I'm starting to feel like men are hopeless, and I'm hopeless around them

[Gary335]

GC, since you helped me, I want to help you. That e-mail you want to send is too nice. Get rid of the part about enjoying more outings and having a great time. You'll send the wrong message, especially if this guy is as odd as he seems. That message he sent you creeps me out. I can understand trying to be a little humorous, but that's not the way to do it. You don't ever make a joke out of poisoning a woman. That's not funny at all. The fact that he touched your thigh while you were drunk is unsettling too. No decent guy is gonna do that either. And if your a lightweight, don't drink! I read so many threads here where the OP calls themselves a lightweight and got drunk. If you know you can't handle much alcohol, stay away from it!

Edited October 30, 2016 by Gary335

[lana-banana]

I'm shocked by the people shrugging this off. As much as I agree that this guy is probably not a predator and just super-awkward, the entire thing is an extended riff on sexual assault. It is beyond creepy, it is appalling. Even though he's unlikely to do you any harm you should absolutely email a copy of this letter to the program supervisor and politely explain you don't want to be alone with him again.* As for what you say to him? A polite but firm "not interested" will do.

 

GC, this has nothing to do with you. You did nothing wrong and this isn't your fault. You didn't do anything to give him any impression. This isn't even about dating or men in general. The world is full of decent, wonderful and available men (minus the one I'm marrying) who have enough social awareness not to do crap like this. Unfortunately, part of being a woman is encountering men who feel entitled to your attention and your affection. We've all gotten letters like that at one point or another; my friend got one when she was in training from a guy who tried to persuade her to leave her fiance! People can be dreadful. Please just try to see it as an isolated incident or a freak accident like a car crash. This just happened.

 

I'm so sorry this happened to you in a program you love. Please try to not let it spoil your enjoyment of it. Focus on what you love and be kind to yourself. We're all pulling for you.

 

 

* = advice to anyone, male or female, who ever feels the need to worry for their safety like this: communicate your concerns to someone and communicate them in writing. Always leave a paper trail!

[Zapbasket]

Okay, so four guys so far have agreed that that email was creepy. Thank you for giving me a glimmer of hope that a) I just might not suck with men and b) my instinct is right. My instinct tells me he is a total creep who maybe, and hopefully, will act decently when he is in a group situation and has NO opportunity to push the envelope. I think he is a creep for the aggregate of these reasons:

 

--on our FIRST social outing with this professional group, and with another person with us, he had the nerve to suggest this other person go hang out in the restroom so that he and I can be alone at the bar and he can kiss me

--he had his hand on my bare upper thigh, under my dress. I remember it clearly, even in my inebriated state. This was in my hotel room, where it was obvious that I was too inebriated to consent to anything physical.

--that email.

 

I mean, that email! Good Lord, what person in their right mind sends that to anyone? That's what my gut says. It's inexcusable.

 

So, I sent the email I proposed a few posts ago, and took off the line about having a great time. My hope is that now that he KNOWS I am not interested in him at all, he will fall back in line and act like a professional in our group. If he doesn't, then it's a good thing I have that email because I have something concrete to send to the program director if need be. Whether I do so or not will depend upon how he takes the news that he doesn't have a chance with me.

 

And I am going to be very careful NEVER to have more than a drink or two at any future outings with this group. Nor will I ever allow myself to be one on one with him again.

 

So, this just leaves me with this exhausted, forlorn feeling that there just are not any truly decent guys out there. Guys--would you ever send a woman an email like this, thinking it's funny or cute or whatever? A woman you barely know, who seems fun and nice and you're interested in.

 

Sometimes I wonder if the fact that I am typically very open and animated and love to laugh sends the wrong idea to people who are maybe socially awkward and a little devious. I'm just SO OVER meeting creepy guys, in any context.

[Zapbasket]

I'm shocked by the people shrugging this off. As much as I agree that this guy is probably not a predator and just super-awkward, the entire thing is an extended riff on sexual assault. It is beyond creepy, it is appalling. Even though he's unlikely to do you any harm you should absolutely email a copy of this letter to the program supervisor and politely explain you don't want to be alone with him again.* As for what you say to him? A polite but firm "not interested" will do.

