Was it my doing (neediness) or his (unavailability)?

[SpecialJ]

Please talk to a therapist about how to start recovering from abuse (which may start with forgiving yourself), and then about tools that can help you avoid abusers in the future. This isn't a totally unusual response to it, but you need to focus on yourself and why you'd want to continue engaging with someone who has shown you over and over that he is not your fantasy but is, as you say, a monster, who admits to preying on women. Please delete him from your life, he can't provide you with any more information. What he said about "the one" being able to stop all this is a total lie and another way he's deflecting accountability. He doesn't think like you do. Talk to the therapist about why you feel so less than and how to give yourself validation instead of needing his. This is no longer about him at all, and you have a lot of work to do to get past it and get healthy. I am sympathetic, really, and I frequently feel like I don't get over things quickly enough either. But I'm being direct because the longer you give him any more thought, the longer you allow the abuse to continue and you don't deserve that.

[ExpatInItaly]

OP - stop talking to this nut-job.

 

Get tested for STIs if you were intimate with him; it sounds like he's been playing around a heck of a lot and I would not assume that he's been entirely honest with you now either. He styles himself a "master manipulator" so heaven only knows what the truth really is.

 

You need better self-esteem; that will help you to avoid desperately seeking validation from twisted men like him.

[laelithia]

Please talk to a therapist about how to start recovering from abuse (which may start with forgiving yourself), and then about tools that can help you avoid abusers in the future. This isn't a totally unusual response to it, but you need to focus on yourself and why you'd want to continue engaging with someone who has shown you over and over that he is not your fantasy but is, as you say, a monster, who admits to preying on women. Please delete him from your life, he can't provide you with any more information. What he said about "the one" being able to stop all this is a total lie and another way he's deflecting accountability. He doesn't think like you do. Talk to the therapist about why you feel so less than and how to give yourself validation instead of needing his. This is no longer about him at all, and you have a lot of work to do to get past it and get healthy. I am sympathetic, really, and I frequently feel like I don't get over things quickly enough either. But I'm being direct because the longer you give him any more thought, the longer you allow the abuse to continue and you don't deserve that.

 

Luckily I have an appointment tomorrow with a therapist. Luckily after our last phone conversation, I have not had a single desire to contact this person at all. I'm certain that I am no match for someone like this, and trying to maintain any sort of contact with him will only further hurt me. I think you are completely right, that it's not about him at all. I'm shocked that I was fooled by this person and that it impacted me as much as it did, but I'm committed to figuring out how to move past it all. It's truly terrifying to have been involved with someone like that so intimately. I can say for certain that I have learned my lesson from jumping in too quickly with anyone.

 

OP - stop talking to this nut-job.

 

Get tested for STIs if you were intimate with him; it sounds like he's been playing around a heck of a lot and I would not assume that he's been entirely honest with you now either. He styles himself a "master manipulator" so heaven only knows what the truth really is.

 

You need better self-esteem; that will help you to avoid desperately seeking validation from twisted men like him.

 

I feel incredibly foolish that I didn't recognize any red flags with him until it was too late. Little things are adding up now, however, at the time I didn't even think of them as warnings. I definitely will take my time the next time I meet someone, but at this rate, I don't foresee that being online. I can't believe how many similar stories to mine there are out there.

[Soak]

I feel incredibly foolish that I didn't recognize any red flags with him until it was too late. Little things are adding up now, however, at the time I didn't even think of them as warnings. I definitely will take my time the next time I meet someone, but at this rate, I don't foresee that being online. I can't believe how many similar stories to mine there are out there.

 

I've just come out of something similiar. Six months of on and off hell... It is only now that i am starting to put the pieces together.

[laelithia]

Soak, I'm so sorry you're going through something similar, it is truly aweful!

 

I'm wondering now if he fooled himself at the beginning into thinking he had these feelings for me, and then realized they weren't real, or was he lying and deceiving me the entire time?

 

I think I'm struggling with this part so much because when we were together, when he looked me in the eyes and told me he didn't want to ever be with anyone else, it honestly felt real, sincere. Every time he messaged me, every time he called me, it felt that way. I just want to know if he was telling the truth then, or if it was all lies and manipulation from the beginning.

