Midnight reading

[Clockwatching]

Those are great changes - especially school - education is one thing that can never be taken away from you.

 

 

Well, for me, I've been at this discovery about ten years now - so my ideas about self reliance have evolved knowing that my "perception" of others is an illusion or better yet "temporary thoughts about how someone acts/feels".

 

Since I can't rely on an illusion or a temporary feeling I really needed to know only how I feel.

 

 

I am no longer co dependent. I base decisions on evidence - solid evidence (not "feelings") - and I know firmly what MY healthy boundary looks like - for me.

 

I expanded my creative outlets (they keep me happy and healthy and sane) and I know how to be a happy gal all on my own! When I'm interested in a man I know full well I'm offering my happpy self to a potential relationship. What he may offer comes with the evidence he presents. Ahaha!

 

In any event, each day I am truly happy...that's the gift I give myself. It's not dependent on things or other people. It took a long haul to get to this place of balance for me - but I'm quite enjoying it!

 

Thank you I am looking forward to it, discovering what I'm actually passionate about and what I wanted to spend my time doing was a big revelation for me - considering this is what I've always done, looking back it's quite blatant, but it's something that I always hid.

 

Completely - emotions and feelings are temporary and changeable, if they weren't we'd all be in stasis.

 

I think the self reliance dynamic that we're talking about is self knowledge and self love, without the attaching to an outcome projected onto someone else.

 

That attachment style is very much the dynamic of a co-dependent, moulding ourselves into what we think is the right fit for a circumstance or person to get love, acceptance, significance, whichever is the focus for you.

 

I definitely make decisions based on how I feel, but with a curious mind as to what I feel and why I feel it so that the decision I make comes from a place of self love. I'm careful about not making my feelings my enemy, but I try to listen to what they're trying to tell me - after years of switching off to them it can be a challenge but it's most certainly fruitful.

 

Creative outlets definitely help - what sort of thing do you do?

 

I'm curious to understand what you mean by seeing evidence as to what a man can offer you - it sounds like you're putting up a defence to see whether he's worthy in a way, which makes me feel that there's something in you that still feels quite vulnerable?

 

I'm definitely not in a place where I can offer a relationship to anyone as I have a lot of work to do on trusting myself and my emotions, it's a work in progress.

[HeartbrokenDec29]

xOW, thank you for sharing this. Its amazing

Edited April 20, 2017 by HeartbrokenDec29

[Clockwatching]

xOW, thank you for sharing this. Its amazing

 

Aww, that's the sweetest comment ever Glad that you liked it.

[Southwardbound]

Wow - Clockwatching you've obviously thought a lot about this, and what you've said is really spot on.

 

It took me a long time to learn that communication is one of the key aspects to having and maintaining good relationships. Mainly because, I didn't have good role parental role models. -from having a narcissistic mum who emotionally checked out, alcoholic stepfather, and a nonexistent dad. In high school, I had a long-term relationship that carried on for 6 years. He and I experienced love, & his family ended up being the role models for what I thought good parenting should be. Although, we had a good relationship, I said no, to marrying him. Mainly, while in University we just went separate ways as young people often do. And I think it's good that I was able to recognize we weren't in the end right for each other as far as being married goes. He and I are still really good friends, we periodically talk, because we know each other, & both of us feel comfortable about revealing our vulnerabilities to each other. I think what you said about how men don't really reveal to their man friends every emotional issue is correct. To do so would make them seem weak and no man wants to appear weak before other men. Maybe that is why men cleave so much to their one partner? Then when they feel their partner is not communicating good, along with what they see as denying them sex, they check out & seek out that need for emotional closeness-intimacy elsewhere which is why they have a AP.

 

Sure, I think some OM can detach themselves emotionally have affairs for just sex. But, I think there is a large emotional component in there - that need for emotional closeness that they feel they are not getting at home, which is why they do have affairs. And maybe, they just don't admit how much even with their affair partner they really need to feel that emotional closeness? Really it all boils down to communication and not making assumptions about what your partner is thinking, but to tell them how you are feeling and to ask them how they are feeling. It takes effort to do that all the time, along with being willing to reveal your vulnerabilities, instead of hiding them inside.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Wow - Clockwatching you've obviously thought a lot about this, and what you've said is really spot on.

