She's starting birth control and I plan on continuing to use condoms

[introverted1]

I don't want to call it a "trust" issue because that's absolutely not fair. But what else can you call it?

 

It's not a trust issue? What is it, then? Especially since you said in your OP, "She used to be on BC during our first year together. I didn't use any condoms at the time."

 

BCP, used correctly, is pretty much infallible: 99.7% effective.

[Fondue]

It's not a trust issue? What is it, then? Especially since you said in your OP, "She used to be on BC during our first year together. I didn't use any condoms at the time."

 

BCP, used correctly, is pretty much infallible: 99.7% effective.

You're proving my point:

 

"You're damned if you​ do, and you're damned if you don't."

 

If you want to protect yourself from any accidents, then you're not trusting your SO.

 

If you have an accident and didn't protect yourself​, then the question is: "well, why didn't you protect yourself then!?"

 

See how ****ed up that is? That's a HUGE issue.

 

That's why the word "trust" here sucks. Putting yourself in a situation where you can only lose is stupid. And taking measures for damage control isn't untrustworthy. It's... Something else.

[introverted1]

You're proving my point:

 

"You're damned if you​ do, and you're damned if you don't."

 

If you want to protect yourself from any accidents, then you're not trusting your SO.

 

If you have an accident and didn't protect yourself​, then the question is: "well, why didn't you protect yourself then!?"

 

See how ****ed up that is? That's a HUGE issue.

 

That's why the word "trust" here sucks. Putting yourself in a situation where you can only lose is stupid. And taking measures for damage control isn't untrustworthy. It's... Something else.

 

I fail to see how I'm proving your point.

 

Any partnership involves trust, whether it's trust that the other partner will use BC correctly or that they won't wipe out the bank account or that they won't become abusive or whatever.

 

You're saying your gf of 3 1/2 years, whom you think you might want to MARRY, can't be relied upon to use BCP correctly.

 

If this were a girl you were dating casually, I would see this differently and encourage you to use condoms. But the disconnect between wanting to marry her but at the same time being unwilling to rely on her is jarring.

 

How do you intend to frame it to her when she asks? Especially since, for a YEAR in the beginning of your r/s, you were apparently fine with not using a condom. What has changed?

[RecentChange]

I appreciate your response. Thank you.

 

I honestly don't see the "rush" at 29. And she's only 26. It's not crucial. She also told me if she would have them, it wouldn't be until she's 30. Which I know, some women consider that as already "pushing it." But ultimately if that's her plan, that's her plan. I'm not female, so I don't "feel" that urgency for sure.

 

Here's the thing.

 

I don’t think you need to RUSH to have kids this year, or next, or the one after that. The vast majority of my friends, and my siblings had their first born well into their 30’s.

 

But within the first few years of dating their future wives and husbands they had made a decision. YES we want children. YES we want to get married. YES we have a common vision for the future.

 

Or in my case, it was YES we are both on the same page as NOT wanting children, with a YES to marriage, and a YES to a vision for the future.

 

You are three years deep, and “on the fence” is what you still have. What do you need? Three more years? What if after 6 years together, she decides YES I really want children, and you decide NO.

 

Then what? Part ways, she has to try to find someone else who she is compatible with and also wants children? Then spend a few more years, engagement marriage etc.

 

If after 3 years you do not know. When will you know? How much time is going to be invested before it is determined if you two are compatible on a fundamental issue?

 

 

As far as what I want: I never pictured myself with offspring. Disliked the idea since I began babysitting many years ago, come to think of it.

 

I babysat A LOT in my early 20s. My brother and sister in law both worked full-time and I was the primary"nanny" for their kids from baby to preschool. So I had some experience in this. Admittedly, I was very good with them. I'm confident in saying I would be a fantastic parent... But I know how much effort it takes. And I'm not sure I want all that effort. I just don't.

 

Kids thrive when they're desired. I think the best families are those that 100% have that desire in their hearts. You shouldn't hesitate to go in it. I know I can't have that 100% desire for one right now-- so I am on the fence.