[Miss Spider]

Laethia, I'm sorry but please block/delete this guy and let him go. He is not the right guy for you. He's a lesson. If you get sucked back in again you're going to feel way more hurt and and taken advantage of. Dragging it out and searching for answers you'll never find will only prolong your suffering. They'll never be found

[SpecialJ]

He probably meant it, to the best of his ability which is lacking, when he said it. These types have gaping internal holes they can't fill, because the holes require self-work and they only know how to seek external validation. They get the same new partner high as everyone else and think, maybe she's the one that will finally solve all my problems. But when that high / their own fantasy projections quickly wear off and they find the new partner is a human being too, they lose interest or ruminate on the perceived flaws because they pathologically can't handle anything less than "perfection," missing the point that it doesn't exist and the only thing that can make them happier is personal growth and shifting their own attitude. The pattern here? Their partners don't matter. It will happen over and over, each one being interchangeable, because they aren't in a head space to be capable of seeing each partner as an individual and fully formed human being.

 

YOU can't change that for him. No one can. This isn't a matter of him finding the "right" person for him. This is him getting into a mindset that's healthy for a relationship, and if he's as damaged as he says, it is likely to never happen. Because he sounds like a complete sociopath, and that's usually not treatable.

 

Block him completely. Keep going to therapy, and focus on yourself. I'm only indulging you in further analysis of him because I know how hard it is to move on to self focus the first time you encounter someone like this. It's so hard to understand. But he won't change and his problems aren't about you. He's toxic for you, so block him out and work on what you can control -- you're a self aware person (unlike him), so you CAN evolve and come out in a better place. It's a far better use of your time to concentrate on that outcome, right?

[laelithia]

He probably meant it, to the best of his ability which is lacking, when he said it. These types have gaping internal holes they can't fill, because the holes require self-work and they only know how to seek external validation. They get the same new partner high as everyone else and think, maybe she's the one that will finally solve all my problems. But when that high / their own fantasy projections quickly wear off and they find the new partner is a human being too, they lose interest or ruminate on the perceived flaws because they pathologically can't handle anything less than "perfection," missing the point that it doesn't exist and the only thing that can make them happier is personal growth and shifting their own attitude. The pattern here? Their partners don't matter. It will happen over and over, each one being interchangeable, because they aren't in a head space to be capable of seeing each partner as an individual and fully formed human being.

 

YOU can't change that for him. No one can. This isn't a matter of him finding the "right" person for him. This is him getting into a mindset that's healthy for a relationship, and if he's as damaged as he says, it is likely to never happen. Because he sounds like a complete sociopath, and that's usually not treatable.

 

Block him completely. Keep going to therapy, and focus on yourself. I'm only indulging you in further analysis of him because I know how hard it is to move on to self focus the first time you encounter someone like this. It's so hard to understand. But he won't change and his problems aren't about you. He's toxic for you, so block him out and work on what you can control -- you're a self aware person (unlike him), so you CAN evolve and come out in a better place. It's a far better use of your time to concentrate on that outcome, right?

 

Thank you, SpecialJ. I think you are completely correct about all of this. I don't know why I keep flip flopping between accepting all that you have written, and then the next moment believing it has something to do with me. I think deep down I truly miss this person that never truly existed, the kind, attentive and caring person he pretended to be. I think it's difficult for me to truly kill the tiny shred of doubt that maybe he still is there, somewhere deep inside his damaged self. But you're right, even if that's true, I can't bring it out of him and make him change. It's really like grieving a death, only worse, because the person was never real to begin with and therefore my feelings aren't either. And yet I feel so hurt, lonely, and sad over this.

 

The very worst part of this nightmare is that there is no positive outcome. Even if he completely changed, became this perfect wonderful partner again, I wouldn't be able to trust him, and I couldn't forgive or forget all that he's told me about his behaviour before and after we were together. I still have this longing to see him, face to face, I think to see once and for all he's not this wonderful person that I've put on a pedestal. That wonderful person wasn't real... but somehow that brings no comfort to me.

[SpecialJ]

I know it's hard. The only way you're going to see once and for all that he's not on the pedestal and never should have been is to block him and give yourself enough time and space to process. It sounds strange and maybe unlikely, and it could still take a couple months, but it's really the only thing that can do it. Seeing him or speaking to him further would just set you back to square one.