 

GC, this has nothing to do with you. You did nothing wrong and this isn't your fault. You didn't do anything to give him any impression. This isn't even about dating or men in general. The world is full of decent, wonderful and available men (minus the one I'm marrying) who have enough social awareness not to do crap like this. Unfortunately, part of being a woman is encountering men who feel entitled to your attention and your affection. We've all gotten letters like that at one point or another; my friend got one when she was in training from a guy who tried to persuade her to leave her fiance! People can be dreadful. Please just try to see it as an isolated incident or a freak accident like a car crash. This just happened.

 

I'm so sorry this happened to you in a program you love. Please try to not let it spoil your enjoyment of it. Focus on what you love and be kind to yourself. We're all pulling for you.

 

 

* = advice to anyone, male or female, who ever feels the need to worry for their safety like this: communicate your concerns to someone and communicate them in writing. Always leave a paper trail!

 

Thank you; you all are making me feel so much better. Thank you for all you say here, Lana-banana.

 

So are you advising I forward his email and my response to our program mentor, maybe for a start instead of going straight to the program director? Should I go ahead and do that now or just wait and see how he responds and/or how he acts at our next group meeting in January?

[Gary335]

Okay, so four guys so far have agreed that that email was creepy. Thank you for giving me a glimmer of hope that a) I just might not suck with men and b) my instinct is right. My instinct tells me he is a total creep who maybe, and hopefully, will act decently when he is in a group situation and has NO opportunity to push the envelope.

 

You don't suck with men, it has nothing to do with you. Always listen to your instinct.

 

 

I mean, that email! Good Lord, what person in their right mind sends that to anyone? That's what my gut says. It's inexcusable.

It's inexcusable to say the least!

 

So, I sent the email I proposed a few posts ago, and took off the line about having a great time. My hope is that now that he KNOWS I am not interested in him at all, he will fall back in line and act like a professional in our group. If he doesn't, then it's a good thing I have that email because I have something concrete to send to the program director if need be. Whether I do so or not will depend upon how he takes the news that he doesn't have a chance with me.

Don't put your safety in jeopardy. Get in touch with your program director if he doesn't stop. You need to do whatever you need to do.

 

And I am going to be very careful NEVER to have more than a drink or two at any future outings with this group. Nor will I ever allow myself to be one on one with him again.

Both are excellent ideas. i'd even go a little further and refrain from having more than a drink or two anytime your out with people you don't know, whether its a guy or a group of people.

 

So, this just leaves me with this exhausted, forlorn feeling that there just are not any truly decent guys out there. Guys--would you ever send a woman an email like this, thinking it's funny or cute or whatever? A woman you barely know, who seems fun and nice and you're interested in.

 

Sometimes I wonder if the fact that I am typically very open and animated and love to laugh sends the wrong idea to people who are maybe socially awkward and a little devious. I'm just SO OVER meeting creepy guys, in any context.

There are plenty of good guys out there! Like me with women, you just gotta get past the bad ones in order to get to the good ones! I have the same exhausted, forlorn feeling as you do, but I know sooner or later a decent girl will come along. The same goes for you. Decent guys will come along. Keep your head up!

 

Oh, and being open and animated, and laughing, are not bad things. Always be yourself.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Gary335

[insert_name]

I think the guy is getting a bit of a harsh deal here.

 

OP is certain nothing happened, so taking her at her word and moving on from there the guy has stopped her going to her car which is actually a commendable thing to do as it stopped her driving off in it and killing herself or multiple others. Taken her back to her hotel (bit dodgy but if OP is certain nothing had happened when she woke the following day...) and gave her a lift in the morning. If he was up to something then he has to be the worlds biggest idiot because he is basically incriminating himself with what he has written to her afterwards should OP wake up and feel like she has been sexually assaulted.

 

The things that stick out are telling the other woman to clear off so he can make a move, that imo is in very poor taste and the hand on the thigh...but if that is the extent of his 'in person' behaviour then to me he just seems to be lacking in a bit of class and decency, when push came to shove he made sure OP was okay.

 

In the email he comes off as socially awkward. I don't think guys understand that women can't joke about things that we take for granted. As an example I learned this myself on a date where I was chatting with a girl who seemed to have a really 'out there' sense of humour so I made a joke about how because we met online we both could really be axe murderers and then we both exaggerated who could be the best axe murderer and how etc. She ended up cutting the joke short like she thought I might be being serious even though she seemed like she was having a good time playing along! I was really surprised given the exaggerated nature of the conversation that she could have that reaction but then for me those sorts of dangers really aren't likely to affect me (touch wood!). As such I can quite well believe that email was naively trying to make light of such a situation without thinking offence would be taken.

