How much does God really "control"?

[Ronni_W]

I suspect that the Lord can direct things to the final desired outcome

Yes, of course He can - but it has to be done in accordance with the Will of God and the Law of God, most especially the Law of Free Will -- so, we have to

ASK before we can or will receive the Lord's Direction, Protection, Forgiveness, Instruction, Guidance. Because of the Law of Free Will (and also the

Law of Cause and Effect/ Karma), these things are NOT automatic...even though they are freely, unconditionally and infinitely available to all who ask.

[jamili]

[aurelius99]

The correct (and biblical) answer to this question is not popular. Even most Christians will shrug at this idea--all the while claiming to believe the Bible.

 

God controls everything. Literally everything. The Bible even says that a leaf cannot fall to the ground without his awareness.

 

However, there is a distinction between God's ACTIVE will and PERMISSIVE will. God, for reasons unknown, allows some pretty awful things in the current, temporary stats. The best example would be Satan, himself, and all his evil schemes. God even granted the nations of the earth to him! Why!? I'm waiting on an answer just like you. But the Bible is CLEAR on this. The world is currently Satan's, and will remain so until the second coming.

 

God's active will refers to those things he directly causes to happen. Did you know your eternal destination (heaven or hell) is HIS choice and not yours? God chooses YOU, not the other way around. See Romans 9:22 for an explanation of this. Again, it's a highly unpopular belief even amongst Christians but it's the only completely biblical view. It completely defies human understanding and even our palate but we must seek the truth and not what sounds good and makes us feel good.

 

God is loving. He is merciful. But he is also "terrible" (Psalm 47:2) and a God to be feared. He is the center of all things, not you. His word goes, not yours. All false theology originates from a failure to recognize that God, not us, is the measure of all things. Our feelings on issues are irrelevant.

Edited February 22, 2017 by aurelius99

[Weezy1973]

God controls everything. Literally everything. The Bible even says that a leaf cannot fall to the ground without his awareness.

 

Yup, this is one very logical answer. The other logical answer being that God doesn't exist. Free will is an illusion either way.

[Ronni_W]

Free will is an illusion either way.

Then...who - or what external force or agent - is in charge of and controlling you and your mind, choices, decisions and actions?

 

Or, are you saying that we are all completely and utterly at the mercy and whim of an unpredictable Higher Power? .

[Ronni_W]

God controls everything. Literally everything. The Bible even says that a leaf cannot fall to the ground without his awareness.

God’s inherent awareness of everything does not mean that God controls everything.

 

The idea that God ‘allows’ (or does not allow) certain or specific things to happen on Earth – whether good or bad – does not properly or adequately take into account

God’s decision to bestow upon us, the people of Earth, free will – and, for that matter, self-awareness.

 

If God really wanted to control everything or if God had originally planned to control everything, then giving us free will – that allows or makes it possible for us to choose

to go against His Will and His Plan and His Vision – would just have been a monumental blunder on His part, don’t you think?

 

The ‘granting of the nations of Earth’ refers to God giving us – even in our lesser-lower or fallen consciousness – ‘dominion over the Earth’; which, Earth is the God-created, God-given environment or ‘schoolroom’ in which we must learn how to come back into oneness with our God through the Consciousness of the Mind of Christ – which we attain by using our free will to consciously and willingly decide and choose to put down the mind of hatred, bitterness and spiritual ignorance, pride and arrogance; the mind of Antichrist or Satan.

 

It is only through our own lesser-lower minds or consciousness, individually and collectively, that it can be said that “the world is currently Satan’s” – the ‘satans’ in the piece are all those individuals of Earth who refuse to come up higher in consciousness. And, it is only through the raising up of our own minds or consciousness – by individually and collectively, gradually ‘letting the old man (the carnal ego) die’ and in its place ‘putting on the Mind of Christ’ – that the Second Coming shall appear. WE are in control of all of this, through our own free-will choices and decisions; which is God’s Plan from the Beginning and why He gave us self-awareness, free will and dominion over the Earth.