 

I am VERY much like you. Only I always had a inkling that I did not want children. Nannying for my sister (my siblings are 10 years old) when I was in my early 20's sealed the deal. It was a NOPE. This is not for me, this is not the lifestyle I want. "But you are SO good with kids!" I was often told. Being good with children does not mean I want the life of a parent.

 

I am now 38. My husband and I are blissfully childless. We travel often, go on dates several times a week. We go to concerts, on road trips, and just about anything else we want to do on a whim.

 

We spend tons of time on our hobbies, we focus on our careers, and have plenty of time to keep the passion alive after 15 years together.

 

When I see our friends and family that have chosen children, I do not envy them in the slightest.

 

So - Are you REALLY on the fence about this? Or is it easier to tell her you are on the fence?

 

What would your reaction be if she "accidentally" got pregnant? What is the game plan if that does happen?

 

My husband and I are pro-choice. Have you had a similar discussion with your GF of three years? I have this discussion with any man I have slept with because there is ALWAYS a risk of pregnancy with sex. And its vital that parties are in agreement.

Edited March 15, 2017 by RecentChange

[Fondue]

I fail to see how I'm proving your point.

 

Any partnership involves trust, whether it's trust that the other partner will use BC correctly or that they won't wipe out the bank account or that they won't become abusive or whatever.

 

You're saying your gf of 3 1/2 years, whom you think you might want to MARRY, can't be relied upon to use BCP correctly.

 

If this were a girl you were dating casually, I would see this differently and encourage you to use condoms. But the disconnect between wanting to marry her but at the same time being unwilling to rely on her is jarring.

 

How do you intend to frame it to her when she asks? Especially since, for a YEAR in the beginning of your r/s, you were apparently fine with not using a condom. What has changed?

 

First off, let me say thank you for replying. I genuinely appreciate the food for thought and your opinion. As it will definitely help me here.

 

With that said, if I instead I made a topic, "help!! My GF is pregnant! She was on BC and it failed!!!!"

 

How many people would come out and say, "shoulda used a condom!! It's your own fault!"

 

That's the point. You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. You're telling me I'm in the wrong by wanting to use my own BC. But if I don't and **** happens, it's my fault for not using BC. See what I mean???

 

 

What's changed is the two pregnancy scares I highlighted in my first post. When I was 25/26, I didn't think about much. It was just awesome to have bareback sexytime. Now I'm a (little) more mature and clearly understand that BC can AND does fail from time to time. So I want to be careful.

 

--

 

There was another post after this one. I will reply to that shortly. On the train. Hard to type a lot. Thank you all for the feedback, btw.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Fondue

[elaine567]

Hi everyone!

 

Thank you for reading.

 

I'm a 29 year old man dating a 26 year old woman. Our relationship is already over 3 and a half years old. We've been discussing marriage and likely will be pursuing that path in the future. The only major issue I'm seeing right now is were both " on the fence" about offspring. She's leaning towards having them, I am leaning towards the other direction. I know this is something incredibly important to resolve and be on the same page about, so I plan to completely hash this out before making any huge decisions/commitments.

 

 

You have already spent 3.5 years with this girl, so this baby conversation needs to be had very soon before you waste another 3.5 years of this girl's life to then tell her you don't really want kids at all. At 30 she will be all ready to have her kids with you... 7 years completely wasted... and she has to start again from scratch...

 

I guess she is only "on the fence", as you are not keen and if you were on board with having kids you would both be well on your way to marriage and kids.

 

I am all for people who do not want kids to voice their opinion as that way people can pair up with others who have equal expectations.

 

BUT you are stringing this girl along.

YOU don't want kids, you are absolutely terrified she could get pregnant and that doesn't exactly shout out potential father material to me, now or in the future.

Guys who really want kids at some point, say things like "If it happens it happens", not things like "Putting yourself in a situation where you can only lose is stupid."

 

So you need to tell your gf that and not let her waste her time thinking she can somehow persuade you sometime down the line to have the kids she wants.

[joseb]

This thread is pretty shocking to me.

 

How on earth can you even consider marrying a woman you think might plan an "oops" so that she can snare you into unwanted fatherhood?

