Why dating experience matters

[BaileyB]

Not bad advice. A guy once told me his way of getting girls to say "yes."

 

It was simple:

 

"Make her laugh and tell her she's pretty."

 

That's about all it takes... Make her feel good about herself, and make her feel good about being with you...

[Shanex]

That's about all it takes... Make her feel good about herself, and make her feel good about being with you...

 

That's sufficient most of the time. Not a hard thing to do, dating isn't as hard as we read here all the time.

[Shanex]

In a couple points:

 

A man should't:

 

-Have a criminal record

-Be insane

-Do hard drugs

-Be an alcoholic

-Being temporarily unemployed is fine, being chronically unemployed is a red flag.

 

But a man should:

 

-Be fun to hang out with

-Be kind, agreable

-Have his stuff together, past 30 at least (job, car, place).

-Intelligent (not a Mensa IQ but not a complete fool either.)

 

It's not that hard, gentlemen!

[Spring23]

In a couple points:

 

A man should't:

 

-Have a criminal record

-Be insane

-Do hard drugs

-Be an alcoholic

-Being temporarily unemployed is fine, being chronically unemployed is a red flag.

 

But a man should:

 

-Be fun to hang out with

-Be kind, agreable

-Have his stuff together, past 30 at least (job, car, place).

-Intelligent (not a Mensa IQ but not a complete fool either.)

 

It's not that hard, gentlemen!

 

 

And you CAN be a little insane...y'know, functioning insane.

[Imajerk17]

If the OP is very inexperienced with women or the dating scene in general, the best way for me to become bold, patient, listening to what women likes or want is having a number of ladies friends in my younger years.

 

I was very close to many girls then, nothing ever happened sexually, some 'friendzoned' me but I stay and learned about women's psychology, their occasional mood swings, how to handle them, being their friend as a dude is a great way to be confident with women later.

 

Now about escorts, nah, I wouldn't recommend it in the case of Z, because it was aptly pointed out that handing her $200 and have sex or become a regular hoping to become her boyfriend work 1 out of 10000.

 

Note that I am pro-prostituion but not in the case of OP, he needs to have some social circles and meet some ladies friends, you learn a lot hanging out with them and it makes you a better boyfriend in the end.

 

Good luck Z, hope you eventually find what you're looking for.

 

Great post. Here on these forums, "The Friend Zone" sounds like this awful zone that guys w no game are burnished to. Guys here insist upon staying out of it at no cost. I don't quite agree. See, if you are *really friends* with a woman, even a woman who 'doesn't see you that way', you can learn so much, as Shanex described.

[normal person]

What followed was small talk and nothing happened at all because what was I supposed to do?

 

Probably not "nothing." What were you expecting to have to do? What did you try? What did you learn from it? What will you do differently next time?

 

She could clearly see I was inexperienced and remarked as much and then the new famous phrase "I don't thing we will work sexually, you aren't dominating", well how could I be when I have no experience.

 

And how will you ever get experience if you don't try to get it? It sounds like you had a golden opportunity to get some, and you just didn't act on it, citing inexperience as an excuse not to get experience. I would applaud you if you actually made an attempt, even if it was misguided and she got up and left, and you learned what not to do. But you didn't do that (at least hopefully next time you learn not do "nothing" -- although I assume you already knew that). You didn't read the context clues. She came back to your place, obviously she's comfortable enough with you that she felt safe. Obviously she was aware of and open to the possibility of something quasi-romantic or sexual happening. It was your house, you are a grown man, she was probably waiting for you to make some kind of an effort to move forward in some way, and you just... didn't. This girl sounds like she's a little out there, but there is a bit of wisdom in her: The big problem was not that you weren't dominant, but you didn't take the most base level of action. Were you expecting her to move things forward? You're a man. It's your house. She's on foreign ground and probably a little wary. It's your responsibility to make her comfortable, and if so desired, move things in the direction you want them to go in if she's not being aggressive and obvious about what she wants (some girls will be, but if they're not, they're expecting you to).