 

 

Jesus’ God was purely a God of Love, Mercy and Forgiveness – true Christians believe in this God, not in Moses’ God. (References to a jealous and vengeful God are, in reality, veiled references to the impersonal, immutable and exacting nature of the Laws of God, which are, obviously, separate and distinct from the NATURE of God Himself.

The descriptions were given in the past to a peoples in a particular state of consciousness and who, at that time, could not fathom a higher Teaching – whereas we, today, have a higher collective consciousness that can fathom ideas and concepts of scientifically-accurate laws that govern our physical world and our spiritual lives.)

 

Yes, God – and not man – is the measure of all things; yet, in exactly the same manner that Jesus did, man must measure up in order to be accepted into Heaven.

Here, again, it is our individual free will choice – not God’s. God will neither force us to be good (just so that He can take us into Heaven), nor to be bad (just so that He can cast us into ‘hell’).

 

Throughout both the Old and New Testaments, the Message is often veiled or given in a parable – there are various levels to the Teachings for those with ‘eyes to see’ and ‘ears to hear’; thus, to think that one has the highest level of understanding available in any chapter or verse can actually serve to retard one’s personal spiritual growth, for, it leads one to stop seeking for the next-higher level of Truth

 

In Love and Light.

[Weezy1973]

Then...who - or what external force or agent - is in charge of and controlling you and your mind, choices, decisions and actions?

 

Or, are you saying that we are all completely and utterly at the mercy and whim of an unpredictable Higher Power? .

 

I'm saying for those that believe in a God, the logical conclusion would be that they are completely at the mercy of said said Higher Power.

 

For those of us that are non-believers, we tend to debate nature (i.e. biology) vs. nurture (i.e. environment) when it comes to our behaviour.

 

And then of course there are those that believe in astrology...

[preraph]

If I was God and I had created life on Earth, I'd be shaking my head at all those people waiting around for fate to hand them things on a silver platter and just waiting idly and wistfully praying for things that they themselves could control, because to my way of Godly thinking, "Hey, I gave you life and a body and a brain. Now you expect me to spend all my precious time micromanaging you? That's what your brain is for! Get busy and direct your life! A nice thank you once in awhile, however, will be well received."

[Ronni_W]

I'm saying for those that believe in a God, the logical conclusion would be that they are completely at the mercy of said said Higher Power.

 

For those of us that are non-believers, we tend to debate nature (i.e. biology) vs. nurture (i.e. environment) when it comes to our behaviour.

 

And then of course there are those that believe in astrology...

Weezy1973,

Are you okay with unnecessarily limiting those of us who believe in God and also believe in our self-governing power and also believe in science, nature, biology and quantum physics? (There actually is also a branch of study of 'spiritual astrology' - purportedly also used by 'the Three Wise Men' to locate, through following 'the Star', Baby Jesus --- but this is not in my wheelhouse. .)

 

Now, just because I believe in God - which, to me, is a trite thing to say - does not mean that I even vaguely feel like God's victim or slave or puppet. (Or however one would feel if their sense of identity had them 'completely at the mercy of' some external Being or deity or person or force or agent.)

[Tanyasinclair]

I would like to toss a question in here for consideration, and I would like to hear what you guys think. ^^;

 

Do you think there is any possibility that.... when human beings say that God is in control of everything, (and perhaps, by extension, that the devil is responsible for everything bad/evil that happens,) that perhaps part of this could be considered an attempt on behalf of humans to deny personal responsibility and shift the blame to another source?

 

In the Bible, it even says that the first thing Adam did was blame both God and Eve for his choice, his actions, all in one swoop. Basically, "It was the woman you gave me who told me to eat the fruit." Depending on how you read it, that could be seen as a direct accusatory to God, possibly for giving you something that ended up being somehow flawed or fallible, while also deflecting personal responsibility and also blaming it on Eve.

 

And in turn, Eve blamed it all on the snake, or Satan.