 

I can't imagine any decent woman behaving this way.

 

Well I know a lot of guys who had kids despite not talking about it while supposedly on bc, the only reason I can see for it is that a pretty high percentage of women do exactly this.

 

They probably don't see it as black and white as "snaring some guy into fatherhood". More just giving them a nudge. Especially if they say stuff like they are on the fence.

 

I've always been explicit and clear about not wanting kids, yet still lots of partners I've been with have pulled the old "Oh let's just do it without a condom" routine. Biological urges can be pretty strong.

 

OP it sounds to be that you really don't want kids. But you are saying you are on the fence so as to keep this relationship. If this is true, you might want to consider setting your gf free to find someone who shares what she wants.

Edited March 15, 2017 by joseb

[introverted1]

The thing is, BCP rarely fails. I mean, the failure rate is infinitesimal. It's way more effective than condoms.

 

When people say that BCP fails, this means the pill wasn't taken on time, or it was vomited up, or taken with antibiotics, etc.

 

So, to me at least, it is a trust issue: can you rely upon your gf to take the pill correctly. Because you are far more likely to post that she fell pregnant when you two were using condoms alone than when using BCP alone. And yet you wouldn't object to using condoms only.

 

That's what leads me to think there is more going on here.

 

p.s. I am a "hope for the best but expect the worst" type of person, so I would be very leery of having sex with someone whose ideas about babies didn't align with my own. I understand that, as a woman, I have all the cards, so to speak, in the sense that I can choose to have the baby, abort, place for adoption, etc., but this is a hollow comfort -- I for sure wouldn't want to find myself in a position where I was pregnant and my partner wasn't on the same page with me about what to do next. I think you and your gf need to have a conversation about "what if" irrespective of your decision to use condoms while she's on bcp. It might even help you (or her) clarify your feelings about children in the future.

[Fondue]

You are three years deep, and “on the fence” is what you still have. What do you need? Three more years? What if after 6 years together, she decides YES I really want children, and you decide NO.

 

Then what? Part ways, she has to try to find someone else who she is compatible with and also wants children? Then spend a few more years, engagement marriage etc.

 

If after 3 years you do not know. When will you know? How much time is going to be invested before it is determined if you two are compatible on a fundamental issue?

I did some research on the subject before hand, and people typically said, "you're always allowed to change your mind."

 

Now, I think that's 100% true. And you don't want to ever "force" someone into something they don't want, but I also understand that there are certain limitations in that... It isn't fair to hold onto information that you know.

 

If I knew 100% certainty that I didn't want children, I would get my ass to the doctor and get a vasectomy. I would also immediately let my SO know as well. But I'm not 100% sure. When I see some little dude/tte with their family walking on the city street, I think: "that thing is kinda cool. I'm pretty sure I can teach it a lot of great things." But then I immediately remember all the effort and nonsense and headaches that goes ALONG with all the good ****, and I immediately think, "nope. DOn't think that's for me."

 

They say as you get older you'll be "okay" with it, and then eventually the desire sinks in. I'm OPEN to that idea. But I'm not sure if it ever will happen or any time soon. So... I kinda have to repeat myself: I'm on the fence.

 

So - Are you REALLY on the fence about this? Or is it easier to tell her you are on the fence?

 

What would your reaction be if she "accidentally" got pregnant? What is the game plan if that does happen?

 

My husband and I are pro-choice. Have you had a similar discussion with your GF of three years?

 

First, your life sounds fantastic. I want that. Especially the freedom to travel whenever I want. Hell yah.

 

With that said, I think I AM on the fence. I really do. Part of me has an urge, but the RATIONALE side of me is, "**** thatttttttttttt." I think the childfree life is gorgeous and that's a huge, huge, HUGE pull to me not wanting any offspring. It seems so ****ing liberating.

 

I know we're both absolutely pro-choice. But despite that, we only lightly discussed what we do IF IT HAPPENS TO US. I tried to approach this conversation with her a few times because of our pregnancy scares, but she wasn't really open to talking about it. She DID say that her mother once told her she had an abortion. Apparently her mom always regretted that decision. So my SO said, "I'm not sure if I can go through with it, knowing that my mom was so depressed about it afterward and never really seemed to get over it..."

