Sustained changes in the thinking and world view of the cheater in reconciliation

October 10, 2017

Somebody recommended this article in a thread recently: "The Infidelity Megafecta"

I don't know about all the scenarios for cheating discussed in the article, but you do have to read it to understand how the writer gets to this conclusion:

"Cheating is fundamentally an issue of ethics. That a cheater chooses to behave in abusive and manipulative ways is clear evidence that they are prepared to put ethical behavior aside in order to satisfy their own desires. That is sufficient reason to make any notion of reconciliation contingent on clear, observable and sustained change in the cheater’s thinking and world view."

The article deals with a lot of things we talk about in this forum but goes beyond in some areas, for example, the cheater's "narrative" to explain his motives and issues. Having the profile of a cheater itself means lying and manipulating were not just temporary behaviors taken on to cover up the affair. He suggests that whatever explanation or insight they convey, they're still spinning the story for a certain effect.

This section really jolted me because it described my husband to a T. He did - does - all these things to get sympathy. Most of it I can see through but a lifelong practice is difficult to stay ahead of. What's most disturbing is realizing that it has a life of its own and the cheater himself doesn't know the difference between his narrative and the truth.

It's something I'd been thinking about. I thought it was obvious that the promised changes after dday meant a complete overhaul, i.e., "thinking and world view," especially since this was a case of multiple confessions, multiple affairs. But over time I've come to realize that really his goal was to get past my need to talk about it. It's also clear to me that the only change he felt he owed me was not to have close relationships with other women.

He often cuts me off with "How do you know?" meaning I can't know what he's understood. My response is always, "Then why don't I?" meaning why would he keep it to himself and why don't I see it. But this article has me really, really pessimistic that any change could ever be deep or long-lasting without working with a really good, smart, experienced psychologist.

So I'm realizing (not for the first time - just in a new way) that he's really, REALLY fked up. I guess it's what you call a personality disorder. I started thinking about my three children and realize that my sons have none of his tendencies, but both of them had 2-3 years of therapy with an amazing psychologist. One of them did have a tendency to lie and slip under the radar, but now seems to be living an open and ethical life. He pointed out to me recently, however, that my daughter did not have therapy for that long or as a mature adult. (I'm a great believer in therapy.) We were discussing her manipulative tendencies with others and her thinking of entitlement. Maybe it is genetic.

I would really like to know if others have this experience with their WS. I would imagine their are many possible scenarios. It's almost better that my husband is guarded and closed because I don't think we could stay together if I knew everything he is thinking. As it is, he often adjusts what he says ever so slightly if I point something out and knows he can't manipulate me. He never could. That's why he found other women he could. At least now he's not doing that. That's not saying much.

October 10, 2017

Therapy changed my wh completely. By the time the 4th one told him that his mother was toxic and poisoning his life, he opened his eyes, truly. Without the hard work he put in, I would have left. Heck, had he refused to accept any responsibility for his affair at all, he would have left with the mow, and with applause from his mother, even though it was not a love affair. He knows that running from a problem to the next shiny object was what he was taught - but that it’s destructive. Landing in one place and taking a good hard look at yourself makes for a more fulfilling life. Living authentically and honestly is more enjoyable. Hiding who you are is exhausting, lying is exhausting, always being “on” impresses absolutely no one of value.

He thought he was special, mom always told him so. So when he began failing in his businesses and the mow blew sunshine up his backside, he believed she said it because he was special. In fact, he was a mark to the mow, as he had always been to his mom. A means to an end. I have to stress that he doesn’t blame the mow, he blames himself for choosing to fall for her game. He told himself that he was running the game. But of course there was familiarity in how she treated him, and that felt like understanding and support.

Hence what he learned: when there’s a game, there’s always a loser. In a loving family, everyone should buoy everyone up - everyone should win. It’s the opposite of how he was raised. Triangles, manipulation, lies, lack of empathy don’t make you a winner at all. Or happy. It’s all a diversion to not look at yourself.