[laelithia]

I know it's hard. The only way you're going to see once and for all that he's not on the pedestal and never should have been is to block him and give yourself enough time and space to process. It sounds strange and maybe unlikely, and it could still take a couple months, but it's really the only thing that can do it. Seeing him or speaking to him further would just set you back to square one.

 

I know I should be able to figure this out on my own, but can I ask, which points in particular did you pick up on that he definitely never should have been on a pedestal? I'm having so much trouble staying objective and focusing on facts, and keep finding myself thinking about how he used to be and how good things were. It's SO hard to stick to cold hard facts, I'm starting to realize how much I do this daydreaming about the past business.

 

I really want to get to a place where I know for sure things never worked out, not just due to timing but because he fundamentally is unworthy of being with me.

[SpecialJ]

Just all the behaviors me and other posters have pointed out already about how he gave warning flags for narcissism, plus he's told you that who he really is is manipulative (ie he knows how to present himself as a fantasy for long enough to get what he wants). You will see this in time, but it will take time completely away from him before you can. That's totally normal.

 

Anyone can be nice for a few weeks (even Taylor Swift has lyrics about this, in Blank Space! Tongue-in-cheek, but still, it's a mainstream idea). You're lucky he showed you quickly who he really is, before you got even more sucked in.

[Ronnys93]

I know I should be able to figure this out on my own, but can I ask, which points in particular did you pick up on that he definitely never should have been on a pedestal? I'm having so much trouble staying objective and focusing on facts, and keep finding myself thinking about how he used to be and how good things were. It's SO hard to stick to cold hard facts, I'm starting to realize how much I do this daydreaming about the past business.

 

I really want to get to a place where I know for sure things never worked out, not just due to timing but because he fundamentally is unworthy of being with me.

 

In general, never put anyone on a pedestal. We're human and we're bound to fall short somewhere. That's just a general rule I think we should all live by. No need to over analyze the break up. Sometimes we see what we thought was good in people but you have to live here in the now and realize how he is treating you now. Honestly, it has nothing to do with timing. He just doesn't treat you with the respect and love that you deserve.

[laelithia]

Just all the behaviors me and other posters have pointed out already about how he gave warning flags for narcissism, plus he's told you that who he really is is manipulative (ie he knows how to present himself as a fantasy for long enough to get what he wants). You will see this in time, but it will take time completely away from him before you can. That's totally normal.

 

Anyone can be nice for a few weeks (even Taylor Swift has lyrics about this, in Blank Space! Tongue-in-cheek, but still, it's a mainstream idea). You're lucky he showed you quickly who he really is, before you got even more sucked in.

 

I think objectively I know this. The last that I struggle with is grieving/missing the person he was pretending to be. It almost feels like that person died, and was replaced by the sick, selfish person he truly is. I miss having someone be so warm and loving towards me, someone I'm truly attracted to, and seemed to share the same dreams with. Somehow telling myself that he wasn't real, that I was duped and used, makes me feel worse. I'm just so stuck and mentally exhausted and I really thought at this point, 29 days later, I should feel better about all of it...

[laelithia]

In general, never put anyone on a pedestal. We're human and we're bound to fall short somewhere. That's just a general rule I think we should all live by. No need to over analyze the break up. Sometimes we see what we thought was good in people but you have to live here in the now and realize how he is treating you now. Honestly, it has nothing to do with timing. He just doesn't treat you with the respect and love that you deserve.

 

You're right. The part that really gets me is that he promised he would never do what he's now done. He said he was going to treat me better than any man ever had, that I truly deserved the best, that he was always going to be there for me. He disparaged past ex's of mine for hurting me, and now he's done the same thing. I just don't understand why he did all of this. He could have easily found someone to have a casual relationship with if that's what he wanted. Instead, he's hurt me on a level I didn't even know existed for such a short relationship. It's made me question my judgement, my emotions, and my self esteem all in one fell swoop.

[Redhead14]

Soak, I'm so sorry you're going through something similar, it is truly aweful!