 

And it seems like this is pretty much anything that anyone does when they've been caught doing something wrong, and especially when they're humiliated, upset with themselves, and/or afraid of the consequences. They even hid from God when they never would have had any reason to fear or hide before this point.

[UpwardForward]

I have had advance warnings from God, prior to most of the bad things that have happened to me. Circumstances within my control, and following my bad judgement, stubbornness - or not listening to Him.

[Weezy1973]

Are you okay with unnecessarily limiting those of us who believe in God and also believe in our self-governing power and also believe in science, nature, biology and quantum physics?

 

I'm saying that if you understand that human behaviour is caused by a combination of environmental and genetic / biological determinants, you can't also believe in free will. Or God controlling people. Or astrology controlling people. Those are mutually exclusive ideas.

 

Now, just because I believe in God - which, to me, is a trite thing to say - does not mean that I even vaguely feel like God's victim or slave or puppet. (Or however one would feel if their sense of identity had them 'completely at the mercy of' some external Being or deity or person or force or agent.)

 

That's why I called free will an illusion. We all feel like we're free to make whatever choices we want. But our choices are not free. They are caused. We live in a cause and effect universe.

 

 

But if you believe in God you can look at it this way:

 

God is omniscient. He knows all. He knows how it all is going to end. He knows the choices people are going to make and he knows who will ultimately go to Heaven and who won't. In His eyes this must all be predetermined because he created the universe already knowing the ending.

 

To us the choices seem free, but to God, he's like "ahhhhh I KNEW Ronni W would be posting on LoveShack; totally saw that coming!"

[Ronni_W]

, you can't also believe in free will. Or God controlling people. Or astrology controlling people. Those are mutually exclusive ideas.

They're only mutually exclusive if one believes that those are the ONLY influencing factors and determinants - and if there isn't an acknowledgement, understanding or acceptance of spiritual concepts like Free Will, Karma (Cause and Effect), reincarnation, etc.

 

We live in a cause and effect universe.

I agree. The all-important difference is that I say the Cause is within, while you say, if I'm understanding correctly (which, of course, I may not be),

that the cause is outside of you.

 

But if you believe in God you can look at it this way:

 

God is omniscient. He knows all. He knows how it all is going to end. He knows the choices people are going to make and he knows who will ultimately go to Heaven and who won't. In His eyes this must all be predetermined because he created the universe already knowing the ending.

Fair enough...believers in God most certainly could look at it that way. But, if they did, then they are either not taking into account the Law of Free Will - or they have

a very poor or misguided understanding of it.

 

In any case, after this point we are just going to be discussing or arguing over words and interpretations of words -- and going way off topic in the process.

 

Have a terrific rest of day,

Ronni

[aurelius99]

The truth of the matter is that reality cannot be fully understood by human logic. There is a limitation even to the most brilliant philosopher. Certain things will never be understood, nor were they meant to be.

 

The Bible makes it clear that everything is pre-destined. Yet at the same time, this very Bible commands us to make the right choices morally and spiritually--as if it's up to us. So on one hand it supports the idea of fate, but on the other hand it's narrative is one of apparent free-will.

 

Is this a contradiction? To human logic, yes. But I take it on faith that they can somehow both operate simultaneously--each one is completely true on its own yet still accommodates the other. *mind blown*

[Tanyasinclair]

The truth of the matter is that reality cannot be fully understood by human logic. There is a limitation even to the most brilliant philosopher. Certain things will never be understood, nor were they meant to be.

 

The Bible makes it clear that everything is pre-destined. Yet at the same time, this very Bible commands us to make the right choices morally and spiritually--as if it's up to us. So on one hand it supports the idea of fate, but on the other hand it's narrative is one of apparent free-will.

 

Is this a contradiction? To human logic, yes. But I take it on faith that they can somehow both operate simultaneously--each one is completely true on its own yet still accommodates the other. *mind blown*

 

The only thing that I can think to say in response to this is.... well, I'm not sure if this is exactly on-topic, or if it fits as a response to what you said here, but....