We are 3 yrs out from dday and 4 yrs since he ended his 6-8 month affair. He’s a different person than he was right before he started the affair and continues his therapy. But it has been anything but linear, and even today, the mow reaches out. But it’s not disruptive to the marriage, it’s just cringy and odd.

October 10, 2017

If I was to cheat?

It would be because she was attractive, willing

to flirt with me, for the fun of a new experience.

All that article for me was just psycho babble.

With a lot of self justification thrown in for bad

behavior.

You see everyone sees an attractive person and

the thought is it would be nice to get intimate with

them.

Though many do not because they would not want

their spouse doing the same. So they enjoy the view.

Admit the attraction and then move on.

Those that take action are just selfish. That want it

all and will take all they can. Though to prove how

selfish they are they will partake yet will be upset

and mad at their BS when the BS returns the same

behavior.

It is a well known fact that many a WS cannot forgive

their BS when their BS has a RA.

October 10, 2017

If I was to cheat?

It would be because she was attractive, willing
to flirt with me, for the fun of a new experience.

All that article for me was just psycho babble.
With a lot of self justification thrown in for bad
behavior.

You see everyone sees an attractive person and
the thought is it would be nice to get intimate with
them.

Though many do not because they would not want
their spouse doing the same. So they enjoy the view.
Admit the attraction and then move on.

Those that take action are just selfish. That want it
all and will take all they can. Though to prove how
selfish they are they will partake yet will be upset
and mad at their BS when the BS returns the same
behavior.

It is a well known fact that many a WS cannot forgive
their BS when their BS has a RA.

I don't keep away from affairs because I don't want my spouse to cheat on me. I don't cheat because to me, it's morally and ethically the wrong thing to do.

The article does make some good points about accountability. If someone ( say a ws) blames external factors for their behavior, they can't change them. This is why a ws ( or , if you are the ow/om) who can't accept responsibility for his or her actions and blames them on someone else, is a bad bet for a relationship partner.

October 10, 2017

I think this applies to a subset of cheaters. Long term, multiple cheating. The person that has as Short term , or ONS, I do not think would have to undergo such a change, but only a understanding on how this could have happened.

In your husbands case, Merrmeade, he had multiple, and many affairs. Compare this to the ONS, person, and this course would not fit. He is messed up, and something deep inside is broken. A complete change is needed, if he is to change. Sadly, and I am including myself, any change, and especially, change like this is hard, and does not happen often. You can compare it to alcoholism, you really need to touch bottom to change, and then most can not change.

For yourself, I think you need to take things as they come, and work on what is best in the here and now. You husband is what he is, and I do not see him changing much going forward. Is this enough for reconciliation, and a good life and marriage? Look, you have a steeper hill to clime, then many here. It is a function of what and who your husband is, and of course yourself. It is much easier to forgive, and understand , a ONS, or other betrayal, then what is a life time of betrayal. Keep this is mind. It is not impossible, but you will need to decide if this is working for you. If he is doing all he is capable of doing, I think this may be the only thing you can expect from him. What do you think?

I sense lately, you are not satisfied with your marriage, in that you have what you have, but wish it could be better. How to go about this is the rub. I know from my life the only thing you can have control over is yourself, and how you react to life and the situation you find yourself in. The question is, what do you do, to change this?

I wish you luck.........

October 10, 2017

So I'm realizing (not for the first time - just in a new way) that he's really, REALLY fked up. I guess it's what you call a personality disorder.

It took me a long time to believe this because I thought I really knew my WS. When I 'forced' him into counseling after D-day 1 the counselor spoke with me separately about my WS's strong NPD tendencies.

Now I see his manipulating from a mile away, makes things harder for him and easier for me to ignore. Personality disorders are hard and I worry for my kids if they may have it too.

October 10, 2017

It took me a long time to believe this because I thought I really knew my WS. When I 'forced' him into counseling after D-day 1 the counselor spoke with me separately about my WS's strong NPD tendencies.

Now I see his manipulating from a mile away, makes things harder for him and easier for me to ignore. Personality disorders are hard and I worry for my kids if they may have it too .

This keeps me up at night.

