...so maybe you were overthinking it.

 

Or maybe he was testing the waters with you.

[d0nnivain]

As I've said several times, I wasn't interested. I thought he was nice, I could tell we made a connection at our clinic, and I'm practicing being open-minded and not defining everything at the offset. I went for a drink with him knowing that professionally, there is a power differential, but not quite in the same way as in a corporate industry. The rules are more lax. I figured I'd meet him for a drink, and if there was any romantic connection, I'd be open to another date, but if there was not, then I'd have an industry connection that might help me get a leg up.

 

I am upset not because he's not available romantically, but because most of my career I've met one on one with men as well as women at work expecting always a purely professional purpose, yet finding myself time and again in a sticky situation where the other person has non-professional intentions--either wanting to be my friend when I really just want a mentor, or wanting a romantic liaison with me and not giving a whit about my professional qualifications. So this time I went into things with--I thought--my eyes wide open.

 

Donnivain is right: since I really can't tell what his purpose was in meeting with me, I have lost all desire to look to him for mentorship--particularly, as well, since I have come to know I have excellent instincts, and my instincts told me he WAS interested, was happy for me to think of this as a date, and it suited his purposes for it to be a bit vague what we were doing meeting for a drink. It's the vibe I got and I'm certainly self-aware enough to know when I'm "projecting," and when I am clearly picking up something from the other person.

 

Based on this & some other posts I suspect you have trouble reading situations. Because you can't tell whether something is a professional meeting or a date you end up confused & frustrated.

 

I suspect if you make your boundaries clearer this will stop happening. It has a lot to do with body language & non verbal cues. Do you offer a firm handshake to colleagues? That is a sign of business. A weak handshake or none at all is feminine & arguably flirtatious. Do you square your shoulders & look at the person directly in the eyes or are there sideways glances & you peering up through your lashes? The latter is flirty; the former is direct & professional.

 

Or maybe not so far or so explicitly as an "affair," but certainly enjoying the more relaxed boundaries not making clear his intentions were purely professional afforded him. That's something I was curious about at the offset that made me start this thread: is this something married people do from time to time, just to prove to themselves that they still "have it"? Ask someone single out for a drink, not say anything about being married or having a partner, and just toying with the possibilities in their imagination with no intention of actually acting on them, then coming home vitiated by the knowledge that they could still play the field if they were single.

 

All I know is that if I were not single, I'd have made sure he knew I had a boyfriend or husband before agreeing to meet him for a drink. But as someone pointed out, that's only what *I* would do.

 

Next time, I'm going to do more internet sleuthing on the person so I have more idea what I'm getting into before I meet with someone.

 

Such investigation is appropriate in a social setting but unnecessary in a professional context. If you are seeking a mentor that person's marital status is irrelevant. You continue to blur lines & that is what causes you these problems & why colleagues ask you out. You are giving off flirty signals even when you think you aren't

[anika99]

I really disagree with everyone telling the OP that everything is all in her head and the guy in question is totally innocent and honourable.

 

This doesn't sound like it was a business meeting at all. The OP says they spent the evening together and spoke about a wide array of subjects. It doesn't sound like it was focused on business in the least bit so I'm not sure why everyone is so adamant that this was a professional meeting.

 

As for him accepting her Facebook request knowing that she would see that he was married, well that could have been a way to feel her out and find out where she stands in the realm of cheating. He lets her stew with that info and then asks her out again. If she accepts he thinks, "okay my wife and kids haven't scared her off so now I can take things a little further." Afterall most cheating men don't just walk up to a woman and say "hey I'm married but I want to screw you on the side. Are you up for it?" Instead they put out their feelers. It's very subtle at first so that if the woman they are pursuing becomes offended they can back the bus up and feign innocence.

 

I can't say with certainty that this is this guy's intentions but nobody can say with certainty that it isn't. It is entirely within the realm of possibilities given what the OP has told us.

[Zapbasket]

I really disagree with everyone telling the OP that everything is all in her head and the guy in question is totally innocent and honourable.