 

 

Answer me this: how are you expecting to ever gain experience if you don't at least try and get it when you have the golden opportunity? Every person on Earth at one point had no experience. Somehow, they got it. How do you think that happened? People leaning in for their first kiss don't stop and say "Wait! I've never done this before, therefore I can't do it!" If that was the case, no one ever would have ever kissed. Everyone has sex for the first time at some point. Some people are both virgins when it happens. They don't have experience. They do it anyways. The only way to get experience, or to get better at things, is to actually try and do them. As I've said in numerous other threads of yours, you need to take action and get things for yourself rather than expecting things to just be handed to you. You would not have gotten that women in your house if you didn't take action and ask her, so bravo. But you need to apply the same principle elsewhere. To move things forward, to gain experience, you need to take action. Not make excuses as to why you can't.

 

The point here is in a dating scenario experience is VITALLY important because had I that experience this entire awkward moment would not have happened and it was VERY awkward.

 

And you could have prevented it from happening in the future by simply trying something -- anything -- rather than saying you're incapable of experiencing anything because you don't have experience, even though you had what sounds like an open invitation to get some.

 

Two hours later she left and that was that, did I feel bad, not really, did I reflect on it, yes I did and realise this inexperience mountain is harder than people acknowledge.

 

It's not as hard as you make it out to be. Next time, try taking action rather than making excuses as to why you can't.

[ZA Dater]

the above posters have hit the escort thing on its head....an escort is a sure thing.....doesnt teach guys how to approach "normal" women...you flash cash you get sex...sure thing....no getting to know the hooker or escort....what matters to her ......what she feels...it isnt important.....

 

it also gives a false sense of worth...havign sexual experience when you have issues of confidence isnt goign to help land a date,,,,.. a hooker really doesnt care in most cases she doesnt plan on dating the guy and her express idea is to keep him coming back to pay.....not date the guy......so eh becomes her regular john.

 

most women dont want to be with guys who paid for it thats fact...its a high risk thing to do ..its a turn off for most women.......doesnt make a guy attrctive if that guy decides to do the right thing and be honest about his sexual experiences.....

 

 

i knew hookers who rorted vulnerable guys with the help of the house of coursebecause they get 40 per cent or around abouts..... out of their enitre bank accounts.....

 

adn then there are the guys who fall for the hooker...the ones who really want to eb ina steady relationship and the sex bonds them to the girl.....most escort houses have specific rules about this type of scenario..its forbidden...you make the guy a regular and take him for what he is got.....you dont see them out of house.not even as a friend..if you get found out....big trouble......

hookign aint the way to build any kind of confidence......doesnt relieve rpessure of loneliness...because the guy goes home to no one...no lasting relationship or even friendship...its a business transaction

the guy needs dating help and confidence and strategies that make him feel more confident...nto sex with a sure thing who takes his money and doesnt give a flying ...fig what happens at the end of the day to him....other than repeat on the cash..when he gets his paycheck..that isnt an ideal scenario to put a guy in who wants a lasting relationship with a loving woman..

 

i fight all the time quite passionately on this board about men seeing hookers because they arent succeeding in dating....and ill repeat..seeing a sure thing....doesnt help.....solve any issues.....other than a quick fix for his penis fluid.......deb

 

Thanks for this post.

 

 

The thing is this, one is sold an idea which is attractive and a large part of me actually likes the idea of going out with someone attractive, even if I have to pay, its to me a price worth paying as opposed to trawling dating sites and finding nothing I really like.

 

 

Take last night for example, I went out and tried to implement the advice of people here, plainly people just were not friendly or I just came off as being odd.

 

 

I agree, find people but you cannot imagine how hard this is for me to find people who are interested in me, nobody is really. To combat this I have constructed a life around helping others in the hope that being selfless might make me attractive, as someone else pointed out here this is totally incorrect and wrong but what I get out of it is some sense of belonging.

 

 

Yes, perhaps this girl was wrong for me and I didn't regret being fobbed off at all but by the same token I am back to where I started and the prospects just seem ever more distant.

 

 

This forum has helped me immensely to feel better but that better has not made me any less lonely. Friends regale me of girls they picked up but few regale me of dates they went on. Its so easy for them, one tells me he gets rejected all the time, the reality is he doesn't know what rejection is because 1 and 10 isn't rejection.

 

 

Suppose I went out and tried to do what he does, the result wouldn't be much different from this girl because the fundamentals of me are the same, I don't have the physical attractive part or the charm. FYI, I am 5.9, blond and slim.

 

 

Would experience help, probably not in hindsight and here you are probably right, the fundamentals would simply be the same I would need to continue paying for it.