 

So I think this guy is just lacking in social awareness. His heart seems to have been in the right place. A cordial response that you aren't looking to have any sort of intimate relationship would be best.

[GemmaUK]

Thank you; you all are making me feel so much better. Thank you for all you say here, Lana-banana.

 

So are you advising I forward his email and my response to our program mentor, maybe for a start instead of going straight to the program director? Should I go ahead and do that now or just wait and see how he responds and/or how he acts at our next group meeting in January?

 

Forward it now IMO and include the reply you sent.

Explain all that happened as well.

He could have done the same kind of things previously and if I were the mentor I wouldn't want a guy like that on my programme.

[Tayla]

Never be on the bus that is about to run a person's career to the ground.

 

Think about that.

 

I'd have an extremely brief sentence sent to him while copying the director of the program.

 

This gets you off the bus and allows the person fair time to 're-adjust .

[PrettyEmily77]

GC, you're not a difficult, uptight nag who is hopeless around men, men aren't all hopeless either, but this guy is a creep.

 

It almost doesn't matter how we feel here though, reading that email (I was creeped out, if that helps); you feel very uneasy about it and you are entitled to feel that way. That's that.

 

I would deal with it on my own first (ie without outside involvement for now) by sending a short, to the point reply - thanks for the email but I don't wish to take things beyond a professional level and trust you will respect my wishes from now on.

 

If he persists, take it further.

 

My .2

[Osmium13]

Forget the email... The thing I find disturbing is the bit about him telling someone to go elsewhere so he could kiss you, especially if he knew you'd been drinking. That's not "creepy", it's calculating and predatory.

[lana-banana]

Thank you; you all are making me feel so much better. Thank you for all you say here, Lana-banana.

 

So are you advising I forward his email and my response to our program mentor, maybe for a start instead of going straight to the program director? Should I go ahead and do that now or just wait and see how he responds and/or how he acts at our next group meeting in January?

 

Forward the email to the program director and include all the information you provided us, especially the part about how he wanted the other woman to leave so he could kiss you. (If someone said that about someone else I knew, even if she wasn't a close friend, I would have immediately grabbed her and gotten the hell out!) Don't provide commentary. Just explain what happened.

 

I get that it's just an email in poor taste. No doubt he thought it was really clever. But you are not responsible for telling a grown man why joking about drugging, kidnapping and assaulting a woman you're attracted to is not okay.

 

Chin up and best of luck going forward! <3

[Zapbasket]

Forget the email... The thing I find disturbing is the bit about him telling someone to go elsewhere so he could kiss you, especially if he knew you'd been drinking. That's not "creepy", it's calculating and predatory.

 

That's my feeling, too. Not only that, how disrespectful to the other woman from our group who came to the bar with us, as though she would want to twiddle her thumbs in the toilet so that he could make a move on me. Luckily she refused to leave her seat at the bar and I'm also glad she told me about this exchange with him.

[Zapbasket]

Forward the email to the program director and include all the information you provided us, especially the part about how he wanted the other woman to leave so he could kiss you. (If someone said that about someone else I knew, even if she wasn't a close friend, I would have immediately grabbed her and gotten the hell out!) Don't provide commentary. Just explain what happened.

 

Yeah, I was grateful that the other woman told him no, she was not going to leave her seat at the bar, and that she told me the next day all that transpired. I only wish she had insisted on being the one to take me to my hotel so as to have prevented an opportunity for the guy to be alone with me. It's what I'd have done, in her shoes--that, and yeah, if the situation were reversed, I'd have grabbed her and left the bar, too.

 

My mind is open to being changed but for now I think I'm going to wait and see what transpires after having sent my "not interested" email. If he sends me anything in response similar to that creepy sh*t he wrote earlier, it's all going to the program director. The problem is that this is not through a university, but an arts foundation, and so there's not an HR or other governing board that could intervene; it would all fall to the discretion of the program director. And since I only have to see him a few times a year for the next two years and I live several hundred miles away, I can deal with any mild awkwardness that might ensue from my having rejected him. But that said, I absolutely will not be one-on-one with him, and I won't let my drinking with this group exceed one or two glasses of wine or beer (which is usually all I drink anyway when I'm out; I was feeling "adventurous" at this event and though I don't know the people in my group well, I felt safe since we are in a program together).