 

This doesn't sound like it was a business meeting at all. The OP says they spent the evening together and spoke about a wide array of subjects. It doesn't sound like it was focused on business in the least bit so I'm not sure why everyone is so adamant that this was a professional meeting.

 

As for him accepting her Facebook request knowing that she would see that he was married, well that could have been a way to feel her out and find out where she stands in the realm of cheating. He lets her stew with that info and then asks her out again. If she accepts he thinks, "okay my wife and kids haven't scared her off so now I can take things a little further." Afterall most cheating men don't just walk up to a woman and say "hey I'm married but I want to screw you on the side. Are you up for it?" Instead they put out their feelers. It's very subtle at first so that if the woman they are pursuing becomes offended they can back the bus up and feign innocence.

 

I can't say with certainty that this is this guy's intentions but nobody can say with certainty that it isn't. It is entirely within the realm of possibilities given what the OP has told us.

 

THANK YOU. My instincts on this, as on most things, are quite clear. Contrary to what Donnavain said above, I read situations quite well; I have had a history, however, of not listening to my instincts. After all, why on earth would I assume that a senator in his late 70s would be hoping to get into my pants rather than providing mentorship (this happened in my early thirties)? And no, I do not dress provocatively; I present myself professionally, articulately, and intellectually in pretty much all situations, professional as well as personal. I'm pretty formal until I get to know someone. But yes, I have a lot of energy, and am caring and vivacious, and perhaps this makes some people think they have a green light to things that, if they were not sleazy to begin with, they wouldn't be thinking about, anyway.

 

And I love that aspect of myself; I think in many cases it wins me clients and most importantly to me, my caring and warmth makes others feel valued and I am proud to have that ability. What I am working to change is to cut myself off from sleaze as soon as it shows itself, even as a glimmer, rather than rationalize it away to tell myself I'm being "difficult," or "exaggerating," and all the other crap especially women are conditioned in our society to tell ourselves so as to blame OUR behavior rather than place the blame where it belongs, on the gross entitled sleaze that recent news has shown a lot of people in power cultivate. So, thanks to your collective perspective, I'm not going to say anything to this guy, but I'm also not going to go out with him again and I'm not offering an explanation, and I'll be cordial with him in professional situations but I will be looking elsewhere for mentorship. I just refuse to believe that his behavior is "to standard" at all; there are better, more clearly communicative mentors and people out there.

[d0nnivain]

anika99

 

I agree with you that his behavior could have been nefarious but I'm not ready to say that any time 2 colleagues consume food or beverages together that it's cheating.

 

The OP wasn't clear on what this was. She admits that she didn't know if it was a date or 2 colleagues & a potential mentor for her. Since she was unclear, it was incumbent upon her to clarify. Her failure to do that doesn't automatically make him a bad guy. In another post she admits that she would have been open to another date with him because she was working on being more open & not instantly labeling things. As a result my sense was that she wanted it to be a date rather than work so despite her protests that she wasn't interested her ego has been bruised. Understandably but still that doesn't automatically make him the bad guy.

[hippychick3]

I’m in the camp of seeing it as highly suspect that he made no reference or mention of his wife or kids given their conversation (over dinner and drinks) was not strictly business. This would be semi-normal only if it were already known by both parties that he was married (such as in Donnivan’s examples).

 

I believe he was feeling her out and had to accept the FB request as it would have appeared strange not to. It doesn’t mean he was happy for her to see he was married.

[Zapbasket]

anika99

 

I agree with you that his behavior could have been nefarious but I'm not ready to say that any time 2 colleagues consume food or beverages together that it's cheating.

 

The OP wasn't clear on what this was. She admits that she didn't know if it was a date or 2 colleagues & a potential mentor for her. Since she was unclear, it was incumbent upon her to clarify. Her failure to do that doesn't automatically make him a bad guy. In another post she admits that she would have been open to another date with him because she was working on being more open & not instantly labeling things. As a result my sense was that she wanted it to be a date rather than work so despite her protests that she wasn't interested her ego has been bruised. Understandably but still that doesn't automatically make him the bad guy.