 

I'm wondering now if he fooled himself at the beginning into thinking he had these feelings for me, and then realized they weren't real, or was he lying and deceiving me the entire time?

 

I think I'm struggling with this part so much because when we were together, when he looked me in the eyes and told me he didn't want to ever be with anyone else, it honestly felt real, sincere. Every time he messaged me, every time he called me, it felt that way. I just want to know if he was telling the truth then, or if it was all lies and manipulation from the beginning.

 

I'm wondering now if he fooled himself at the beginning into thinking he had these feelings for me, -- People like this guy know themselves very, very well. He wasn't fooling himself at all, so don't look for excuses for him to help yourself.

 

when he looked me in the eyes and told me he didn't want to ever be with anyone else -- He didn't want you to be with anyone else, but he didn't want you the way you wanted him and he knew it. He wants his cake and eat it too.

 

People like this guy can pass a lie detector test because they are bereft of empathy and guilt/shame. They are completely and totally self-involved. However, they do know what the "world" expects to see and they know how to tell people what they want to hear.

[laelithia]

I'm wondering now if he fooled himself at the beginning into thinking he had these feelings for me, -- People like this guy know themselves very, very well. He wasn't fooling himself at all, so don't look for excuses for him to help yourself.

 

when he looked me in the eyes and told me he didn't want to ever be with anyone else -- He didn't want you to be with anyone else, but he didn't want you the way you wanted him and he knew it. He wants his cake and eat it too.

 

People like this guy can pass a lie detector test because they are bereft of empathy and guilt/shame. They are completely and totally self-involved. However, they do know what the "world" expects to see and they know how to tell people what they want to hear.

 

I spoke with him on the phone today. I simply could not resist myself, and since it has now been 1 month after this all ended, I figured I might as well get some closure. I’m not sure really what I got from it. He was at the gym, with the newest girl. I asked him if it was the same one as last time we spoke, but no, she was new. That means this is his fourth girl since me. He told me he matched with her tinder while he was up north for work, and now that he has time off, she is staying with him for the week. I laughed at this point, not maliciously, just more at the absurdity of his pattern of behaviour. I stayed with him for 5 days the last time we met, too. He said "don't judge me!" jokingly, but I told him I wasn't, just thought his MO was kind of funny. He told me she lives up north (4 hours away), but that he really likes her, that they have so much in common, that it’s possible she’s “the one”. He told me at the time when he said those things to me, he believed them at the time. I actually do believe him, but not in a good way. He strikes me now as very emotionally immature, almost stunted, in that he doesn't know what he wants, is fickle, and confuses himself by his own behaviour. He seems more idiotic/ignorant than malicious to me now. Which really, isn't any better.

 

The more I think about, the more ridiculous I see his behaviours. Yet I still seem to be at best interested in what he’s up to, and at worst, obsessed with it. The strangest part of the phone call was how I felt about it. I was a bit jealous I suppose in that he was spending time with a new person and that he seems to be so into her and has now rejected me (I have very clear issues with handling rejection), but I don’t think I felt sad/devastated/depressed about it. If i'm truly honest, what I miss out of the relationship seems to be centered around physical appearance and chemistry. I’m starting to feel like this really has nothing to do with him at all (as some of you have pointed out), but something to do with myself and my patterns of behaviour. That somehow focusing on him and how I can’t be with him (or more accurately who he pretended to be), my “dream guy”, is some sort of distraction from myself, and deeper issues I have.

 

Specifically, I’m starting to worry that I actually like these doomed relationships, that a healthy, committed relationship seems “boring” to me. I’m not sure when this started to happen, but I think it’s been a long time. I was in a healthy relationship between the ages of 18-25, we had a house together and 2 dogs, yet I didn’t seem happy. At the end of our relationship, I began pursuing an online/LDR with an older man whom I had known since I was 17. Somehow that seemed more attractive/exciting that my current “boring” life, even though it was also doomed to fail. I wonder how I can go about changing this internal dialogue, that I can start to see healthy relationships with healthy boundaries and true love and respect as wonderful and exciting in themselves, rather than these toxic, hot/cold relationships I’m accustomed to.