 

So I think I really know what THAT means.

[introverted1]

Well I know a lot of guys who had kids despite not talking about it while supposedly on bc, the only reason I can see for it is that a pretty high percentage of women do exactly this.

 

They probably don't see it as black and white as "snaring some guy into fatherhood". More just giving them a nudge. Especially if they say stuff like they are on the fence.

 

I find this appalling. And I very much see it as snaring some guy into unplanned (and possibly unwanted) fatherhood.

 

If the man wanted children and the woman didn't and he poked pin holes into the condoms that would also be despicable.

 

It's completely immoral, imo. Maybe one of the worst betrayals possible.

[elaine567]

When I see some little dude/tte with their family walking on the city street, I think: "that thing is kinda cool. I'm pretty sure I can teach it a lot of great things." But then I immediately remember all the effort and nonsense and headaches that goes ALONG with all the good ****, and I immediately think, "nope. Don't think that's for me."

 

With that said, I think I AM on the fence. I really do. Part of me has an urge, but the RATIONALE side of me is, "**** thatttttttttttt." I think the childfree life is gorgeous and that's a huge, huge, HUGE pull to me not wanting any offspring. It seems so ****ing liberating.

 

 

I am not sure what kind of a fence you think you are on, but to me you sound 99% against having kids and 1% swayed by the cute kids you see sometimes on the street...

 

1% of me thinks owning a cheetah would be cool, but 99% of me thinks that would be a very stupid idea.

I do not think I am "on the fence" about owning a cheetah though...

[CaliforniaGirl]

^ I totally want a cheetah.

 

OP, did these scares happen while she was on the pill or with the condoms?

 

If while on the pill, did you immediately start using the condoms?

[joseb]

I find this appalling. And I very much see it as snaring some guy into unplanned (and possibly unwanted) fatherhood.

 

If the man wanted children and the woman didn't and he poked pin holes into the condoms that would also be despicable.

 

It's completely immoral, imo. Maybe one of the worst betrayals possible.

 

I agree, I'm not saying it's good, but I am saying it's not unusual.

[Fondue]

You have already spent 3.5 years with this girl, so this baby conversation needs to be had very soon before you waste another 3.5 years of this girl's life to then tell her you don't really want kids at all. At 30 she will be all ready to have her kids with you... 7 years completely wasted... and she has to start again from scratch...

 

I guess she is only "on the fence", as you are not keen and if you were on board with having kids you would both be well on your way to marriage and kids.

 

I am all for people who do not want kids to voice their opinion as that way people can pair up with others who have equal expectations.

 

BUT you are stringing this girl along.

YOU don't want kids, you are absolutely terrified she could get pregnant and that doesn't exactly shout out potential father material to me, now or in the future.

Guys who really want kids at some point, say things like "If it happens it happens", not things like "Putting yourself in a situation where you can only lose is stupid."

 

So you need to tell your gf that and not let her waste her time thinking she can somehow persuade you sometime down the line to have the kids she wants.

 

I really don't feel like I'm stringing her along. I been pretty open about my stance on the subject since it first came up years ago. I'm hesitant as **** as she absolutely knows this.

 

She was always like, "yah, I dunno. I could go one way or the other.And even if I would, it wouldn't be until 30 or later." It wasn't until probably this summer that she started to lean toward "yes." I only feel it as a very soft yes because she made a joke that our kids would look good because they'd be mix.

 

I don't think I'm just tucking her along, to be honest. I'm not outwardly lying to her to make her stay with me. That's ****ed up and awful.

e thing is, BCP rarely fails. I mean, the failure rate is infinitesimal. It's way more effective than condoms.

 

When people say that BCP fails, this means the pill wasn't taken on time, or it was vomited up, or taken with antibiotics, etc.

 

So, to me at least, it is a trust issue: can you rely upon your gf to take the pill correctly. Because you are far more likely to post that she fell pregnant when you two were using condoms alone than when using BCP alone. And yet you wouldn't object to using condoms only.