 

 

I am trying to change the fundamentals but the fact remains I have no game, no number of books, videos help that, I fundamentally don't understand how its supposed to work because nobody understands why at 33 I haven't had any relationship experience at all. As far as red flags go they don't come any bigger than that.

[ZA Dater]

Quite frankly, I doubt that it truly "unblocks" him. He is paying for sex, and that dynamic is very different than getting to know, or romantically pursuing a woman. The actual act of sex is very mundane in many ways, and I highly doubt that it is the hangup, maybe in the OP's mind it is.

 

But the problem is that he is not getting to that point. I have to think back, long back, I had female friends I could go clubbing or go to the movies with. I had male friends I could learn from. It's that social context that is missing as long as he arranges OLD dates or goes to an escort.

 

And yes, paying for an escort in itself bring a whole number of other issues with it.

 

I cannot disagree with this at all. I am trying hard to change this but its just always the same, I cannot pretend to enjoy things I don't enjoy because millions of other do enjoy or convincingly pretend to enjoy those things.

 

 

Yes, I could go out with a friend who has ONS often with girls , he claims to get rejected often, tells me today "I get rejected often but I still try", that's the thing I don't want a ONS with someone I hardly know.

 

 

Experience is seen easily, be in charm be it flirting and to those who say fake it, I say its pretty much impossible if you are at the level I am where none of those things come naturally.

[CptInsano]

[...]

Experience is seen easily, be in charm be it flirting and to those who say fake it, I say its pretty much impossible if you are at the level I am where none of those things come naturally.

 

I know you're frustrated, and it makes sense that going out only frustrates you further. Simply going to a club expecting new results from the same behavior doesn't make sense.

 

I would honestly start with just enjoying being around women. I know, this sounds like telling somebody who is starving to go to a restaurant and not eat, but what people want is to have fun and each others company. There are very few specific things you need to do, as long as you are easygoing and enthusiastic at the same time.

 

Some people are able to flirt naturally, but I am also somebody who had to learn it because I grew up mainly around men. And I had to learn it at a painfully slow pace, and I misread women along the way, realizing at the end that I missed clear signs of interest. But I was eventually able to just enjoy a woman's company, going out, having a good time. And that made it click.

 

Just out of curiosity, do you enjoy the OLD dates that you've had so far? I mean, regardless of the outcome, did you enjoy spending time with a woman?

Edited April 30, 2017 by CptInsano

[Titanll]

Regardless of experience or age. There is one thing I notice with almost every similar forum post and that is a negative, and defeatist attitude. It's quite possible there is a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

These threads are rampant with this attitude. I picture Woody Allen trying to to date...unattractive, socially awkward and wondering why he can't get a date with an attractive and socially adept woman.

 

You have no dating experience at 33? Is there a difference between dating experience and life experience? You've been alive for 33 years, what have you learned? Do you have a strange personality? Are you attractive?

 

You don't have dating experience but you know it matters? You have one date dates. No one wants date two and this is simply because you lack experience dating?

[BaileyB]

I appreciate your frustration - it is definitely hard to meet people and get a date with someone you like... for both men and women.

 

Keep in perspective, I would say that the two things you are doing were the hardest things to do - OLD and approaching random strangers, trying to initiate a conversation and build a relationship from nothing... Very hard to do and more often than not, unsuccessful when you are looking for a long term relationship.

 

It is important to do things you enjoy and meet people organically... it always helps when you have a shared interest. And, you do literally just have to practice and develop the skills to meet and talk with people. Think about getting to know people, developing friendships, building relationships...

 

Relationships evolve... they are built over time, through shared conversations and experiences. You have the end goal in your mind, and what you need to practice is the process of starting and growing a relationship...

[ZA Dater]

I know you're frustrated, and it makes sense that going out only frustrates you further. Simply going to a club expecting new results from the same behavior doesn't make sense.

 

I would honestly start with just enjoying being around women. I know, this sounds like telling somebody who is starving to go to a restaurant and not eat, but what people want is to have fun and each others company. There are very few specific things you need to do, as long as you are easygoing and enthusiastic at the same time.

 

Some people are able to flirt naturally, but I am also somebody who had to learn it because I grew up mainly around men. And I had to learn it at a painfully slow pace, and I misread women along the way, realizing at the end that I missed clear signs of interest. But I was eventually able to just enjoy a woman's company, going out, having a good time. And that made it click.