 

I get that it's just an email in poor taste. No doubt he thought it was really clever. But you are not responsible for telling a grown man why joking about drugging, kidnapping and assaulting a woman you're attracted to is not okay.

 

Chin up and best of luck going forward! <3

 

Yeah, it just blows my mind how especially in this situation, and especially given he was feeling some need to clarify his reasoning behind taking me to my hotel and such, he would choose this...tasteless tack.

 

I'm starting to seriously doubt that grown men who behave as this guy did are "merely clueless." I think it's more typically a kind of narcissism, an "I want what I want when I want it" mentality, the dictates of the social situation or the feelings of the other person be damned.

[Zapbasket]

I think the guy is getting a bit of a harsh deal here.

 

OP is certain nothing happened, so taking her at her word and moving on from there the guy has stopped her going to her car which is actually a commendable thing to do as it stopped her driving off in it and killing herself or multiple others. Taken her back to her hotel (bit dodgy but if OP is certain nothing had happened when she woke the following day...) and gave her a lift in the morning. If he was up to something then he has to be the worlds biggest idiot because he is basically incriminating himself with what he has written to her afterwards should OP wake up and feel like she has been sexually assaulted.

 

The things that stick out are telling the other woman to clear off so he can make a move, that imo is in very poor taste and the hand on the thigh...but if that is the extent of his 'in person' behaviour then to me he just seems to be lacking in a bit of class and decency, when push came to shove he made sure OP was okay.

 

In the email he comes off as socially awkward. I don't think guys understand that women can't joke about things that we take for granted. As an example I learned this myself on a date where I was chatting with a girl who seemed to have a really 'out there' sense of humour so I made a joke about how because we met online we both could really be axe murderers and then we both exaggerated who could be the best axe murderer and how etc. She ended up cutting the joke short like she thought I might be being serious even though she seemed like she was having a good time playing along! I was really surprised given the exaggerated nature of the conversation that she could have that reaction but then for me those sorts of dangers really aren't likely to affect me (touch wood!). As such I can quite well believe that email was naively trying to make light of such a situation without thinking offence would be taken.

 

So I think this guy is just lacking in social awareness. His heart seems to have been in the right place. A cordial response that you aren't looking to have any sort of intimate relationship would be best.

 

Thanks for this perspective. It helps me hold back from vilifying him--but even taking what you say here into consideration, I don't think it's "social awareness" you need to keep you from asking a woman in a group you're with to make scarce so that you can make a move on a woman who is not out because she's with YOU, but because she's in a program with you. And it's certainly not "social awareness" you need to know you shouldn't put your hand on someone who is too drunk to get herself back to her own hotel room. It's DECENCY that's needed.

 

And I don't think your joking banter with the woman on the date falls into the same category as the email he sent to me. You and she were both sharing in the joke until it got to a point where she started to feel uncomfortable. And it sounds like that was only because you guys didn't actually know each other prior and it suddenly occurred to her that you actually COULD be an axe murderer. This guy sent me an email framing his taking me to a hotel as a kidnapping made possible by poisoning. I never shared in that joke; I was too inebriated to do anything but accept his offer to bring me to my hotel room. I was vulnerable and he joked about that vulnerability while having taken a tiny bit of advantage of the situation (his hand on my upper thigh, under my dress, at a time when it most certainly was clear that I was in no state to consent), and so his "joke" actually brushed a little bit on the truth.

 

Maybe the lesson for me here is that I'm just going to go with whether I feel comfortable or not, and respond accordingly. His behavior that evening and in his email creeped me out. I plainly told him that I am not interested. If he makes me uncomfortable again, I'm taking additional action. I'm just done making excuses for guys who have no standard of conduct, no awareness, no concern for others, or whatever combination of these things they exhibit.

[Gary335]

Thanks for this perspective. It helps me hold back from vilifying him--but even taking what you say here into consideration, I don't think it's "social awareness" you need to keep you from asking a woman in a group you're with to make scarce so that you can make a move on a woman who is not out because she's with YOU, but because she's in a program with you. And it's certainly not "social awareness" you need to know you shouldn't put your hand on someone who is too drunk to get herself back to her own hotel room. It's DECENCY that's needed.

 

THIS. You are 100% right. It's a matter of common sense and decency, not social awareness. Well said.