 

It took me a long time to learn that communication is one of the key aspects to having and maintaining good relationships. Mainly because, I didn't have good role parental role models. -from having a narcissistic mum who emotionally checked out, alcoholic stepfather, and a nonexistent dad. In high school, I had a long-term relationship that carried on for 6 years. He and I experienced love, & his family ended up being the role models for what I thought good parenting should be. Although, we had a good relationship, I said no, to marrying him. Mainly, while in University we just went separate ways as young people often do. And I think it's good that I was able to recognize we weren't in the end right for each other as far as being married goes. He and I are still really good friends, we periodically talk, because we know each other, & both of us feel comfortable about revealing our vulnerabilities to each other. I think what you said about how men don't really reveal to their man friends every emotional issue is correct. To do so would make them seem weak and no man wants to appear weak before other men. Maybe that is why men cleave so much to their one partner? Then when they feel their partner is not communicating good, along with what they see as denying them sex, they check out & seek out that need for emotional closeness-intimacy elsewhere which is why they have a AP.

 

Sure, I think some OM can detach themselves emotionally have affairs for just sex. But, I think there is a large emotional component in there - that need for emotional closeness that they feel they are not getting at home, which is why they do have affairs. And maybe, they just don't admit how much even with their affair partner they really need to feel that emotional closeness? Really it all boils down to communication and not making assumptions about what your partner is thinking, but to tell them how you are feeling and to ask them how they are feeling. It takes effort to do that all the time, along with being willing to reveal your vulnerabilities, instead of hiding them inside.

 

 

I think it is a leap to state that most MOM/MOW are looking for emotional closeness.

 

Much like the OP has stated about themselves.....most are looking to be validated...even in ways that cause destruction to self. Like everyone else...most WS are not enlightened to how they tick and why. Like everyone else....most look outward...for a mirror...any mirror ....that will reflect their "specialness".

 

Just like AP.....many WS now see how they let themselves down. There aren't very many WS that would state....having the WS lapel is something that they are proud of, that it is something that makes them feel more like a "man", "woman" or like "themselves". It takes away from self....just like it does for many AP.

 

At the end of the day....whilst in an affair....everyone is masking their true self....mostly to themselves.

[Southwardbound]

'At the end of the day....whilst in an affair....everyone is masking their true self....mostly to themselves'

 

I would be wary using the term... 'everyone' as that implies all people. I'm not so sure about that. I've been upfront with my OM, & not 'masked' myself to him.

[Clockwatching]

Wow - Clockwatching you've obviously thought a lot about this, and what you've said is really spot on.

 

It took me a long time to learn that communication is one of the key aspects to having and maintaining good relationships. Mainly because, I didn't have good role parental role models. -from having a narcissistic mum who emotionally checked out, alcoholic stepfather, and a nonexistent dad. In high school, I had a long-term relationship that carried on for 6 years. He and I experienced love, & his family ended up being the role models for what I thought good parenting should be. Although, we had a good relationship, I said no, to marrying him. Mainly, while in University we just went separate ways as young people often do. And I think it's good that I was able to recognize we weren't in the end right for each other as far as being married goes. He and I are still really good friends, we periodically talk, because we know each other, & both of us feel comfortable about revealing our vulnerabilities to each other. I think what you said about how men don't really reveal to their man friends every emotional issue is correct. To do so would make them seem weak and no man wants to appear weak before other men. Maybe that is why men cleave so much to their one partner? Then when they feel their partner is not communicating good, along with what they see as denying them sex, they check out & seek out that need for emotional closeness-intimacy elsewhere which is why they have a AP.

 

Sure, I think some OM can detach themselves emotionally have affairs for just sex. But, I think there is a large emotional component in there - that need for emotional closeness that they feel they are not getting at home, which is why they do have affairs. And maybe, they just don't admit how much even with their affair partner they really need to feel that emotional closeness? Really it all boils down to communication and not making assumptions about what your partner is thinking, but to tell them how you are feeling and to ask them how they are feeling. It takes effort to do that all the time, along with being willing to reveal your vulnerabilities, instead of hiding them inside.

 

Hi Southward,

 

I think definitely our upbringing's set us up for how we understand ourselves, set our expectations and needed resolutions in our relationships, and define our understanding of the world - as time goes on in our lives there's much to unravel in ourselves, and it's quite a journey.

 

I resonate with you in terms of being brought up with narcissists and people who had emotionally checked out - the more I learn about people the more common I see this thread and the struggles people have had as a result emotionally to resolve their issues. For me the hope is that if we can resolve them we can bring up healthier children and break the cycle.

