Sucks being the average guy, right?

[Blanco]

My contribution to this thread: I see average guys with attractive women almost every day. Heck, I can't tell you how many pictures my best friend and I have texted each other over the years of a goony looking dude with a cute/hot/beautiful girlfriend/fiance/wife.

[j_flow]

The good news is, it's fixable, but not while you bang the drum of your victimhood.

 

I certainly was far more optimistic walking into this months ago than I am now. I think you can understand how hard it is to break the negative feedback cycle of "people don't like victims" and "I've been trying my ass off and failed, that must mean I'm not worth what I feel I am". Any suggestions for breaking free of that mindset other than meditation? I'd like to avoid any Buddhistic "let go of your desires" because honestly it's scientifically proven you need sex and to be needed emotionally to be healthy.

[NJ123]

Can't be sure from your wording, but it sounded to me like you were not taking women out on proper dates but were just trying to sleep with them without treating them like humans first and taking time to date and get to know them a little. Not many women get attached to that. Why not try to just think about going out on dates where you pick the woman up and take her somewhere you can afford and just talk and find out who she is before thinking about sex. I'm not saying anything wrong with getting laid once in awhile but I think you may be in a rut from having that early success of only doing that and need to change your habits to find a real relationship. Good luck.

 

Average guys do just fine usually, as long as they date average women. I got a whiff that maybe you are trying to date above your attraction level. That will never bring you a balanced and genuine mutual relationship.

 

The thing is what's actually considered average for a woman? How do you deem someone average compared to attractive since there's quite a bit of times where someone thinks some people are really attractive while others don't see it much.

[Blanco]

Well, when I'm at work, 99% of the women I interact with are always really nice to me so I guess no one senses when I'm in a bad mood. The problem is, the advice I've been given on this forum is that I have to improve in different areas such as getting a better job, going back to school etc, to have a chance. I get that, but it still doesn't leave me any less frustrated that I can't have what I wish I did. It stings a lot when I constantly see guys around me with women I find really attractive. I'm just the outsider looking in always.

 

So? You act like you're the only one who desires things in his life. I'd bet everyone on this forum has something they'd like in their life, but don't have. Do something about it.

[Blanco]

Any suggestions for breaking free of that mindset other than meditation? I'd like to avoid any Buddhistic "let go of your desires" because honestly it's scientifically proven you need sex and to be needed emotionally to be healthy.

 

lol wut?

 

Those things are important, but you're not gonna keel over and die or develop all sorts of health issues if you aren't getting laid and no one is texting you "night, babe."

[preraph]

My contribution to this thread: I see average guys with attractive women almost every day. Heck, I can't tell you how many pictures my best friend and I have texted each other over the years of a goony looking dude with a cute/hot/beautiful girlfriend/fiance/wife.

 

Yes, but there's some tradeoff if you get close enough to notice. A guy I used to work with was obnoxious and always saying awful things and then "just kidding," and he inexplicably had a local model for a girlfriend. I spent some time with them and discovered she was the most boring individual on the face of the earth. She just had no intellect and we could only find cosmetics to talk about. She was sweet, but dumb as a box of rocks. He didn't even marry her after a decade of dating her, and a time or two he even alluded to her limited abilities to have a conversation.

 

A lot of plain guys who get someone good looking, there's something off about them, trashy or just want their money or something. But I will say women are more forgiving about looks than men are, so there are some happy mismatches.

 

As others have said, a good attitude and just being a person who makes the best of things will give you your best shot at attracting someone.

[j_flow]

Can't be sure from your wording, but it sounded to me like you were not taking women out on proper dates but were just trying to sleep with them without treating them like humans first and taking time to date and get to know them a little. Not many women get attached to that. Why not try to just think about going out on dates where you pick the woman up and take her somewhere you can afford and just talk and find out who she is before thinking about sex. I'm not saying anything wrong with getting laid once in awhile but I think you may be in a rut from having that early success of only doing that and need to change your habits to find a real relationship. Good luck.