 

 

Maybe the lesson for me here is that I'm just going to go with whether I feel comfortable or not, and respond accordingly. His behavior that evening and in his email creeped me out. I plainly told him that I am not interested. If he makes me uncomfortable again, I'm taking additional action. I'm just done making excuses for guys who have no standard of conduct, no awareness, no concern for others, or whatever combination of these things they exhibit.

 

Good for you! Glad to see you take this attitude! Don't make excuses, because there are no excuses for creepy behavior.

[Zapbasket]

THIS. You are 100% right. It's a matter of common sense and decency, not social awareness. Well said.

 

Good for you! Glad to see you take this attitude! Don't make excuses, because there are no excuses for creepy behavior.

 

Thanks, everyone, for your support with this. I feel good that I matter-of-factly set him straight, with no apologies and no trying to be "nice" about it. Hopefully this is the end of it with this guy.

 

Gary335, maybe this situation of mine sheds light on what I was telling you regarding your situation, on your thread. It's a very rare thing indeed, at least in my experience, when a guy takes a genuine interest in you, over and above what you might be to him (girlfriend, etc.). I have so often felt that guys are more interested in "winning" me than actually getting to know me, and then, if they did "win" me, they're more interested in my conformity to whatever pedestal-image of me they've cultivated than in my unfolding to them as who I authentically am.

 

It's sad. I'd really love to have a male friend right now, who might harbor some interest in me, but who's really more about us getting to know each other and do fun things together than winning me as his girlfriend. It would even be nice to be wooed. Do men even do that anymore? It seems more that they think if you are nice to them, it must indicate some romantic interest, and then they mess up what could be a good thing because they feel entitled to your romantic attentions--often without offering any semblance of a commitment in return.

 

It's like this guy. He put himself first. He didn't consider the social mores of the program we're in; he didn't consider the other woman who was with us; he didn't consider my vulnerability in being inebriated and alone with him; and he didn't consider that through all of this I wasn't there for HIM, but for our group. What he also didn't bother to find out yet is that I'm scary talented in the kind of work we're there to do and for that and so many other reasons, he'd never have a legitimate chance with me, either as someone I'd consider a true colleague, and certainly not as a boyfriend or whatever twisted horny whatever he was after.

 

Not saying this by way of advice to you. Just by way of explaining where I was coming from in the advice I did give to you on your thread.

Edited October 31, 2016 by GreenCove

[Zapbasket]

Depends on what you mean by innocently.

 

Some people are psychopaths and will send an email like that in a deliberate effort to provoke you or try to manipulate you, or to prod you for vulnerability and see if they can take more advantage and so on.

 

Some people are just inappropriate and they might be narcissistic as well and get their panties in a big bunch if you don't find them as funny and charming as they think they are. They fully expect you to be really into them and that is why they wouldn't think you would react badly to jokes about being poisoned and abducted basically, maybe you will find it hot because you find them hot because they are hot (how they think).

 

Some people are just very socially clueless and even though they mean well, they will fumble big time and come across as super creepy because a combination of poor perception and anxiety and general awkwardness causes their brain to just spew out a bunch of weirdness when they feel pressured such as when trying to flirt with someone they find attractive. Then if they realize how creepy they were they would feel mortified.

 

That is why a plain and straightforward response is best as it covers all of these possibilities without inflaming the situation on the other side.

 

Quoted because this is a great description of where someone who acts creepy could possibly be coming from, and because this is great advice. I expect I will refer to this in the future and hopefully others will find it helpful, as well.

[Miss Clavel]

[]

I'm in a program for professionals in the arts that I'm doing long-distance, but every few months our small group gets together with a coach to socialize, do workshops, share our work, etc.

 

A few weeks ago I traveled to do a social outing with this group. Four of the six of us were there, with our coach. We went to dinner, and then three of us--me, another woman, and a man--went to an adjacent bar for some drinks. I ended up drinking too much, and while I insisted I could just sleep it off in the back of my car, the guy insisted on taking me back to my hotel and picking me up in the morning to take me to my car so that I could get to my one-on-one appointment with our coach.

 

He didn't do anything inappropriate; I do remember his hand on my thigh at one point, but nothing untoward happened save for that, I am certain. I certainly was not "putting out," as I am not even remotely attracted to him.

 

The next morning the other woman who joined us for drinks told me that while I was in the restroom the previous night, he asked her to go hide out in the bathroom when I came back, so that he could kiss me.