 

I don't think that communication issues are only issued to men - we have a culture that seems to see men as emotionally obtuse and women who are obscure, where I think both parties have never been taught to identify and accept their own emotions and to be able to communicate them - on top of which we communicate in completely different modes due to our expectations of what a 'man' is and what a 'woman' is. In many ways we've been set up to be diametrically opposed whereas fundamentally we're the same when it comes down to emotional structure.

 

People definitely have different motivations, so for some men and women it may be emotional closeness, whereas for others it may be a need to feel important to someone else, or to feel a sense of excitement - it's ultimately a very individual thing.

 

Something I've learned recently is that how you feel with your partner (this also works with friends and family) is a reflection of how they feel with you - our relationships are a mirror that reflect back to us our internal world.

 

The reasonings and expectations may be different for the other person so rather than assume, you can ask 'what is it about this situation that's making them feel anxious, powerless, joyful, powerful, excited' and so on and this will give good insight and connection.

 

Of course the outcome that you would like does not necessarily mean that this is also their desire, so do this without attaching to an outcome, this is only in terms of appreciating moments that you have, and also a great way to stay present with your partner.

 

I definitely agree that there is courage involved in being this vulnerable, but ultimately it brings us back to who we really are and from that point, anything that doesn't serve us falls away and we get onto our true path, and that's got to be a good thing.

[Clockwatching]

I think it is a leap to state that most MOM/MOW are looking for emotional closeness.

 

Much like the OP has stated about themselves.....most are looking to be validated...even in ways that cause destruction to self. Like everyone else...most WS are not enlightened to how they tick and why. Like everyone else....most look outward...for a mirror...any mirror ....that will reflect their "specialness".

 

Just like AP.....many WS now see how they let themselves down. There aren't very many WS that would state....having the WS lapel is something that they are proud of, that it is something that makes them feel more like a "man", "woman" or like "themselves". It takes away from self....just like it does for many AP.

 

At the end of the day....whilst in an affair....everyone is masking their true self....mostly to themselves.

 

Hi always growing,

 

I kind of see this from a different perspective - I don't see needing to be validating or feeling special as a bad thing, we're all human and we do all need that. Ideally of course we'd go about getting this in a way that didn't involve deceit or shame, but if someone has gotten to that point in their lives it means that the need is chronic, and the person has abandoned their values in order to meet their need - this is quite a severe state that someone has found themselves in.

 

What affairs do is majorly highlight the need that's not being met, the pain that someone is in that has led them to that course of action, and the pain that it causes ultimately leads to transformation in one way or another. Pain is not a bad thing, it's just a messenger to say that something urgently needs our attention.

 

There are many ways it can go - it can assist someone in wearing a mask of 'I'm ok' whilst in an affair because their getting what they need outside the marriage and so sustain their current situation, and in other cases it also strips them of the mask because it lays bare the need itself (which can be very painful). There are an awful lot of people who otherwise wouldn't be in an affair in ordinary circumstances who go through this kind of self reflection.

 

There are those that don't of course and stay in the river of denial forever more, but this is usually a classic case of avoiding the pain and shame and the message within that, and we're all inundated with being told that pain and shame are always things to avoid.

[Chica80]

Hi always growing,

 

I kind of see this from a different perspective - I don't see needing to be validating or feeling special as a bad thing, we're all human and we do all need that. Ideally of course we'd go about getting this in a way that didn't involve deceit or shame, but if someone has gotten to that point in their lives it means that the need is chronic, and the person has abandoned their values in order to meet their need - this is quite a severe state that someone has found themselves in.

 

What affairs do is majorly highlight the need that's not being met, the pain that someone is in that has led them to that course of action, and the pain that it causes ultimately leads to transformation in one way or another. Pain is not a bad thing, it's just a messenger to say that something urgently needs our attention.

 

There are many ways it can go - it can assist someone in wearing a mask of 'I'm ok' whilst in an affair because their getting what they need outside the marriage and so sustain their current situation, and in other cases it also strips them of the mask because it lays bare the need itself (which can be very painful). There are an awful lot of people who otherwise wouldn't be in an affair in ordinary circumstances who go through this kind of self reflection.