October 10, 2017

It took me a long time to believe this because I thought I really knew my WS. When I 'forced' him into counseling after D-day 1 the counselor spoke with me separately about my WS's strong NPD tendencies.

Now I see his manipulating from a mile away, makes things harder for him and easier for me to ignore. Personality disorders are hard and I worry for my kids if they may have it too.

so I'm wondering if the affairs that your WH and starswillshine's had were ONS, LTA or multiple. Or, what is the profile of the cheater with the characteristics described in the article? And I'm wondering how many are like this.

As far as the question goes about the children turning out like that is concerned, I think it's probably like a predisposition to any disease. They can hold it off by living a healthy lifestyle and surrounding themselves with healthy people unless and until unavoidable circumstances converge favorable to developing that profile.

October 10, 2017

so I'm wondering if the affairs that your WH and starswillshine's had were ONS, LTA or multiple. Or, what is the profile of the cheater with the characteristics described in the article? And I'm wondering how many are like this.

As far as the question goes about the children turning out like that is concerned, I think it's probably like a predisposition to any disease. They can hold it off by living a healthy lifestyle and surrounding themselves with healthy people unless and until unavoidable circumstances converge favorable to developing that profile.

My husband had one for sure LTA that was long distance. So they didn't see each other often. I believe there were a few others but they would have been very casual. Just when in their town, hook up. But he won't admit anything.

October 11, 2017

I cheated on my ex wife. It kills me to even type that. She did not deserve it and am horribly sorry.

It did teach me two things:

1. I needed to get out of my marriage. I wasn’t happy.

2. I need to be more honest with myself. The cheating never would have happened had I been.

No matter what it never happens again. I am a better person than that.

October 11, 2017

I cheated on my ex wife. It kills me to even type that. She did not deserve it and am horribly sorry.

It did teach me two things:

1. I needed to get out of my marriage. I wasn’t happy.
2. I need to be more honest with myself. The cheating never would have happened had I been.

No matter what it never happens again. I am a better person than that.

Thank you for your post. You sound straightforward and honest with yourself now. Did you see a therapist?

October 11, 2017

I think this applies to a subset of cheaters. Long term, multiple cheating.
The person that has as Short term , or ONS, I do not think would have to undergo such a change, but only a understanding on how this could have happened.

I do not necessarily believe that to be true.

The person engaging in NSA sex, short term flings, a ONS, a risky hook up may be far more "mixed up" than a person getting attached to a co-worker and forming a relationship with them, albeit extra marital.

There is a tendency to ignore or minimise such "minor" transgressions, when the fact they exist at all, may signify some very deep issues indeed.

October 11, 2017

I do not necessarily believe that to be true.
The person engaging in NSA sex, short term flings, a ONS, a risky hook up may be far more "mixed up" than a person getting attached to a co-worker and forming a relationship with them, albeit extra marital.
There is a tendency to ignore or minimise such "minor" transgressions, when the fact they exist at all, may signify some very deep issues indeed.

I read his post as describing a person who has ONE ONS in a moment of weakness, not a string of them. Perhaps I misunderstood.

Cheating is always wrong, but I do think there is a difference between someone who makes that horrible choice one time and makes amends and someone who is a serial or long term cheater who makes deception and betrayal a lifestyle.

October 11, 2017

I do not necessarily believe that to be true.
The person engaging in NSA sex, short term flings, a ONS, a risky hook up may be far more "mixed up" than a person getting attached to a co-worker and forming a relationship with them, albeit extra marital.
There is a tendency to ignore or minimise such "minor" transgressions, when the fact they exist at all, may signify some very deep issues indeed.

elaine567,

I will still defend my original thought. I think, my opinion is, that everyone can have a aberration, and not be fundamentally bad or off their rocker. A one time slip, is not a life long term of cheating and lying. Yes, can show some deep issues, but it can be the exception not the rule. The person who cheats as the "rule" will need deep fundamental change to stop. The person with a ONCE ONS, needs to understand why they allowed themselves to engage in this behaovor, and then not let themselves go there again.