 

Just out of curiosity, do you enjoy the OLD dates that you've had so far? I mean, regardless of the outcome, did you enjoy spending time with a woman?

 

For the list part, no the OLD dates never really did it for me at all. I have probably enjoyed trying to learn from people more than I enjoyed those dates. I look at successful people, ladies included and try figure out why. For example a 5 min conversation​ with someone I find interesting and attractive was better than most OLD dates. She won't ever go out with me, not her type but the attention is nice.

 

That's the thing a part of me likes the idea of the impossible.

[Imajerk17]

First of all OP, chin up. You are able to get dates from OLD in the first place. So it's not your looks that's the problem. Second, you actually were able to get a date back to your place, which, even if "nothing happened" after that, meant that you had to be doing some things right during the date.

 

I am not going to get into a discussion about how your "natural" friends seem to attract women so easily nor am I going to try to answer your posts point-by-point. You already got some good actionable advice in the previous page about moving things along physically during the date. How does it suit you?

Edited April 30, 2017 by Imajerk17

[CptInsano]

For the list part, no the OLD dates never really did it for me at all. I have probably enjoyed trying to learn from people more than I enjoyed those dates.

 

You are writing about "enjoying to learn from people". But do you actually enjoy just spending time with these women? If not, you actions may appear very goal-oriented and targeted. Sure, there are certain things you should or shouldn't do, but the key is about becoming comfortable, letting spending time with women become enjoyable.

 

I look at successful people, ladies included and try figure out why. For example a 5 min conversation​ with someone I find interesting and attractive was better than most OLD dates. She won't ever go out with me, not her type but the attention is nice.

 

Are you sure she wouldn't go out with you? Even if it is not a date, but just bar-hopping with friends, you could benefit a lot from it.

[ZA Dater]

You are writing about "enjoying to learn from people". But do you actually enjoy just spending time with these women? If not, you actions may appear very goal-oriented and targeted. Sure, there are certain things you should or shouldn't do, but the key is about becoming comfortable, letting spending time with women become enjoyable.

 

 

 

Are you sure she wouldn't go out with you? Even if it is not a date, but just bar-hopping with friends, you could benefit a lot from it.

 

For better or for worse most of the things I do are goal orientated in some form or another. I simply meet almost no ladies I enjoy spending time with at all but as has been prescribed here before I simply just try and enjoy the time with them even if I don't actually. Not my idea of how to do things but that's what I have been told to do and supposedly everyone else does it so.

 

 

For me to enjoy spending time with someone they need to be overall nice and we need to somehow click, these people aren't found on dating sites in SA.

 

 

You are right though, I cant deny that.

[ZA Dater]

Probably not "nothing." What were you expecting to have to do? What did you try? What did you learn from it? What will you do differently next time?

 

 

 

And how will you ever get experience if you don't try to get it? It sounds like you had a golden opportunity to get some, and you just didn't act on it, citing inexperience as an excuse not to get experience. I would applaud you if you actually made an attempt, even if it was misguided and she got up and left, and you learned what not to do. But you didn't do that (at least hopefully next time you learn not do "nothing" -- although I assume you already knew that). You didn't read the context clues. She came back to your place, obviously she's comfortable enough with you that she felt safe. Obviously she was aware of and open to the possibility of something quasi-romantic or sexual happening. It was your house, you are a grown man, she was probably waiting for you to make some kind of an effort to move forward in some way, and you just... didn't. This girl sounds like she's a little out there, but there is a bit of wisdom in her: The big problem was not that you weren't dominant, but you didn't take the most base level of action. Were you expecting her to move things forward? You're a man. It's your house. She's on foreign ground and probably a little wary. It's your responsibility to make her comfortable, and if so desired, move things in the direction you want them to go in if she's not being aggressive and obvious about what she wants (some girls will be, but if they're not, they're expecting you to).