 

Donnivain, I don't think either I or Anika or anyone else is saying it's cheating any time two colleagues get together outside of work. I do think, however, that in an industry such as mine that is comprised largely of single people and a lot of "Peter Pan" types, it wasn't wrong of me to assume he would fit that demographic ESPECIALLY as no wife or girlfriend was mentioned. Usually the people who aren't single make that known, since it is a pretty loose industry with a lot of partying and sleeping around and people do tend to socialize with those expectations lurking in the background.

 

Which is why I don't socialize much in my industry, and why generally I avoid dating anyone in my industry. I don't like the parties and I don't sleep around and I agreed to meet this person because he seemed like he actually had some intellect and depth beyond what usually manifests in our industry. And I don't know how many times I have to say this on here but no, I actually was not and am not really interested. It's just that I'm single, I'm just starting to date again, and I thought I'd just give this a go and see where it leads. If I have a bruised ego, it's because I didn't sniff out this situation quickly enough to avoid wasting an evening on yet another unworthy person.

 

Maybe not a waste, though, since I found out what I didn't know before and I'm immediately acting on it rather than trying to rationalize it away or blaming myself.

[standtall]

OP, IMHO, a long and lovely evening talking about everything..with a little work..is not a business meeting at all. He was gauging you to see if you were down for a little more. Good job on trusting your instincts, and great idea to steer clear in the future.

[d0nnivain]

Donnivain, I don't think either I or Anika or anyone else is saying it's cheating any time two colleagues get together outside of work. I do think, however, that in an industry such as mine that is comprised largely of single people and a lot of "Peter Pan" types, it wasn't wrong of me to assume he would fit that demographic ESPECIALLY as no wife or girlfriend was mentioned. Usually the people who aren't single make that known, since it is a pretty loose industry with a lot of partying and sleeping around and people do tend to socialize with those expectations lurking in the background.

 

Which is why I don't socialize much in my industry, and why generally I avoid dating anyone in my industry. I don't like the parties and I don't sleep around and I agreed to meet this person because he seemed like he actually had some intellect and depth beyond what usually manifests in our industry. And I don't know how many times I have to say this on here but no, I actually was not and am not really interested. It's just that I'm single, I'm just starting to date again, and I thought I'd just give this a go and see where it leads. If I have a bruised ego, it's because I didn't sniff out this situation quickly enough to avoid wasting an evening on yet another unworthy person.

 

Maybe not a waste, though, since I found out what I didn't know before and I'm immediately acting on it rather than trying to rationalize it away or blaming myself.

 

OK. This is your life & if you think something was off with this guy, put some distance in here.

 

I hope you find the mentor you are looking for.

[Zapbasket]

 

I hope you find the mentor you are looking for.

 

Thanks. I appreciate your input. As for finding a good mentor, that's a whole other topic! It's tough for sure and I'm very seriously considering that if you keep trying and failing to find a helpful mentor in an industry...perhaps it's time to consider leaving that industry. A year or so ago, another person in the same high position as the guy I went for drinks with asked me for a ride home after a training clinic (that he lead), and then, as I was dropping him off, said, "If you're ever looking for someone to fool around with, just let me know." I was surprised, grossed out, and especially so after finding out a few days later that he was married with two little girls. He then later offered to work with me one on one to train me, and of course I had to say what a bummer, seems our schedules are incompatible. And this kind of thing is known in this industry and seems, in fact, to be the norm. I so want to discover it is otherwise

[d0nnivain]

Stuff like that is where I think I'm having a disconnect with you. I'm struggling to understand why men always make these inappropriate offers to you.

 

I'm in a male dominated industry. In my 20s I was pretty hot & definitely a flirty girl. That said, not once did I have a senior male colleague hit on me. I had bosses who were absolute pigs who said & did the most God-awful things but not to me. Everybody always treated me respectfully with kid gloves, even in "questionable" settings.

 

There was one instance where the boss pinched my tush. I punched him in the face in response. When he objected I smiled sweetly & said, "Gee, I thought we were doing offensive touching. You started it." We never had a problem again.