 

Average guys do just fine usually, as long as they date average women. I got a whiff that maybe you are trying to date above your attraction level. That will never bring you a balanced and genuine mutual relationship.

 

HA, no man. In regards to standards I've been dating average build to obese women. I always ask myself "do I hate talking to you?" over "can I stand looking at you?"

 

For the dates, in the beginning I did breakfast, lunch, or some sort of walk in nature (beach front, trails, etc). Often food would be at a "hipster but damn cheap" place; think fancy poutine, a breakfast and beer place, etc. I should mention I never paid for her meal because I figure if that would be what kept her I'm not interested anyhow. Now I've been doing far more casual coffee dates to try to gage interest first. Given, I haven't gotten a date in two months.

[preraph]

The thing is what's actually considered average for a woman? How do you deem someone average compared to attractive since there's quite a bit of times where someone thinks some people are really attractive while others don't see it much.

 

I find that most men mean just about the same thing when they think attractive: thin, long hair, better than average boobs, and young.

 

I think some women are more flexible on the looks thing and I think it's because centuries of being subservient left its mark and makes some women gravitate to power and money. Men rarely ever gravitate to power and money in a woman. It's a vestigial trait in some women, I think, and for good reason. As late as my mother's generation, you married whoever you could get so someone could provide for you. I'm so glad that changed with my generation. It wasn't a good life for a lot of women from the 1950 and '60s on back. It was they were stuck doing what they had to do, still, after centuries of it.

[j_flow]

lol wut?

 

Those things are important, but you're not gonna keel over and die or develop all sorts of health issues if you aren't getting laid and no one is texting you "night, babe."

 

You will lose your sense of fitting in and your mental health will go to ****. Usually leads to depression and suicide. But I think I might be arguing this with someone who's not interested in listening

[preraph]

lol wut?

 

Those things are important, but you're not gonna keel over and die or develop all sorts of health issues if you aren't getting laid and no one is texting you "night, babe."

 

I can testify to that. Plus let's not forget, you don't actually need someone else to have sex with and keep from exploding from being sexually pent up. In fact, you don't even really have to do it yourself. Wait long enough and your body will just go off when it reaches critical mass. Sex is a luxury.

[Blanco]

Yes, but there's some tradeoff if you get close enough to notice. A guy I used to work with was obnoxious and always saying awful things and then "just kidding," and he inexplicably had a local model for a girlfriend. I spent some time with them and discovered she was the most boring individual on the face of the earth. She just had no intellect and we could only find cosmetics to talk about. She was sweet, but dumb as a box of rocks. He didn't even marry her after a decade of dating her, and a time or two he even alluded to her limited abilities to have a conversation.

 

A lot of plain guys who get someone good looking, there's something off about them, trashy or just want their money or something. But I will say women are more forgiving about looks than men are, so there are some happy mismatches.

 

As others have said, a good attitude and just being a person who makes the best of things will give you your best shot at attracting someone.

 

No doubt about that. Truthfully, I've found a lot of the beautiful/hot women to be mostly vapid, if not mostly uninteresting. Cute/pretty seems to be the sweet spot in terms of getting someone who usually comes equipped with a personality that won't make your eyes glaze over.

[Buddhist]

The problem is, the advice I've been given on this forum is that I have to improve in different areas such as getting a better job, going back to school etc, to have a chance. I get that, but it still doesn't leave me any less frustrated that I can't have what I wish I did. It stings a lot when I constantly see guys around me with women I find really attractive. I'm just the outsider looking in always.

 

The people on this forum are giving the best advice they can to a stranger they have never met. The thing is, life tends to conform to your beliefs about it. You can call this woo if you like but it's a truth that keeps proving itself to me over and over as the years pass. Perhaps the logical explanation for that is when we believe something we tend to only see the evidence of that belief and overlook the contrary evidence. Human observation is known to be biased and nowhere is it more so than when we are out to prove our own beliefs.