 

There is something that a friend told me long ago that I still keep in my heart, because ever since she said it, it remained burned in my memory. When I was telling her that it seemed like God had a way of answering my prayers by giving me *WHAT* I wanted, (at least technically in some cases) but it was not how I wanted it or the way I wanted it in some cases, or it wasn't my first choice even if it was still a direct answer.

 

What she said to me, the thing that has stuck with me all this time, was this: "One thing I've found is that God likes irony."

 

And ever since then.... I keep carrying around the word "irony" in my mind in that specific context. Whenever something happens, whenever it seems like the way is being paved for me in a way where.... I don't like part of it, or the way it is happening was not my preferred choice or what I would have originally asked for, and YET it still ends up pushing me in the right direction and being good for me in the long run somehow.... I keep mentally telling myself that it's "ironic", and therefore part of God's will.

 

So.... in my flow of thinking and operating, I guess there are often two things that I look for when it comes to determining God's will and the flow of my life, the PLAN for my life, (and.... even if it might not be considered direct control, it could definitely be considered divine influence,) I look for anything that could fall under the categories of "humility/humbleness" and "irony", where I use the definition of "irony" in the context I mentioned above. (I used to confuse one of my friends if I said the word "ironic" in a conversation once in a rare while, because they thought I was trying to say I found something in a serious situation funny, which.... was not exactly what I meant in that context.)

 

It is also said by many Christian speakers/teachers and, I think, scholars that God's ways are not our ways, which.... can also be interpreted to mean that you can aim for some things in your life that feel right, even if the people around you think you're making bad choices or that you're insane, because God already knows everything that is gonna happen and therefore lowly humans shouldn't go around acting like they know how you should live/run your life better than Him. (Even if this also means you shouldn't run off and do something crazy on an impulse or a feel-good vibe, either.)

[aurelius99]

God does have a sense of irony. The best example is how God came as a human being to his OWN people...who were given prophecies and were EXPECTING him...yet he was rejected.

[Tanyasinclair]

God does have a sense of irony. The best example is how God came as a human being to his OWN people...who were given prophecies and were EXPECTING him...yet he was rejected.

 

I was once told by one of the primary people who taught me about God and the Bible that part of this was because some of these people were expecting a powerful warrior to come and defeat all of their enemies with a mighty hand.

 

I guess the irony here is that Jesus actually did defeat the most powerful enemy of all through sacrifice. The way I understand it is that the sacrifice, death and resurrection removed the penalty of sin, which also meant that the devil and hell itself no longer has any hold over humanity unless humans choose to reject Christ.

 

So in a way... the mortal rejection and Crucifixion of Christ lead to the fulfillment of prophecy and God's will being carried out in a manner of speaking.... while preserving humanity's free will and ability to reject or choose God as we see fit.

 

And... I guess I'm still a bit confused about something in general. Is it really true that God chose certain people first? If so, does that mean He goes out of His way to exert more influence over those that He knows would be more receptive to Him.... or could it be said that He only goes to those who ask Him to be more involved with their daily/personal lives?

 

I also remember reading something on a Catholic blog once, that supposedly quoted something from the Pope... I dont' remember it exactly, so I can't quote it precisely, but it said something about how God made His presence known to ALL humans one way or another, so that.... even at the moment of death, even the most ignorant or adament non-believer would glimpse His spirit and is given a chance to be spared from hell. And if the person accepts Him on the spot, sometimes it leads to a truly glorious moment where the person will go straight to Heaven without even going to Purgatory. But there are still some cases where someone will reject God outright or push Him away.

 

That was according to that source at least, and I may have recited it poorly, but I think it does have something to do with God's will and how much He may influence or have a say in things. I'm not entirely sure if it's true or if I should agree with it fully, I just think it is very interesting and I hope it is true because I want to believe that anyone at all could be given a chance in the end to reach Heaven, that God would not choose to outright shun anyone who refused to walk in Him during the majority of their life on earth.

[aurelius99]

I was once told by one of the primary people who taught me about God and the Bible that part of this was because some of these people were expecting a powerful warrior to come and defeat all of their enemies with a mighty hand.