 

I have lunch with men almost every day. I have gone shopping for presents for the wives & GFs of many colleagues. I have gone to regular parties & beach parties with male colleagues.

 

In my 30s one of my former co-workers changed careers & became of all things a stand up comedian. The guys asked me to join them for the comedian's debut. I already had plans with a female friend but asked her if she would mind going to the comedy show. She was a little off put that we would be going with 12 guys but agreed. At the end of the night she said she'd never experienced anything like that. All of the guys were flirty & friendly more to me then her but to her too, yet she said it was so obvious that they all loved & respected their wives & GFs. Everybody enjoyed the comedy show & each others company but the lines were always present. That was the interaction I always enjoyed with colleagues, & the filter through which I interpreted your encounter with your colleague.

 

I have always had sort of an on/off switch. If I wanted a man to ask me out when I was younger, it generally happened but if I wanted a platonic colleague thing, especially at work, nobody ever crossed the line. So I'm trying to figure out why you repeatedly have to deal with people who offer you flings & affairs. You are the common denominator here so what is going on?

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

Stuff like that is where I think I'm having a disconnect with you. I'm struggling to understand why men always make these inappropriate offers to you.

 

I'm in a male dominated industry. In my 20s I was pretty hot & definitely a flirty girl. That said, not once did I have a senior male colleague hit on me. I had bosses who were absolute pigs who said & did the most God-awful things but not to me. Everybody always treated me respectfully with kid gloves, even in "questionable" settings.

 

There was one instance where the boss pinched my tush. I punched him in the face in response. When he objected I smiled sweetly & said, "Gee, I thought we were doing offensive touching. You started it." We never had a problem again.

 

I think you probably have a "don't mess with me, I'm a very confident woman" personality/vibe. You proved that by the punch in the face. When I was in my twenties I had a married older man hit on me while I was a temp for a few months in a large engineering firm. He was one of the two men I reported to. He was very clearly having an affair with an older woman in the office, but was a sleazeball to me, too. I was very timid, and if he'd pinched my butt, I don't know what I would have done! I KNOW I would not have had the courage to do and say what you did, and I'm quite sure my demeanor probably screamed that about me as well. Honestly, some women are just more easy prey than others.

[d0nnivain]

So how do we help Green Cove prevent this from happening again?

[Zapbasket]

Stuff like that is where I think I'm having a disconnect with you. I'm struggling to understand why men always make these inappropriate offers to you.

 

I'm in a male dominated industry. In my 20s I was pretty hot & definitely a flirty girl. That said, not once did I have a senior male colleague hit on me. I had bosses who were absolute pigs who said & did the most God-awful things but not to me. Everybody always treated me respectfully with kid gloves, even in "questionable" settings.

 

There was one instance where the boss pinched my tush. I punched him in the face in response. When he objected I smiled sweetly & said, "Gee, I thought we were doing offensive touching. You started it." We never had a problem again.

 

I have lunch with men almost every day. I have gone shopping for presents for the wives & GFs of many colleagues. I have gone to regular parties & beach parties with male colleagues.

 

In my 30s one of my former co-workers changed careers & became of all things a stand up comedian. The guys asked me to join them for the comedian's debut. I already had plans with a female friend but asked her if she would mind going to the comedy show. She was a little off put that we would be going with 12 guys but agreed. At the end of the night she said she'd never experienced anything like that. All of the guys were flirty & friendly more to me then her but to her too, yet she said it was so obvious that they all loved & respected their wives & GFs. Everybody enjoyed the comedy show & each others company but the lines were always present. That was the interaction I always enjoyed with colleagues, & the filter through which I interpreted your encounter with your colleague.

 

I have always had sort of an on/off switch. If I wanted a man to ask me out when I was younger, it generally happened but if I wanted a platonic colleague thing, especially at work, nobody ever crossed the line. So I'm trying to figure out why you repeatedly have to deal with people who offer you flings & affairs. You are the common denominator here so what is going on?