Edited May 19, 2017 by laelithia

[ExpatInItaly]

The problem here isn't him anymore. It's you. You could resist calling him but you don't want to resist it. You are enabling his ridiculous behaviour and your own heartbreak. And yes, you very much need to investigate why you are so attracted to dysfunction.

 

Also, why do you buy everything he says? He could tell you anything about any of these girls, and you seem to believe him - that is cause for concern. Consider for a moment that he could be making a lot of this up, or at least exaggerating the details, in an effort to send the message to you that he's not interested any longer. I personally think he's taking creative liberty with some of this because he knows it bothers you and he likes having that power of you. He also thinks it makes him seem desirable to have "4 girls" + you all chasing him.

 

The bigger cause for concern is why you haven't deleted his number.

 

You're drifting in Stage 5 Clinger territory, OP.

[Ronnys93]

He's telling you things to bring your self esteem down, he knows exactly what he's doing. He even knows how far gone he's got you. He'd tell you to sit, and you'd do it. Listen to ExpatInItaly here please, delete his number, block it even. Don't look back.

[Miss Spider]

This was all about infatuation and since the rejection you've become more infatuated! Because he is out of reach, you've idealized him even more. Like he's too good for you in some ways. This is certainly a self esteem thing because with healthy self esteem you would not keep obsessing over him. It seems you are still in denial. Like if you had done some little things different, you would have lived happily ever after. NOT. He was playing from the start, he's still playing, and you're still eating up what he says. And he is loving every second of this ego boost.

 

 

I think you have a morbid 'what if' curiosity that is overriding the humiliation and discomfort of what you are doing - obsessing over him a month after it's over. So you will be confused about how you feel interacting with him. The indignity of what you're doing no longer fazes you much at this point. I think if you work on your self esteem and you have an easier time letting go of uninterested, unavailable men.

[laelithia]

Yes, I think you all make good points. He could very well be lying about the other women, but when on the phone with him yesterday, I actually heard the other woman talking to him. I asked him who that was, and he told me. When I asked him who he told her he was talking to, he said she didn't know he was on the phone since it just looked like he was listening to music on his headphones. Didn't seem to phase him that she could figure it out, and we were on the phone for 20 minutes.

 

I'm starting to realize that I feel much more comfortable in relationships where the man feels just out of my reach, like somehow I have to work to "earn" him. I've had many nice, objectively attractive (although I usually don't see them this way) men be interested in me over the years, but somehow I always go for these unavailable types. I seem to find them physically amazingly attractive, usually they're handsome men with some sort of uniqeness to them, and I become totally obsessed with that. I'm not sure why physical appearance and attractiveness seem to be so important to me in dating? Almost like it overrides everything else. Which I know is ridiculous and yet here we are.

 

I thought this last one was different because he was talking up the future so much, I had never experienced that before with an unavailable type. I think it was music to my ears to feel like I finally got one of this elusive, unavailable men to completely commit to me. However, as you know, actions speak much louder than words.

 

I really do agree at this point I am becoming more invested to the problem rather than the solution. I answered his call yesterday solely because I felt (and usually do with these unavailable exes) that he somehow holds a key to some realization I need to come to to fully move on from these silly relationships. However, I realize now that he does not. I understand how it seems he is manipilatife and evil, but the truth is, I think he's totally oblivious, thinking one day he'll find "the one", and I'm just one of many that can't seem to let go. He doesn't readily provide this information on what he's up to me, he doesn't brag about his conquests. I actually ask him about it, to the point where he finally just tells me out of exasperation. It's like I'm trying to console myself by proving that I didn't really lose anything, that at bare minimum he's not a loyal committed man, and at worst, he's incredibly selfish and possibly disordered.

 

I remember he told me his ex was sending him long emails, begging to talk when we first started dating. She even messaged me, only because she had noticed we added each other on social media. Meaning she was stalking his pages, desperate for some closure/answers, I suppose just like I was. I've thought about messaging her back now, but I wonder if there's even a point. I think if anything he has an avoidant attachment style, and that somehow it's so easy for us preoccupied/anxious attached women to become obsessed with the perceived rejection.