 

I guess the irony here is that Jesus actually did defeat the most powerful enemy of all through sacrifice. The way I understand it is that the sacrifice, death and resurrection removed the penalty of sin, which also meant that the devil and hell itself no longer has any hold over humanity unless humans choose to reject Christ.

 

Very true.

 

And... I guess I'm still a bit confused about something in general. Is it really true that God chose certain people first? If so, does that mean He goes out of His way to exert more influence over those that He knows would be more receptive to Him.... or could it be said that He only goes to those who ask Him to be more involved with their daily/personal lives?

 

This goes back to the issue of fate versus free will. My belief, based on everything I've read in the Bible, is that this life isn't so much about us choosing God--or not choosing God. Rather, it's a display of God's power and sovereignty to show that he can cause certain people (his predestined elect) to love and serve him, even though the human heart is sinful and wicked. This also implies that he has predestined certain people to hell. I understand this is not a popular view, but it's the only one you can have if you believe god is all-sovereign.

 

This life is not about us or our choices. It's about God and his purposes. As it says in Roman 9:22, God might be choosing to display a contrast between those fated to heaven versus those fated to hell--so that his mercy might be revealed.

Again, this sounds horrible to human understanding. But who are we? God can do whatever he wants. He defines the rules and what is acceptable. We are on trial, not him.

 

 

I also remember reading something on a Catholic blog once, that supposedly quoted something from the Pope... I dont' remember it exactly, so I can't quote it precisely, but it said something about how God made His presence known to ALL humans one way or another, so that.... even at the moment of death, even the most ignorant or adament non-believer would glimpse His spirit and is given a chance to be spared from hell. And if the person accepts Him on the spot, sometimes it leads to a truly glorious moment where the person will go straight to Heaven without even going to Purgatory. But there are still some cases where someone will reject God outright or push Him away.

 

That was according to that source at least, and I may have recited it poorly, but I think it does have something to do with God's will and how much He may influence or have a say in things. I'm not entirely sure if it's true or if I should agree with it fully, I just think it is very interesting and I hope it is true because I want to believe that anyone at all could be given a chance in the end to reach Heaven, that God would not choose to outright shun anyone who refused to walk in Him during the majority of their life on earth.

 

Biblically speaking, you are best off ignoring the Pope and Catholicism. There is no such thing as pergatory. If perfatory exists, then Christ's sacrifice was not sufficient. Period. End of debate.

[Ronni_W]

The way I understand it is that the sacrifice, death and resurrection removed the penalty of sin,

Tanyasinclair,

What you are referring to as 'the penalty of sin' is more accurately called God's Law of Cause and Effect (or 'Karma'). The only way to avoid it is to not sin.

Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection did not override God's Law. We, individually, still have to choose to not sin - otherwise we will be subject to 'the penalty of sin'.

This is also stated as, "...whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Nobody is exempt from this, regardless of Jesus' attainment when he was on Earth.

 

If you are open to progressive revelation, this links to Q-&-A-type articles on Jesus' Mission.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Ronni_W
spelling

[Ronni_W]

Biblically speaking, you are best off ignoring the Pope and Catholicism.

If you are open to progressive revelation, this is very well explained in the article 'The Catholic Church Does Not Represent Christ'.

[aurelius99]

Tanyasinclair,

What you are referring to as 'the penalty of sin' is more accurately called God's Law of Cause and Effect (or 'Karma'). The only way to avoid it is to not sin.

Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection did not override God's Law. We, individually, still have to choose to not sin - otherwise we will be subject to 'the penalty of sin'.

This is also stated as, "...whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Nobody is exempt from this, regardless of Jesus' attainment when he was on Earth.

 

If you are open to progressive revelation, this links to Q-&-A-type articles on Jesus' Mission.

 

Not all suffering and misfortune is the result of sin. Some is, some isn't. Refer to the gospel story of the blind man. People asked Jesus whose sin was responsible for him being born blind. Jesus said nobody's. Rather he was born blind to create an opportunity for God's mercy to be shown---then Jesus healed him.