 

Well, I think it's that I was always taught to be polite and to repress my needs to keep peace, and I was taught this in a context of emotional, physical, and some sexual abuse. As an adult, this has meant that I became a people-pleaser who gives off an aura of vulnerability shabbily hidden beneath a naturally independent spirit that because of the abuse I endured, became a defense (and a poor, unconvincing one to people looking to take advantage of others' weaknesses).

 

I never saw this pattern until several years ago, when several bad life events forced me to take a good hard look at my past, how I relate to people, and how I form boundaries. I discovered I never learned how to draw boundaries, while having very well learned how to respect other people's boundaries--even as far as attributing boundaries to people that they didn't even have. (Like I said, I can be very formal.)

 

Add to this that I am a very sensitive, feeling person. A former boyfriend once said to me, "You are such a powerful person, it's easy to forget how fragile you actually are." I think I present just the right "recipe" to narcissistic types of men, who are very well attuned to my fragility, and know how to push those buttons before I'm even aware of what they're doing. Over the past several years, I have worked very hard to be more aware of these things, to stand up more for myself, and to not tolerate behavior I don't like even if it means cutting off liaisons that at first seemed promising. I have learned not to make so many excuses for people anymore.

 

Obviously I"m still working on these things, but I have made tremendous strides and I am very proud of what I have managed to accomplish, and of all the darkness I had to work through to reach a greater level of awareness. I am aware that I am always vulnerable, as I have never in my life had a strong relationship with any man. So the world of men is terra incognita to me, whereas it seems for you it is a very comfortable, familiar place. I am having to learn things that perhaps most women learned as little girls from their fathers or some other positive male caregiver or role model. I really had none of that. And I'm working very hard and very consciously to become stronger in this area, which is why testing my perceptions against those of others in both my personal life and on an erudite forum such as this one is a useful tool for me.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

So how do we help Green Cove prevent this from happening again?

 

I'm not comfortable with the notion that she has to do anything or change anything about the way she is. It sounds like victim blaming. Instead of insisting women act in a certain way to ensure she does not get hit on by married men, how about married men just don't hit on women? Instead of teaching our girls how to avoid rape, how about we teach our boys to not rape? Same idea.

[d0nnivain]

It sounds like you are becoming more introspective & self aware. That can only be a good thing.

 

Boundaries are good things. It's like that saying: Good fences make good neighbors. You can be a people pleaser (I am to some extent & I'm definitely a "fixer") without losing yourself.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

It sounds like you are becoming more introspective & self aware. That can only be a good thing.

 

Boundaries are good things. It's like that saying: Good fences make good neighbors. You can be a people pleaser (I am to some extent & I'm definitely a "fixer") without losing yourself.

 

It takes some of us far too long to learn this! It sounds like you were pretty good at it from a young age. I hope I'm raising my daughter to be more like this.

[d0nnivain]

I was actually the other way. I didn't let many people in for paralyzing fear of getting hurt. In college I loved the thrill of the chase but the minute a guy would start to get serious about me, I dumped him. Post college I became a serial monogamist, with most of my relationships lasting at least 2 years until I lived with an EX for 10.

 

My dad was a good guy but my mom was fierce, take no prisoners & don't you dare mess with me. She was feared by most. At 16 some old fart friend of hers tried to cop a feel. I smacked him across the face. When he tried to tell my mom she should have raised me more politely & docilely, my mom responded that she knew he must have done something to cause me to react that way. She didn't let him turn the tables & try to make his groping my fault.

[Zapbasket]

I was actually the other way. I didn't let many people in for paralyzing fear of getting hurt. In college I loved the thrill of the chase but the minute a guy would start to get serious about me, I dumped him. Post college I became a serial monogamist, with most of my relationships lasting at least 2 years until I lived with an EX for 10.

 

My dad was a good guy but my mom was fierce, take no prisoners & don't you dare mess with me. She was feared by most. At 16 some old fart friend of hers tried to cop a feel. I smacked him across the face. When he tried to tell my mom she should have raised me more politely & docilely, my mom responded that she knew he must have done something to cause me to react that way. She didn't let him turn the tables & try to make his groping my fault.