Edited May 19, 2017 by laelithia

[Ronnys93]

Yes, I think you all make good points. He could very well be lying about the other women, but when on the phone with him yesterday, I actually heard the other woman talking to him. I asked him who that was, and he told me. When I asked him who he told her he was talking to, he said she didn't know he was on the phone since it just looked like he was listening to music on his headphones. Didn't seem to phase him that she could figure it out, and we were on the phone for 20 minutes.

 

I'm starting to realize that I feel much more comfortable in relationships where the man feels just out of my reach, like somehow I have to work to "earn" him. I've had many nice, objectively attractive (although I usually don't see them this way) men be interested in me over the years, but somehow I always go for these unavailable types. I seem to find them physically amazingly attractive, usually they're handsome men with some sort of uniqeness to them, and I become totally obsessed with that. I'm not sure why physical appearance and attractiveness seem to be so important to me in dating? Almost like it overrides everything else. Which I know is ridiculous and yet here we are.

 

I thought this last one was different because he was talking up the future so much, I had never experienced that before with an unavailable type. I think it was music to my ears to feel like I finally got one of this elusive, unavailable men to completely commit to me. However, as you know, actions speak much louder than words.

 

I really do agree at this point I am becoming more invested to the problem rather than the solution. I answered his call yesterday solely because I felt (and usually do with these unavailable exes) that he somehow holds a key to some realization I need to come to to fully move on from these silly relationships. However, I realize now that he does not. I understand how it seems he is manipilatife and evil, but the truth is, I think he's totally oblivious, thinking one day he'll find "the one", and I'm just one of many that can't seem to let go. He doesn't readily provide this information on what he's up to me, he doesn't brag about his conquests. I actually ask him about it, to the point where he finally just tells me out of exasperation. It's like I'm trying to console myself by proving that I didn't really lose anything, that at bare minimum he's not a loyal committed man, and at worst, he's incredibly selfish and possibly disordered.

 

I remember he told me his ex was sending him long emails, begging to talk when we first started dating. She even messaged me, only because she had noticed we added each other on social media. Meaning she was stalking his pages, desperate for some closure/answers, I suppose just like I was. I've thought about messaging her back now, but I wonder if there's even a point. I think if anything he has an avoidant attachment style, and that somehow it's so easy for us preoccupied/anxious attached women to become obsessed with the perceived rejection.

 

That woman could have been ANYONE. Lol, you have to understand that manipulators are keen on people's curiosity and low self esteem. He's using the fact that you are insecure to make you desperate and it's working. You really need to cut him off.

 

I'm sorry, but MY ex is an fearful avoidant but he was actually scared to get close to me. He still communicates with me to this day, but he's nowhere NEAR playing the games that this man is playing with you. The avoidant stuff just means that they aren't as likely to commit and play a game of "hot and cold" with you. Sometimes they aren't even sure how to accept lovely compliments because they've been hurt or abused as children. While people who are avoidant can also be narcissist, I assure you that your guy is more of a narc than an avoidant. He's just playing games with you.

[stillafool]

He's telling you things to bring your self esteem down, he knows exactly what he's doing. He even knows how far gone he's got you. He'd tell you to sit, and you'd do it. Listen to ExpatInItaly here please, delete his number, block it even. Don't look back.

 

I don't know if this is the case as much as he just doesn't care how it comes off because he has so many women. He's brutally honest with women because he knows anything he says never deters them.

[Miss Spider]

If he was being decent he would not be divulging this info with you, a woman he has hurt, about new girls, even if you wanted it. Itvwould only serve to hurt you because it's not your business anymore. But he is enjoying it. I think more people (women, specifically) care about looks more than they admit. We all have what we like. But I think you might be especially concerned with image...and what having this man and his validation adds to your self image/ego. I hope you will stop looking for answers in this abuser.

[stillafool]

If he was being decent he would not be divulging this info with you, a woman he has hurt, about new girls, even if you wanted it. Itvwould only serve to hurt you because it's not your business anymore. But he is enjoying it. I think more people (women, specifically) care about looks more than they admit. We all have what we like. But I think you might be especially concerned with image...and what having this man and his validation adds to your self image/ego. I hope you will stop looking for answers in this abuser.

 

He is saying these things to hurt her so she will leave him alone. It is getting to the point where he probably thinks it's a game to see just how bad he can treat her before she gives up and moves on.