 

If you fail to understand this theology, then you willl wind up with a mindset similar to Joel Osteen who basically espouses karma. He says do good and you receive good, do bad and receive bad. Unfortunately this isn't always true 100% of the time. Just look at Jesus. He was the only man without sin, yet he was killed as a criminal. And, as Paul says, the servants are not greater than the master and similar things would be done to us.

[Ronni_W]

Jesus' response about the man who was born blind was the only one that could be given to the consciousness of the peoples of that time; they simply did not have it to be able to fathom the spiritual aspects, workings and ramifications of 'Cause and Effect'. Indeed, we're still having problems with it, even still today. .

 

In more recent revelation, through the Living Word, it is made clear that Jesus did have some spiritual impurities to still resolve and balance -- not a lot, to be sure; for,

he already had a very high level of consciousness at birth; but, enough to be able to take embodiment on Earth -- and, which he did balance quite early on. However,

you are correct that Jesus' crucifixion had nothing to do with his Karma.

 

Thanks for giving me food for thought; much appreciated.

Ronni

[Tanyasinclair]

I have been thinking about posting this, though I've been hesitating to do so because I wasn't sure if it would be too off-topic for this thread.... I'm just also not really sure if this particular topic is worth starting a new thread over, especially since I think it does have something to do with the topic in this thread. ^^;

 

I think what's on my mind right here, right now, has more to do with free will of man (and the mind of mankind, and the circumstances of mankind, and etc) than God's will and God's control, but I think it still applies.

 

I'm not sure how to present my case here exactly, so let me simply state an example of my own invention:

 

George is angry at Amelia, and Amelia is angry at George. Why? Because George said something that hurt Amelia's feelings, and Amelia childishly retaliated by say... cutting up his favorite shirt with a pair of scissors.

 

Now I'm probably being a bit overly nitpicky and way over-analyzing here. But... first of all, we can say that George should never have hurt Amelia's feelings in the first place. Maybe you could even say that if he hadn't done that in the first place, this entire incident may not have happened. So... if you wanna look at it in a one-sided way, (especially as some tempramental females in a relationship might), one could say that if George had been nicer, or if he had held his temper, he would still have his favorite shirt.

 

However.... that also implies that George is somehow %100 responsible for the entire incident. When in reality, Amelia is the one who either chose, or allowed herself to give into an emotional (and rather spiteful) impulse, and she willfully destroyed his shirt.

 

But if you wanna back up one step further..... why did George say something that made her so upset in the first place? Was he just being a jerk, or was it because he had grown so irritated with the way she kept putting down his brother that he finally snapped?

 

Also.... if you wanna take the analysis to an even deeper and more thorough level....

 

Sometimes, when it comes to the human mind and the free will.... I feel like this is where it can get kinda tricky, especially depending on what level of extreme you want to take this thought process to, particularly when it comes to personal responsibility/what you can be held accountable for vs. what isn't really your fault. (And in the end, what God will judge you for after your life on earth is over.)

 

So, George made Amelia upset. Wasn't it completely justified for him to be angry after trying his best to be patient, to tolerate her, to say nothing at all about the way she goes on about his brother, to be NICE? He had every right to say his piece, and maybe she finally did push the wrong set of buttons in the wrong order to set him off, and he merely reacted according to his own personality, dealing with it in the way that he would deal with anyone who set him off that way. Maybe it could also be said that if someone couldn't deal with him reacting that way over that particular issue, they shouldn't be involved with him at all.

 

However, on the flip side, if you really want to take it to another extreme.... you could also say that his emotional reaction/response were completely wrong, because he completely invalidated what Amelia was saying, what she was feeling, and dismissed her.

 

So in the end... if you want to look at the human free will in this way... maybe you could say that George had every right to react the way he did because she was picking on his brother, but if she felt her beef was legitimate (maybe to her it was, maybe there is something about the brother that George is too close or too oblivious to see) then she also had every right to react the way she did, especially if she feels she has been ignored. (Though cutting up the shirt was probably taking things a bit far.)