IE, many WS with a ONS, will never cheat again, as they are now on the look out for how it happened, and work to not let it happen again. Odds are they are never going to stray again. The serial cheater, is always looking for the next ONS or relationship. Changeling that behaovor takes a lot of doing.

Now , how some WS got to their ONS, well that can show many issues and problems, so I do agree with you on on that score. I just do not think it is on the same level and complexity as a a serial cheater.

I wish you luck........

October 11, 2017

so I'm wondering if the affairs that your WH and starswillshine's had were ONS, LTA or multiple. Or, what is the profile of the cheater with the characteristics described in the article? And I'm wondering how many are like this.

As far as the question goes about the children turning out like that is concerned, I think it's probably like a predisposition to any disease. They can hold it off by living a healthy lifestyle and surrounding themselves with healthy people unless and until unavoidable circumstances converge favorable to developing that profile.

I believe my WS has had multiple affairs, but I have only gotten solid proof on the last A which lasted 3 years.

October 11, 2017

I believe my WS has had multiple affairs, but I have only gotten solid proof on the last A which lasted 3 years.

So do you feel the article's describes your husband then (after dday)? And has he changed significantly?

October 12, 2017

Thank you for your post. You sound straightforward and honest with yourself now. Did you see a therapist?

No. It was just honest assessment of my abhorrent behavior.

My first marriage ended with my ex cheating. It was awful. But it also taught me that no matter what it can happen. I am grateful for that lesson every day.

I never want to put some one in that position, yet I did. What a horrible realization that I became what I despised.

I really love my current so and everyday the fact that I ended in a better place is apparent.

Not all cheaters are serial. Not all need therapy. Some cheaters are just really bad decision makers at the wrong time. I usually look at people and see if they learn from their mistakes. I feel I did. I would not want to be with someone who is not capable of that.

October 12, 2017

So do you feel the article's describes your husband then (after dday)? And has he changed significantly?

Yes this article perfectly describes him. Funny how we don't see these things until later either that or he hid them well. My family noticed early on and I didn't want to believe them. Same with a good friend of mine. I didn't believe what everyone was telling me until False R and then I couldn't hide from it anymore.

In some ways he has changed significantly, his personality disorder has not and that is something entirely different. I feel I am always on guard when it pertains to that. He manipulates in other ways that are not infidelity related. I don't expect to have what I was hoping for because it doesn't exist in him. He is not capable.

October 12, 2017

Yes this article perfectly describes him. Funny how we don't see these things until later either that or he hid them well. My family noticed early on and I didn't want to believe them. Same with a good friend of mine. I didn't believe what everyone was telling me until False R and then I couldn't hide from it anymore.

In some ways he has changed significantly, his personality disorder has not and that is something entirely different. I feel I am always on guard when it pertains to that. He manipulates in other ways that are not infidelity related. I don't expect to have what I was hoping for because it doesn't exist in him. He is not capable.

I could have written this.

And because of it, we are separating. Heartbreaking because I want to believe in the good in him. But the bad has burned me and hurt me so bad. I wish I could just undo all the memories of the bad. I wish I wouldn't have been exposed. Because our life was beautiful before. But such manipulation. Most of it was.

October 13, 2017

No. It was just honest assessment of my abhorrent behavior.

My first marriage ended with my ex cheating. It was awful. But it also taught me that no matter what it can happen. I am grateful for that lesson every day.

I never want to put some one in that position, yet I did. What a horrible realization that I became what I despised.

I really love my current so and everyday the fact that I ended in a better place is apparent.

Not all cheaters are serial. Not all need therapy. Some cheaters are just really bad decision makers at the wrong time. I usually look at people and see if they learn from their mistakes. I feel I did. I would not want to be with someone who is not capable of that.

While I appreciate the personal honesty - and no offense intended - I just want to clarify that I think that being a WS is probably the last thing that would inform you about other WS behavior. The BS is the expert here.

October 14, 2017

While I appreciate the personal honesty - and no offense intended - I just want to clarify that I think that being a WS is probably the last thing that would inform you about other WS behavior. The BS is the expert here.

Could you explain this further please?