 

 

Answer me this: how are you expecting to ever gain experience if you don't at least try and get it when you have the golden opportunity? Every person on Earth at one point had no experience. Somehow, they got it. How do you think that happened? People leaning in for their first kiss don't stop and say "Wait! I've never done this before, therefore I can't do it!" If that was the case, no one ever would have ever kissed. Everyone has sex for the first time at some point. Some people are both virgins when it happens. They don't have experience. They do it anyways. The only way to get experience, or to get better at things, is to actually try and do them. As I've said in numerous other threads of yours, you need to take action and get things for yourself rather than expecting things to just be handed to you. You would not have gotten that women in your house if you didn't take action and ask her, so bravo. But you need to apply the same principle elsewhere. To move things forward, to gain experience, you need to take action. Not make excuses as to why you can't.

 

 

 

And you could have prevented it from happening in the future by simply trying something -- anything -- rather than saying you're incapable of experiencing anything because you don't have experience, even though you had what sounds like an open invitation to get some.

 

 

 

It's not as hard as you make it out to be. Next time, try taking action rather than making excuses as to why you can't.

 

Jeepers some praise. I am surprised.

 

 

When all is said and done I don't regret it not moving into the take clothes off stage because I couldn't take it there but also because she wasn't someone I felt universally attracted too or liked in that way.

 

 

Sure, everyone gets experience but I'd like to think they get it with people they like.

 

 

Suppose its my problem I like so few people. Which is ultimately is.

[normal person]

When all is said and done I don't regret it not moving into the take clothes off stage because I couldn't take it there but also because she wasn't someone I felt universally attracted too or liked in that way.

 

So why'd you invite her over to your place?

 

The point here is in a dating scenario experience is VITALLY important because had I that experience this entire awkward moment would not have happened and it was VERY awkward.

 

Explain why it was so "VERY" awkward for you to be in that position if you didn't feel universally attracted to or didn't like her? If anything, that should make things not awkward at all. If you don't like her, you don't care about what she thinks, you act normally. If you didn't like her, what was she doing at your house? If someone doesn't like someone else, they cut losses at first opportunity, not invite them over to invest more time in a doomed relationship.

 

Sure, everyone gets experience but I'd like to think they get it with people they like.

 

You liked her enough to go out with her and then invite her over to your home. She obliged, basically indicating that she's aware that something sexual might happen. Then you decided you didn't like her enough to do anything, even though you curse yourself and the world for not being able to succeed due to "a lack of experience." Is your next thread going to be titled "Why dating experience (exclusively with people you are universally attracted to) matters?"

 

I've dated/kissed/etc with women I wasn't "universally attracted" to at the time. I imagine most people have. None of us have a perfect partner. I did those things because no one is ever going to be absolutely perfect for you and the whole experience is a process of seeing what things you like about a person, what things you don't like, and what are you willing to deal with. She's nice and genteel on the date but her sex drive doesn't match yours? Ok, move on. You both love talking politics over red wine but she prefers someone sexually dominant? Ok, she moves on. Everything is perfect but you find out she's in crippling debt? Ok, move on. Granted, you say you hit your "move on" moment earlier in this scenario, but if that's the case, I'm very confused as to why you invited her over to begin with.

 

I'm not telling you to do things with women you don't want to do, or waste anyone's time, but maybe consider the fact that your perfect person is going to be very hard to come by and if you want of this "experience," you might have to give a few people the benefit of the doubt.

[ZA Dater]

So why'd you invite her over to your place?

 

 

 

Explain why it was so "VERY" awkward for you to be in that position if you didn't feel universally attracted to or didn't like her? If anything, that should make things not awkward at all. If you don't like her, you don't care about what she thinks, you act normally. If you didn't like her, what was she doing at your house? If someone doesn't like someone else, they cut losses at first opportunity, not invite them over to invest more time in a doomed relationship.

 

 

 

You liked her enough to go out with her and then invite her over to your home. She obliged, basically indicating that she's aware that something sexual might happen. Then you decided you didn't like her enough to do anything, even though you curse yourself and the world for not being able to succeed due to "a lack of experience." Is your next thread going to be titled "Why dating experience (exclusively with people you are universally attracted to) matters?"

 

I've dated/kissed/etc with women I wasn't "universally attracted" to at the time. I imagine most people have. None of us have a perfect partner. I did those things because no one is ever going to be absolutely perfect for you and the whole experience is a process of seeing what things you like about a person, what things you don't like, and what are you willing to deal with. She's nice and genteel on the date but her sex drive doesn't match yours? Ok, move on. You both love talking politics over red wine but she prefers someone sexually dominant? Ok, she moves on. Everything is perfect but you find out she's in crippling debt? Ok, move on. Granted, you say you hit your "move on" moment earlier in this scenario, but if that's the case, I'm very confused as to why you invited her over to begin with.