 

If you keep telling the story of being on the outside, you will always be there. That much I can assure you. Mostly because you will continue to believe that mysterious forces outside of you are victimising you and keeping you apart from your own desire. In focusing on that you will miss all the opportunities where the opposite would occur.

 

I've had extreme highs and extreme lows in my life and in reflection I can absolutely say those lows were preceded by periods of practising negative beliefs and feeling like a victim in life. I don't recommend that path because I know where it leads. Nowhere good and those periods will last for as long as you continue to practise that mindset, you're whole life, if that's what you choose to do.

 

I've been reading your posts for a long time and no matter the thread the story is always exactly the same. It's the story of where you presently are and how you cannot get anywhere else and a bunch of justifications for why you are stuck there. People offer alternate points of view and you justify why yours is the right one. You can be right, or you can be happy. But with the way you think, you won't be both anytime soon.

 

I hope you figure this out for yourself soon, it seems a waste of time to endlessly stay where you are.

[preraph]

No doubt about that. Truthfully, I've found a lot of the beautiful/hot women to be mostly vapid, if not mostly uninteresting. Cute/pretty seems to be the sweet spot in terms of getting someone who usually comes equipped with a personality that won't make your eyes glaze over.

 

Honestly, I think that's true with guys, too. I always fished the "exotic" pool, not classically good looking or popular but something creative in their presentation and I do like a pretty face, too, and hair.

[NJ123]

I find that most men mean just about the same thing when they think attractive: thin, long hair, better than average boobs, and young.

 

I think some women are more flexible on the looks thing and I think it's because centuries of being subservient left its mark and makes some women gravitate to power and money. Men rarely ever gravitate to power and money in a woman. It's a vestigial trait in some women, I think, and for good reason. As late as my mother's generation, you married whoever you could get so someone could provide for you. I'm so glad that changed with my generation. It wasn't a good life for a lot of women from the 1950 and '60s on back. It was they were stuck doing what they had to do, still, after centuries of it.

 

That's not me at all. I honestly don't like women that are too thin. I prefer average, fit or curvy women. I also find many women with shorter hair to be really attractive if they have a face I find attractive. The other day at work I had to help some woman that was probably in her early 40s with short hair that I thought was really attractive. I can find women with average boobs to be better than average as well. And I find myself finding many women that are in their mid 30s to late 40s to be very attractive too. So maybe I'm an exception where as long as the woman isn't too thin or overweight I can potentially find them really attractive. I'm nowhere as picky as people on this site seem to think I am.

[Blanco]

You will lose your sense of fitting in and your mental health will go to ****. Usually leads to depression and suicide. But I think I might be arguing this with someone who's not interested in listening

 

We aren't arguing, and I'm open to listening, but I'm certainly going to push back on questionable comments.

 

Full disclosure: Many years ago, after losing a relationship with someone I envisioned one day marrying, I did not date for a long time. As in "years." I've never been big on one-night stands, either, so guess what those things combined meant? That's right. I didn't sleep with anyone for a good two years plus after that breakup.

 

And you know what? I never wanted to kill myself. I didn't struggle to fit in. If anything, I became more of a people person because I was actively seeking people and activities that weren't involving dating.

 

I would go through periods of melancholy, but it wasn't because I wasn't getting laid. And it wasn't because I wasn't emotionally needed by someone. I was down about my breakup and a post-college life where I lacked direction and purpose.

 

So, sorry, but I don't agree at all. At best, it's a blanket statement that doesn't apply to everyone.

[NJ123]

You will lose your sense of fitting in and your mental health will go to ****. Usually leads to depression and suicide. But I think I might be arguing this with someone who's not interested in listening

 

This is completely true. I admittedly have depression, but it's for many other reasons, but never having a relationship definitely doesn't make it better in any way.

[j_flow]

I would go through periods of melancholy, but it wasn't because I wasn't getting laid. And it wasn't because I wasn't emotionally needed by someone. I was down about my breakup and a post-college life where I lacked direction and purpose.