 

Yesterday I received this email from him:

 

 

 

I am totally creeped out. First of all, that he thought he should try to kiss me; second, that he even ventured to put his hand on my bare thigh when it was obvious I was too inebriated to give consent to anything; third, that in an email where he's checking in about the events of that night, he "jokes," if that is what it is, about taking me anywhere "against my will" and "poisoning" me. Also, I should add that the subject of his email was, "Tied up and taken away."

 

How do I right this unfortunate situation so that I can interact non-eventfully with him as is required by this two-year program we're in, but also let him know that I am 100% absolutely NOT interested in anything else, ever. I just feel really grossed out by his email; I think it's really inappropriate and while he might have been trying to be cute or clever or funny, I think that's not something to joke about with any woman, ever.

 

And yes, I know it was my "fault" that I had too much to drink and ended up in a situation that leaves an opening for mixed messages, but I am positive I never came onto him in any way because I am that disinterested. And for the record, I don't drink often and certainly never let myself get so drunk; the cocktails we had were particularly potent and it came on me all of a sudden. I will take care that this does not happen again.

 

I just feel so grossed out, and I think what is really getting me is that this is yet another guy who can't even be basically DECENT? I mean, isn't it obvious that if I was too inebriated to get myself safely back to my hotel, then it's completely inappropriate to even mildly take advantage of the situation? And then that email???

 

I mean, are there any basically nice, decent men out there?

 

to me, he sounds charming. he want to get to know you. he didn't do anything wrong, did he? he wanted to kiss you. he could have done just about anything he wanted to do once he had you alone. and he didn't. he made sure you did not sleep in your car.

 

he says that judging by your speech he did not realize that by ordering a second round? you'd already been poisoned?

 

it might sound harsh, but i think if you drink to the point of not remembering, its a black out. sort that out.

 

you are making a way bigger deal out of this then it needs to be.

 

he likes you, he wanted to kiss you, hell he coulda raped you in the car or in the alley near the car or in your room and he didn't.

 

he somewhat clumsily tried to arrange to kiss you.

 

and if my oldest read this she'd be screaming at me, "predator" "rape-culture".

 

all i have to go on, for my comments is my take on what you say happened.

 

since you feel like he's not "decent" and he's "creepy" then stay away from him. but...since he didn't leave you to sleep it off in your car. in front of your colleagues, and some of this is your fault, who knows what you said to him, why not let it go?

 

just keep an ear out and see if this is a pattern with him, if you find out it is, then take action.

[Zapbasket]

to me, he sounds charming. he want to get to know you. he didn't do anything wrong, did he? he wanted to kiss you. he could have done just about anything he wanted to do once he had you alone. and he didn't. he made sure you did not sleep in your car.

 

he says that judging by your speech he did not realize that by ordering a second round? you'd already been poisoned?

 

it might sound harsh, but i think if you drink to the point of not remembering, its a black out. sort that out.

 

you are making a way bigger deal out of this then it needs to be.

 

he likes you, he wanted to kiss you, hell he coulda raped you in the car or in the alley near the car or in your room and he didn't.

 

he somewhat clumsily tried to arrange to kiss you.

 

and if my oldest read this she'd be screaming at me, "predator" "rape-culture".

 

all i have to go on, for my comments is my take on what you say happened.

 

since you feel like he's not "decent" and he's "creepy" then stay away from him. but...since he didn't leave you to sleep it off in your car. in front of your colleagues, and some of this is your fault, who knows what you said to him, why not let it go?

 

just keep an ear out and see if this is a pattern with him, if you find out it is, then take action.

 

Oh my God. "Charming." Okay. Well, as they say, "Different strokes for different folks."

 

First of all, we weren't on a date. Did you get that part? That we were out with a group? That there was another woman with us whom he asked to go cool her heels in the toilet while he made a move on me?

 

And on what sad planet does "getting to know a person" entail jabbing your tongue in their mouth on first meeting?

 

Yes, I was inebriated. No, I did not black out. I remember the evening. I remember in my hotel room being quick to get my shoes off and get under the covers (in my dress) while he was in the bathroom so as to make clear that all I wanted was to sleep. I am certain I did not say anything suggestive to him. Indeed I should find him extraordinary for not taking advantage of me. the hand under my dress on my upper thigh? Nah, can't blame him, right? Of course: he's a man; he has to get a pass for copping a feel; what man wouldn't?[]

 

Jesus. And you have daughters? I'm sorry, but can we stop telling each other "it's not a big deal" around this stuff? His behavior made me uncomfortable. I didn't find him charming at all and I thought his email was really ill-advised and showed a complete lack of awareness of how I might feel. I don't need to justify or explain my discomfort; it's enough that I felt uncomfortable.