 

There are those that don't of course and stay in the river of denial forever more, but this is usually a classic case of avoiding the pain and shame and the message within that, and we're all inundated with being told that pain and shame are always things to avoid.

 

OP I truly appreciate your post and your insight!!

 

This!!!!

What affairs do is majorly highlight the need that's not being met, the pain that someone is in that has led them to that course of action, and the pain that it causes ultimately leads to transformation in one way or another. Pain is not a bad thing, it's just a messenger to say that something urgently needs our attention.

[Chica80]

And this:

 

but if someone has gotten to that point in their lives it means that the need is chronic, and the person has abandoned their values in order to meet their need - this is quite a severe state that someone has found themselves in.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Hi always growing,

 

I kind of see this from a different perspective - I don't see needing to be validating or feeling special as a bad thing, we're all human and we do all need that. Ideally of course we'd go about getting this in a way that didn't involve deceit or shame, but if someone has gotten to that point in their lives it means that the need is chronic, and the person has abandoned their values in order to meet their need - this is quite a severe state that someone has found themselves in.

 

What affairs do is majorly highlight the need that's not being met, the pain that someone is in that has led them to that course of action, and the pain that it causes ultimately leads to transformation in one way or another. Pain is not a bad thing, it's just a messenger to say that something urgently needs our attention.

 

There are many ways it can go - it can assist someone in wearing a mask of 'I'm ok' whilst in an affair because their getting what they need outside the marriage and so sustain their current situation, and in other cases it also strips them of the mask because it lays bare the need itself (which can be very painful). There are an awful lot of people who otherwise wouldn't be in an affair in ordinary circumstances who go through this kind of self reflection.

 

There are those that don't of course and stay in the river of denial forever more, but this is usually a classic case of avoiding the pain and shame and the message within that, and we're all inundated with being told that pain and shame are always things to avoid.

 

 

Not all needs are healthy needs. Trying to bundle all affairs up in "the WS was not getting their needs met in the marriage", is way too simplistic.

 

Often times, and I think that the OP referenced this, the so called "need" is an internal injury from childhood that was never addressed/identified.

 

Those who have never identified internal flawed wiring usual do not have healthy tools in their life toolbox. Often, those same folks have unrealistic expectations from their SO. They expect to be "happy" 24-7. And if they arent... they point to external reasons why.

 

Needing validation from any available source is absolutely not healthy. It reinforces the faulty wiring of "how others think about me is more important than my view of myself".

 

Self respect is one of the most important gifts that we can give to ourselves. For when we know that we have conducted ourselves that honours our view of being a "good person", we dont leave ourselves open to the unhealthy "need" for others to set our worth.

 

Affairs for many WS/AP destroy their sense of self even further. I have read elsewhere it being referred to as "soul-suicide". For those WS/AP, the road back is long.

 

Too often the WS was not so much not getting their needs met, they had been living their life with blinders on, blinders to see others fully, blinders to how their actions affect others, blinders on how "good" of a person they actually are.

[Clockwatching]

Hi Alwaysgrowing,

 

 

There's almost too much to cover in this thread sometimes, we're going from childhood trauma, to socialisation, to needs, to coping strategies, to enlightenment – not too demanding..!

 

 

I'm curious to know what needs you would consider to be unhealthy?

 

 

For me the reason the thought that 'not all needs were being met in the marriage' is a problem is because:

 

 

 

• There is an assumption in that sentence that we're expecting one person to meet all of the needs that we have – more often than not for most people this isn't a way that they desire to live with their partner for reasons below:
  
• Not only does this bind your sense of self to the other person and make you dependent on their treatment of you or perception of you for you to be happy and for them to be happy (in which case you're very likely highly co-dependent), but your partner will likely not be capable of meeting all of your needs, as well as the fact that they may not want to.
  
• This often encourages a dynamic of control and subservience which are covers for feelings such as unaddressed helplessness and fear. Some people may go through their lives never addressing this and be ok in a partnership with this dynamic under certain circumstances, but for a large amount of people it's not sustainable as the amount of need on one side often outweighs the need on the other and it creates an imbalance which leads to unhappiness.
  
• There's an implication that the person with the expectation of all needs being met are also pressuring and manipulating the partner to behave in a certain way for the relationship to remain in balance, without going deeper into themselves to see what's really going on – this is a form of emotional blackmail.
  
• It implies a transactional relationship rather than a relationship of mutual understanding, respect and allowance.
  