 

Wow, that struck a chord. I've been out of college for about a year now and that's something I've been hearing from a lot of my friends recently, regardless of their dating status. I've been feeling it too. There's some existential crisis that comes with being done college and working full time. I never looked at it like I could be covering up other issues with some false belief that I need romance.

[NJ123]

The people on this forum are giving the best advice they can to a stranger they have never met. The thing is, life tends to conform to your beliefs about it. You can call this woo if you like but it's a truth that keeps proving itself to me over and over as the years pass. Perhaps the logical explanation for that is when we believe something we tend to only see the evidence of that belief and overlook the contrary evidence. Human observation is known to be biased and nowhere is it more so than when we are out to prove our own beliefs.

 

If you keep telling the story of being on the outside, you will always be there. That much I can assure you. Mostly because you will continue to believe that mysterious forces outside of you are victimising you and keeping you apart from your own desire. In focusing on that you will miss all the opportunities where the opposite would occur.

 

I've had extreme highs and extreme lows in my life and in reflection I can absolutely say those lows were preceded by periods of practising negative beliefs and feeling like a victim in life. I don't recommend that path because I know where it leads. Nowhere good and those periods will last for as long as you continue to practise that mindset, you're whole life, if that's what you choose to do.

 

I've been reading your posts for a long time and no matter the thread the story is always exactly the same. It's the story of where you presently are and how you cannot get anywhere else and a bunch of justifications for why you are stuck there. People offer alternate points of view and you justify why yours is the right one. You can be right, or you can be happy. But with the way you think, you won't be both anytime soon.

 

I hope you figure this out for yourself soon, it seems a waste of time to endlessly stay where you are.

 

There's a few things beyond my control at the moment that don't allow me to have what I want or it at least would be a severe struggle. Everyone keeps thinking they're excuses but if you were living as me they wouldn't be if you knew what I was dealing with. If online dating isn't going to work for me though where can I meet women where I won't have to basically randomly approach them?

[Blanco]

Wow, that struck a chord. I've been out of college for about a year now and that's something I've been hearing from a lot of my friends recently, regardless of their dating status. I've been feeling it too. There's some existential crisis that comes with being done college and working full time. I never looked at it like I could be covering up other issues with some false belief that I need romance.

 

I don't meditate or anything like that, but I have made a point as I've gotten older to do more thinking and have more introspection, not just about where I've been or where I might be going, but about where I am right now in that moment.

 

I'm definitely a relationship guy. I enjoy having a partner, generally, because I have never made a habit of being in a relationship for the sake of having a girlfriend. So when I'm in, it's because I believe in that person and believe in that relationship. It's a wonderful feeling.

 

Still, I know that's not all there is to life. People come and go. Things change. And yes, unfortunately, that can include those closest to us. So while I still have hopes of meeting someone again that I want to build a shared life with, I have stayed mindful in recent years that genuine happiness and fulfillment has to come from within. And for me, that means doing things I am passionate about, whether it's working on a project, weight training, or spending time with loved ones. Day to day, those are the things that fuel me and keep me going.

 

I've been single now for nearly two years. It's been a bumpy ride with some real dark stretches. Having the hindsight, I wouldn't trade it for a smoother ride. I've learned to enjoy my own company and find things in life that bring me happiness that aren't dependent on having a girlfriend. Perhaps best of all, I've developed an ability to dissect most of my moods and emotions and pinpoint the real reason I'm feeling a certain way. You'd be surprised how often the true source of our anguish is not what we think it is.

[Blanco]

There's a few things beyond my control at the moment that don't allow me to have what I want or it at least would be a severe struggle. Everyone keeps thinking they're excuses but if you were living as me they wouldn't be if you knew what I was dealing with. If online dating isn't going to work for me though where can I meet women where I won't have to basically randomly approach them?

 

Everyone is going through something. Everyone. Don't ever forget that.

 

I suggest perhaps you read some of Buddhist's other threads. You'll see that the advice she's providing isn't coming from a source of ignorance or inexperience.