 

....Somehow I feel like the point I'm trying to make here, or the question I wanted to present, ended up coming out very, very poorly and I could have probably found a much better example than that. ^^; Just....

 

Well, stuff like that (except on a much grander scale) happens every day in human lives, and...

 

Okay so... on the subject of God being in control, exerting His will, etc. This, vs. human free will, human emotion, etc.

 

God looks at the entire childish situation between George and Amelia. Unlike humans, He can also see the grand picture, because being timeless and omnipresent, He also got the privilege of seeing EVERYTHING that lead up to that incident... not only that, but He got to see what was going on in each of their lives before either of them ever met, how they grew up, how childhood incidents and each of their parents affected them and shaped them over the years, and how everything lead them to this moment.

 

Does God take all of this into account when He looks upon sin, or childish incidents? Does He care about the personal, individual psychology that leads people to their actions, state of mind, or attitude in the present? Does He care about the potential REASON behind said actions? Or does He just see things in black-and-white like, "You did wrong, so it was a sin"?

 

And how will all of this hold up in the afterlife, when all of us face our final judgements before entering our eternal home in heaven or hell?

 

Furthermore, let's take a look at one other issue here. Let's go back a couple of generations. Let's say that George's Great Grandmother once did something very, very stupid that somehow lead to a certain defensive attitude in her children, which was passed on through to the grandchildren, and so on, because it was a learned behavior... or because they felt the need to be defensive for the same or similar reasons. Does that mean George's Great Grandmother can also be held partially responsible for her sin playing a role in influencing a bad set of habits and behaviors down her line of descendents? Is she indirectly responsible for George blowing up at his wife and the destruction of that shirt?

 

I am asking this because I was taught that the reason why God is not going to judge anyone at all, not even everyone who is already in Heaven or Hell, because in a way no-one's work is done yet.

 

For example, Adam and Eve did the first sin..... and that sin is still reaping the consequences across billions of lives in our world, which means the result of their actions is still being played out on our temporal plane, and is still being recorded and observed by God and the Book of Life or whatnot.

 

Another example, Abraham and Sarah sinned by rushing ahead of God and having Abraham sire a child through Sarah's handmaiden, and that was the start of the Jewish/Muslim conflict in some ways. So by this logic, Sarah and Abraham have to wait until the final results of their actions from long ago are finished playing out, and then they will get final judgement/their final reward.

 

I hope this post made sense, and... yeah I'd like to hear your guys' thoughts. ^^;

[BC1980]

You should read about Sam Harris' ideas on free will. He basically thinks no one has complete free will.

[Ronni_W]

Tanyasinclair,

You are asking such great Spiritual questions! I also appreciate that it is helping me to consider and reconsider my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs; thanks for that.

 

Since there are so many sources for Spiritual information - pure and impure - it's always a struggle to assess which is what; to the extent that many people reject,

out of hand, some sources as being impure/false or a threat to the status quo or their comfort level, without actually bothering to give it even the most precursory of consideration -- which, of course, was exactly the mindset of the rabbis, scribes and Pharisees, against Jesus.

 

People don't like to 'let themselves be disturbed', psychologically or spiritually, even though this is the only way to raise up one's Spiritual Consciousness to 'put on

the Mind of Christ', and this is what Jesus sought to help also the rabbis, scribes and Pharisees do -- which they couldn't because they had completely closed off their minds (and hearts) to His new Teachings and thoughts.

 

I'm not sure if this article will be of any use or assistance to you - How free is free will? - nevertheless, it may be

 

In Love and Light.

 

I have been thinking about posting this, though I've been hesitating to do so because I wasn't sure if it would be too off-topic for this thread

PS: My interpretation of the guidelines is that, since this is your own thread that you started, you can steer the thread in whichever way you feel will help you gain insight into or clarity on whatever you started the thread about -- as I understand it, the thread-starter has broader leeway.