 

That's what leads me to think there is more going on here.

 

p.s. I am a "hope for the best but expect the worst" type of person, so I would be very leery of having sex with someone whose ideas about babies didn't align with my own. I understand that, as a woman, I have all the cards, so to speak, in the sense that I can choose to have the baby, abort, place for adoption, etc., but this is a hollow comfort -- I for sure wouldn't want to find myself in a position where I was pregnant and my partner wasn't on the same page with me about what to do next. I think you and your gf need to have a conversation about "what if" irrespective of your decision to use condoms while she's on bcp. It might even help you (or her) clarify your feelings about children in the future.

I'm hoping we can discuss it this weekend. Which is exactly why I'm doing my homework and asking for help/advice/input/opinions.

 

Like your posts, they're very helpful. Because I think you reaction (*lack of trust*) is exactly what I need to learn so I can make sure this conversation goes well.

 

It apparently fails quite frequently, as stated by this poster earlier in this thread:

As someone who never wants kids - keep using the condoms.

 

Birth control is not 100% I know plenty of women who have become pregnant on it. As a female, I know I always have the final say - I would be so freaked about involuntary parenthood if I was a guy.

 

 

Well I know a lot of guys who had kids despite not talking about it while supposedly on bc, the only reason I can see for it is that a pretty high percentage of women do exactly this.

 

They probably don't see it as black and white as "snaring some guy into fatherhood". More just giving them a nudge. Especially if they say stuff like they are on the fence.

 

Happened to my cousin for sure. Maybe to my dad. So... I got some hangups about this....

[joseb]

But then I immediately remember all the effort and nonsense and headaches that goes ALONG with all the good ****, and I immediately think, "nope. DOn't think that's for me."

 

They say as you get older you'll be "okay" with it, and then eventually the desire sinks in. I'm OPEN to that idea. But I'm not sure if it ever will happen or any time soon. So... I kinda have to repeat myself: I'm on the fence.

 

 

You don;t sound like you are on the fence. If so, then I am too. But I know deep down I don't want kids. Is it 100% sure? No. But as close as makes no difference. The way you write, I can tell that you are the same.

Be honest with yourself and your GF.

[RecentChange]

 

I know we're both absolutely pro-choice. But despite that, we only lightly discussed what we do IF IT HAPPENS TO US. I tried to approach this conversation with her a few times because of our pregnancy scares, but she wasn't really open to talking about it. She DID say that her mother once told her she had an abortion. Apparently her mom always regretted that decision. So my SO said, "I'm not sure if I can go through with it, knowing that my mom was so depressed about it afterward and never really seemed to get over it..."

 

So I think I really know what THAT means.

 

There are many people that are pro-choice, yet know it's not right for them.

 

Kinda like having kids, this is a black and white issue. There is no grey area.

 

What does that mean? That she isn't comfortable with the idea of terminating her own pregnancy should that happen. The fact that she has had scares, and still isn't sure what she would do is very telling.

 

I think her desire to have children is stronger than she has alluded to.

[Fondue]

There are many people that are pro-choice, yet know it's not right for them.

 

Kinda like having kids, this is a black and white issue. There is no grey area.

 

What does that mean? That she isn't comfortable with the idea of terminating her own pregnancy should that happen. The fact that she has had scares, and still isn't sure what she would do is very telling.

 

I think her desire to have children is stronger than she has alluded to.

Reading that back to myself-- yah... Sounds like it, huh?

 

Reading everyone's replies and stuff in this thread, I think I really gotta have conversation with her this weekend.

 

THanks again everyone.

 

EDIT: Forgot this response:

^ I totally want a cheetah.

 

OP, did these scares happen while she was on the pill or with the condoms?

 

If while on the pill, did you immediately start using the condoms?

 

Both happened when we were using condoms. Most recent happened like 2 months ago. And the one before that was probably a little over a year ago.

[preraph]

I agree with Recent Change that there are many pro-choice who would nonetheless not choose an abortion for themselves but merely respect the bodies and choice of others in varying circumstances.

 

You cannot assume she will abort. She won't. She wants a child.