 

I'm not telling you to do things with women you don't want to do, or waste anyone's time, but maybe consider the fact that your perfect person is going to be very hard to come by and if you want of this "experience," you might have to give a few people the benefit of the doubt.

 

Why I invited her over? Simply to try and push things further than I have been able to before, call it odd but the vibe I got from here at my place was very different to the vibe I got when I was out with her.

 

 

If anything all this has taught me is I do need to find someone I universally like a lot more than her and say what you want perhaps I have learnt to rather simply wait for someone I like than try to force myself to like someone I don't wholly like. Of course the proviso is when someone I do like a lot comes along they wont like me enough anyway so we get back onto the round about of dating BS.

 

 

I actually hit move on far later in this scenario but again I am not exactly spoilt with choice I so I decided she was ok enough to ask back, once I got her back I realised she wasn't my cup of tea at all, especially when she started with this dominant this and dominant that.

 

 

Sure, she came back, great, sure I asked her, great but really how much of a win was this?

[elaine567]

The thing is that when young and inexperienced in life, people tend to mix with, hang about with, date and even sleep with people they may not actually "like" that much.

People that on hindsight ticked few boxes and people who our mature adult selves would not want to get involved with.

We muddle through and with our own experiences and that of our peers, we come out the other end with a clearer idea of who we are and what we need.

 

Unfortunately you bypassed all that "education" and now as a mature adult you need to get that experience, but your mature adult brain is discounting all and sundry as very few match up to your expectations.

You now need a serious gf or a wife, not an "experiment".

I get it.

 

BUT a short time ago, I could never have imagined you taking the step to ask a girl back to your place, so you have come a long way.

Keep going.

[gaius]

It's not experience you need but desire. I didn't have an epic amount of experience when I met my girlfriend but I craved to touch her, kiss her and make love to her. So when the opportunity for each of those opened up I made it happen. Didn't miss a beat. Really not that complicated.

 

Maybe she just wasn't for you, which can happen. But since you've been having these chronic dating problems its more likely you have some deeper issues you need to address and get over. Or you're gay.

[GunslingerRoland]

You invited her back to your place (you may think you tricked her with the view, but she wasn't born yesterday) yet you weren't ready to make the move you thought you were.

 

This woman clearly wants a dominant man, I don't sense that is your personality. Going on 5 or 100 dates or sleeping with X number of women whether they are escorts, or women you've met through other means isn't going to magically change your personality type.

 

Chalk it up to a bad match, and learn from the mistake you made, that if you're going to make a move, follow through. She was ready to go and you weren't.

[ZA Dater]

The thing is that when young and inexperienced in life, people tend to mix with, hang about with, date and even sleep with people they may not actually "like" that much.

People that on hindsight ticked few boxes and people who our mature adult selves would not want to get involved with.

We muddle through and with our own experiences and that of our peers, we come out the other end with a clearer idea of who we are and what we need.

 

Unfortunately you bypassed all that "education" and now as a mature adult you need to get that experience, but your mature adult brain is discounting all and sundry as very few match up to your expectations.

You now need a serious gf or a wife, not an "experiment".

I get it.

 

BUT a short time ago, I could never have imagined you taking the step to ask a girl back to your place, so you have come a long way.

Keep going.

 

Thank you for the kind and encouraging comments, much appreciated.

 

 

I guess at the time I thought why not try something new and see where it goes.

 

 

Its strange you mention the word experiment because me inviting her back was pretty much along those lines, an experiment but at the same time I also knew that perhaps I was taking a chance with the possible outcome.

 

 

What I take out of this is, experience does matter when it comes to making decisions quickly, whereas I tend to deliberate decisions for too long. The positive I take out of it is that I do hope one day I do get the opportunity with someone I do really like but first I need to get ride of some of my jaded mind set, which is quite tough to do.

 

 

Friends of mine are very good at this random sort of hook up thing, me not so much and I know why, its because I invest in the personality more than I do in the physical attraction, sure the two models are gorgeous, both have great personalities and potentially I could compete for either of them IF I could somehow make myself more socially normal, I know what I have but its very hard to showcase that, that's probably my greatest problem.