 

But I'm happy to pass on his contact info to you since perhaps you'd hit it off, you finding this kind of behavior so "charming" and all.

Edited November 1, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[insert_name]

to me, he sounds charming. he want to get to know you. he didn't do anything wrong, did he? he wanted to kiss you. he could have done just about anything he wanted to do once he had you alone. and he didn't. he made sure you did not sleep in your car.

 

he says that judging by your speech he did not realize that by ordering a second round? you'd already been poisoned?

 

it might sound harsh, but i think if you drink to the point of not remembering, its a black out. sort that out.

 

you are making a way bigger deal out of this then it needs to be.

 

he likes you, he wanted to kiss you, hell he coulda raped you in the car or in the alley near the car or in your room and he didn't.

 

he somewhat clumsily tried to arrange to kiss you.

 

and if my oldest read this she'd be screaming at me, "predator" "rape-culture".

 

all i have to go on, for my comments is my take on what you say happened.

 

since you feel like he's not "decent" and he's "creepy" then stay away from him. but...since he didn't leave you to sleep it off in your car. in front of your colleagues, and some of this is your fault, who knows what you said to him, why not let it go?

 

just keep an ear out and see if this is a pattern with him, if you find out it is, then take action.

 

I wouldn't say he was charming, but I agree with a lot of what else you say and I am glad I am not the only one who sees it this way.

 

That is exactly my take on it, based on what the OP says happened it seems like a bit of an over-reaction and a lot of black and white, reactionary thinking applied to a situation where the biggest crime was trying to arrange some alone time and a hand on a thigh.when he was in a position to do a hell of a lot worse if he really was a bad person or a potential rapist.

 

The guy should not get credit for making sure the OP was okay, but it is a very important detail that people seem to be overlooking as it gives some indication of his intentions. He could have just walked off and left her and you can bet your bottom dollar if something happened to OP after he said goodbye everyone would be pointing the finger at him for leaving her in a vulnerable state! That is just how the world seems to work these days.

[Nowty V]

I don't see how he could have had the opportunity given the other woman was there, interacting with him the whole time even when I stepped away to use the restroom.

 

OK so I'm a 'Threat Motivated Introvert/HSP', I'm often classified 'paranoid' by people but that is not the whole story and is not the case. I do not seek to instil fear merely to illustrate the potentials in the situation you describe.

 

Being Introvert I look deeper at situations than is often necessary and being threat motivated I look for the sky falling in.

 

1. GHB is a colourless liquid freely available. I don't know the dose but it is easily and quickly administered so I have read.

 

2. You left your drink unattended.

 

3. The other woman could have dosed you or been distracted sufficiently for another to dose you.

 

4. He could have dosed you.

 

How did he get in your room with his hand on your bare thigh?

 

How was your hangover the next day?

 

Too many things in this situation have potential. I would suggest you read up on hyper awareness/ hyper vigilance and begin practising the techniques to safeguard your well being in social situations in the future.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Nowty V

[Zapbasket]

I wouldn't say he was charming, but I agree with a lot of what else you say and I am glad I am not the only one who sees it this way.

 

That is exactly my take on it, based on what the OP says happened it seems like a bit of an over-reaction and a lot of black and white, reactionary thinking applied to a situation where the biggest crime was trying to arrange some alone time and a hand on a thigh.when he was in a position to do a hell of a lot worse if he really was a bad person or a potential rapist.

 

The guy should not get credit for making sure the OP was okay, but it is a very important detail that people seem to be overlooking as it gives some indication of his intentions. He could have just walked off and left her and you can bet your bottom dollar if something happened to OP after he said goodbye everyone would be pointing the finger at him for leaving her in a vulnerable state! That is just how the world seems to work these days.

 

I really appreciated your earlier perspective, but now I feel like you're taking it too far. Isn't it simply the DECENT thing to do to make sure someone you are with who has had too much to drink gets home safely? Isn't it simply also BASIC DECENCY to not so much as be sexually suggestive with any person who is heavily under the influence, or to touch them in a suggestive way? Isn't it just pretty basic to expect that someone who emails you to check in two weeks after the evening in question not make references, even in jest and particularly given the circumstances, to tying up and abducting me?

