God's Sovereignty or Human Free Will?

[Soccer1986]

So my question is simply if you believe that - how do you explain Jesus words ?

 

How do you explain what he states in Luke 13 - The parable of the fig tree.

How do you explain what he states in Matthew 13 - The Parable of the weeds.

 

“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."

 

I'm just struggling to see how you could have another interpretation after reading that.

 

 

This is all a symbolic picture of what happened in the death of Christ on the cross. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There are none righteous. Romans 3:10-24. None seek after God. All of us went through that purging fire when Christ died on the cross and all were made righteous through Him. Fire is a symbol of purging out the evil and unrighteousness. The wicked are therefore no longer wicked when they enter heaven because all their wickedness has been purged. I think you and I and Hitler will be different people when we enter heaven with no selfish inclinations or anything. We have to be perfect to enter heaven and Jesus imputed to us His perfect righteousness as a free gift.

 

You made a comment earlier about how it wouldn't make logical sense for God to forgive all without a commitment to change. Well then I suppose it didn't make logical sense for Jesus to let His persecutors beat Him and spit on Him and curse Him either but that's what He did. He had power to defend Himself and fight them off but it doesn't make logical sense to us that He didn't use that power. It doesn't seem like His persecutors were repentant at all during that time they were beating Him.

 

Jesus took the sin of the world upon Himself. He by Himself purged us of all sins. Anything in us that causes evil is taken away before we enter heaven.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Soccer1986

[Justanaverageguy]

I think in the context of the bible as a whole it makes perfect sense. Actions have consequences. Sins create an energetic "debt" that has to be paid. As you reap so shall you sow. This is the law that was passed down and it is the law of "karma". What you do to another will come back to you and you will have to bear the same or equivalent consequences to those that you gave out to others.

 

Going all the way back to the old testament and Genesis this same law was shown in action. Take the story of Abraham which is one many modern Christians have trouble understanding. Abraham's wife was too old to have children - so he had a child with his servant girl Hagar - a boy called Ishmael. Then his wife at a very old age got pregnant and they had a son - Isaac. Abrahams wife became jealous of the servant girls first born son - who would rightfully be the first heir to Abraham. She convinced Abraham to send the boy and the mother away so they didn't get to share in Isaac's inheritance. So he abandoned them and sent them into the desert alone. Horrible uncaring behavior. Shortly after this God called Abraham and demanded that he sacrifice the second son Isaac who he had with his wife.

 

Why ? Why would god demand such a obscene thing ? Because it is the law of Karma. Abraham abandoned his first son and sent him into the desert. A father abandoning his son. So the energetic wheel turns and the other son must be taken from him to balance this and hand out the same pain he inflicted on Ishmael and his mother. This is paying of the Karmic debt. The message was essentially - your sons death is by your own hand - not mine - you abandoned your first born so now the second which you love will be taken from you.

 

But god showed mercy - When he is about to kill Isaac the lord intercedes and offers a lamb to sacrifice on Isaacs behalf. This is where the whole concept of the "lamb of god" originates. An innocent being - a sheep - who steps in to pay the karmic debt of another on their behalf. This is so we personally do not have to bear the consequences. This is what forgiving a debt means - the debt does not magically dissapear - God doesn't wave a magic wand - rather it means someone else takes the debt on as their own and agrees to pay it for you.

 

Thus why Jesus is referred to as "The lamb of God". He plays the exact same role as the sheep in the story of Isaac. Jesus is the one who voluntarily offers to pay the Karmic debt of those he saves - there by taking away the consequences of the sins and allowing eternal life. In order to do this though - only death pays for life. He was required to be tortured and killed. That's why it was necessary that he go through that ordeal - to pay the debt that had accumulated and accumulates still.

 

This is the important part to understand. It is not a free pass - it comes at a price. Every sin adds to the debt that must be paid. Every wrong action an individual commits - increases the debt that they personally owe and which must be answered for. There is only so much he is willing to pay for before he looks and says - he has not shown contrition and is not willing to change his ways and do good. I am foreclosing on this loan which continues to grow larger every passing day.

 

You're asking someone else to pay for every wrong action you perform - it is not a free line of credit - Jesus attached very specific terms and conditions to his willingness to pay for peoples debt.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[umirano]

It seems that it's possible to rewire your brain so to speak.

But can you initiate that by your own free will?