[j_flow]

Still, I know that's not all there is to life. People come and go. Things change. And yes, unfortunately, that can include those closest to us. So while I still have hopes of meeting someone again that I want to build a shared life with, I have stayed mindful in recent years that genuine happiness and fulfillment has to come from within. And for me, that means doing things I am passionate about, whether it's working on a project, weight training, or spending time with loved ones. Day to day, those are the things that fuel me and keep me going.

 

This whole post was just genius. I feel like we're very similar and that I'm just starting down the same path that you've been on for awhile. I would totally agree that true happiness needs to "come from within" and that I need to do the things that make me passionate. How have you come to terms with accepting that maybe what fuels you alone isn't what will bring you close to being in a relationship again? I mean for you it's been two years; this must have been a thought that came up. Can you give some more examples of misplaced anguish? I am totally fascinated.

[planning4later]

Women are not a worthwhile pursuit.

 

I did NOT say women don't have worth. They do. All humans do. But the pursuit of them is not worthwhile and will not add anything to your life.

[j_flow]

Women are not a worthwhile pursuit.

 

I did NOT say women don't have worth. They do. All humans do. But the pursuit of them is not worthwhile and will not add anything to your life.

 

But then how do you get romance without pursuing it? This is like a koan. "You must be what romance pursues, not what pursues romance."

 

So what does romance pursue?

[Blanco]

This whole post was just genius. I feel like we're very similar and that I'm just starting down the same path that you've been on for awhile. I would totally agree that true happiness needs to "come from within" and that I need to do the things that make me passionate. How have you come to terms with accepting that maybe what fuels you alone isn't what will bring you close to being in a relationship again? I mean for you it's been two years; this must have been a thought that came up.

 

Thanks.

 

I suppose I don't sweat the relationship thing as much as I used to for a few reasons.

 

The top one being, I still don't feel like I'm in a place with myself where I would be all that great in a relationship. By that, I mean, I've spent most of the last two years working to improve myself in a lot of ways, but there's still some things I want to take care of before I even really open myself up to dating again. I'm aware that we are never the finished product and that self-improvement need not stop just because you get coupled up. Still, I think it would be irresponsible of me to focus on dating or seeking a relationship when I, for instance, still am correcting some financial issues caused by several years of poor choices on my part.

 

Another thing that's caused me to stop sweating the relationship stuff so much is that I'm surrounded by so few examples of quality relationships. I see a lot of relationships that exist out issues such as comfort or desperation. There are quality relationships and quality people out there, but it's hard to feel like I'm really missing out sometimes when I see so many unhealthy, shoddy relationships. This, of course, is not to say that I wouldn't entertain developing something with someone I felt was worthwhile. I'm just in no rush to find stopgaps until that person comes along.

 

The way I see it, I'm getting myself into a position where I'm more at peace with myself and more marketable/enticing to potential partners. In the meantime, I'm just enjoying the journey along with the non-romantic things in life that add value to my day.

[Blanco]

Can you give some more examples of misplaced anguish? I am totally fascinated.

 

Sure. There are times when I find myself thinking I miss my ex; times when I feel anger toward her and her current relationship.

 

But when I stop and decode those thoughts a bit more, the root of the issue is almost always that what I'm really missing are her two children who I came to love as my own during the relationship. By choice, I have not seen them in nearly a year and a half. She got involved with someone almost right after I ended things, so I felt it was inappropriate to remain in their lives when there was potentially a long-term father figure in the picture.

 

So it's not really her I miss. It's the kids. On the surface, I might think I miss her simply because she's so intertwined with them.

 

It's not really her current relationship I'm angry or jealous about. I'm angry because I miss the kids and I subconsciously likely view her relationship as the thing that led to me exiting their lives; the thing that would likely keep me from ever again being part of their lives.

 

This is why it's so important to really feel what you're feeling, but also ask "why?" as you peel back the layers until you hit the core. With introspection, I know that it's not really her I miss nor am I angry about her relationship. I miss her children every day, but I know they are well cared for and have a stable male presence in their lives. And that's what really matters.