 

That is AWESOME! Good for your mom. When I was 16, I had a male friend of my parents who was very rich and powerful and helping me with my career (I had one as a teen) proposition me many times, and many times right in front of my parents. When I tried to say something, my mom said nothing, and my step-dad said I was exaggerating. On my own I cut off all ties with that man, writing him a note telling him he made me uncomfortable and he should be ashamed of himself (that was as close as I came to proverbially smacking him in the face), and he showed the letter to my step-dad as well as other men in my career field and my step-dad said they all "had a good laugh over it."

 

Even though I'd gotten rid of that man, I managed to convince myself that all of that was "normal," until just a couple of years ago, when it hit me how awful it all was. How...UNACCEPTABLE. I don't--women and girls don't--have to keep accepting the unacceptable. If I had a daughter I'd want her to handle things like you: smack 'em, punch 'em, tell 'em off--whatever you have to do to put sleaze buckets in their place. It's not impolite; it's self-regard, and self-protection. That's how I see it now...but I didn't always see it that way (or I did intellectually, just was conditioned otherwise emotionally).

[Zapbasket]

I'm not saying my situation with the questionable fellow who is the subject of this thread is an exact iteration of how Sherman Alexie is alleged to have treated some of his female "mentees," but there are certain similarities:

 

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/05/589909379/it-just-felt-very-wrong-sherman-alexies-accusers-go-on-the-record?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20180306

 

The question is, when someone you admire and who has more power and influence in your field than you do seems to take an interest in your work and your development, how do you discern whether it's genuinely for your good or whether they're using the lure of "mentoring" you as a ruse for manipulating you to give them sex or some other benefit? Once you're in the situation, until the person explicitly propositions you it's easy to be blinded to what's going on. So how to you keep your eyes open from the very beginning?

[S2B]

I'm not saying my situation with the questionable fellow who is the subject of this thread is an exact iteration of how Sherman Alexie is alleged to have treated some of his female "mentees," but there are certain similarities:

 

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/05/589909379/it-just-felt-very-wrong-sherman-alexies-accusers-go-on-the-record?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20180306

 

The question is, when someone you admire and who has more power and influence in your field than you do seems to take an interest in your work and your development, how do you discern whether it's genuinely for your good or whether they're using the lure of "mentoring" you as a ruse for manipulating you to give them sex or some other benefit? Once you're in the situation, until the person explicitly propositions you it's easy to be blinded to what's going on. So how to you keep your eyes open from the very beginning?

 

You stick to talk of business and stay on your own side of the street (figuratively).

 

Have a firm boundary and don't cross it.

 

IF the mentor gets creepy discontinue the relationship immediately.

[Zapbasket]

You stick to talk of business and stay on your own side of the street (figuratively).

 

Have a firm boundary and don't cross it.

 

IF the mentor gets creepy discontinue the relationship immediately.

 

While it's true some of the women in this Alexie situation, as well as other women in other situations detailed over the news in recent months, did give in and sleep with these creeps, in most cases it wasn't the women who had the boundary issues. Also, sure, when someone doesn't have much power in a field even though they have more than you, it's easy-ish to just cut off the liaison; when it's someone very powerful it's a lot more potentially consequential to your career success. Harvey Weinstein, for example, ruined a lot of careers--possibly more careers than he made. If it were as simple as you say, it wouldn't be so rampant.

 

Any other ideas?

[littleblackheart]

The question is, when someone you admire and who has more power and influence in your field than you do seems to take an interest in your work and your development, how do you discern whether it's genuinely for your good or whether they're using the lure of "mentoring" you as a ruse for manipulating you to give them sex or some other benefit? Once you're in the situation, until the person explicitly propositions you it's easy to be blinded to what's going on. So how to you keep your eyes open from the very beginning?

 

Even though it does happen, most people generally do act professionally.

 

You can't control what other people do, and you can't let it dominate your thoughts. Treat everyone in the same way, mentor or not, pick their brains on professional stuff but don't make it obvious that you admire them - flattery would get to most people's heads. Only meet them when necessary or already set-up and ask a third-party to be present if you still have concerns.