 

Experiments where people are monitored by brain imaging while they have to make choices (like lifting the right hand vs lifting the left hand) show that decisions are taken in the brain before people became aware of the decision. The subjects were instructed to point out the position of a dot that constantly ran along a circle on a screen in front of them as soon as they 'decided'. The brain imaging showed that the decision was taken up to 5 seconds before the subject became aware of it.

 

For practical purposes we can say we 'have' free will. More accurately we feel free to decide. In reality, there is no good explanation where we would actually freely author our thoughts. Did you really have a choice to read my response? To reply?

[Justanaverageguy]

Experiments where people are monitored by brain imaging while they have to make choices (like lifting the right hand vs lifting the left hand) show that decisions are taken in the brain before people became aware of the decision. The subjects were instructed to point out the position of a dot that constantly ran along a circle on a screen in front of them as soon as they 'decided'. The brain imaging showed that the decision was taken up to 5 seconds before the subject became aware of it.

 

For practical purposes we can say we 'have' free will. More accurately we feel free to decide. In reality, there is no good explanation where we would actually freely author our thoughts. Did you really have a choice to read my response? To reply?

 

I would say this overlooking how we understand the brain works and the fact it has both conscious - and subconscious layers. From all the literature I have read the brain imaging really does not show "when they make a choice". These scans simply show when the brain begins processing data related to the final choice. There is a great deal of subconscious processing that occurs before any choice is made. Its a waste of time and energy to put these at the fully conscious layer - we wouldn't be able to operate as humans so these are optimized and function below conscious thought at much higher speeds then conscious thoughts allow.

 

Take pulling out into traffic - your brain is analyzing a myriad of variables without you needing to consciously do so. It evaluates the speed of oncoming traffic, the distance they are away, pedestrians, street signs etc. Your not actively calculating those variables. The brain's subconscious evaluates the right time for you to pull out automatically - and signals this up to top level conscious layer - not as a verbal command "you must pull out now" - but as a feeling - as an emotion.

 

That's how the subconscious processing layer communicates complex information to the top layer consciousness. You feel it. But you don't always have to act. The same happens in poker - players get a "feeling" for the right move based on the behavior of other players. They aren't fully aware of all the subtle calculations, clues, body language processing that goes into the decision - they just get a feeling for it. Also known as a "gut feeling". So yes the processing for a decision is definitely happening well before we make the final conscious choice. And if your looking at brain scans you can correlate these calculations to the final decision if your doing very simplified binary tests like raising a hand. That however doesn't mean the conscious thinking layer plays no part in the final decision. The subconscious is the calculator - the conscious is the overriding controller and decision maker - it still has the ability to direct things.

 

So while I would agree that the decision making process and the calculations that go into it start well before we make the final conscious choice - that does not show that we don't have the ability to make a conscious choice.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[BC1980]

But can you initiate that by your own free will?

 

Experiments where people are monitored by brain imaging while they have to make choices (like lifting the right hand vs lifting the left hand) show that decisions are taken in the brain before people became aware of the decision. The subjects were instructed to point out the position of a dot that constantly ran along a circle on a screen in front of them as soon as they 'decided'. The brain imaging showed that the decision was taken up to 5 seconds before the subject became aware of it.

 

For practical purposes we can say we 'have' free will. More accurately we feel free to decide. In reality, there is no good explanation where we would actually freely author our thoughts. Did you really have a choice to read my response? To reply?

 

That's fascinating and scary. It's scary to think we are just robots that don't really exert control over our actions.

[knabe]

I would say this overlooking how we understand the brain works and the fact it has both conscious - and subconscious layers.

 

Yes. In addition, any scientist or practitioner worth their salt would reiterate that we probably (maybe) understand about 10% of anything about how the brain works. It's similar to the study of the oceans in that we have barely scratched the surface.

 

To speak authoritatively and absolutely about what the brain can or cannot do is to display one's ignorance.

 

If one looks at the Bible itself (whether you believe it or not), it tends to balance itself. Don't judge...but reprove each other. Sin is bad....but there is forgiveness and love. And my favorite: don't answer a fool according to his folly...answer a fool according to his folly

 

So I would posit that this is not an either/or equation. That there is a balance of free will and God's omniscience. For example, I knew my children very well. I knew how they would react or act in certain situations because I KNEW them. But I did not MAKE them react that way as if they were robots. yes, someone will argue nurture....but if you have ever actually HAD kids, you know that nurture is no guarantee of anything.