Why would a ws not know the mindset of another ws better than a bs?

If a person has never cheated... how can they be an expert at understanding a cheaters mindset any better than a cheater would?

And if a person is a mad hatter.. why wouldn't they have a much better insight?

October 14, 2017

I read the article with interest.

Issues of resentment and control were very much at the heart of my H’s A. He spent a good deal of time in IC toward the latter days of the A exploring that, and why he had been willing to compromise his ethics in such a way rather than just throwing her out. It was quite eye-opening for him - especially when he asked his family and his long-term friends for feedback and saw himself through their eyes.

It does sound as though your H might not have the reserves he needs to draw on to make the kinds of changes he needs to make.

October 14, 2017

Could you explain this further please?

Why would a ws not know the mindset of another ws better than a bs?

If a person has never cheated... how can they be an expert at understanding a cheaters mindset any better than a cheater would?

And if a person is a mad hatter.. why wouldn't they have a much better insight?

Well, the part of the article that I was most interested in was that "any notion of reconciliation contingent on clear, observable and sustained change in the cheater’s thinking and world view." So my question was whether the BS in reconciliation sees these important changes in the cheater's "thinking and world view." The exWS is not lying, manipulating, avoiding, denying—i.e., all those destructive behaviors that made cheating possible—in other areas of life. You have to show change. Someone has to see it. The WS may think s/he has changed just because he's being faithful. The same behavior can be there in other areas of life.

Assuming that during the cheating, the behavior - not just the adultery - was not consistent with the cheater's professed values, then afterward, the cheater should develop the self-awareness and honesty with himself to recognize when his behavior is, well, wrong. And if he does, the BS and others will see that.

I guess this assumes that the BS also becomes more aware and honest about the spouse's behavior. For myself, I wasn't aware of his inconsistencies before discovering the infidelity nor honest with myself. I ignored and stayed confused. Now, I can see how he changes reality to suit his interests. I can see the inconsistencies in behavior with who he thinks he is.

Someone has to see change.

October 14, 2017

Hi Folks, I have a question for the BS here who, although now well aware of their WS 's flawed characteristics, are still sticking with them? It seems to me that that fact will eat at you and poison your mind slowly, like a cancer which takes it's time but nevertheless makes inexorable progress till it envelops one completely. Quite frankly, I am neither a WS nor a BS and so maybe I am completely unqualified to be even participating here. However, I have always maintained that I am an observer whose perspective can be completely objective because both WS and BS will be subjective in their perspectives having been perpetrators or victims. I also understand that sometimes in real life divorcing because of infidelity may not be practical. In such cases I think the BS has to swallow his or her pride and just suck up the hurt and betrayal and carry on with life as best he or she can. There is also the situation where the WS is completely remorseful and is prepared to go through hell or high water to save a marriage and to make it right for their BS. I believe that such cases are the only true ones where a genuine reconciliation can occur. Case in point is that of Mr. and Mrs John Adams. I think it is also true in the case of DKT3 and lovinDKT3.

When I think of repeat cheaters I am reminded of a serial killer or fraudster. I think every time you commit a murder or defraud some one it becomes a wee bit easier the next time and so it goes on till it is almost second nature. The first time is the only time when a person faces a difficult time and has to wrestle with his conscience( if he has one). I also think that there may be genetic and/or psychological reasons as to why someone cheats(or murders or steals). A cheater is always able to rationalize his or her reasons for cheating which may appear flimsy to an outsider looking at it logically, but for him or her those reasons make eminent sense. They cannot think any other way. It is like a computer which has been programmed the wrong way. It will always give out a false result but for the computer it is doing the right thing. At any rate I think this article has generated a discussion which leads me to conclude that for those BS who stayed on but are not really happy deep down, that they are still analyzing the reasons for their WS's actions and trying to make some sense of the roller coaster ride they were put on against their wishes. To all of them I offer my best wishes and hope that at some time in the future they find peace!

October 15, 2017

It does sound as though your H might not have the reserves he needs to draw on to make the kinds of changes he needs to make.

I think you're right.

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