 

 

Each person in any relationship is responsible for being self aware and self reflective and nobody in this great and good world can do this for us. Many times it takes something outside of ourselves to wake us up to become aware, and this can be an exhilarating, liberating, a painful and traumatic experience that does inevitably affect other people because we don't exist in a vacuum and no man is an island (even if sometimes, that's exactly how we feel).

 

 

In terms of validation there is a big difference between asking someone to define who you are, or asking them to validate who you already are – this is the difference between unhealthy and healthy validation, a validation of who you already are is certainly something that I see everyone needing as a good thing as a part of a social species.

 

 

I think it needs to be understood that it's the expression of a need that can be destructive, rather than the need itself – for example, if someone has a deep need for belonging and connection they may choose to join a street gang, whereas someone else may volunteer for a charity organisation – the need is the same but the expression of it is what makes the difference between a self destructive and self supportive expression.

 

 

The difference between the choice will depend upon the background of the person's family and environment, the template that they've been brought up with which will stem from their childhood experience. In this way, needs are anything but simple as we need to be aware of the background influences on our impulses, choices and passions and as mentioned, that awareness often doesn't happen until something happens to us.

 

 

As an example, the person who chooses a street gang for belonging and connection may come from a background that favours a blame culture, where the child can never live up to standard, where they can't do right for doing wrong, where being defensive, guarded and aggressive is the mode of communication and relation.

 

 

The person may feel a great need to belong but cannot operate in an environment of openness, honesty and freely giving kindness to another person because it was never safe to do so – these are wounds that need to be healed for the person to be able to meet their need for belonging and connection in a way that supports them and leads them to self love, this can't be done without healing the original wound.

 

 

For that person there will be other traumas that have never been resolved – the need for self expression for instance, the person was very likely to not be allowed their own emotions and thoughts and there will likely be a deep need for that helplessness to be heard and validated. There will likely be a deep well of anger or rage, confusion, hurt and a lack of knowledge of who they are.

 

 

The reference of being a 'good person' is interesting because there is a great variety about how this is interpreted, and many can be covert and destructive.

 

 

A good person in my family for instance was someone who never objected, never showed how they feel or what they think, to do so was selfish and arrogant as what we thought and felt was essentially insignificant. This is extremely common in society and leads to a lot of people not being able to be honest and open and wearing a facade to people around them – because this is what makes them 'good'. Often we will need to look at and redefine our definition of good in order to move forward, but we can only do that once we're aware of our template.

 

 

When we are not aware of our templates and the dam breaks, our coping mechanisms don't work any more, something happens in our lives, and the pain is too much, hiding and pretending is no longer possible and we start to seek the meeting of those needs in other ways, often hidden and secretive, such as through affairs or addictions, because our needs are deemed 'selfish' and make us a 'bad' person.

 

 

This mode of shaming ourselves for these aspects of self does nothing but reinforce the self image as shameful, which led to the original problem, rather than address the perfectly valid need that lies underneath that was never met or expressed, and healing the original wound.

[Clockwatching]

OP I truly appreciate your post and your insight!!

 

This!!!!

What affairs do is majorly highlight the need that's not being met, the pain that someone is in that has led them to that course of action, and the pain that it causes ultimately leads to transformation in one way or another. Pain is not a bad thing, it's just a messenger to say that something urgently needs our attention.

 

Ahh thank you Sunshine - I'm not great with compliments (I'm working on it!) so I don't quite know what to say but that did make me smile.

 

I love that everyone's so open to have these discussions as it's all deep and personal, but these are big emotional events in our lives that lead to big changes or can do if we want them to - the more we can be open about our emotions and accept them just as they are the happier and healthier we will be, so I really do appreciate everyone's insight and contribution.

 

It's really made me think and take on board other people's thoughts and feelings and I think it helps us all to process this stuff and find out more about who we are and grow as people - seeing as we are all stardust the brighter we can help each other sparkle the better.

[Chica80]

When we are not aware of our templates and the dam breaks, our coping mechanisms don't work any more, something happens in our lives, and the pain is too much, hiding and pretending is no longer possible and we start to seek the meeting of those needs in other ways, often hidden and secretive, such as through affairs or addictions, because our needs are deemed 'selfish' and make us a 'bad' person.

 

This was my AP......

[Clockwatching]

Ditto.. but then that was me too, so we were a direct reflection of each other in that sense.