[StormyEyes]

Fondue, I have to say I think you are pretty awesome for putting so much thought in to this and being so open as to listen to and consider everyone's opinions. I hope that your discussion with your gf goes well.

 

On a side note, if you have the means, I'd start seeing the world and going on adventures now. Maybe in a few years you will decide you do want to bring a child in to the world. If they are as mature and thoughtful as you are, I think you would find yourself with a new and awesome travel companion. You could show him or her all of the places you've discovered, seeing them for the first time again through their eyes, all while raising a true citizen of the world. Just a thought.

[Fondue]

Fondue, I have to say I think you are pretty awesome for putting so much thought in to this and being so open as to listen to and consider everyone's opinions. I hope that your discussion with your gf goes well.

 

On a side note, if you have the means, I'd start seeing the world and going on adventures now. Maybe in a few years you will decide you do want to bring a child in to the world. If they are as mature and thoughtful as you are, I think you would find yourself with a new and awesome travel companion. You could show him or her all of the places you've discovered, seeing them for the first time again through their eyes, all while raising a true citizen of the world. Just a thought.

I genuinely appreciate hearing(reading?) that.

 

Thank you.

[StormyEyes]

Any updates?

[Els]

I don't see why she would think it's about you not trusting her, unless that IS the reason, in which case it would obviously be a dealbreaker and she would likely have picked it up from your other choices/actions. Two methods of contraception are better than one unless you want to be parents in the near future, full stop.

[stillafool]

Never trust anyone with 18 years of your financial life. You are right to use a condom regardless of what she says and to protect your financial future. This woman may not end up being your wife and you don't want to go into a marriage with a baby. Also a lot of single women who have their shyt together will not marry a man who already has a child out of wedlock.

[CaliforniaGirl]

I don't see why she would think it's about you not trusting her, unless that IS the reason, in which case it would obviously be a dealbreaker and she would likely have picked it up from your other choices/actions. Two methods of contraception are better than one unless you want to be parents in the near future, full stop.

 

If this were the case then they'd already have been using two methods, one way or another. They weren't initially when she was on the pill, so he obviously trusted the first time she was on the pill...why not now? Then, when he was using condoms, they weren't using a backup from that, from what he's said, anyway. (Not even spermicide?) It's only NOW that he insists on the condoms as a second method. So yes, that does point to a trust issue, or being more worried than previously.

 

He states his worry is because of pregnancy scares, but those scares were with the condom, not the BCPs (yet it's now the BCPs he doesn't trust and needs his previous failure method to use as a backup?).

 

It seems obvious it's about him having initially trusted the pill because there had been no scares AND she hadn't brought up wanting children; then, even with failures (they were a year apart, he didn't immediately ask for a different method of birth control), he continued to trust the method he had control over; now with just her having the control over the birth control plus the children comments/obvious disappointment on her part, he's suddenly worried.

[Els]

If this were the case then they'd already have been using two methods, one way or another. They weren't initially when she was on the pill, so he obviously trusted the first time she was on the pill...why not now? Then, when he was using condoms, they weren't using a backup from that, from what he's said, anyway. (Not even spermicide?) It's only NOW that he insists on the condoms as a second method. So yes, that does point to a trust issue, or being more worried than previously.

 

He states his worry is because of pregnancy scares, but those scares were with the condom, not the BCPs (yet it's now the BCPs he doesn't trust and needs his previous failure method to use as a backup?).

 

It seems obvious it's about him having initially trusted the pill because there had been no scares AND she hadn't brought up wanting children; then, even with failures (they were a year apart, he didn't immediately ask for a different method of birth control), he continued to trust the method he had control over; now with just her having the control over the birth control plus the children comments/obvious disappointment on her part, he's suddenly worried.

 

I think he said she got on the pill recently not for BC reasons, but for menstrual problems, which is fairly common. Given that he has become comfortable with using condoms, I don't see why he should be expected to stop doing so just because she is choosing to go on the pill.

 

That being said, even though I don't see any issues with his actions per se, I agree that the way in which he's talking about everything does sound rather dodgy. Hopefully they get everything out during their planned conversation.