 

It feels like you're telling me I shouldn't feel uncomfortable. I have very good instincts and I'm telling you that the way he acted, I felt rather uncomfortable. I also wanted to be sure to communicate, in as measured but clear a way as possible, that I was NOT interested in anything with him other than participating in our program.

 

By the way, he made the other woman we were with uncomfortable, as well, which was why she told me what happened at the bar while I was in the restroom. But that's irrelevant. It is enough that I didn't feel comfortable.

 

What kind of standard to we have these days that a man is some great guy for not either leaving someone who is compromised to their own devices or taking advantage of a woman at any opportunity that presents itself? It's depressing.

[insert_name]

Oh my God. "Charming." Okay. Well, as they say, "Different strokes for different folks."

 

First of all, we weren't on a date. Did you get that part? That we were out with a group? That there was another woman with us whom he asked to go cool her heels in the toilet while he made a move on me?

 

And on what sad planet does "getting to know a person" entail jabbing your tongue in their mouth on first meeting?

 

Yes, I was inebriated. No, I did not black out. I remember the evening. I remember in my hotel room being quick to get my shoes off and get under the covers (in my dress) while he was in the bathroom so as to make clear that all I wanted was to sleep. I am certain I did not say anything suggestive to him. Indeed I should find him extraordinary for not taking advantage of me. the hand under my dress on my upper thigh? Nah, can't blame him, right? Of course: he's a man; he has to get a pass for copping a feel; what man wouldn't? []

 

Jesus. And you have daughters? I'm sorry, but can we stop telling each other "it's not a big deal" around this stuff? His behavior made me uncomfortable. I didn't find him charming at all and I thought his email was really ill-advised and showed a complete lack of awareness of how I might feel. I don't need to justify or explain my discomfort; it's enough that I felt uncomfortable.

 

But I'm happy to pass on his contact info to you since perhaps you'd hit it off, you finding this kind of behavior so "charming" and all.

 

With respect OP, it is exactly this sort of exaggerated, emotional reaction that really doesn't help when trying to discuss issues like this. It really isn't black or white []

 

We are ascribing bad motives to someone whose intentions don't appear to be clear. He made sure you were safe and I think that bit is quite important to remember while we are chewing him out about his conduct.

 

I shall say no more now. You seem to be okay, unhurt and that is the main thing.

Edited November 1, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Language in quote and post

[Zapbasket]

But I didn't chew him out. I vented here about how skeeved out I was by his email and then what I said to him amounted to a "Thanks, and to be clear I am not interested in any way other than that we are in a program together."

 

He made sure I was safe, yes, but by his behavior and email it felt like there were strings he hoped would come attached with that. That's what made me most uncomfortable. Frankly, for that reason I actually wish he'd made sure I was locked in the back seat of my car to sleep it off. We were in a safe neighborhood and as I'd told him, I frequently sleep in the back of my car when I'm traveling. I knew I had no business driving and I even at that point in the evening I was uncomfortable enough around him that I didn't want to feel "beholden" to him for taking me to my hotel.

Edited November 1, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Redact full quote of immediately preceding post

[Zapbasket]

OK so I'm a 'Threat Motivated Introvert/HSP', I'm often classified 'paranoid' by people but that is not the whole story and is not the case. I do not seek to instil fear merely to illustrate the potentials in the situation you describe.

 

Being Introvert I look deeper at situations than is often necessary and being threat motivated I look for the sky falling in.

 

1. GHB is a colourless liquid freely available. I don't know the dose but it is easily and quickly administered so I have read.

 

2. You left your drink unattended.

 

3. The other woman could have dosed you or been distracted sufficiently for another to dose you.

 

4. He could have dosed you.

 

How did he get in your room with his hand on your bare thigh?

 

How was your hangover the next day?

 

Too many things in this situation have potential. I would suggest you read up on hyper awareness/ hyper vigilance and begin practising the techniques to safeguard your well being in social situations in the future.

 

I had an all-day workshop the next day and though I didn't feel awesome, I was functional.

 

It's extremely uncommon for me to get so drunk. Tipsy, yes, but usually I time it with a meal so that by the time we're settling the bill I'm okay. It was strange that night because I went from being fine to, at some point into the second drink at that bar, being very not-fine. Even so, I do think it was because it was a bourbon-based cocktail and perhaps I need to add Bourbon to Tequila as liquors that just don't agree with me. I don't think he slipped anything in my drink and I am quite positive the other woman did not.